Applying to only top 20s?

[AquariusFinch]

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NOT A HUMBLEBRAG SO PLEASE DON'T YELL AT ME.

I am in a joint BS/MD program at a school that allows me to apply out without giving up my acceptance. Since there's no downside to applying to other schools (besides the stress involved), I was planning on sending my app out to every top 20 school and pray that I get in. I realize that my MCAT is a little on the lower end (515) but my GPA is 3.9+. I have a good amount of research experience (working in a BME lab for 2.5 years, multiple summer research programs, several poster presentation awards, publication on its way etc) and decent but not amazing volunteering/shadowing/ECs. Is it even worth applying to top schools or should I just save my money? I don't mind sticking with the current med school but it's not that highly ranked and has mandatory research/volunteering requirements that I'd rather not deal with. Thanks in advance for any input!

 

[ChrisMack390]

If it is correct that you are free to apply elsewhere without jeopardizing the spot at your current school, I would probably apply to a limited number of schools that you really like a lot. I would recommend against just applying to the ones a website says are the best 20 and instead look for schools whose mission, facilities, faculty, etc. will best prepare you for the career you have in mind.

 

[purplefrog13]

I would apply to the ones I would attend over the program you are currently enrolled for. Just because a school is in the top 20 doesn't mean that it's a good fit for you.

 

[ScottTenorman54]

I say do it, but on the condition that you don't google "top 20 med schools" or use USNWR.

 

[efle]

For me it would depend on what BS/MD program I was in and how much I liked that med school. If I was in at like, WashU or Northwestern or Rice/Baylor I'd probably not even apply out. If it was, say, Brown I'd probably do similarly to you and shoot for a handful of the big names just to dispel any "what ifs" I might have otherwise had

 

[Gurby]

I would recommend against just applying to the ones a website says are the best 20 and instead look for schools whose mission, facilities, faculty, etc. will best prepare you for the career you have in mind.

Just because a school is in the top 20 doesn't mean that it's a good fit for you.

I say do it, but on the condition that you don't google "top 20 med schools" or use USNWR.

 

[JustAPhD]

If you have the money go for it. Personally I'd only apply to schools that I know I'd choose over the BS/MD institution if I got an acceptance. Congrats, you're in a very good spot.

If you do decide to apply elsewhere. Quadruple check with your current university that applying out doesn't jeperdize your seat.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Zero salt. I have interviewed at 3 of the US News's top 20s. There are more factors than that to consider. A lot more.

 

[purplefrog13]

Honestly, it also depends on what your career goals are. Primary care or Research? I say a top 20 school is more likely to have an impact on the research side. Then again, I think there are plenty of good schools that are ranked outside the top 20...Mayo Clinic, for example. You aren't going to know how you fit at a school until you interview. Everyone can say things on paper, but you can only really see once you are there.

 

[aldol16]

I am in a joint BS/MD program at a school that allows me to apply out without giving up my acceptance. Since there's no downside to applying to other schools (besides the stress involved), I was planning on sending my app out to every top 20 school and pray that I get in. I realize that my MCAT is a little on the lower end (515) but my GPA is 3.9+. I have a good amount of research experience (working in a BME lab for 2.5 years, multiple summer research programs, several poster presentation awards, publication on its way etc) and decent but not amazing volunteering/shadowing/ECs. Is it even worth applying to top schools or should I just save my money? I don't mind sticking with the current med school but it's not that highly ranked and has mandatory research/volunteering requirements that I'd rather not deal with. Thanks in advance for any input!

If you don't like mandatory research requirements, you probably don't like research that much? If you don't like research that much, you realize that the "top 20" schools are generally ranked by research, right? At least USNWR.

 

[efle]

To be fair, the experience of research a lot of undergrads get is mindless labor like maintaining cell lines or mice etc. Nobody falls in love with that. The research expected of a med student like some retro chart reviewing is a different animal.

I always found it odd that research funding was the primary driver of rankings for USNWR, but when you switch to sorting by residency director scoring and peer institution scoring, the general ordering holds. Go figure.

 

[aldol16]

To be fair, the experience of research a lot of undergrads get is mindless labor like maintaining cell lines or mice etc. Nobody falls in love with that. The research expected of a med student like some retro chart reviewing is a different animal.

Depends on who you're working with. Since OP has presented several posters, I would hope that most of that work was conducted by him or her and involved original thinking.

