Applying for Fellowships

[chauffeur]

---

Members don't see this ad.

when applying for fellowships as a PM&R resident, besides letters of recommendation, a good interview rotation, and maybe in-service examination grades, what else does one submit?

are med school grades and Step 1, 2, and 3 factored into the equation, or is all that stuff irrelevant? the PM&R boards are taken AFTER graduation now, so something that i thought would be a very important determing factor has no significance.

this seems odd to me. you need to rock you medicine boards in order to land a good fellowship. but in PM&R this is not the case. am i missing something?

 

[bbbmd]

when applying for fellowships as a PM&R resident, besides letters of recommendation, a good interview rotation, and maybe in-service examination grades, what else does one submit?

are med school grades and Step 1, 2, and 3 factored into the equation, or is all that stuff irrelevant? the PM&R boards are taken AFTER graduation now, so something that i thought would be a very important determing factor has no significance.

this seems odd to me. you need to rock you medicine boards in order to land a good fellowship. but in PM&R this is not the case. am i missing something?

After speaking with the seniors in my program that decided to do fellowships, pain sub-specialty fellowships are the most competitive. Most of these programs do not really consider your step scores or in-service examinations. Good scores will surely help, but they are looking more at you general interest and reasons why you chose to pursue further training in that subspecialty. The factors that really count are: research, letters from prominent attendings in the field, electives at your program of interest, your overall performance as a resident. They look at evidence during your residency that you have a solid understanding of the sub-specialty you chose. If you want a pain fellowship, your CV should emphasize research in pain, lectures you gave on a pain topic, conferences that you went to on pain management and even societies you joined relating to pain. Just like applying to residency, you need to show that you know what you want and why you want it!

Timeline is also important. Since we dont have a centralized fellowship application service like our internal medicine counterparts, the earlier you apply the better the chance you will get an interview. This is especially true for the more competitive pain and spine programs out there.

 

[chauffeur]

After speaking with the seniors in my program that decided to do fellowships, pain sub-specialty fellowships are the most competitive. Most of these programs do not really consider your step scores or in-service examinations. Good scores will surely help, but they are looking more at you general interest and reasons why you chose to pursue further training in that subspecialty. The factors that really count are: research, letters from prominent attendings in the field, electives at your program of interest, your overall performance as a resident. They look at evidence during your residency that you have a solid understanding of the sub-specialty you chose. If you want a pain fellowship, your CV should emphasize research in pain, lectures you gave on a pain topic, conferences that you went to on pain management and even societies you joined relating to pain. Just like applying to residency, you need to show that you know what you want and why you want it!

Timeline is also important. Since we dont have a centralized fellowship application service like our internal medicine counterparts, the earlier you apply the better the chance you will get an interview. This is especially true for the more competitive pain and spine programs out there.

thanks for the info.
how long do residents typically do away electives for (1,2,3,4 wks)at these places? some of the bigger name places do not allow you to do away electives and therefore you have to use your vaction time. i imagine that this can be very limiting. however, you will get a solid education about the sub-specialty field and recommendations from name attendings. people from these programs always seem to get the fellowships they want.

also, does anyone know what proportion of PM&R fellowships (let's say pain, sports, and msk) are filled by residents in their repsective programs? there probably is no such hard data, but i'd like to have some idea, whether it's word of mouth or whatever.

 

[bbbmd]

thanks for the info.
how long do residents typically do away electives for (1,2,3,4 wks)at these places? some of the bigger name places do not allow you to do away electives and therefore you have to use your vaction time. i imagine that this can be very limiting. however, you will get a solid education about the sub-specialty field and recommendations from name attendings. people from these programs always seem to get the fellowships they want.

also, does anyone know what proportion of PM&R fellowships (let's say pain, sports, and msk) are filled by residents in their repsective programs? there probably is no such hard data, but i'd like to have some idea, whether it's word of mouth or whatever.

We have 2 months elective time to do away rotations, however we do not get paid, + we pay for our own malpractice. Many of the residents still do it, but I probably will not. I will rely on the other aspects of my CV. It was interesting because one of the seniors did 2 months away pain rotations at 2 different programs and didnt even end up at the ones he rotated at. That tells me it is not mandatory to do an away elective, at least for the residents from my program. He still got into a very good program.

I am not sure how many programs out there take residents from within their own institution. I hope someone on this forum could enlighten us and maybe tell us which programs do take their own. I wouldnt waste my time and energy applying to those.

