Apply smp? Or diy?

[EWO]

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This question has been asked before my many people but I feel my situation is different/dire.

I posted my stats before but will do it again:

I have 172.5 credit hours according to AMCAS gpa calculator
85 of those are BCPM
I have science gpa of 2.66, I know horrible
and I have overall of 2.94. I have posted before higher stats but that was a mistake and before I used the AMCAS calculator.
And my MCAT was taken in 2008', was very low, and theoretically expires next year

There are a few places I wanted to apply with conditional acceptances--Drexel DPMS and Temple ACMS...but in the case of Temple both my gpa and MCAT would disqualify me.

My question is: Has anyone decided to forego the SMP and did a DIY repair program instead? Like 2nd Bachelors and basic science Masters? I understand the allure of the SMP but I first need and want to address my study habit issue and time management issue before I hop into an SMP and fail out.

Also, is it possible just to take a few of the medical courses with the medical students without having a formal program/SMP? To me this would be cheaper and I would not have to move to a place with higher cost of living---like take some of the courses through a Master's program?

I guess I am asking, would it be silly of me to take 100+hrs at the undergraduate level to get my gpa up to a theoretical 3.4 overall/sci and apply broadly in 3yrs or would it be better to just fork over the cash and apply to some SMP's...like Drexel, USF IMS, or Temple--maybe?

And has anyone decided to do the "alternate" DIY route and taken 100+hrs or more and were successful in applying and getting into schools?

Sorry if I rambled a bit and if the question seem unclear but I really would like to know what could be my best option besides raising my MCAT, applying D.O. and the usual advice.


P.S. The reason I ask is because I have emailed about 15 admissions counselors from various top-mid-tier schools and they have all given me varied advice with: "Just do an SMP", "do 30hrs ugrad at 4.0 to show upward trend", "do no less than 60hrs or 2-3 semesters @ 4.0/2nd bachelors and M.S. in basic medical science or do a Masters followed by a SMP"....so aside from this varied advice the only consensus was to bring the MCAT up substantially 30 or above. So I am basically confused on which advice to take as most will be 2yrs or more anyway but I just want to get it right and make a concrete plan/strategy this time.

 

[DrMidlife]

There are a few places I wanted to apply with conditional acceptances--Drexel DPMS and Temple ACMS...but in the case of Temple both my gpa and MCAT would disqualify me.

I don't think you're in the ballpark (yet) for the programs that have high results. The high results programs don't take risks. Unfortunately you're risky at this point. The game plan is to make yourself look like a sure bet despite history.

My question is: Has anyone decided to forego the SMP and did a DIY repair program instead? Like 2nd Bachelors and basic science Masters? I understand the allure of the SMP but I first need and want to address my study habit issue and time management issue before I hop into an SMP and fail out.

If you want to do US MD, you need both. You need more undergrad, which won't be enough, so you need an SMP. Also an above average MCAT. Better be sure you want this career, because it's a whole lot of school.

Also, is it possible just to take a few of the medical courses with the medical students without having a formal program/SMP? To me this would be cheaper and I would not have to move to a place with higher cost of living---like take some of the courses through a Master's program?

There's no DIY SMP. Taking "some med courses through a masters program" is an SMP. Med schools don't offer ala carte - they are liable for the education of physicians, and any sullying of that exclusivity (such as the addition of SMP students) is done with a great deal of oversight.

I guess I am asking, would it be silly of me to take 100+hrs at the undergraduate level to get my gpa up to a theoretical 3.4 overall/sci and apply broadly in 3yrs

Yes, this would be silly, but imho you need at least 1 more year of undergrad, all difficult upper div science, at a 3.7+, to demonstrate you're ready for the work of med school...which is what you do in an SMP.

Also you need an above average MCAT before you apply to the SMP. As above, any program that has good results wants to see you're not a risk.

or would it be better to just fork over the cash and apply to some SMP's...like Drexel, USF IMS, or Temple--maybe?

Cash won't get you out of your situation. Years of pain and suffering might.

And has anyone decided to do the "alternate" DIY route and taken 100+hrs or more and were successful in applying and getting into schools?

When you need that much more undergrad, it's financially and registrationally difficult to swing unless you're in a degree program. Typically the 2 year point is where it makes sense to take on a 2nd bachelors.

