Applying to both EM and IM residencies??

[TPBC]

Hi,
I am interested in both EM and IM and was wondering if it is even possible to apply to both programs during the same match cycle. I'm trying to stay in the same geographical area and there is only one EM program. I figured I would apply to that EM program and several area IM programs if it was possible. I'm sure I would need to do some creative writing on the personal statement to have it apply to both and not exclude either. Anyone know?

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[Winged Scapula]

You can apply to as many specialties as you like and can afford, during the same match cycle.

You can write personal statements tailored for each and submit them to the respective specialty programs.

There are combined EM/IM residency programs: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=394551

 

[Blitz2006]

You can apply to as many specialties as you like and can afford, during the same match cycle.

You can write personal statements tailored for each and submit them to the respective specialty programs.

There are combined EM/IM residency programs: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=394551

Hmm, I'm also interested in apply to General Surgery and IM.

I'm not too familiar with ERAS, but I was under the impression that there is only one application form for NRMP? So it is possible to have '2' application forms, 1 for Gen. Surgery, 1 for IM?

Won't that hurt my chances for IM if the hospital sees my "General Surgery" application?

(Sorry for hijacking your thread TPBC, but I think our questions are along the same lines)

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Hmm, I'm also interested in apply to General Surgery and IM.

I'm not too familiar with ERAS, but I was under the impression that there is only one application form for NRMP? So it is possible to have '2' application forms, 1 for Gen. Surgery, 1 for IM?

Won't that hurt my chances for IM if the hospital sees my "General Surgery" application?

(Sorry for hijacking your thread TPBC, but I think our questions are along the same lines)

You can attach a different personal statement to every single program if you wanted to. There is no reason you can't apply to two different types of programs. I would think that the only real trick is getting enough letters of recommendation.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hmm, I'm also interested in apply to General Surgery and IM.

Really? That's an odd combination.

I'm not too familiar with ERAS, but I was under the impression that there is only one application form for NRMP? So it is possible to have '2' application forms, 1 for Gen. Surgery, 1 for IM?

There is only one application form for NRMP. You are applying to participate in the match, it doesn't matter how many specialties you apply to. When you use ERAS, you will apply to X number of programs, submit personal statements for each specialty and LORs for each. Then when you submit your rank order list for NRMP, you will do so in whatever order you wish.

Won't that hurt my chances for IM if the hospital sees my "General Surgery" application?

It might. But your application doesn't go to the "hospital". It goes to the specific department and it is unlikely that the IM department and Gen Surg departments are discussing their applicants with each other. What *may* happen, and has been rumored to occur, is that someone will see you when you are interviewing for the other specialty and then inform the other department. Thus, this can be tricky especially for such disparate specialties as IM and Gen Surg. It would be hard to try and discuss why you can't make up your mind.

 

[dragonfly99]

If I were applying to general surg. and IM, I would apply to programs @different hospitals so I didn't have to worry about them finding out.
I don't actually think it's that weird to like surgery and IM both...a lot of surgeons are always repeating that mantra, because they think that IM docs don't like working with their hands and/or aren't good at it, but in truth I think there are a lot of students who like both. IM and general surgery in particular have a lot in common, in terms of having to manage a lot of general medical issues, and really wanting to do "hands on" medicine and be a doctor's doctor, and not minding taking call, if you want to be any good at them.

 

[Winged Scapula]

If I were applying to general surg. and IM, I would apply to programs @different hospitals so I didn't have to worry about them finding out.
I don't actually think it's that weird to like surgery and IM both...a lot of surgeons are always repeating that mantra, because they think that IM docs don't like working with their hands and/or aren't good at it, but in truth I think there are a lot of students who like both. IM and general surgery in particular have a lot in common, in terms of having to manage a lot of general medical issues, and really wanting to do "hands on" medicine and be a doctor's doctor, and not minding taking call, if you want to be any good at them.

This isn't about whether or not internists like doing things with their hands or aren't good at it.

I realize that a lot of people like surgery and IM, but frankly, the vast majority decide they are cut out for one or the other. Many many students like being the in the OR, but decide the lifestyle isn't for them, or they don't like the culture, or the training or the lifestyle after residency and find they would be happier in another specialty.

Its fairly odd to not be able to choose between the two, IMHO.

 

[DarthNeurology]

Its fairly odd to not be able to choose between the two, IMHO.

