I am a BSN (RN) and have been working for 8 years. Currently I am thinking about applying to an FNP program, deadline Nov 1st, 2010. My question for you all is should I wait one more application year and get more volunteer work and clinic shadowing under my belt or should I just apply?
Applying to FNP programs
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For some odd reason, I cared enough to look at your blog. No one can see your post there unless they desire to see your blog, which I doubt many do.
No NP school is THAT competitive. There are so many NP schools with slots to fill that pretty much anyone that desires to be one can enroll. 3.8 GPA? 8 years experience? They'll practically beg you to come.
The essay is tricky, I'll give you that. Buzz words are definitely "holistic care," or some other nonsense. I promise you just put down something intelligent and you'll get in. Honestly, I have NEVER met or heard of a person wanting to get into NP school and not be accepted first try. Passing the certification exam, well that's another story.
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Actually, I would think working at an embassy would make you a more interesting candidate. Unless by "Embassy," you mean "Embassy Hotel." Then I can see your concern.
😉
😉
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I disagree, there are some schools that are competitive and have limited slots, at least in my part of the country. The nearest NP program only takes 10-15 students annually. I recently heard from one of my former undergrad students who was turned down at U. of New Mexico FNP. (Had a 3.7 GPA, did externship at Mayo, worked at Mayo 3 years, had traveled to Africa as undergrad to learn about nursing education/roles there). Slots can be limited due to small number of available preceptors and clinical sites.
In my class, they only took 10 students per year.
You are listed as a health student, it does not say you are RN so I am not sure where your source of information is. Please give your location, what part of the USA are you referring to? Have you applied to NP schools? What NP schools are you referring to that are not difficult to get into?
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UAB hospital (Alabama) ICU nurse for 2 years, former ACNP student, current SRNA. Yes, some schools are more competitive than others. But if you spread out your app, it isn't. For example, UAB take over 140 students for it's various NP tracks.
Every nurse I've ever known to apply to FNP got in. Granted, I'm sure that I don't have a huge sample size and probably surround myself with better than average individuals, but my evidence is anecdotal. Also, my application to NP school with 3 months experience was accepted so fast it made my head spin.
Every nurse I've ever known to apply to FNP got in. Granted, I'm sure that I don't have a huge sample size and probably surround myself with better than average individuals, but my evidence is anecdotal. Also, my application to NP school with 3 months experience was accepted so fast it made my head spin.
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deleted6669
many DIRECT ENTRY NP 3 yr programs are less competitive than the better np programs like ucsf, u.wa, etc
Only problem is that there are only a VERY FEW direct entry NP programs.
OP is already an experienced RN. No need for a direct-entry program.
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deleted6669
aren't there at least 50-75 nationwide? I live in a rural state and there are 3 within 5 miles of my home.
Direct entry? No. Links please.
It's also not very nice to take cheap shots at our profession.
But if that's what you want to do, then so be it.
D
deleted6669
it took me just a few min to find these and this doesn't include others I already knew about like ohsu:
UCSF. Masters Entry Program in Nursing (MEPN). Worth noting: at the end of 3 years, you have an RN license, a MSN and are ready to be licensed as a Nurse Practitioner, Midwife or Clinical Nurse Specialist.
Johns Hopkins. Accelerated BSN program and MSN program which can be done separately or together. Worth noting: you have the credibility of the BSN upon completion of either part of this program.
Columbia University. Entry to Practice Program for Non-Nurse College Graduates (ETP). Worth noting: ETP Program takes 3 years to complete. ETP graduates obtain both a BSN and MSN.
Mount St. Mary's. Accelerated BSN program. Worth noting: this program is an intense 12 months and you earn a BSN.
University of Pennsylvania. Accelerated BSN program and BSN/MSN Direct Entry program. Worth noting: BSN program is the first step for non-nurses, an outstanding reputation.
University of San Francisco. Master's Entry Option Program. Worth noting: admission workshop offered every year.
San Francisco State University. Accelerated MSN program. Worth noting: the reasonable tuition and the location are attractive; there are few advanced practice specialties to choose from.
Samuel Merritt College. Entry-level MSN program. Worth noting: this program is for case management and emphasizes health economics.
Yale. Graduate Entry Prespecialty in Nursing (GEPN) for non-nurses. Three years of full-time study results in a masters-prepared registered nurse.
right from the source at all nurses: (long thread but mentions other programs)
http://allnurses.com/nurse-practitioners-np/becoming-np-little-193372.html
this is not a cheap shot at np's just showing that direct entry programs are a lot more common than you seem to think
UCSF. Masters Entry Program in Nursing (MEPN). Worth noting: at the end of 3 years, you have an RN license, a MSN and are ready to be licensed as a Nurse Practitioner, Midwife or Clinical Nurse Specialist.