 

[Disciple]

We have 2 months elective time to do away rotations, however we do not get paid, + we pay for our own malpractice.QUOTE]


That's the same deal at my program. I know most of the PM&R spine fellowships offer electives, but generally speaking, are these a one month hands on experience or more of a week long pre-interview type of thing?

The GME office at my program is willing to pay my salary for 1-2 week "observerships", but not away rotations of 1-2 months. At this point, I don't know if i can take a $5,000 hit plus pay for my own malpractice insurance and out-of-town living expenses.

 

[bbbmd]

The PM&R spine/musculoskeletal fellowship programs that allow residents to do electives for 1 wk to 2 months are listed in the PASSOR fellowship guide/list. Maybe David can post this on this site or provide us with a link (if thats OK with the PASSOR Gods).

There are some interviews that are an hour long (during the AAPM&R meeting) to a week long. I dont think the week long interviews are counted as an actual elective rotation by the fellowships, just part of the interview process. One spine program with a week long interview process is UPENN's program. From what I understand most programs' interview process takes 1-2 days. The long interview process of many programs may make it difficult for residents to get multiple days off to interview, therefore limiting the number of programs they decide to apply to and visit.

 

[drusso]

Unfortunately I don't have a link or think that the fellowship exist in a PDF format. They are searchable on the AAPM&R fellowship data base.

The PM&R spine/musculoskeletal fellowship programs that allow residents to do electives for 1 wk to 2 months are listed in the PASSOR fellowship guide/list. Maybe David can post this on this site or provide us with a link (if thats OK with the PASSOR Gods).

There are some interviews that are an hour long (during the AAPM&R meeting) to a week long. I dont think the week long interviews are counted as an actual elective rotation by the fellowships, just part of the interview process. One spine program with a week long interview process is UPENN's program. From what I understand most programs' interview process takes 1-2 days. The long interview process of many programs may make it difficult for residents to get multiple days off to interview, therefore limiting the number of programs they decide to apply to and visit.

 

[paz5559]

Unfortunately I don't have a link or think that the fellowship exist in a PDF format. They are searchable on the AAPM&R fellowship data base.

https://www.e-aapmr.org/imis/passoronly/attachmt/FE Directory 2004.pdf

 

[paz5559]

At this point, I don't know if i can take a $5,000 hit plus pay for my own malpractice insurance and out-of-town living expenses.

Firstly, if you are really making $60K/yr, I am in the wrong program.

Secondly, you have invested several hundered thousand dollars in your education. The idea that you would not take the hit, even if it is 5K in total, in order to earn between $2-300k/yr at minumum more than the majority of your colleagues in PM&R, seems amazingly short sighted, IMHO.

 

[Disciple]

Firstly, if you are really making $60K/yr, I am in the wrong program.

Secondly, you have invested several hundered thousand dollars in your education. The idea that you would not take the hit, even if it is 5K in total, in order to earn between $2-300k/yr at minumum more than the majority of your colleagues in PM&R, seems amazingly short sighted, IMHO.

Actually, that was a rough estimate for net losses over two months.

I guess that's the question I've been trying to answer. Is the away rotation really necessary?


Thanks for the info, I had no idea 350K was a minimum expectation for an interventional pain specialist.

 

[DigableCat]

Thanks for the info, I had no idea 350K was a minimum expectation for an interventional pain specialist.

Not everyone I know has been offered huge salaries post fellowship. One friend of mine was offered 320K in New Orleans but I think he was joining a practice that wanted him to set a Interventional Pain section. So I think he was getting bonuses, medical directorship, etc. And somehow, I hardly doubt that he will be working 36hr/week with 8 weeks of vacation and weekends off. Read: He will be working...hard. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Another person I knew of is starting I think at 180K. With the ortho group wanting something akin to 80% of her productivity after a certain level. Personally I think that was a crappy offer but it's in Jersey(where she wanted to go).

And another guy I know that's working in Connecticut was also starting around 170K. But he's also an anesthesiologist, so he'll be doing some OR work and making extra.

As with any field, I think it comes down to

1. Supply/demand: If you want to move to a more populated area with more pain doctors per square inch of land you're likely going to start off making less
2. Productivity: The more you work, the more you bill, the more you make.
3. Potential for salary growth: Sometimes you don't get the most optimal deal when you join a group, and you have to work a few years before being offered partnership...and that's when the long awaited post pain medicine fellowship salary kicks in.

Of course you can take this all with a grain of salt from me...these have just been my observations talking to people.