P.S. The reason I ask is because I have emailed about 15 admissions counselors from various top-mid-tier schools and they have all given me varied advice with: "Just do an SMP", "do 30hrs ugrad at 4.0 to show upward trend", "do no less than 60hrs or 2-3 semesters @ 4.0/2nd bachelors and M.S. in basic medical science or do a Masters followed by a SMP"....so aside from this varied advice

This isn't all that varied: they're all asking you to prove you're not a risk by taking a substantial amount of additional hard science coursework with a very high GPA. It's less interesting to find a program like Drexel that advertises lots of stuff to address the above advice, than it is to find a school where you will thrive. Where do you need to be to get straight A's? Nobody can tell you this: you have to figure out what you need and go get it.

the only consensus was to bring the MCAT up substantially 30 or above.

32 is the national average for matriculants, and it's the one number under your control (unlike GPA), so 32+ is worth a lot of investment.

So I am basically confused on which advice to take as most will be 2yrs or more anyway but I just want to get it right and make a concrete plan/strategy this time.

My advice is to definitely take some time off before you go back to school - I don't mean a summer, I mean a couple of years. Work & travel & do stuff. You'll be amazed what a difference it makes to go back to school. Having a couple of non-school years between your "academic careers" makes a nice dividing line for your story.

Best of luck to you.

 

[EWO]

So it has been a couple of months since the last post. I have since re-factored in my post-baccleaurate grades and the situation is not pretty:


Total gpa including post-bacc, BCPM is 2.58 with 102.5 hours of my 172.5 total hours being SCIENCE.

My cumulative total gpa is 2.94, and this is using the AAMC calculator that they use to have here on SDN.

I know I need more work, but with so many hours already at the science level, will it "really" help? Need 45hrs to get my science gpa to the 3.0 threshold and still then it will be low.


Even with going D.O. route, which has gotten competitive also, I still will possibly need the same 45hrs more of ugrad.

My question should I do 90 more hours of ugrad....take on two ugrad majors chemistry and neuroscience as well as do a few re-takes for the classes I made a C in such as ochem, and 2 D's cancer biology and ochem II? If I did this , it will still take 2yrs before I apply but the gpa theoretically could go up to 3.3 cumulative and 3.2 science. This is not much a jump but doing ugrad could help me keep my contacts, possibly continue the clinical research that I do as well as deal with the inconsistencies of my past academic work. However, it would still place me among the lower end for people applying to med school and I already know the challenges from going from a B, C student to straight A.

The other scenario would be to do the additional 45 hours to bring my cumulative to 3.1 and my science to 3.0 and do do an SMP, still would take 2yrs to accomplish. Or I could forego the SMP and apply straight D.O. but still will take 2yrs being that I can not apply now.

I am currently in a NIH-PREP program which was suppose to help minority students such as I get more competitive for PhD and MD/PhD but my experience has been that this program and its director solely focus on the PhD aspect...he directly told me how "hard" it is to do mD/PhD anyways and "impossible" with my stats which is fine with me, it was my reality check, but I do not like the ill-regard this director has for MD in general...he always make a slight remark about the "debt" medical students have, etc...I understand his enthusiasm for research--I like the clinical research I do as well as I am interested in nutritional science and nutritional research--but to slight another field of practice is immature in my opinion so he and I always seem to be at odds. Because of this one-year contract, I can not take courses relevant to enhancing my application to medical school

Also my MCAT has expired, and I took it three years ago and did poorly so I am already looking to take it after I have completed a good portion of my classes and re-takes.

Really, I am asking which scenario would possibly yield me the theoretical best possibility of getting into a variety of schools dependent of course on my performance?

 

[deleted248403]

To be honest, start looking into other career options or start looking at the Carib. You are a poor candidate for DO, and have not helped your situation.

Either head to the Carib or call it quits

 

[jslo85]

The current average for accepted DO students according to AACOMAS is a 3.35-3.4 and a 26-27 MCAT. Another point that is important to consider is doing well in retakes of pre-requisites will hardly sway Adcoms at said schools to accept you, so plan to tuck in a decent number of upper division science courses (assuming you will obtain good grades in them) as well if you end up going for DO applications without an SMP. Most accepted students actually do not have a large number of retakes unlike what SDN may make it seem.

I would do some serious re-evaluation of your current problems and revisit this in the future. Yes it will take time, but it's far better than potentially digging yourself a deeper hole. Others may disagree, but I'd take a strong look at DO "SMP-style" programs.