Johns Hopkins. Accelerated BSN program and MSN program which can be done separately or together. Worth noting: you have the credibility of the BSN upon completion of either part of this program.
Columbia University. Entry to Practice Program for Non-Nurse College Graduates (ETP). Worth noting: ETP Program takes 3 years to complete. ETP graduates obtain both a BSN and MSN.
Mount St. Mary's. Accelerated BSN program. Worth noting: this program is an intense 12 months and you earn a BSN.
University of Pennsylvania. Accelerated BSN program and BSN/MSN Direct Entry program. Worth noting: BSN program is the first step for non-nurses, an outstanding reputation.
University of San Francisco. Master's Entry Option Program. Worth noting: admission workshop offered every year.
San Francisco State University. Accelerated MSN program. Worth noting: the reasonable tuition and the location are attractive; there are few advanced practice specialties to choose from.
Samuel Merritt College. Entry-level MSN program. Worth noting: this program is for case management and emphasizes health economics.
Yale. Graduate Entry Prespecialty in Nursing (GEPN) for non-nurses. Three years of full-time study results in a masters-prepared registered nurse.
right from the source at all nurses: (long thread but mentions other programs)
http://allnurses.com/nurse-practitioners-np/becoming-np-little-193372.html
this is not a cheap shot at np's just showing that direct entry programs are a lot more common than you seem to think
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While the non-nurse direct entry NP programs are growing probably faster than most would like there are still <50 nationwide.
I couldn't spend too much time on it but I understand the number of such progams still hovers in the area of between 30-40 schools.
And, FWIW, these schools ARE ridiculously competitive. I also say ridiculous because in many instances the same applicants could apply to a second degree or accelerated BS nursing program(and at a MUCH cheaper$$) and then go on to any NP school for bachelor prepared RN's without adding too terribly much more time to their ultimate goals. Though, in fairness, there still aren't exactly a ton of those around either--particularly compared to the numbers who apply.
So, it could be a little disconcerting to some that there are 40 or so nursing programs that will take any old college grad and be able to turn them into a 'midlevel' provider in 3 years.
For that matter, there are 47 PA programs around that promise to do the same in about 2.
(out of 142 PA schools total--the 47 don't require experience)
Seems like the world continues to spin...
(FTR, there's about a handful of 2 year DE-NP programs around and about the same # of PA schools that are trending toward 3)
I couldn't spend too much time on it but I understand the number of such progams still hovers in the area of between 30-40 schools.
And, FWIW, these schools ARE ridiculously competitive. I also say ridiculous because in many instances the same applicants could apply to a second degree or accelerated BS nursing program(and at a MUCH cheaper$$) and then go on to any NP school for bachelor prepared RN's without adding too terribly much more time to their ultimate goals. Though, in fairness, there still aren't exactly a ton of those around either--particularly compared to the numbers who apply.
So, it could be a little disconcerting to some that there are 40 or so nursing programs that will take any old college grad and be able to turn them into a 'midlevel' provider in 3 years.
For that matter, there are 47 PA programs around that promise to do the same in about 2.
(out of 142 PA schools total--the 47 don't require experience)
Seems like the world continues to spin...
(FTR, there's about a handful of 2 year DE-NP programs around and about the same # of PA schools that are trending toward 3)
D
deleted6669
AGREE WITH ABOVE.
I know there are "direct entry" pa programs as well. not a big fan, but not much I can do about it at this point.
there are 230 accelerated bs to bsn programs out there now:
http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Education/pdf/APLIST.PDF
there are a handful of 5 yr pa programs that give both a bs and an ms and two 3 yr ms programs. I think the 3 yr program is where things are headed in the future for pa education.
I know there are "direct entry" pa programs as well. not a big fan, but not much I can do about it at this point.
there are 230 accelerated bs to bsn programs out there now:
http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Education/pdf/APLIST.PDF
there are a handful of 5 yr pa programs that give both a bs and an ms and two 3 yr ms programs. I think the 3 yr program is where things are headed in the future for pa education.
