Applying for both MD and MDPhD Programs

[FredJuan]

Hello! My question in short is:

Is it possible to apply to a school for both the MD and MDPhD programs at the same time?

The schools I am interested in are UCSD, UCSF, UCLA, and UCI. The MD PhD is my first choice, but if I don't get accepted into this program at one of these schools is it still possible to be considered for the MD program? Do you then have two rounds secondaries and interviews or is it possible to incorporate both into one process?

I tried to look it up on my own but couldn't find a clear answer. I would appreciate any insight. Thank you!

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[JJMrK]

I believe that in order to be accepted to an MD/PhD program, you need to be accepted to both the MD and the PhD portions. In other words, if they deem you good enough for the MD but not good enough for the PhD, they'll still offer you a spot in the class for the MD portion. Somebody who actually applied MD/PhD can either confirm or deny this.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

It depends on the specific school and program. Most often, they are separate, and you are considered for both. Most MD/PhD programs require the same secondary as the MD admission, plus an additional application specific for MD/PhD admission.

I would do a thorough search of each website and/or call the school admission administrator to find out.

 

[blazinfury]

Sorry for intruding on this thread, but I had a question about LORs. If you are applying to both, how should you tell your recommenders to phrase your LORs. If say for instance, you tell them to argue for your potential as an MSTP, won't the schools to which you applied MD, just reject you because they won't find you serious about medicine. And the same for MSTPs if vice versa. And if you say half of your LORs are to MSTPs and half are to MDs, isn't that a hazard in its own right that you won't know which ones each respective program will look at. Some input would be much appreciated. Thanks so much.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

If say for instance, you tell them to argue for your potential as an MSTP, won't the schools to which you applied MD, just reject you because they won't find you serious about medicine.

Why does applying to MSTP make you less serious about medicine?

 

[allykat29]

Why does applying to MSTP make you less serious about medicine?

Yea, it seems as though it would more likely go the other way - applying both MSTP and MD might make MSTP programs suspicious about how committed you are to research. My advice would be to either decide which type of program you want to apply to, or be ready to field some questions during interviews about your motivations.

As for LORs, you can direct certain LORs to certain schools on AMCAS.

 

[blazinfury]

I understand what both of you guys mean. It is just that I know what type of field I would like to pursue as an MSTP, but not every school has it or PIs who are doing the type of research that I am interested in that field. As a result, I am limited to the MSTP schools that I apply to because I don't see any reason to apply MSTP to a school that does not have my research interests. So I am applying MD just in case all of my MSTP choices reject me.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

I understand what both of you guys mean. It is just that I know what type of field I would like to pursue as an MSTP, but not every school has it or PIs who are doing the type of research that I am interested in that field. As a result, I am limited to the MSTP schools that I apply to because I don't see any reason to apply MSTP to a school that does not have my research interests. So I am applying MD just in case all of my MSTP choices reject me.

I had the same problem. 10+ years ago there were very few MD/PhD programs where doing research in engineering was an option. Of course, I just applied to all those places and hoped for the best. Luckily it worked out!

However, one thing I've learned doing my PhD, the specific research you are doing (which constantly shifts based on what is working and what is not) is not as important as selecting a compatible PI. It is really the thought process and not the specifics. Don't limit yourself too much based what exact research is available. Not to mention faculty come and go, a lot can change in the next 3+ years before you actually get to the grad student portion of your training. My eventual PhD advisor was not even on faculty when I was applying.

 

[blazinfury]

calvinNhobbes, I agree with everything that you say, but I feel that it is futile to apply to a school that does not have faculty in my field of interest. I completely agree with you about the narrowing my specialization part. I am keeping an open mind, but I am also looking at schools that currently have faculty in my area and that support my type of research. Sadly, there are currently few and the ones that have a plethora of faculty, are competitive. I agree that what I must do is pray for the best.

However, what is your take on applying to both programs and how should one format their application and LORs to satisfy each one and not get rejected b/c they question your devotion to it?

 

[Ariodant]

Hello! My question in short is:

Is it possible to apply to a school for both the MD and MDPhD programs at the same time?

