Applying for Endo Residency in 2023. Chances. Recommendations

[jwakim117]

Hello. I am a practicing dentist of almost 3 years (December will be 3 years). I tried applying this year to become an Endodontist with many many obstacles. Unfortunately I did not hear back from any schools this year, and will try again for the next cycle. I was just seeing if I could get recommendations on how to improve my application?

Practicing Dentistry since Dec 2019. Have worked in Public Health, Private Practice, and Corporate Offices

3.41 Dental School GPA
I had to stay a little later to finish the entirety of the curriculum due to life circumstances, therefore, my GPA was calculated in the Spring of 2019 (around graduation time) before I was able to boost my GPA from 3.1 to 3.4, meaning my class rank that was calculated is sadly in the lower 1/3rd, which is frustrating, because I know if it could be recalculated with my final grades, surely it would be a little higher. I know the bulk of schools I looked into gave a 3.0 minimum to apply, so I would think I am at least qualified to apply. I don't want this to be the end of my journey. So hopefully I can boost my application in other ways.

2 attempts on the ADAT
1st attempt on 6/1/2022:
-ADAT Overall: 490
-Biomedical science-450
-Clinical Science-520
-Statistics-510
2nd attempt on 7/16/2022:
-ADAT Overall: 530
-Biomedical Science: 520
-Clinical Science: 570
-Statistics: 470

After evaluating the statistics of the ADAT, I thought that the average for Endo applicants was around 510, so I thought 530 would be a good score. But I'm guessing I need a 600+ if I take it a 3rd time. I will take it again for sure.

Deadlines. I thought at the time, that a deadline meant the date to where you have to submit your material by, in order for it to be fairly reviewed. However, I learned that some classes were already filled before the deadlines and that interviews start right away., so I will try to apply earlier

I just joined the AAE

For CE courses, what are the best ones to take? Meaning, will hands-on courses stand out vs lecture courses? And if so, can I take them directly through the AAE?

Letters of recommendation. This cycle, I had an Endodontist, a faculty member, an associate, and my former chief dental officer all wrote letters. Should I get different sources for the letters. Do I need to ask them all again next year?

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[emma_m]

From what I know, it is very important when you apply to a specialty program to have most LORs from specialists in the field.
With many schools being P/F I think it’s not the best way to compare candidates and rank lower someone who is in your situation, but PDs may have a different opinion.
If I were you I would try to take as many hands on endo CE courses as I could. Worse case scenario if you don’t get any interview at least you learned something that you can apply in clinical practice and earn your money back.
Apply early! I learned my lesson by applying to a different specialty.
Try to do as much endo as you can and mention that in your PS. If you get an interview, prepare a portfolio to show them your cases so they can see your commitment. Submit cases as poster presentations to endo congresses.
Try to connect with endodontists and offer to volunteer one day per week in their practice. Do all the work they ask you to do and you are allowed to do legally.
Contact the predoc and post doc endo directors from your school and ask them for advice on how to improve. Ask them if there is any research you could do with them as volunteer.
If you can afford, apply broadly.
Never lose hope and don’t give up because the moment you give up, you give your spot to someone else! Good luck!

 

[redchesus]

ADAT: the Biostats section is the best way to bring your score up. The material is narrow in scope so if you really know it, it can really boost your overall score. Neither CrackADAT or ADAT Knockout have great stats sections though. There's a YouTube playlist for USMLE biostats that was super helpful, it's a bit overkill for what's needed for the ADAT but once again, it can really boost your score. Another SDN user also posted this which helped me:

Networking: Probably the most important thing, especially if your application does not have strong numbers. Get your name into the minds of all the directors and faculty and residents. Go to the AAE Meeting and met people. AdComs are sifting through hundreds of highly qualified applications, you need to give them a reason to stop at yours before moving onto the next. One example, I started posting on the AAE Connection forums (just asking questions and being genuinely curious about endo) and had not one but two PDs tell me "Oh yeah, I recognize your name from all your posts." So I think that's how I got those interviews.

Networking 2: Shadow your local endodontists. They will introduce you to their friends who may introduce to their friends who may happen to know an important person in a program, whether it be a faculty member or chief resident. Again, get your name around to the different programs.

Lastly, you need to have your application ready by the time PASS opens, so in mid-May. I asked my letter writers in MARCH to have the letters by ready May.

 

[v_dmd]

Current endo resident here, applied last cycle. Applied to about 15 programs, received 5 interviews and attended 3 of them.

I had 2 yrs of experience, top 15% of my class, did not take adat, no research experience.

I actually got only 1 letter from an endodontist I used to work with, the rest from professors in different specialties. It would help to get more from endodontists, but I think the biggest obstacle in your case is the class rank/gpa.

When I asked program directors what they are looking for when choosing candidates, they all mentioned the ability to finish the course and take the boards. They actually cared less about how well one could do rcts, bc that can be taught.

If I were you, I would try my best to ace the adat.

 

[v_dmd]

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[jwakim117]

Current endo resident here, applied last cycle. Applied to about 15 programs, received 5 interviews and attended 3 of them.

I had 2 yrs of experience, top 15% of my class, did not take adat, no research experience.