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I see this university is in Birmingham so a larger university system and a major metropolitan area, while I am in a rural state (New Mexico) where there are only 2 universities (U. of New Mexico which has the only medical school and only law school in the state & N. M. State U where I teach)
These 2 universities are the only places in the entire state to earn a BSN and NMSU has Psych NP, where as UNM offers FNP, ACNP, Peds NP and maybe more. There is St Francis in Albuquerque, a private corporation that also offers FNP. It looks like U of Alabama offers a great variety of tracks for NP's which can account for the ability to take more students. It was only in the past few years that a PhD in Nursing was approved at both UNM & NMSU. Luckily, I live near El Paso TX and attended FNP at UT El Paso & yeah they only took 10 students per year back then. It is hard to attract NP faculty due to low salaries which limits the number of students they can accept. UT El Paso & NMSU have recipricol agreements so I paid in state tuition (neighboring county)
You are fortunate to live in major cities with universities associated with medical & nursing schools with so many NP programs to choose from. I wish you well in your CRNA studies.
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Then why not focus on the failings within your own profession, instead of thundering away at another? Kind of hypocritical, if you ask me, to say, "Meh, there's not much I can do about it." Ever hear of being an advocate for your own profession?
D
deleted6669
I am one of the loudest opponents of direct entry pa programs there is. I just don't know what good it does. that doesn't mean I won't keep trying. hopefully over the yrs I have convinced some younger folks to get experience before applying by harping on how important that experience is. at the administrative level I can't influence what particular institutions set as entry requirements. I have been involved with/volunteered at/taught for several programs over the yrs and have disassociated myself from those with admission standards that I object to.
over at the pa forum I am known as "the patron saint of prior medical experience".
I am against all adv. clinician programs which allow folks to enter without prior experience, whether they be pa or np. the concept defeats the entire idea of what pa and np programs were meant to be about- building on prior experience.
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It's interesting that I only see you protesting DE NPs here, as well as the occasional shots at NPs in general. My point, which you missed, was that you ought to stick to criticizing your own profession, period.
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deleted6669
my point(which apparently you missed) was that pa's and np's occupy the same rung on the ladder and are interchangeable in the minds of many so I am in favor of the best midlevels/adv. practice clinicians/affiliated clinicians/what ever you want to call us possible.
that means I am in favor of appropriate educational standards across the board. I also am against direct entry paramedic programs and have said as much when it comes up.
I work with some great np's who were trained in the old school model of yrs of experience followed by an intense academic experience. I have no problem with any program pa or np that holds to this concept.
spend some time over at the pa forum if you want to see me criticize pa programs.
that means I am in favor of appropriate educational standards across the board. I also am against direct entry paramedic programs and have said as much when it comes up.
I work with some great np's who were trained in the old school model of yrs of experience followed by an intense academic experience. I have no problem with any program pa or np that holds to this concept.
spend some time over at the pa forum if you want to see me criticize pa programs.
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I have no desire to read PA forums just for the purpose of seeing you criticize pa programs. I'm not a PA, and am relatively uninterested in what goes on in the PA profession. I am interested in what happens in mine, and it bothers me tremendously when someone in another profession routinely criticizes perceived flaws in my profession.
I think it's great that you support PAs and are and advocate for your own. What's not great is how you do it while making subtle digs at the expense of others. It diminishes your message, IMO.
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deleted6669
I mean no offense. my goal is the best possible pa's and np's now and in the future.
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Fab-
In fairness to Emed, I KNOW it practically wounded him to ultimately have to agree w/my post above regarding there now being more DE PA programs than NP--especially all of them and that route being quicker to boot.
I'm actually curious what he had written as a response before it was edited because I SUSPECT it wasn't nearly as congenial.
I'd let this one slide-----
but overall agree w/your pointed suggestions.
If nothing else, perhaps some might gain a little empathy regarding dealing w/the fallout when a profession changes direction without gaining approval from the frontlines first🙄
Or not
In fairness to Emed, I KNOW it practically wounded him to ultimately have to agree w/my post above regarding there now being more DE PA programs than NP--especially all of them and that route being quicker to boot.
I'm actually curious what he had written as a response before it was edited because I SUSPECT it wasn't nearly as congenial.
I'd let this one slide-----
but overall agree w/your pointed suggestions.
If nothing else, perhaps some might gain a little empathy regarding dealing w/the fallout when a profession changes direction without gaining approval from the frontlines first🙄
Or not
D
deleted6669
don't know if you guys remember this but a few yrs ago a pa program experimented with having the majority of its didactics online. many of us (pa's), myself included, yelled that this would be the death of the profession and the program dropped that option after starting only 1 class on this track.
regardless of the program(rn/medic/pa/np/crna/aa/cnm/etc) I think we owe it to our patients to try to insure that students get the best education they can(that means, in my opinion, in a classroom, not over the internet) and that they have significant clinical training for the program(define that however you think appropriate) that they are pursuing, both in terms of adequate prior hce and in clinicals associated with the program. (is that the world's longest run on sentence or what?)
didn't mean to ruffle any feathers here. I will try to tone down my gripes about specific np issues or at least balance them with pa griping. as you guys probably know I work with and have hired np's and am not "anti-np" as others on this board tend to be. in fact I am an advisor on a joint pa/np website. I just want both professions to have realistic expectations of their applicants and certain standards with regards to their training.