The schools I am interested in are UCSD, UCSF, UCLA, and UCI. The MD PhD is my first choice, but if I don't get accepted into this program at one of these schools is it still possible to be considered for the MD program? Do you then have two rounds secondaries and interviews or is it possible to incorporate both into one process?

I tried to look it up on my own but couldn't find a clear answer. I would appreciate any insight. Thank you!

At UCSF, you will be considered separately and simultaneously for MD and MSTP admissions. If you apply to MSTP at UCLA and UCSD, you will be considered for MD-only should you be rejected from their MSTP, pre or post-interview. I'm not too sure about UCI. I applied two years ago, so you definitely should contact the admissions office at each school to get the most updated info.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

calvinNhobbes, I agree with everything that you say, but I feel that it is futile to apply to a school that does not have faculty in my field of interest. I completely agree with you about the narrowing my specialization part. I am keeping an open mind, but I am also looking at schools that currently have faculty in my area and that support my type of research. Sadly, there are currently few and the ones that have a plethora of faculty, are competitive. I agree that what I must do is pray for the best.

Hey, do whatever you want, but interests change and faculty change. I would not limit yourself before the application process even starts.

However, what is your take on applying to both programs and how should one format their application and LORs to satisfy each one and not get rejected b/c they question your devotion to it?

If you seem to be so narrowly focused on your research interests that you won't even consider applying to MD/PhD programs that don't have it, why are you even bothering to apply to MD only programs if doing a very specific type of research is so important to you?

Doesn't really make sense to me.

EDIT: Honestly, I would format it to reflect my true self and interests. If that causes them to question my commitment, screw them, that's not the place I would thrive in academically anyway.

 

[blazinfury]

I appreciate your advice. I am applying MD because I want to do translational research in the future and if I am rejected from MSTP, I could still have a chance to do translational research in the future as an MD. That is my reason for applying to both programs.

 

[Shifty B]

EDIT: Honestly, I would format it to reflect my true self and interests. If that causes them to question my commitment, screw them, that's not the place I would thrive in academically anyway.

So, this is a really interesting and quite useful comment. In your personal statements, interviews, etc, it's more important to reflect what your interests really are rather than what you think they want to hear. I mean, you can tailor your statements or letters a little bit to different types of programs, but you really should have one goal and schooling should be a means to achieve it.

You want a program that's a good fit for you, not the person you're pretending to be in your personal statement!

As for MD programs being concerned that you are applying to MD/PhD programs at the same institution, and vice versa, I think it's fine. You can easily tell both programs that you think MD/PhD is best for you but that you recognize that it is competitive and there are a finite number of spots, therefore you might end up doing an MD first and getting more research experience as a fellow.

 

[MarathonsHurt]

So I applied this cycle to several MSTP and MD-PhD programs, and for a lot of them, I also applied to their MD-only track. My reasoning was that 1) it's a lot easier to get into the PhD program once I am an MD student than the other way around, and 2) I was truly interested in the clinical learning from the medical school and if I needed more research, I could always do a research fellowship.

I agree with Shifty's comment to try to portray yourself as accurately as possible. In my specific case, since research was such a big part of my application, it naturally lent itself to my personal statement, though I framed the majority of my personal statement towards why I honestly wanted to enter medicine. My advice would be not to go too heavily into your research background/interest in the personal statement itself as you will have ample opportunity in the MD-PhD specific essays.

As for the process, it really varies between schools. The majority consider you first for the MD-PhD track, then if rejected, you regress to the MD only track. In brief, if you get an interview for MD-PhD, you usually automatically get an interview for the MD, but the interviews are completely separate. Most MD-PhD interviews are two day affairs with 6-9 total interviews, while most MD interviews are just 2 sessions with some combination of dean/faculty/student interviewer. And at the places I interviewed at, if you were rejected post-interview by the MD adcom, you were automatically rejected from MD-PhD consideration (though really, there's not many cases of someone getting through the much harder MD-PhD interviews but not passing the MD ones).

I've also noticed there is not a whole lot of communication between the MD-PhD adcom and the MD adcom. Though most of them did do a good job of combining their interview days together so that I didn't have to make trips out twice.

