applying for residency or fellowship - where is the discrimination strongest?

[oreosandsake]

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[JaggerPlate]

the numbers of DO's that get into competitive fellowships are incredibly small.

Define 'competitive' and 'incredibly.' ??? DOs complete and practice after completing fellowships all the time. Wouldn't it make sense that fellowship candidates would be judged by where/how they completed their residency??? Meaning that if you completed an allopathic IM residency you would be judged the same as any MD coming from the same residency position??

 

[flumazenil]

while I am NOT a DO student, the hospital I am at has a very reputable Internal medicine and surgery program and has a total of 3 DO's in those programs. From subtle talk and some direct word of mouth by other residents, the DO's are not viewed the same as their MD counterparts- that has been my observation. I also noticed that the attendings(American) that are considered young (40's) have a slight undertone towards DO's- and I am in a DO friendly state. just my observation. However, i am not convinced that this "discrimination" is enough to hold you back from attaining your goals.

 

[oreosandsake]

asf

 

[JaggerPlate]

competitive: exactly how i put it.

cardiology, GI, nephrology, hemonc...

incredibly small =

NRMP fellowship match 2008
ex: GI - out of 325 spots, only 10 went to D.O.s

cardiology - 699 spots, 25 DO
hemonc - 424 spots, 12 DO.

Orthopaedic hand surgery
136 spots, 7 DO.

reproductive endocrinology
38 spots, 1 DO filled.

these numbers are obviously below the numbers that go to GOOD (competitive, academic, big name) residencies, and would more than likely be interested in doing a competitive fellowship.

25 out of how many DO applicants???? 12 out of ... how many DO applicants??? if there are 700 spots and only 25 DOs get accepted, yeah ... it looks like there would be some type of bias. HOWEVER, if only 40 DO students applied and 25 were accepted, then these stats could be extrapolated to compare to the percent of MD applied vs accepted. DOs represent less than 10% of physicians, so I can't imagine they represent a huge portion of the applicant pool. Plus, if you are shooting for big academic fellowships ONLY, then this is going to lessen chances -for MD and DO - and I'm also assuming you are completing ruling out DO fellowships???

 

[adismo]

yes very super incredibly small. discrimination rampant. blood in the streets. no sense in trying.

 

[Spooner13]

What about Peds Hem/onc? Is it considered a competitive fellowship that D.O.'s would have a difficult time getting into?

Sorry if I'm not supposed to post in the medical student forum, but I'm really interested in Osteopathic Medicine and Peds Hem/onc.

Thanks

 

[DragonWell]

applying for residency or fellowship - where is the discrimination strongest?

I'd love to be proven wrong, but beyond the NRMP numbers you already posted, I don't think you will get anything more solid than anecdotes to answer your question.

With that said, I have heard several anecdotes from DOs who matched and were very successful in good university IM programs but were flat out told by fellowship directors at their programs that they would not accept DOs. (or FMGs, BTW) As I said, this is anecdotal, and I suspect depends greatly on the individual fellowship director, but it does seem that some programs which are DO-friendly for general IM may be less so for fellowships.

Also based on what I have heard, the flip-side to this is that certain DO IM residencies have extremely high rates of placing their residents into in-house fellowships, so if you do your IM there, you are all but assured of getting your fellowship, even something competitive like Cards.

I'm thinking about IM and fellowships, and this situation makes it a tough decision: Either go to a smaller, community based DO program and have a very good chance at a fellowship of your choice, or go for a large, university-based program and risk hitting resistance when pursuing your fellowship. Anybody else seeing the situation like this?

 

[JaggerPlate]

With that said, I have heard several anecdotes from DOs who matched and were very successful in good university IM programs but were flat out told by fellowship directors at their programs that they would not accept DOs. (or FMGs, BTW) As I said, this is anecdotal, and I suspect depends greatly on the individual fellowship director, but it does seem that some programs which are DO-friendly for general IM may be less so for fellowships.

This doesn't make sense to me. Why would one be accepted and excel in an allo residency just to be looked down upon as a second class citizen when applying for a fellowship??? Wouldn't directors care where/how well you did in residency, not where you were educated before you got there??? It would be like a medical school rejecting you for a candidate from the same undergrad because they didn't like the way you performed in high school??? Makes no sense.

