Apply to PhD program after M1/M2?

[Beau Geste]

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As a former doctoral student switching to medicine, I plan on applying only to MD/DO programs not MD/PhD or DO/PhD programs, mostly because I want to concentrate on the MD/DO degree. I've been thinking though, what could I do in the event I get through my 1st or 2nd year and decide I still want to pursue a PhD in addition to the MD/DO? Do some schools have options to enter a PhD program while in med school outside of the MD/DO/PhD route?

I have found myself in A&P class switching to doc student mode by thinking of interesting research ideas and can see myself really wanting to pursue them if the resources were available. Anyway - anyone have any info about that?

 

[thos]

Most any med school will allow a leave of absence to pursue a PhD. It's also an option to apply to the MSTP (or other "official" MD/PhD program) at any point along the way. In both cases, you have to borrow to pay for the med school you did before joining the program, and if you're just on a LOA, then you have to pay for all of med school. One reason to fund MD/PhD programs in the first place is that grads will ideally go on to academic medicine and make less money than had they gone private. This next part is pure speculation by me: an MD/PhD program director might see it as wishy-washy if you were in a PhD program, dropped out for med school, then applied to get back into PhD training. I advise thinking long and hard before making the decision, and if you think you'll want to go back to research, then apply MD/PhD from the get-go because 1) I think it looks better from a "motivation" standpoint, and 2) you'll save yourself a bunch of loans.

 

[Beau Geste]

Most any med school will allow a leave of absence to pursue a PhD. It's also an option to apply to the MSTP (or other "official" MD/PhD program) at any point along the way. In both cases, you have to borrow to pay for the med school you did before joining the program, and if you're just on a LOA, then you have to pay for all of med school. One reason to fund MD/PhD programs in the first place is that grads will ideally go on to academic medicine and make less money than had they gone private. This next part is pure speculation by me: an MD/PhD program director might see it as wishy-washy if you were in a PhD program, dropped out for med school, then applied to get back into PhD training. I advise thinking long and hard before making the decision, and if you think you'll want to go back to research, then apply MD/PhD from the get-go because 1) I think it looks better from a "motivation" standpoint, and 2) you'll save yourself a bunch of loans.

Well, the "dropping out" issue was more my major professor's issue than mine - he left the program for another that didn't offer a doctoral degree. Since it was a small program, there wasn't funding for my specific area of interest, and it wasn't related to biology, physics, or chemistry. I'm not in the least concerned if I'm questioned about it.

The other issue about applying from the beginning for MD/PhD is that I'm not 100% sure that's the direction I want to go into. I just posted my question as a "what if" situation in the event I DON'T apply to MD/PhD programs.

I have a while to think about it, but I like to have my options in front of me, so I figured it couldn't hurt by asking.

 

[dr.z]

Well, the "dropping out" issue was more my major professor's issue than mine - he left the program for another that didn't offer a doctoral degree. Since it was a small program, there wasn't funding for my specific area of interest, and it wasn't related to biology, physics, or chemistry. I'm not in the least concerned if I'm questioned about it.

The other issue about applying from the beginning for MD/PhD is that I'm not 100% sure that's the direction I want to go into. I just posted my question as a "what if" situation in the event I DON'T apply to MD/PhD programs.

I have a while to think about it, but I like to have my options in front of me, so I figured it couldn't hurt by asking.

There are people who enter MD/PhD who do not end up doing the Ph.D portion too.

 

[IBleedGreen]

I applied to regular MD programs because I was certain I wanted that education. I enjoyed research in undergrad but wasn't sure if I ultimately wanted to do it. During my MS1 year, I decided things were going so fast that I'd like to slow it down and pursue a PhD too. My school allows med students to take time off for a PhD, but the MSTP program only accepts entering 1st year students. That said, my PhD program funds its grad students, so I'm really just paying for med school with extra interest on loans. Also, you should know that there are individual MD/PHD NRSA training grants available through the NIH that you can apply for any time before completing the PhD portion. Hope this helps!

 

[lushmd]

...there are individual MD/PHD NRSA training grants available through the NIH that you can apply for any time before completing the PhD portion. Hope this helps!

FYI, I believe that these grants stipulate that, in order to be eligible, there must be at least year of dedicated research time remaining when the grant is awarded.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Does anyone ever take a leave of absence from med school to complete a PhD at a different institution then return to complete their MD?

 

[gutonc]

Does anyone ever take a leave of absence from med school to complete a PhD at a different institution then return to complete their MD?

Interesting question. I think it might be difficult for a few reasons.

1. Since you're going to a different place, it might be difficult to get them to give you credit in grad school for med school classes you've taken. In many programs this lops a year or more off the time to get a PhD.

