apply to 2 programs at same hospital?

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spitfire5454

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so im thinking about next years match. i have found 2 specialties that i would be equally happy in. so one of the biggest factors in where i apply will be proximity to my desired location. lets say there are 3 hospitals i would love to be at, and each offers programs in my 2 choices. My plan was to apply to both programs in each. i have heard that its not a good idea to apply to different programs at the same hospital because the PDs will now, and it looks like you lack a strong commitment to either specialty. what do you guys think? thanks in advance
 
Which two programs are you going to apply to? Are they related at all?
 
spitfire5454 said:
so im thinking about next years match. i have found 2 specialties that i would be equally happy in. so one of the biggest factors in where i apply will be proximity to my desired location. lets say there are 3 hospitals i would love to be at, and each offers programs in my 2 choices. My plan was to apply to both programs in each. i have heard that its not a good idea to apply to different programs at the same hospital because the PDs will now, and it looks like you lack a strong commitment to either specialty. what do you guys think? thanks in advance
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I don't know what happens (yet), but a friend of mine did it this year, and at multiple hospitals. Like you, location was a HUGE factor for her. I think she ended up doubling up at 3 or 4 hospitals in the area... and that's all she applied to. Everyone in our class who knows about this thinks she is definitely "balls-y". Will let you know how the match goes next week.
 
Let me tell a cautionary tale regarding this subject -

I'm an MS4 and met a bunch of people on the interview trail this year. You start to see the same people at different programs. I remember talking to this one fellow applicant at several interviews and we became friendly.

Anyways, I went back to a second look at a program. I was walking around the hospital with the residents, and I see this fellow applicant walking towards me in the corridor with what looked like a faculty member. And I waved. The applicant recognized me, started to wave, then got this crazy look and looked away and pretended not to see me, and walked by us very awkwardly. It was weird, but I didn't think anything of it.

Problem was, the residents recognized this fellow applicant as well. And they did not recognize the faculty member at all. They realized at that instant that the applicant was double applying to another specialty but in the same hospital. They couldn't believe it and were very put off by the whole thing. They asked me this applicant's last name but I said I didn't remember it (even though I did) because I was not about to be the one who put the nail in the coffin. They did remember the applicant's home school and first name however. So they called up the program coordinator, told the coordinator that this applicant was double applying, and I'm pretty sure that was the end of that applicant's chances at matching at this program. I felt absolutely terrible for this applicant.

I can say, based on what I saw, that programs do not care to be one of many specialties that you are applying to. The residents were offended and I think rightfully so. I'm pretty sure that if they had recognized that faculty member, they may have called that department and let them know that this applicant was double applying to that specialty as well.

So, moral of the story, if you are going to double apply, please please please be discreet about it and realizing that you are putting yourself at risk by going back to the same hospital for different specialties. 🙁
 
spitfire5454 said:
so im thinking about next years match. i have found 2 specialties that i would be equally happy in. so one of the biggest factors in where i apply will be proximity to my desired location. lets say there are 3 hospitals i would love to be at, and each offers programs in my 2 choices. My plan was to apply to both programs in each. i have heard that its not a good idea to apply to different programs at the same hospital because the PDs will now, and it looks like you lack a strong commitment to either specialty. what do you guys think? thanks in advance
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This really depends (as Blade28 alluded to) on which specialties they are.

If one of those specialties is super competitive (i.e. derm, urology, integrated plastics, rad onc), then it is perfectly reasonable that you will apply to another, less competitive field, possibly in that same hospital. The PDs of these specialties are aware that students will need a backup - in fact, some encouraged it.

If the specialties are similar to each other or linked in some way (i.e. integrated plastics-general surgery, radiology-pathology, family med-med peds), it might be okay as well.

If the specialties are extremely different, this is a bad, bad idea. PDs like to see commitment to the field - not committment to a geographical location. This is particularly true of physically demanding fields such as surgery and ob/gyn. As some surgery and ob/gyn PDs have put it, there is a high rate of attrition in these fields, and if you apply to 2 separate specialties, it will raise a red flag and label you as a "drop-out" risk.

(The exception to applying to 2 different fields is if you have a good, upfront explanation. For instance, if you apply to both peds and psych because you'd like to be a pediatric psychiatrist one day, then that would probably be fine. But applying to both peds and surgery is not.)

This info comes directly from actual PDs - so apply to different programs at the same hospital at your own risk.
 
youcandoit said:
They did remember the applicant's home school and first name however. So they called up the program coordinator, told the coordinator that this applicant was double applying, and I'm pretty sure that was the end of that applicant's chances at matching at this program. I felt absolutely terrible for this applicant.
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I would think that that would endanger his chances at matching at ANY program in this field. I've heard that PDs have a tendency to share negative stories about applicants with each other....
 
smq123 said:
If one of those specialties is super competitive (i.e. derm, urology, integrated plastics, rad onc), then it is perfectly reasonable that you will apply to another, less competitive field, possibly in that same hospital. The PDs of these specialties are aware that students will need a backup - in fact, some encouraged it.