 

[oreosandsake]

hmm

 

[JaggerPlate]

you really have no idea if you think only that many DO's are interested in IM fellowships. there are at least 15 in my class with usmle step 1 scores 230-250 who are gunning for academic residencies thinking that they will get into cards, GI, etc one day.

Trust me, I was just throwing out numbers to make a point. If I can't see the data, then I really can't take back what I said, but I do know that '15' people in one med student's class at one med school isn't going to cut it for me personally. I'm sure it's tough, it's probably tough for MD students too. Sounds like something you'll just have to work hard and push through. Sorry about that.

maybe the environment will change in 5-6 years. it probably wont.

Very unlikely that things will become less competitive anywhere. All I can say is good luck.

Re DO fellowships
have you seen how many spots in these fellowships are even available? count them, on ONE hand per field.

Cardiology: 21 programs
Endocrinology: 3 programs
Gastroenterology: 9 programs
Hem/Onc: 4 programs
Interventional Cards: 8 programs
Nephrology: 6 programs
Oncology: 3 programs

May not seem like a lot per applicant, but I think if you really wanted to be a cardiologist - for example - it would be foolish to disregard applying to a programs RESTRICTED to DO applicants simply because it doesn't have the shiny academic name you're looking for.

Keep your spirits high jagger, maybe you'll be the one to break the glass ceiling. this post wasn't created to be inflammatory, but it seems like a topic most DO students don't realize before they are 2+ years into IM.

I doubt I'll be the one to break any ceilings, and I didn't take any offense to your post - and hope you didn't take any from mine. I also wanted to say that I'm not trying to be the naive, wide-eyed pre-med who thinks you can match integrated plastics at a 'DO friendly' MD program if you work hard. I guess my point is that if you really want it, there are options to specializing after IM. However, if people restrict themselves to certain areas or 'big academic programs' then the field is going to be much smaller and more difficult despite the letters behind your name.

 

[DrMidlife]

Oh good lord.

First, here's the report the OP is citing: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2008.pdf.

Second, the NRMP match is not all-inclusive. There are fellowships that don't use the service. I don't know how many (exercise left to the reader).

Third, a TOTAL of 365 DOs applied to the NRMP fellowship match. 60% of DOs matched. 3507 MDs applied; about 82% of MDs matched.

OMG yawn.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Oh good lord.

First, here's the report the OP is citing: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2008.pdf.

Second, the NRMP match is not all-inclusive. There are fellowships that don't use the service. I don't know how many (exercise left to the reader).

Third, a TOTAL of 365 DOs applied to the NRMP fellowship match. 60% of DOs matched. 3507 MDs applied; about 82% of MDs matched.

OMG yawn.

::::Cyber Hug:::: 👍

 

[group_theory]

One thing to keep in mind is that you actually need to statistically analyze the numbers (and it's not as simple as percentage). If the sample is too small, it may be underpowered to draw any conclusion (or confirm a null hypothesis). While the numbers may look convincing, the p value may tell a different tale.

Now there are many variables that go into fellowship. My guess is there are too many variables and outliers to draw any statistical conclusion


Yay for EBM and journal club 😴

 

[DragonWell]

This doesn't make sense to me. Why would one be accepted and excel in an allo residency just to be looked down upon as a second class citizen when applying for a fellowship??? Wouldn't directors care where/how well you did in residency, not where you were educated before you got there??? It would be like a medical school rejecting you for a candidate from the same undergrad because they didn't like the way you performed in high school??? Makes no sense.

Whether it makes sense or not, some fellowship directors appear to feel that it could hurt the reputation of their program to accept DOs, even DOs who excelled in their residency. I just reiterate this point since I have talked to several DO fellows who experienced this situation and passed it along as something to watch out for. As I said before, I'd like to see some solid numbers, but I'm doubtful any will be forthcoming.

This might be a good question to pose in the IM forum, since unless they are interacting with DO fellows, it's something that most DO students are probably somewhat insulated from. Surely there's some DOs around applying to Cards, GI etc. They'd be the ones to ask.

BTW, I don't see the take-home message here as being that certain sub-specialties are "closed" to DOs, rather that it pays to go into things with as much info as possible. If I do decide to pursue IM, and interview at allopathic programs, I will certainly be doing my best to feel out fellowship director's attitudes upfront. Getting your residency approved by the AOA also opens up some other fellowship options in case your original plans don't work out.