I don't think that is an unreasonable goal for any pa or np.
regardless of the program(rn/medic/pa/np/crna/aa/cnm/etc) I think we owe it to our patients to try to insure that students get the best education they can(that means, in my opinion, in a classroom, not over the internet) and that they have significant clinical training for the program(define that however you think appropriate) that they are pursuing, both in terms of adequate prior hce and in clinicals associated with the program. (is that the world's longest run on sentence or what?)
didn't mean to ruffle any feathers here. I will try to tone down my gripes about specific np issues or at least balance them with pa griping. as you guys probably know I work with and have hired np's and am not "anti-np" as others on this board tend to be. in fact I am an advisor on a joint pa/np website. I just want both professions to have realistic expectations of their applicants and certain standards with regards to their training.
I don't think that is an unreasonable goal for any pa or np.
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<shrug>
If you think this is merely about balancing complaints about professions, I'm sorry.
Mab:
Too bad the genie can't be put back in the bottle, hmmm?
If you think this is merely about balancing complaints about professions, I'm sorry.
Mab:
Too bad the genie can't be put back in the bottle, hmmm?
D
deleted6669
I am more involved with the np profession than you think. I think that gives me some allowance for being critical of aspects of the profession or particular programs I don't agree with.
I train np students. I hire and fire np's. I supervise np's. I think you could cut me a little slack.
I train np students. I hire and fire np's. I supervise np's. I think you could cut me a little slack.
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If you say so.
You come across as someone who believes he is superior to NPs. I don't believe you are, but I have a feeling we're going to continue to disagree, so I'm not going to argue the point anymore.
You come across as someone who believes he is superior to NPs. I don't believe you are, but I have a feeling we're going to continue to disagree, so I'm not going to argue the point anymore.
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Emed is above a lot of people because he is emed, not because he is a PA. He has more medical experience than you or I could hope for. I'm also willing to bet that you and he would agree on a great deal if you weren't being stubborn.
He is a "midlevel" so therefor he has the ability to comment on the training of midlevels. Simple as that. He can also do so since he is once smart ass guy that is probably smarter than most of his former SPs. If he says that DE NP and PA are a bad idea, why are you arguing with him? He's not saying NP is bad, just the DE part is.
Why does he sound down on NP education? Because many people are. I've seen you express your displeasure with the education. It's so common place now that it's become a knee jerk reaction to defend it.
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I'll cut you some slack since you don't know his post history. Maybe if you stick around long enough (like more than 7 posts and a couple of months on the board) you'll see what I mean.
And you can disagree with my opinion if you want. It makes no never mind to me.
And you can disagree with my opinion if you want. It makes no never mind to me.
Oh yes.
What was the result of that by the way?
I heard that there was no plausible difference in the results between online and offline didactic learning for the PA program.
Thank you.
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You can tell me I am wrong, but I thought you posted your ED would never hire a NP only a PA and that was they way you wanted it. I also thought your view of NPs has been a bit slanted, but over the years you have mellowed.
D
deleted6669
I work at 4 places.
two use pa's and np's interchangeably
one uses pa's in main, np's in fast track
one uses only pa's.
yes, I have mellowed a bit in the 9 yrs I have been on sdn.
D
deleted6669
it was my understanding that didactic grades were the same but the online prepared students flailed mierably in a clinical setting so they stopped the program.
how can you possibly teach physical exam techniques online? you need to practice them on a partner in front of an instructor....
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Please don't pull any punches on my account. I've have been around quite a bit longer than a couple of months. My join date is Feb 2009, but I've been here much longer than that since I've been lurking on these forums since before nursing school.
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I won't. Your previous "lurker status" doesn't change my response a bit.
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Why does everything always have to boil down to an argument on who's profession is better? I have to agree with Emedpa in that there are more than a few direct entry NP programs. I can think of 5-6 off the top of my head within an hour of where I live and there are probably a couple more. That's more than a few. I know I'm going to get mauled over this, but just saying. I don't see how that is a negative statement and that if someone from outside nursing says that it is an attack.
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EMEDPA - If you have half of the medical skills that you have mediation skills, then I want to figure out a way for you to be my preceptor next year 😎
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For someone who doesn't care what I think you sure do respond to me alot.😛
No ones really attacking either profession, rather we are attacking schools that allow for direct entry. Both educational models can produce highly effective practitioners if done in the traditional and proper way. (read: no direct entry) I should probably also add that those without experience won't necessarily be bad practitioners, they'll just have to be more motivated and do more self study/preparation.