I actually got only 1 letter from an endodontist I used to work with, the rest from professors in different specialties. It would help to get more from endodontists, but I think the biggest obstacle in your case is the class rank/gpa.

When I asked program directors what they are looking for when choosing candidates, they all mentioned the ability to finish the course and take the boards. They actually cared less about how well one could do rcts, bc that can be taught.

If I were you, I would try my best to ace the adat.

Yeah definitely. Do you think there are schools that would look at a 600+ ADAT and it would overcome the lower GPA? Have others gotten in with similar stats as mine?

 

[allDAT]

Keep trying. Emma gave you a good response above.

You can’t fix your class rank but it’s a problem. Never the less, there are residents with low class ranks that get interviews and a few that are selected.

Do you mind sharing where you went to school? You’ll want to look for PDs who have selected kids from your program before.

Also apply to the most expensive programs with the largest resident pools to improve your odds.

 

[jwakim117]

Keep trying. Emma gave you a good response above.

You can’t fix your class rank but it’s a problem. Never the less, there are residents with low class ranks that get interviews and a few that are selected.

Do you mind sharing where you went to school? You’ll want to look for PDs who have selected kids from your program before.

Also apply to the most expensive programs with the largest resident pools to improve your odds.

Not at all! I went to UMKC, graduated in 2019. And yeah, I think there is that fear that the class rank is an automatic dealbreaker and that nothing I can do can offset it. But I want to believe, that it's not the case. Is it an obstacle? Yes. But can it be overcome? Yes. Is this accurate? Thank you for taking the time to help me btw, I really appreciate yours and everyone else's thoughtful responses on this.

 

[allDAT]

Not at all! I went to UMKC, graduated in 2019. And yeah, I think there is that fear that the class rank is an automatic dealbreaker and that nothing I can do can offset it. But I want to believe, that it's not the case. Is it an obstacle? Yes. But can it be overcome? Yes. Is this accurate? Thank you for taking the time to help me btw, I really appreciate yours and everyone else's thoughtful responses on this.

Experience can help overcome your class rank but it will absolutely disqualify you from some programs. That’s okay. You should try and identify those programs and not apply - replacing them with programs where you have a shot at landing an interview.

There are some programs that only want people in the top half and some in the top quarter and it depends on the PD at the time. There are few (maybe none) that look for students in the lower half of the class, but there are many PDs that want at least 1 of their residents to have a significant amount of experience as a GD. You can imagine that they don’t want to have to help too many students place good core buildups etc.

I think the question you want to ask yourself and maybe any PDs you can get in touch with us what kind of experience do they find most valuable. Coupled with a strong ADAT score, you may get lucky.

 

[jwakim117]

Experience can help overcome your class rank but it will absolutely disqualify you from some programs. That’s okay. You should try and identify those programs and not apply - replacing them with programs where you have a shot at landing an interview.

There are some programs that only want people in the top half and some in the top quarter and it depends on the PD at the time. There are few (maybe none) that look for students in the lower half of the class, but there are many PDs that want at least 1 of their residents to have a significant amount of experience as a GD. You can imagine that they don’t want to have to help too many students place good core buildups etc.

I think the question you want to ask yourself and maybe any PDs you can get in touch with us what kind of experience do they find most valuable. Coupled with a strong ADAT score, you may get lucky.

Definitely. So if a school states on their website "A "B" average or ranking in the upper third of the graduating class and National Dental Board Exam scores of 85 or higher are expected," I assume a B average corresponds to a 3.0 GPA? And it sounds like they need either that OR the rank? And they mention the boards scores, mine were pass/fail, so do you think they can actually see a numeric score that I can't? Or is it an old guideline for students that were prior the P/F change?

 

[redchesus]

there are many PDs that want at least 1 of their residents to have a significant amount of experience as a GD. You can imagine that they don’t want to have to help too many students place good core buildups etc.

From what I'd seen on the interview trail, in general the larger the cohort (4 or more residents per class), the more the PDs will want to have a mix of experienced versus fresh grad residents. There is definitely a decent amount of relying on co-residents and upperclassmen to guide each new class.

 

[allDAT]

From what I'd seen on the interview trail, in general the larger the cohort (4 or more residents per class), the more the PDs will want to have a mix of experienced versus fresh grad residents. There is definitely a decent amount of relying on co-residents and upperclassmen to guide each new class.

I would agree with that.

 

[allDAT]

Definitely. So if a school states on their website "A "B" average or ranking in the upper third of the graduating class and National Dental Board Exam scores of 85 or higher are expected," I assume a B average corresponds to a 3.0 GPA? And it sounds like they need either that OR the rank? And they mention the boards scores, mine were pass/fail, so do you think they can actually see a numeric score that I can't? Or is it an old guideline for students that were prior the P/F change?

when they’re talking about board scores that would refer to when you got a score pre P/F. As far as I am aware they do not have access to any sort of score associated with P/F boards and that’s where the ADAT is supposed to come into play as some sort of scored substitute.

 

[Strag]

Your application needs to scream endo.