2. I'm not sure most schools would be willing to give you a 4-6 year leave of absence. I suppose it's possible but it's probably not easy.

IMHO, you'd be better off doing a Research Residency program after you graduate which would allow you to get a PhD at that point. Most programs offer this option with an extra year over the usual post-doc period.

BE

 

[MasonPrehealth]

If you're really thinking about getting into a Ph.D. program in the midst of your M.D., you really need to assess your own interests in medical school. As mentioned before, a lot of medical training will involve going to the bench and learning research techniques and concepts. You're going to get that exposure without having to write a thesis and get a Ph.D. I will doubt that any medical school will suspend your enrollment to pursue a Ph.D., but I will think they will allow you the one extra year to get exposure to research (if it's not part of the curriculum).

 

[thos]

Does anyone ever take a leave of absence from med school to complete a PhD at a different institution then return to complete their MD?

I'm not sure about the exact situation you propose, but two members of our MSTP did their PhDs at other institutions. One went to MIT undergrad and had already done research with a professor, so when it came time for his PhD he went back to MIT for about 5 years. I'm not sure which institution granted the PhD, but his MD was definitely our institution. Another former student did his PhD work at Penn. Both were funded as MSTP students during their entire tenure.

As for a leave of absence outside of the MSTP, off the top of my head I can think of two med students here who took a leave of absence from med school to pursue a PhD outside of our MSTP (or any official MD/PhD program for that matter). Both took about 5 years to complete the PhD, and both were funded as grad students by their departments while med school was on their dime. I think MasonHealth is right that most schools will allow a year for research, such as HHMI, Masters degree, etc., but I would imagine most also allow time for a PhD. After all, it's really no skin off their collective nose, and I can't imagine they'd want to prevent someone from an following academic medicine career path.

Regarding MasonHealth's statement "As mentioned before, a lot of medical training will involve going to the bench and learning research techniques and concepts. You're going to get that exposure without having to write a thesis and get a Ph.D.," I have to respectfully disagree. Medical school itself has very little research training, and an occasional wet lab won't do much to teach true lab science. Further, with a few exceptions, residency training is almost exclusively clinical. To compare this minimal amount of exposure to PhD training is unfair. I don't think anyone would question your interest in medicine if you also expressed an interest in PhD training, and some of our most successful grads joined the program after the first two years of med school. BTW, don't take all of this to say you must have a PhD to do meaningful research, basic or clinical (but that's another discussion thread).

 

[thos]

There are people who enter MD/PhD who do not end up doing the Ph.D portion too.

Very true. I've heard estimates that attrition across the board is about 50%, although that seems a little high to me. If I had to estimate, I would say we lose 1-3 of 8-10 per year over the long run.

 

[mjs]

Does anyone ever take a leave of absence from med school to complete a PhD at a different institution then return to complete their MD?

It happens.

 

[tr]

Does anyone ever take a leave of absence from med school to complete a PhD at a different institution then return to complete their MD?

Someone at our program started out that way. He began his MD education at another institution, then took a leave of absence and entered a PhD program here, with the understanding that he would return to complete his MD at his original institution.

He actually ended up applying for a transfer to our program in the last year of his PhD, so he ended up with both degrees from our MSTP. This was completely his own choice, though. (I think he did it because he had become comfortable with the social network and didn't feel like going back to his old school where he wouldn't know anyone anymore.)

So I actually don't think this is so difficult to arrange. The question is, why would you want to do it? Just apply MD-PhD in the first place. Otherwise, if you're a 'late bloomer' (past MSI/II), I'd say just do a year (or two) of research and then go for a research-heavy residency/fellowship/postdoc.

 

[dr.z]

Someone at our program started out that way. He began his MD education at another institution, then took a leave of absence and entered a PhD program here, with the understanding that he would return to complete his MD at his original institution.

He actually ended up applying for a transfer to our program in the last year of his PhD, so he ended up with both degrees from our MSTP. This was completely his own choice, though. (I think he did it because he had become comfortable with the social network and didn't feel like going back to his old school where he wouldn't know anyone anymore.)

So I actually don't think this is so difficult to arrange. The question is, why would you want to do it? Just apply MD-PhD in the first place. Otherwise, if you're a 'late bloomer' (past MSI/II), I'd say just do a year (or two) of research and then go for a research-heavy residency/fellowship/postdoc.

I knew someone who did the same. He never returned to his original institution for 3rd year. He ended up transfering to another institution.