If the specialties are similar to each other or linked in some way (i.e. integrated plastics-general surgery, radiology-pathology, family med-med peds), it might be okay as well.

If the specialties are extremely different, this is a bad, bad idea.
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Solid advice.

If you're applying to a competitive field, it's expected that you'll have a backup plan - there's nothing wrong with applying to Ortho and G Surg, or Derm and IM, etc.

But if they are two disparate fields - like, for example, Peds and Rads - then yeah, they may wonder.
 
thanks for the replies. the two fields im considering are anesthesia and PM&R. they seem to have a lot in common but very different clinical approaches. you think i could get a way with these two, or would it look bad? thanks.
 
The feeling I got when speaking to multiple specialty advisers here at my school is that they don't appreciate applying to multiple specialties unless the field is really one of those insanely competitive ones. (Another poster referenced a couple of these fields earlier)

If you absolutely had to, I would definitely advise against applying to both specialties at the same hospital.

For instance, I had a classmate who (for lifestyle reasons no doubt) somehow saw fit to apply to derm and radiology programs.

The bulk of his applications when towards derm programs and he followed it up with just 10 low-level rads programs that were in completely different areas.

I still find that to be a risky maneuver (people talk) but if you absolutely had to find yourself in two fields that are completely unrelated, I'd steer clear of double applying to the same hospital.
 
spitfire5454 said:
thanks for the replies. the two fields im considering are anesthesia and PM&R. they seem to have a lot in common but very different clinical approaches. you think i could get a way with these two, or would it look bad? thanks.
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Oh - are you interested in pain management? I know that anesthesia does a lot of pain management, and so does PM&R.

If so, you'd have to make that very, very clear in your application. (Otherwise, people will just think that you're fishing for a lifestyle specialty.) If they're both pathways to the same subspecialty/fellowship, then that might be okay (like the peds-psych example that I gave earlier). But you'll really have to stress that in your PS.
 
smq123 said:
Oh - are you interested in pain management? I know that anesthesia does a lot of pain management, and so does PM&R.

If so, you'd have to make that very, very clear in your application. (Otherwise, people will just think that you're fishing for a lifestyle specialty.) If they're both pathways to the same subspecialty/fellowship, then that might be okay (like the peds-psych example that I gave earlier). But you'll really have to stress that in your PS.
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Couldn't you say that anesthesiology is a competitive specialty and that it would be ok to have PM&R as a backup?
 
pls accept me said:
Couldn't you say that anesthesiology is a competitive specialty and that it would be ok to have PM&R as a backup?
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Anesthesiology is certainly competitive but not to the point of the other aforementioned fields.
 
everyones pretty much got it right. i am interested in pain managment. To be honest, i think i like anesthesia a little better, but i am definetly scared of not matching, so im planning to use PMR as a backup. my logic is that they both lead to the fellowship i want, and i could easily see myself doing either as i enjoy them both.
 
spitfire5454 said:
everyones pretty much got it right. i am interested in pain managment. To be honest, i think i like anesthesia a little better, but i am definetly scared of not matching, so im planning to use PMR as a backup. my logic is that they both lead to the fellowship i want, and i could easily see myself doing either as i enjoy them both.
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In that case, talk it over openly from someone in anesthesia at your school (the clerkship director - if you have one - or the program director), and see what they say. I think that wanting to specialize in pain management is a good reason to apply to both anesthesia and PMR.

Good luck!
 
Double interviewing may be problematic but double applying the programs would have no way to know.

For example, if you are not sure if you will be competitive, you could apply to anesthesia and PM&R at the same places then if you get anesthesia interviews, don't go to your PM&R interview at that hospital, assuming you get both.

Although I kinda think the risk of being recognized is pretty small. If you are super concerned, you could wear glasses for one/contacts for the other, different outfit, different hairstyle, etc (especially easy if you are female). People probably don't remember applicants that well and interviews are mostly to see if you are a normal human who can carry a conversation so just don't try to be the "standout" applicant in a good or bad way, eg by getting drunk at dinner or by treating the residents to your standup comedy routine. If you sorta blend and look vaguely different at your other interview, no one will remember you.
 
Blade28 said:
Rads > Ophtho > ENT > EM

My $0.02.
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I'd say Ophtho > ENT > Rads > EM.

The comparatively high number of spots in Rads makes it easier if you apply broadly. Just my opinion though.
 
TexPre-Med said:
I'd say Ophtho > ENT > Rads > EM.