Apply early, network, attend national meetings, endo research, endo CE, score 600+ on ADAT, develop a close relationship with your endodontist, volunteer at your local dental school, talk with the endo program there, attain fellowships in general dentistry, show in your resume that you have commitment to goals, ask for advice, etc etc etc.

When and before you get the interviews, practice. Record yourself, practice with people that would give you honest feedback, know your “why” very well. Once you get an interview, it’s really more about the fit. Ultimately, how does this applicant contribute to our program? That is something you have to really dig in and evaluate.

If you don’t get in? Endo internships. Some GPRS have endo fellowship tracks for second years. Research them, there’s a couple in the US.

I took no for an answer and was committed to attain my goal no matter what. That should be your mentality if you’re truly passionate about endo.

Shadow endo. Make sure it’s something you absolutely want to do before you make the leap and commit.

Wish you the best. It gets harder and harder to get through the door each year because there’s so many great and deserving applicants.

 

[jwakim117]

Your application needs to scream endo.

Apply early, network, attend national meetings, endo research, endo CE, score 600+ on ADAT, develop a close relationship with your endodontist, volunteer at your local dental school, talk with the endo program there, attain fellowships in general dentistry, show in your resume that you have commitment to goals, ask for advice, etc etc etc.

When and before you get the interviews, practice. Record yourself, practice with people that would give you honest feedback, know your “why” very well. Once you get an interview, it’s really more about the fit. Ultimately, how does this applicant contribute to our program? That is something you have to really dig in and evaluate.

If you don’t get in? Endo internships. Some GPRS have endo fellowship tracks for second years. Research them, there’s a couple in the US.

I took no for an answer and was committed to attain my goal no matter what. That should be your mentality if you’re truly passionate about endo.

Shadow endo. Make sure it’s something you absolutely want to do before you make the leap and commit.

Wish you the best. It gets harder and harder to get through the door each year because there’s so many great and deserving applicants.

I love this! Thank you for the positivity and belief in me. I agree, I will take no for an answer 🙂 thanks again!

 

[jwakim117]

Your application needs to scream endo.

Apply early, network, attend national meetings, endo research, endo CE, score 600+ on ADAT, develop a close relationship with your endodontist, volunteer at your local dental school, talk with the endo program there, attain fellowships in general dentistry, show in your resume that you have commitment to goals, ask for advice, etc etc etc.

When and before you get the interviews, practice. Record yourself, practice with people that would give you honest feedback, know your “why” very well. Once you get an interview, it’s really more about the fit. Ultimately, how does this applicant contribute to our program? That is something you have to really dig in and evaluate.

If you don’t get in? Endo internships. Some GPRS have endo fellowship tracks for second years. Research them, there’s a couple in the US.

I took no for an answer and was committed to attain my goal no matter what. That should be your mentality if you’re truly passionate about endo.

Shadow endo. Make sure it’s something you absolutely want to do before you make the leap and commit.

Wish you the best. It gets harder and harder to get through the door each year because there’s so many great and deserving applicants.

I was going to ask, is there certain CE that they look for (such as hands-on courses at UCLA) or is it more the total number of CE hours? I am planning on going to the Insight Track event in Vegas this year for CE (official AAE event) but the date overlaps a hands-on 6 day CE course at UCLA, so I wanted to choose the wiser option. In terms of Endo research, how would I be able to do it? Can I do it through a University, or is there another way where I can perform it? Since I am no longer a student.

 

[EndoDreamBig]

I was going to ask, is there certain CE that they look for (such as hands-on courses at UCLA) or is it more the total number of CE hours? I am planning on going to the Insight Track event in Vegas this year for CE (official AAE event) but the date overlaps a hands-on 6 day CE course at UCLA, so I wanted to choose the wiser option. In terms of Endo research, how would I be able to do it? Can I do it through a University, or is there another way where I can perform it? Since I am no longer a student.

If I were you, I would attend the Vegas Insight Track and meet the PDs there and build up connections. You could take CE's online through the AAE OnDemand. For research, it will be easy to do it while you are in AEGD/GPR. However, if you want to do research while you are working, I would reach out to the nearby dental school programs and ask for any opportunity. Another way is to do the research yourself and present it at the AAE as a table clinic presentation or poster presentation, but it will be challenging to do all of it yourself IMO.

 

[redchesus]

I was going to ask, is there certain CE that they look for (such as hands-on courses at UCLA) or is it more the total number of CE hours? I am planning on going to the Insight Track event in Vegas this year for CE (official AAE event) but the date overlaps a hands-on 6 day CE course at UCLA, so I wanted to choose the wiser option. In terms of Endo research, how would I be able to do it? Can I do it through a University, or is there another way where I can perform it? Since I am no longer a student.

I would do the AAE event and try to network there. PDs mostly don't care for endo CEs geared towards GPs (they're all quite lacking tbh, having taken many of them myself).
I would only do the UCLA course if UCLA Endo is your top choice and you absolutely have to go there.

 

[jwakim117]

Thank you everyone for the amazing advice! It really means a lot.

For the ADAT, I used Knockout for both attempts, and didn't know if I should try Crack the ADAT instead/also? Has anyone used Crack the ADAT? I do like the suggestions from redchesus about the USMLE biostats and definitely will watch them.