 

[MasonPrehealth]

Regarding MasonHealth's statement "As mentioned before, a lot of medical training will involve going to the bench and learning research techniques and concepts. You're going to get that exposure without having to write a thesis and get a Ph.D.," I have to respectfully disagree. Medical school itself has very little research training, and an occasional wet lab won't do much to teach true lab science. Further, with a few exceptions, residency training is almost exclusively clinical. To compare this minimal amount of exposure to PhD training is unfair. I don't think anyone would question your interest in medicine if you also expressed an interest in PhD training, and some of our most successful grads joined the program after the first two years of med school. BTW, don't take all of this to say you must have a PhD to do meaningful research, basic or clinical (but that's another discussion thread).

I'll admit that some of my knowledge bias is towards schools that have a significant research component in their curriculum. Mind that beginning graduate students usually undergo several two-month period research terms to find out what labs they want to work in for their careers; I'm not sure whether all medical schools would perform similar rotations, but I have heard that some med schools do it. More and more from what I've been seeing (as a new professional in this field) is that research is very important for a clinician to understand the basic science behind many of the achievements of the last 10 years... and research experience even for young med students is being valued as a very important piece of that education. Whether they do a good job... I guess I'll have to see, but there are MD's who are doing very good research and balancing it against a clinical or administrative schedule rather impressively (as I know from my own interactions with those investigators in my grad/postdoc past).

However, what should also be made clear is that you can do research with just an MD, and there are programs and grants that will let you do that as medical students and residents (Howard Hughes has one, NIH has another).

Would I say that getting research training in the context of a medical education background is comparable to what Ph.D.'s do? Absolutely not. But more medical education wants students exposed to research environments and supports those who want to have more research experience. But I wouldn't go so far as saying they would be that supportive of people dropping out for a few years to complete a Ph.D. MD/PhD programs are not for everyone, and while there is some recognized deficiency in the number of people with both degrees, it should not be presumed that MD's cannot perform important research. It's never going to be easy, but it's not easy for Ph.D.'s to get gainful employment as researchers either.

That said, if your heart really is in biomedical research, consider just doing a Ph.D. You'll be less in debt and at least in the short-run less stressed in learning the material (though it will still be rather quick). But MD's and other medical professionals can perform and do research without that degree because there are other opportunities to pick that up later on. And you are encouraged to do so.

We can discuss whether "we" do a good job training Ph.D.'s in research techniques and concepts another time.

 

[thos]

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be argumentative, but I do disagree with the attitude that those interested in biomedical research should just stick to a PhD. Also, I agree whole heartedly that MDs can do great research (see the final sentence of my previous post). But, I hate to see someone truly interested in both degrees discouraged from pursuing both. My experience is as an MSTP graduate from a school in the top 25 for both research and clinical med schools, but it is a state school so my opinion is tempered by that particular environment. Here are some additional thoughts.

"More and more from what I've been seeing (as a new professional in this field) is that research is very important for a clinician to understand the basic science behind many of the achievements of the last 10 years... and research experience even for young med students is being valued as a very important piece of that education." I couldn't agree more, it is important for clinicians to understand basic research. I hope that med schools are moving towards some research experience, but I haven't seen it yet and I'm not sure when it would fit in outside of an extra year of school (maybe that's what you mean). As it is, clinical courses are added regularly, and this year's M1 has more coursework than I did back in 97-98. Plus, at a state school the number of students interested in research of any kind, other than a summer project to put on their CV, is extremely limited. Many students do these summer research rotations, but it is completely elective. There may be a trend towards more research in some of the top tier schools (doesn't Yale require a thesis?), but short of an extra year which is voluntary, I don't think many med schools have this as part of their curriculum. I'd certainly be interested to learn of those that do.

"But I wouldn't go so far as saying they would be that supportive of people dropping out for a few years to complete a Ph.D." This is my experience, and seems to be the experience of other posters. Yes, I use anecdotal evidence of two students among the hundreds during that time, but from what I know they didn't have much difficulty scheduling it. Although I have no inside information, I just don't see why a med school would object. Maybe we're dealing in semantics of "supportive" vs. tolerant.

"MD/PhD programs are not for everyone, and while there is some recognized deficiency in the number of people with both degrees, it should not be presumed that MD's cannot perform important research. It's never going to be easy, but it's not easy for Ph.D.'s to get gainful employment as researchers either." Again, I couldn't agree more with your first two statements. I'm not sure about that last point and how it fits. In some cases, it's actually easier for an MD to do research because of access to clinical specimens, data, etc. There certainly are great MD researchers, but the experience of a PhD makes it easier to transition into research, after all that's what the training is for.

"That said, if your heart really is in biomedical research, consider just doing a Ph.D. You'll be less in debt and at least in the short-run less stressed in learning the material (though it will still be rather quick). But MD's and other medical professionals can perform and do research without that degree because there are other opportunities to pick that up later on. And you are encouraged to do so." Maybe we can just agree to disagree on this point. I think someone truly interested in biomedical research would be well served by an MD. I can't say my PhD was less stressful than my MD, just different. I think earning the degrees together, if possible, helps integrate the two in a way that isn't possible any other way. I'm not completely familiar with the residency/PhD or fellowship/PhD type program, but from what I hear research time is never as protected as it is during a "true" grad school experience.