 

[kristing]

What about Peds Hem/onc? Is it considered a competitive fellowship that D.O.'s would have a difficult time getting into?

Sorry if I'm not supposed to post in the medical student forum, but I'm really interested in Osteopathic Medicine and Peds Hem/onc.

Thanks

Peds fellowships are much easier to get into vs medicine fellowships, especially heme-onc (allergy and cards are the hardest). I would not sweat it. Do all of the things that make you a good applicant for a fellowship as early as possible as much as you can (this means doing research, really), and you should be ok.

 

[Spooner13]

Peds fellowships are much easier to get into vs medicine fellowships, especially heme-onc (allergy and cards are the hardest). I would not sweat it. Do all of the things that make you a good applicant for a fellowship as early as possible as much as you can (this means doing research, really), and you should be ok.

Thanks so much for the help. I really appreciate it. Should I try to do research in med school and residency?

 

[kristing]

both. do both

 

[Spooner13]

both. do both

Thanks again

 

[Terpskins99]

competitive: exactly how i put it.

cardiology, GI, nephrology, hemonc...

incredibly small =

NRMP fellowship match 2008
ex: GI - out of 325 spots, only 10 went to D.O.s

cardiology - 699 spots, 25 DO
hemonc - 424 spots, 12 DO.

Orthopaedic hand surgery
136 spots, 7 DO.

reproductive endocrinology
38 spots, 1 DO filled.

these numbers are obviously below the numbers that go to GOOD (competitive, academic, big name) residencies, and would more than likely be interested in doing a competitive fellowship.

Why would someone start a thread asking a question to which they already claim to know the answer to? What an obnoxious idiot.

 

[oreosandsake]

=(

 

[DannMann99]

where is the discrimination strongest?

probably in the white vs. black debate

 

[Terpskins99]

wow twerpskin

How original.

I always thought you seemed like a nice online poster.

Generally speaking, I am. But when someone like you pops in and starts something *****ic like getting argumentative with people trying to advise you, you deserve to be treated accordingly.

obviously some people don't realize how difficult it continues to be for osteopathic physicians to get into fellowships.

And who are "some people"? Fellowship is difficult to obtain for anyone. There are no shoe-ins for anything. There is no one rule that applies for every program director. You make yourself competitive. Period. You wan anecdotes? Fine. I know a DO that obtained a surgical fellowship at Johns Hopkins. His general surgery residency was at a small community hospital. Does that mean that every DO from a general surgery residency at a community program will be able to do the same? No, of course not.

anyhow, I'm surprised you can stoop so low to name calling, since you are so high up on your horse.

Here's the difference. I appreciate and respect help when it is being provided to me. I don't insult the source. And I never claimed to be on any horse, though I believe your attitude places you beneath most of the posters in this thread.

 

[JaggerPlate]

wow twerpskin

Wait, wait ... isn't it Terpskins, not Twerps .... OOHHHHHH I get it. TWERPskin. That's good.

 

[oreosandsake]

How original.

LOL

THANKS. 😀


"*****ic"... man, you do have a dirty mouth.

Not sure why you woke up on the wrong side of the cave today but I hope you don't have an aneurysm or stroke out.
you might only be left with the mean words you use.

Like Tupac said, "I ain't mad at cha" and I will not be checking this thread for more insults. so if you want you can PM me and write all the insulting things you would like.

Jaggerplate and Dragonwell were actually trying to add to the discussion. But yourself, I hope you apply for that IM/plastics/aerospace medicine spot, and get into MGH fellowship for whatever uber competitive thing you are gunning for, and don't have to step on too many people or run over any puppies to get there.


hahaha...twerpskins, lol 😀

 

[Terpskins99]

Jaggerplate and Dragonwell were actually trying to add to the discussion. But yourself, I hope you apply for that IM/plastics/aerospace medicine spot, and get into MGH fellowship for whatever uber competitive thing you are gunning for, and don't have to step on too many people or run over any puppies to get there.

Yeah, you nailed it. That is exactly why I post on hSDN/pre-osteo/pre-allo/osteo/allo/USMLE forums. So I can step on so many people and brag about the uber competitive thing I am gunning for.

You're clueless.

 

[group_theory]

Keep this discussion civil and on topic or this thread will be closed and posters will be penalized.