 

[Rayne]

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[blazinfury]

I was also curious about something else. When I said apply both MD and MSTP, I was actually referring to just applying MD to schools that I am not applying MSTP to. I agree with what Shifty said because if your research is not at the school, then what is the point of applying there. But lets says that you apply MD to a school that has its own MSTP program, but not your research interests or PIs within you research interest. Won't the question of "why didn't you apply MSTP here pop up?" I assume that it would, but what would be a good answer to it. I assume that saying "I wanted to, but you school doesn't possess my research interests" is grounds for an automatic rejection. What would you guys recommend as a viable answer? The other issue is that I have heard that all schools see to what schools and programs you have applied to. I am not sure if this is true, but if say that it is, I doubt that one can say to an MD program "I am unsure if I want to pursue a research career" since that would be synonymous to lying since they know where you applied and to what programs. Any feedback is much appreciated.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

blazinfury, you are way over thinking this. Apply to programs, MD or MD/PhD or whatever, that you are interested in. Tell them honestly why you are interested in their program and that is it.

If the program does not like you for whatever reason, that sucks, but odds are it is because they have the experience to think you would not fit and flourish in their program. Hopefully you will find the right match, but the only way to do that is to be yourself and present that to the programs.

EDIT: To give an example, I am a rather relaxed informal guy. I made sure to put things in my residency application to reflect this. I am absolutely sure that by doing so, I was rejected by many programs during the initial screen of my application because it probably was not the most politically appropriate way to present myself, but who cares, odds are I would not have fit in there anyway. But they programs that saw that, liked it enough to invite for an interview, and then even felt the need to comment on those specific parts of my application, then I knew this would be a place and group of people I would more likely get along with.

 

[MarathonsHurt]

The other issue is that I have heard that all schools see to what schools and programs you have applied to. I am not sure if this is true, but if say that it is, I doubt that one can say to an MD program "I am unsure if I want to pursue a research career" since that would be synonymous to lying since they know where you applied and to what programs. Any feedback is much appreciated.

Wrong. I know for a fact that different programs do NOT know where you have also applied or interviewed for. In fact, most of your MD interviewers won't even know you applied to the MD-PhD program unless you tell them during your interview.

Different programs only know where you have been accepted after the April 30 deadline and only if they accept you. If they reject you, they have no access to any information regarding where you are accepted.

 

[mcat45]

I'm going to be applying both MD and MD/PhD as well and can definitely understand some of the concerns expressed by the OP. I was wondering if we could possibly generate a list of MD/PhD and MD program committees will consider an applicant for both programs (i.e. an applicant rejected by the MSTP can still be considered for the MD). Also, information about the timeline would be helpful as well. For instance, at some programs MD and MD/PhD admissions runs simultaneously, so an applicant rejected from the MSTP program will not be at a significant disadvantage for MD consideration in terms of early application consideration. Some schools tha fall under this category are WashU and Harvard. What are the other schools? Also, a list of programs that will not consider an applicant for their MD program afer being initially rejected from the MD program would be helpful as well. For instance, I *think* Penn Med will not consider an MSTP applicant rejected to the MSTP program for MD admissions (neuronix, can probably speak better to this than I can). I think Hopkins is/was in this category as well. It would be great if individuals currently in MSTP programs or who recently interviewed at such programs might be able to help out with this.......

 

[Shifty B]

I was under the impression that almost every program will consider you for MD-only even if rejected by the MD/PhD program.

This is usually the case because many applicants rejected from MD/PhD programs are qualified for medical school, but there simply aren't that many dual degree spots. It's possible that I'm wrong, but I'm not sure why they would not consider you...

 

[mcat45]

I think alot of places do, but this isn't the case for all.
taken from the Johns Hopkins MSTP page:http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/mdphd/Admissions/Stats.html

Q: What is the evaluation process for MD-PhD applicants?
A: Unlike most institutions, Johns Hopkins has an entirely separate MD-PhD applicant review process. Applicants do not need to be evaluated by the Medical School Admissions Committee to be accepted, although the School of Medicine’s Admission Committee may select one of the faculty interviewers.
As a result, a student is not automatically reviewed for MD-only admissions if they are rejected for the MD-PhD Program. Exceptional students will be passed on to the Medical School Admissions Committee, however this is by no means guaranteed.