There is a lot that is to be liked about both internal medicine and surgery. I have seen several people who wanted to have both an inpatient/outpatient primary care type medicine practice and ALSO to be surgeons in the OR, and they went into Ob/Gyn. They said that only Ob/Gyn allowed them to be both surgeons doing a variety of surgical procedures, as well as being primary care physicians for patients, both of which seem true to me as Ob/Gyns can do a lot of surgery, and also are the primary care physician for pregnant women and can treat just about anything that they have such as hypertension, diabetes . . .

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yes, there IS a lot to be liked about both IM and Surgery. That is NOT the issue.

Can you honestly say that you have seen a plethora of people applying to both IM and General Surgery? I still submit that it is uncommon.

People who like IM and want to do procedures do a procedural based IM fellowship.

People who like GS and can put up with all the BS do GS.

People who like medicine and want to do procedures more than medicine choose Urology or ENT or perhaps Derm.

People who like female patients, patient oriented care and like to do some surgery choose Ob-Gyn.

People rarely apply to both IM and General Surgery as the fields, the lifestyle, the practice and the culture are vastly different. Choosing between the two doesn't mean you have to dislike the other.

 

[DarthNeurology]

Yes, there IS a lot to be liked about both IM and Surgery. That is NOT the issue.

Can you honestly say that you have seen a plethora of people applying to both IM and General Surgery?

I have seen more than one person apply for medicine and surgery with the thinking that if they didn't get general surgery then they would be happy with internal medicine, not a plethora maybe, but it does happen. Medical students who can't decide are often advised to apply for internal medicine as it has a plethora of fellowships, many of which are procedural based like GI.


Internal medicine and general surgery are a lot alike in terms of patient population. I am sure there are a lot of newly minted fourth years who plan on applying for both general surgery and internal medicine and then figure they will sort it all out later. Both cardiology and surgery are similar in terms of hours of commitment needed and heavy work loads in many cases after residency. Considering how busy IM is today, I think it is comparable to lifestyle in many instances to general surgery or at least to some surgical specialties like vascular surgery where the surgeon sits there for 3 hours doing a procedure they know by heart while listening to the radio versus an IM attending who is supervising three resident teams . . . If I wanted to live, eat and breath medicine and procedures for 24 hours a day I would do cardiology, which can be pretty intense and very intellectually challenging, some general surgeons are a bit wishy-washy and do only 3 or 4 cases a day or less while getting unecessarily flustered and stressed out. Surgeons seem to want to make surgery seem more difficult and mysterious than it really is.

It is hard for fourth years to figure out what they want to do, sometimes even folks who have finished residency go back and do another residency. Everybody says and wants to feel that they had a perfect "gut reaction" for their choosen field, but I think everybody sometimes think what if. . . what if I did family medicine? What if I did internal medicine?

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I would really encourage people considering application to two separate specialties to try to narrow things down.

Sit down with a trusted advisor (i.e. maybe an attending in a totally different field) and try to hash it out over a beer.

The application process is difficult, interviews get annoying and expensive. The night before Match Day I think you will be better off if your only question is "where am I going?" not "what am I going to do for the rest of my life?"

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with amoryblaine in the sense that I think it can be hard to apply to two separate specialties at once. It's hard getting that many LOR's together.
Also, the general surgeons will not like you if they find out you are applying to any other specialty (such as a surgical subspecialty, or IM, etc.). In general they tend to feel it shows a lack of commitment to the field. It may be best to discuss this with a disinterested 3rd party (i.e. professor who is neither a surgeon nor an internist). Those two specialties tend to have some prejudices against each other, for whatever reason, so you may not get a lot of helpful advice in this dilemma talking to a surgeon or internist.

I think it's unfortunate that in the US doing an extra year/transitional year to decide what you want to do, and get to see and experience more in the hospital, is not really an option. Medical students are forced to make these decisions before they really have enough experience to do so.

In the OP's case, if he/she is still in 3rd year, there is still time to decide. If I were in that situation, I'd set up both medicine and surgery sub-I's and try to use the next few months to decide. Doing multiple sub-I's makes your 4th year harder/more challenging but you will also learn more. I don't think it's weird that you like both specialties, but I wouldn't advertise that fact while you are rotating on the other service.

I also agree with darth's opinion about ob/gyn, and I considered it briefly for exactly the reasons he outlines. Another surgical specialty that has some things in common w/medicine is ENT.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have seen more than one person apply for medicine and surgery with the thinking that if they didn't get general surgery then they would be happy with internal medicine, not a plethora maybe, but it does happen. Medical students who can't decide are often advised to apply for internal medicine as it has a plethora of fellowships, many of which are procedural based like GI.