Finally, don't take it that I think everyone interested in research should pursue a combined degree. In most cases, I think a summer project or something similar is more than enough experience to help foster an appreciation for basic and clinical research. My main point in posting is that soemone already on the path to an MD (or considering it) who is also interested in having research as a large component of their career shouldn't hesitate to look into PhD options.

I'm eager to hear your thoughts.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Good posts, your thoughts are much appreciated. I'm starting med school in the fall and should have applied MD/PhD from the get go, but I didn't. I am going to try to enter my institution's MSTP as an MSI/II, but I am also thinking about a contingency plan if that fails.

 

[thos]

Good posts, your thoughts are much appreciated. I'm starting med school in the fall and should have applied MD/PhD from the get go, but I didn't. I am going to try to enter my institution's MSTP as an MSI/II, but I am also thinking about a contingency plan if that fails.

The three people I've know to do this (one is actually in the process) put in some research time during med school to show their interest. One did a good summer project, one did an MD/MS program and essentially carried that on, and the third took a year off to do a research project before applying. Just keep in mind that programs are looking for someone who has experience, mostly to show you understand the ups and downs of research. Best of luck to you.

 

[MasonPrehealth]

I also should have remembered, NIH does have some wisdom to target those pursuing pre-health professional degrees for doing research with its T35 mechanism. Admittedly these are institutional grants, but they are meant for summer research-intensive programs.

 

[MasonPrehealth]

Believe me, I don't want to discourage anyone from taking the time to pursue research. If anyone takes the initiative to try it, that's great, and I hope there will be people who will help see it through. I also admit that a combined MD/PhD education is vastly different than either alone. I'm just not sure that it is necessary for someone who earns a health professions degree to go back to get a PhD for the purposes of gaining credibility in research.

Unless someone tells me differently it isn't easy (or it's downright rare) for an M1 to get into an MD/PhD program once he/she is in med school. I don't know if that's what the original poster wanted, but at least on the faculty side, at least the usual script really dissuades anyone from dropping out after M2 to go for a Ph.D., then return to take the Step 1 and go into clinic in the same way that MD/Ph.D.'s do. I don't know whether that's fair or why a person cannot do that on their own without being in a combined program... but that's going to be the obstacle one would have to convince a grad school admissions committee (even if some committees are more amenable to the idea than others).

 

[IBleedGreen]

Unless someone tells me differently it isn't easy (or it's downright rare) for an M1 to get into an MD/PhD program once he/she is in med school. I don't know if that's what the original poster wanted, but at least on the faculty side, at least the usual script really dissuades anyone from dropping out after M2 to go for a Ph.D., then return to take the Step 1 and go into clinic in the same way that MD/Ph.D.'s do. I don't know whether that's fair or why a person cannot do that on their own without being in a combined program... but that's going to be the obstacle one would have to convince a grad school admissions committee (even if some committees are more amenable to the idea than others).

I think this is completely based on individual institutions and can't be generalized. For example, my med school told me when I applied to the regular MD program that students interested in getting a PhD or Masters were automatically accepted into the respective graduate program at our school. I do think our admissions' dean took some liberties with that statement (it wasn't automatic), but all I had to do was fill out a formal application to the Graduate School, interview with some faculty in the department, and I was in! Although I'm not in our school's MSTP program, I'm following the same timeline those students do. So Step 1 is actually taken at the end of 2nd year (1 more month!), then I'm taking time off to do the PhD, and returning for 3rd year to finish up the MD.

While I agree this is a rare path to take, I don't think it's that difficult in terms of admissions. My grad program is happy to have an MD student in it. And the med school gets my money one way or another 🙂

 

[r1oid]

A MSII just transfered into our MSTP program. I beleive he had made his intentions to do so early on in his MSI, and did summer "rotation" as a med student to prove his seriousness. I think if you get into contact with the program early and keep showing them your interest and inititive in doing a summer rotation with someone who could take you on as a grad student (funding wise, affiliated departmentwise), it makes it easier for them to be able to say yes.

The advantage you have over the new cycle's applicants is that you have the time get the MD/PhD program directors to know you, and if you have a productive summer rotation it proves that you can do the PhD work.

I think not having done the MSI-MSII summer rotation would work against you in getting in, because then you only have one rotation before grad school would start and that is pretty risky seeing that from the time grad school starts every additional rotation kind of puts you 3months over the line on finishing in 4 years (from a rough MD/PhD dual program timeline).