My only point was that NP school is not hard to gain acceptance to if you spread out your application. There are many direct entry schools, online schools, and schools with huge # of seats. Anything is competitive if you put all your eggs in one basket, especially if that "basket" only takes 10 people. But many schools accept over 100.
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I agree wholeheartedly with what you said. It just seems that if someone says something that is even perceived to be negative about another they feel like they have to point out flaws in the other just to make a point, thats all.
To further elaborate on my previous post for people like Fab, I don't think negatively of nursing, just that the PhD/DNP thing is rather unnecessary and a result of degree creep. I would feel the same about an AA or PA PhD. It's my opinion, and those of many people that I know, that a MPH, DPH, or PhD in another related field (i.e. physiology) would be better and more accepted. If you disagree that's fine I just wanted to say that more clearly.
D
deleted6669
send me a pm, we might be able to make it work but you would have to apply for a slot now. we book students way in advance. we have 12 slots/yr with 9 going to local programs and 3 up for grabs. it's a great rotation with experience in fast track, peds er, main er, and obs unit doing treadmills,TIA workups, etc and acting as hospitalist for 24 hrs so you get a flavor of inpt medicine but after 24 hrs you have to send them home or admit them.
I have precepted lots of folks over at the pa forum if you want some references.....🙂
I respectfully disagree as your posts state and imply otherwise.
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You needn't elaborate on my account. I remember quite clearly what you said and how you said it. I also read your posts in other forums. I'm not sure why you're trying to backpedal now.
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Gotta agree with others. Your other posts were seemingly anti nursing, whether intentional or not.
Entitled to your opinion I suppose.
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I reread them and, I admit, they do sound anti-nursing. I apologize. That was not my intent, though I do think that rectal trumpet paper is funny 😉. Anyway, my whole thing is that I think all this DNP, PharmD, DPT, doctor xyz programs are just a result of degree creep and to line the pockets of schools. Obviously other people feel otherwise or they wouldn't go to them. I just don't understand why people go along with this when 10 years ago it was fine to practice with a BS, then it went to MS, and now, all of a sudden, you need to add another year for a doctorate. I'm all for further education but this is getting out of hand.
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Why should you decide how much education is "enough" for nurses to have? That is a matter to be decided by the nursing profession, not a "PA-to-be." You don't see nurses debating to death how much education PAs should have.
Get over your fixation on the rectal "trumpet." It makes you look odd.
Get over your fixation on the rectal "trumpet." It makes you look odd.
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Funny - the nursing profession can't even agree on an entry-level into nursing. DNP/DNAP has everything to do with degree creep, and at least one other reason that would really piss you off (you know what it is, and of course you'll never admit it's true). DNP offers NO increased scope of practice, and because of it's totally online availability, cheapens the whole concept even further.
And your last sentence above is woefully incorrect (or maybe wishful thinking).
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Where do you see nurses discussing PA education? allnurses? Maybe. I hope you don't take anything there seriously; most of the people there can't write a coherent sentence. You certainly don't see it discussed among the few nurses who post here. I couldn't care less what goes on in PA education. It's not my profession, not my bailiwick.
Many of us have already posted about the inadequacies of the DNP. Maybe you should read PPs before jumping in with both feet.
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I wasn't trying to say how much education nurses should have. I think everyone should be as educated as they want to be. However, what I was saying is that in a profession where a doctorate degree confers no greater practice rights why would you need it? What does a doctorate in nursing do for you other than make you spend more money to do the same thing you were doing before? A PhD in nursing makes even less sense. Every time I ask this question all I hear is "to advance the nursing profession." Where are you advancing it to? Do you guys think that nursing should replace the physicians, surgeons, and scientists in other fields that have built modern medicine?
Why do you care?
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DNP is crap. But a Phd is altogether different. Research is needed on infection control techniques, improving patient satisfaction, ways to decrease VAP, and the list goes on and on...
No, nursing doesn't replace any other field, nor does any other field replace nursing. Ya know the first crash cart wash invented by a nurse. Not sure if she did research on it, but if it was done today it would be required before hospitals adopt it. It would have to be cost effective, decrease mortality rates, etc.
Actually there are at least 70 direct-entry NP programs nationwide. There are 285 total accredited FNP programs, so the direct-entry programs represent just under 25% of all programs. I did a state-by-state search and posted the link for all the direct-entry progams a few months ago. Here it is:
http://www.bestnursingdegree.com/programs/direct-entry-msn/
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