Which is exactly what I said above. But please lets not get into a pissing argument where you say "I've seen it happen 3 times so it must happen a lot more." The fact of the matter is that is is NOT common hence my suprise.

Internal medicine and general surgery are a lot alike in terms of patient population. I am sure there are a lot of newly minted fourth years who plan on applying for both general surgery and internal medicine and then figure they will sort it all out later. Both cardiology and surgery are similar in terms of hours of commitment needed and heavy work loads in many cases after residency. Considering how busy IM is today, I think it is comparable to lifestyle in many instances to general surgery or at least to some surgical specialties like vascular surgery where the surgeon sits there for 3 hours doing a procedure they know by heart while listening to the radio versus an IM attending who is supervising three resident teams .

Nor does this need to be about which field works harder. Everyone works long and hard hours but I think even you would agree that the cultures are different. If you want to claim that supervising 3 resident teams is harder than doing surgery, that is fine. I have no need to prove that I or anyone else works any harder than any other field.

. . If I wanted to live, eat and breath medicine and procedures for 24 hours a day I would do cardiology, which can be pretty intense and very intellectually challenging, some general surgeons are a bit wishy-washy and do only 3 or 4 cases a day or less while getting unecessarily flustered and stressed out. Surgeons seem to want to make surgery seem more difficult and mysterious than it really is.

Again, you are taking your own extremely unpleasant experience as a surgical clerk and assuming it is that way all around. I don't know any general surgeons who "only do 3 or 4 cases a day and get stressed out". If they are in academics, they have a lot more work to do outside of the OR, because you better believe that university hospitals keep track of the money the surgeons bring in. If it ain't in the OR, they better be bringing it in elsewhere. In PP, if you are only doing 3 or 4 cases a day, on a regular basis, you are in debt because that won't pay the bills. And as for the stress, I think you underestimate how stressful being a surgeon is - the constant threat, especially in an academic environment, of complications, of law suits, etc. hangs over everyone's head.

There is nothing particularly difficult or mysterious about surgery and every decent surgeon will tell you that. That is in YOUR own mind.

It is hard for fourth years to figure out what they want to do, sometimes even folks who have finished residency go back and do another residency. Everybody says and wants to feel that they had a perfect "gut reaction" for their choosen field, but I think everybody sometimes think what if. . . what if I did family medicine? What if I did internal medicine?

Obviously. My med school roommate had a difficult time choosing her specialty. But again, where is it written that because you've seen it happen a few times that its happening right and left? The VAST majority of students make a decision and don't regret it. The few that do or cannot make a decision should not be held up as disproving the rule.

 

[Ludicolo]

I would really encourage people considering application to two separate specialties to try to narrow things down.

Sit down with a trusted advisor (i.e. maybe an attending in a totally different field) and try to hash it out over a beer.

The application process is difficult, interviews get annoying and expensive. The night before Match Day I think you will be better off if your only question is "where am I going?" not "what am I going to do for the rest of my life?"

Agree w/ this, except for maybe those primarily applying to the ultracompetitive specialties like derm or plastics. Then co-applying to a less competitive backup field may be advisable. But understand that when it comes time for interviews, the “perceived commitment to the field” thing will always come into question.

 

[dragonfly99]

My med school roommate had a difficult time choosing her specialty. But again, where is it written that because you've seen it happen a few times that its happening right and left? The VAST majority of students make a decision and don't regret it. The few that do or cannot make a decision should not be held up as disproving the rule.

I have known a ton of people who had trouble picking a specialty after only 1 year of clinical clerkships. Even among my med school class I'd say it was at least 1/3 of the class who was still unsure about a specialty by the end of 3rd year...then there are the folks who do know what specialty they want but are only marginally competitive for it, or severely geographically limited, and who thus consider cross-applying to two specialties...the OP is not alone.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have known a ton of people who had trouble picking a specialty after only 1 year of clinical clerkships. Even among my med school class I'd say it was at least 1/3 of the class who was still unsure about a specialty by the end of 3rd year...then there are the folks who do know what specialty they want but are only marginally competitive for it, or severely geographically limited, and who thus consider cross-applying to two specialties...the OP is not alone.

I think I will bow out of this conversation because it appears that my words are continually miscontrued.

I never said that the OP is alone. EM and IM are sufficiently similar as to not be surpising that you would apply to both.

I never said that it wasn't difficult to choose a specialty after 1 year of clinical clerkships; as a matter of fact, I have often said it was.

What I did say is that most people MAKE A CHOICE and that choice is not usually between IM and Surgery. Most does not = everyone. We cannot let exceptions to the rule be the norm.