 

[EWO]

To be honest, start looking into other career options or start looking at the Carib. You are a poor candidate for DO, and have not helped your situation.

Either head to the Carib or call it quits

I thank you for your candor but I strongly feel and know my potential despite current circumstances and I feel D.O. is STILL a viable option and I would never call it quits on something I believe is my purpose! Carribean would never be a consideration for me even with my "poor" record. Either way thanks for the concisement. 🙂

 

[deleted248403]

I thank you for your candor but I strongly feel and know my potential despite current circumstances and I feel D.O. is STILL a viable option and I would never call it quits on something I believe is my purpose! Carribean would never be a consideration for me even with my "poor" record. Either way thanks for the concisement. 🙂

A BCPM of 2.58 in basic science classes is not indicative of success in the hardest science courses you will ever take.

Call it determination or ignorance or delusional - nothing about your current resume says "I'm a doctor" but do as you will.

 

[EWO]

The current average for accepted DO students according to AACOMAS is a 3.35-3.4 and a 26-27 MCAT. Another point that is important to consider is doing well in retakes of pre-requisites will hardly sway Adcoms at said schools to accept you, so plan to tuck in a decent number of upper division science courses (assuming you will obtain good grades in them) as well if you end up going for DO applications without an SMP. Most accepted students actually do not have a large number of retakes unlike what SDN may make it seem.

I would do some serious re-evaluation of your current problems and revisit this in the future. Yes it will take time, but it's far better than potentially digging yourself a deeper hole. Others may disagree, but I'd take a strong look at DO "SMP-style" programs.

There is not many courses I would need for retakes....outside of chemistry, I did "average" in most my other courses as well as pre-reqs...despite my gpa I have made more B's than C's but neither is really relevant. Yes, the D.O. averages are slowly mirroring the allopathic schools but I feel certain that at worst case scenario, the osteopathic schools may be more accomodating per se, but i know "no" school will be at my current circumstances.

I can only think of four classes, 12hrs, that I would re-take, 2 are C's and 2 are D's and 3 of the 4 are chemistry courses.

I do appreciate your opinion nonetheless and I will think about whether I will take the additional 45hrs needed or take a D.O. SMP and just apply straight D.O. and of course work on my MCAT.

P.S. I do not know what my current AACOMAS gpa would be, but back in 2008 when I applied, my scores were 3.15 science gpa and overall. But I have since took 9 additional science hours, 3 courses, so I am not sure what my gpa would be in the present.

 

[jslo85]

No you do not retake Cs that are not C-s. Is it doable? Yes. But schools simply see view that as an applicant trying to buffer their GPA through easy methods. (4 classes is considered "alot")

Second point, DO schools have a reputation of viewing your complete application. Which is to say, they take into heavy consideration your clinical activities and your LORs, both of which I am not clear as to whether this pertains to you so I won't elaborate.

Ah, and I meant you retake your classes, take at least 4 additional upper division courses and apply to a DO SMP, not apply right now.

You need some form of evidence that you can handle medical school courses which isn't really apparent in your current academic history and even then it's whether you can perform better than your classmates. Anyway, I'd take some time off to think about your shortcomings, your grades aren't predicting a very positive future as it is currently.

 

[common man]

if you're interested in DO...then why are you calculating AMCAS style and BCPMath? calculate it DO style. if you retake a class, then you no longer calculate your grade for the first time you took a class. so if you got a D, retook, and got an A, only the A is calculated even though both grades still appear on the transcript. also, DO does not calculate math into the science gpa.

for DO, just retake the classes where you did most poorly (but also believe you can actually do well when retaking them). that's the fastest way to raise your gpa. as midlife said...your mcat is in your hands....work on that!

 

[EWO]

A BCPM of 2.58 in basic science classes is not indicative of success in the hardest science courses you will ever take.

Call it determination or ignorance or delusional - nothing about your current resume says "I'm a doctor" but do as you will.

Rob at this point and time, I would just much appreciate if you DO NOT even reply to any post concerning me. I am 25 years old and very capable of knowing the "direness" of my situation, but excuse me for not being the "woe is me candidate" that you all love to hamper in on and make feel worthless. This is not the first time you have came at a post I have done this way, I have seen others also, anyone that writes a smidgen bit of optimism you come in with the "delusional or being "highly optimistic" bent, if thats your hang-up then so be it, but nothing you can say can deter me from my goal, you really should see about that hang up of yours.