 

[mcat45]

actually, it seems neuronix already answered one of my questions: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=347934&highlight=md-only......see post #8 and 10.....good ol' neuronix....lol

 

[Neuronix]

actually, it seems neuronix already answered one of my questions: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=347934&highlight=md-only......see post #8 and 10.....good ol' neuronix....lol

This question comes up a lot. This is probably the first time I answered it.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=572973&postcount=11

The only problem is when I posted that it was 2003 and it changes over the years. Penn now no longer gives MD consideration to MD/PhD applicants, while UChicago does.

The problem is that many schools say they give MD consideration to MD/PhD applicants, but it almost never happens that an MD/PhD student obtains an MD acceptance there. Sometimes this is because the MD/PhD decision comes too late to be useful for the MD side. Though there are some schools where MD acceptance without MD/PhD acceptance is very common... Those are the places you would want to list more than just what schools claim to do it.

Off the top of my mind these are:
Harvard
Stanford
Baylor
Michigan

I'm sure there's more...

 

[achamess]

I'll vouch for Harvard and Stanford. After I was declined an MSTP interview I was quickly offered an MD interview. I think UCSF could be added to that list as well.

This question comes up a lot. This is probably the first time I answered it.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=572973&postcount=11

The only problem is when I posted that it was 2003 and it changes over the years. Penn now no longer gives MD consideration to MD/PhD applicants, while UChicago does.

The problem is that many schools say they give MD consideration to MD/PhD applicants, but it almost never happens that an MD/PhD student obtains an MD acceptance there. Sometimes this is because the MD/PhD decision comes too late to be useful for the MD side. Though there are some schools where MD acceptance without MD/PhD acceptance is very common... Those are the places you would want to list more than just what schools claim to do it.

Off the top of my mind these are:
Harvard
Stanford
Baylor
Michigan

I'm sure there's more...

 

[FredJuan]

At UCSF, you will be considered separately and simultaneously for MD and MSTP admissions. If you apply to MSTP at UCLA and UCSD, you will be considered for MD-only should you be rejected from their MSTP, pre or post-interview. I'm not too sure about UCI. I applied two years ago, so you definitely should contact the admissions office at each school to get the most updated info.

Thanks for the insight! If at UCLA and UCSD they only consider fon MD once you are rejected for the MSTP, does this also put you at a disadvantage for the MD program because if you are rejected post-interview, many of the MD spots have already been filled?

If that were the case I might just consider applying as an MD applicant there, because while my goal is to do both, I know how competitive these schools are, and as mentioned above translational research is still a possibility with an MD degree alone...

 

[FredJuan]

Also...Is it possible to pick and choose MSTP for some programs and just MD at other schools or is it all or nothing?

 

[dmblue]

It depends for Michigan. If you are unlucky like me, they will reject you in late December when there are only 15 MD interview invites left to send out. Most people get rejected earlier though.

This question comes up a lot. This is probably the first time I answered it.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=572973&postcount=11

The only problem is when I posted that it was 2003 and it changes over the years. Penn now no longer gives MD consideration to MD/PhD applicants, while UChicago does.

The problem is that many schools say they give MD consideration to MD/PhD applicants, but it almost never happens that an MD/PhD student obtains an MD acceptance there. Sometimes this is because the MD/PhD decision comes too late to be useful for the MD side. Though there are some schools where MD acceptance without MD/PhD acceptance is very common... Those are the places you would want to list more than just what schools claim to do it.

Off the top of my mind these are:
Harvard
Stanford
Baylor
Michigan

I'm sure there's more...

 

[Ariodant]

Also...Is it possible to pick and choose MSTP for some programs and just MD at other schools or is it all or nothing?

On the primary I think you get to choose for each individual school whether you want to apply to their combined degree program. On some secondaries they also ask you if you want to be considered for MD-only.

For UCLA and SD, you probably will be at a disadvantage if rejected post-interview. Something you have to weigh before applying.