The comparatively high number of spots in Rads makes it easier if you apply broadly. Just my opinion though.
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A large number of spots doesn't necessarily mean a residency field is less competitive. If that were true, PM&R would be almost as competitive as Derm (274 spots vs. 288 spots last year, respectively).

Rads is notorious for quickly becoming one of the most competitive fields as of right now - not as bad as Derm, but quickly approaching it.

Also IMHO.
 
The thing that makes Ophtho and ENT competitive in my mind is not that they're super academically strenouous, but that they're so close knit that they like to see letters and research in the field, which can be difficult to get. In my opinion, it's easier to get hooked up with a good rads program who'll get you on the right path vs. ENT and Ophtho.
 
I'm interested in pain management. I thought about both fields and decided on anesthesia as my preferred route.

I had 2 letters from pain faculty and a personal statement with a strong emphasis on my long-standing interest in pain.

During interviews, I was often questioned as to my commitment to Anesthesiology. I was regularly asked how many weeks of anesthesia rotations I had done, and why I had not applied to PM&R. I think some interviewers were trying to determine if I was double-applying (I was not). I seem to have answered those questions to their satisfaction, but nonetheless they came up a lot.

What are your numbers like? Gas is "competitive," but there are less competitive programs, and even with average or somewhat subaverage scores, most are able to get a spot.

I also think that Anesthesiology and PM&R trained pain guys approach the field somewhat differently, so you should pick your residency based on career path, not location. Unless you are a particularly weak applicant, if you apply broadly in Anesthesiology you should have a good shot somewhere.
 
lord_jeebus said:
I also think that Anesthesiology and PM&R trained pain guys approach the field somewhat differently, so you should pick your residency based on career path, not location. Unless you are a particularly weak applicant, if you apply broadly in Anesthesiology you should have a good shot somewhere.
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Undoubtedly true but most people who apply to 2 programs at one hospital are doing so because they can't apply broadly for some reason, eg personal situation with a spouse or something.

The whole idea that someone would be "outted" for double applying or be frowned upon really annoys me - I think it is unrealistic to expect a person to know exactly what s/he wants to do based on 1-6 months of experience of a field. If you had a horrible core rotation because of a mean resident, it doesn't mean necessarily you would have hated the field otherwise. Or the converse. Would you marry someone based on 1 month of dates?

And I also think it's unrealistic to think someone could only possibly be happy in one field. People have different strengths and many fields are similar - someone who likes surgery might very well also like ob-gyn or ENT or ortho or even anesthesia. Given the number of people who enter things like IM with many subspecialties who end up applying to a different subspeciality ultimately shows people don't necessarily know right away.

Nothing to do about it except be covert, but that's my $0.02.
 
What about applying for categorial general surgery and surgical prelim at the same hospital?
 
rox said:
What about applying for categorial general surgery and surgical prelim at the same hospital?
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I really can't see anyone faulting you for having applied to two surgery programs. It's really just if you're applying in different departments.
 
rox said:
What about applying for categorial general surgery and surgical prelim at the same hospital?
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Programs might be confused so you should make it apparent that you really want the categorical position but would accept a Prelim position as well if that is all that is offered (provided that is your plan...if the Prelim position is because you are applying for a designated spot for a surgical subspecialty, that is a different story).
 
lord_jeebus said:
What are your numbers like? Gas is "competitive," but there are less competitive programs, and even with average or somewhat subaverage scores, most are able to get a spot.
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Alright, it been a good conversation thus far and im looking for honest thoughts so here ya go: USIMG, 211/87 step I (2nd attempt), step II in july (i know i have to kill it), have some research, but not really anesthesia based. So I think i would be really foolish to apply to gas without a backup. thus PM&R. i hope to get some good letters from my gas rotation. I plan to apply broadly for both specialties and was going to double apply to programs close to home. Other than that im not sure what more i can do. i want to get some anesthesia related research, but im having a hard time finding some. im just kinda paranoid after seeing the match this year. Apparently it was pretty competitive and doesnt seem to be letting up anytime soon. The only thing i know for sure, is that i know that i would rather chew my own feet off than go into these: FP, IM, Peds, Psyc. It just wasnt for me. Im on call and im ranting. thanks for listening! so tell me what you think?
 
Winged Scapula said:
Programs might be confused so you should make it apparent that you really want the categorical position but would accept a Prelim position as well if that is all that is offered (provided that is your plan...if the Prelim position is because you are applying for a designated spot for a surgical subspecialty, that is a different story).
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The idea is to have the prelim as a back up in case of failure to land on any categorial position.

People keep talking about programs that are well-known to move prelims into categorial positions. Do you think it would be wise to apply for both Categorial and Prelim positions in such programs, and let them know that I really want the Categorical position but would accept a Prelim position ?

What would your impression be about such an applicant?
 
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