Is my situation bad? hell yes, but so what? There are a plethora of people with same drive and determination as me who have to face the same hurdles...but thats all they are hurdles....not roadblocks....all I have ever asked was if certain scenarios would be better for me or not but just like in my last posts from last year, you swoop in like a vulture to say I am or people like me are "not being realistic". I am not looking for people to say, oh you will end up in harvard, I dont want harvard, I want a medical school that will suit me after I make the necessary adjustments in my record. People like you, add nothing to these boards if I can be as blunt as you so seem to be. GL with your endeavors but keep the pessimissm to yourself, it has never went well with my persona! 🙄

 

[EWO]

No you do not retake Cs that are not C-s. Is it doable? Yes. But schools simply see view that as an applicant trying to buffer their GPA through easy methods. (4 classes is considered "alot")

Second point, DO schools have a reputation of viewing your complete application. Which is to say, they take into heavy consideration your clinical activities and your LORs, both of which I am not clear as to whether this pertains to you so I won't elaborate.

Ah, and I meant you retake your classes, take at least 4 additional upper division courses and apply to a DO SMP, not apply right now.

You need some form of evidence that you can handle medical school courses which isn't really apparent in your current academic history and even then it's whether you can perform better than your classmates. Anyway, I'd take some time off to think about your shortcomings, your grades aren't predicting a very positive future as it is currently.

I did not know 12hrs was considered a lot but thanks for letting me know that. As I said in my post, I am NOT APPLYING for another 2yrs....just wanted to see which scenario may be best but seeing as NO ONE has offered any advice relative to what I post, thanks for what you have shared so far. It is appreciated.

 

[deleted248403]

I'll make you a deal - this will be my last post in your threads, if you come back in 3 years, when you aren't in a US med school (MD or DO) and say 'you were right'.

Is there a small possibility you will make it? Yes; But it's 1 in 1000 or more. So I feel comfortable playing the odds.

Some people just aren't cut out for medical school and I offer the advice after seeing friends waste years and $$$ to just call it quits at 28 or 29. So hey, if you think you are 1 in 1000; go for it. But if you aren't, come back and tell us how you were one of the 999 who wasted $$$$ and years of your life.

Good luck to you in whatever it turns otu to be

 

[EWO]

if you're interested in DO...then why are you calculating AMCAS style and BCPMath? calculate it DO style. if you retake a class, then you no longer calculate your grade for the first time you took a class. so if you got a D, retook, and got an A, only the A is calculated even though both grades still appear on the transcript. also, DO does not calculate math into the science gpa.

for DO, just retake the classes where you did most poorly (but also believe you can actually do well when retaking them). that's the fastest way to raise your gpa. as midlife said...your mcat is in your hands....work on that!

I am considering mainly D.O. but also some lower-tier medical schools as well. I mentioned the AAMC gpas because I have the excel spreadsheet and so I was able to do the calculations on it. I do not have the AACOM sheet that they have after you apply...I applied back in 2008, so I am not sure what the current gpas would be.

Commonman, you mention re-takes and do D.O would be the fastest, but do you know how D.O. schools look at this? Would a certain number of re-takes be a red-flag? I attended William Carey's informational back in 09 about their new D.O. school in Hattiesburg, MS and the SMP-style program they had. I would much rather enter medical school with a sense of accomplishment through some additional ugrad/grad or SMP-style work rather than the "fastest" route...altough on some days I surely want to do the "fast" route.....biological clock ticking and all...lol but I really wish I had fore-gone this program so I could of had 1-1.5yr under my belt and could better assess which route to take.

Nevertheless, thanks for your reply!

 

[common man]

at the bottom left of your excel you'll see the tabs (sheet 1, 2, 3 etc...). right click sheet 1 and copy it as duplicate into sheet 2. that becomes your DO spreadsheet. so you have both aamc and DO. just make a few adjustments and in 5 minutes you've got both spreadsheets.

i honestly don't know how a DO school will respond to a lot of retakes - that is a good question. but couple the retakes with some good grades in other classes - maybe that's a good mix of speed & new classes. not sure to answer.

as for sense of accomplishment - if you get into medical school that's a hell of an accomplishment but i understand you. you're more resilient than i 👍