 

[7331poas]

Zero salt. I have interviewed at 3 of the US News's top 20s. There are more factors than that to consider. A lot more.

....like what.

The top 20s have the better match lists.

 

[aldol16]

The top 20s have the better match lists.

That would be one of the "other factors." They also don't have uniform match lists. There's quite a bit of variation among the top 20s (mainly top 5 or so vs. the rest of them).

 

[efle]

....like what.

The top 20s have the better match lists.

Hard to know the causality though. Do the schools get average people into great residencies, or do the outstanding students capable of getting great residencies congregate at top schools? Would you really worry about someone with an 80 LizzyM and knack for research matching well if they take the cheap education at their state program over a private research powerhouse?

 

[efle]

That would be one of the "other factors." They also don't have uniform match lists. There's quite a bit of variation among the top 20s (mainly top 5 or so vs. the rest of them).

Ehh, to a significant degree? Obviously I don't know that much about match lists but I tend to see more similarity than difference between, say, Penn vs Duke vs Vandy. Top of the "other factors" list would be costs and locations to me

 

[aldol16]

Ehh, to a significant degree? Obviously I don't know that much about match lists but I tend to see more similarity than difference between, say, Penn vs Duke vs Vandy. Top of the "other factors" list would be costs and locations to me

Well, that would depend in large part on what you're looking for. There will obviously be overall similarities but if you're interested in a specific field, you can discern noticeable differences. At least I did in the field I was interested in. But then again, by the time you apply to residency, there's probably a good chance that your choice will be dictated by factors other than ranking. You might be married or things might be getting serious with your SO, so you'll probably start considering things like where they are, where your families are, etc. At least to me, that's more important than program ranking.

Top of the list for me is location, location, location. Can't stress that one enough.

 

[Goro]

They're being quite accurate, Gurby!

 

[7331poas]

Hard to know the causality though. Do the schools get average people into great residencies, or do the outstanding students capable of getting great residencies congregate at top schools? Would you really worry about someone with an 80 LizzyM and knack for research matching well if they take the cheap education at their state program over a private research powerhouse?

OK. so why in the world would you play the risk an go to a bottom tier institution based on a chance likelihood that you are correct?

 

[ChrisMack390]

....like what.

The top 20s have the better match lists.

Look, if you wanna live your life based on a list on a website you can feel free to do so.

I would think tuition, location, specific research labs, specific community service opportunities, missions, etc. might play into a reasonable decision making process, but what do i know?

 

[efle]

OK. so why in the world would you play the risk an go to a bottom tier institution based on a chance likelihood that you are correct?

Money, location, curriculum features (eg. mandatory lecture), student stress/happiness?

Did you instantly choose your college based on US News rank with no other considerations?

 

[kb1900]

....like what.

The top 20s have the better match lists.

After interviewing at a few top 20s and other schools I'd say that this isn't an absolute...at all

 

[LizzyM]

If your MCAT was 520 or higher I could advise doing this with the hope of getting a sweet scholarship from a "number *****" school. With what you've got, and your disinterest in research and service, I'd stay with what you have, use the time you'd otherwise spend writing essays doing something fun and spend the money you'd otherwise spend on applications doing something fun-- or save it toward the travel expenses you'll have with residency applications because you are going to medical school and barring any unforeseen problem, you will be interviewing for residencies in a few years and that costs money.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

I think the fact that you are already in a BS/MD is itself very concerning, regardless of your qualifications. You've made a commitment as a BS/MD student and you're breaking it, and nonetheless because of ranking. The mere fact that you want to do this gives off an arrogant vibe. But @LizzyM can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[efle]

Many of the BS/MD programs are not binding, there is no commitment necessarily involved

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Did you instantly choose your college based on US News rank with no other considerations?

No he chose it specifically based on how many ortho matches they had the year prior. No other considerations necessary...

You've made a commitment as a BS/MD student and you're breaking it

I believe he said in the OP that it wasn't breaking any commitment and he was allowed to do so.

 

[efle]

No he chose it specifically based on how many ortho matches they had the year prior. No other considerations necessary...



I believe he said in the OP that it wasn't breaking any commitment and he was allowed to do so.

Well hey, if a college is sending people into ortho residencies it's pretty damn impressive

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

When I say "commitment" I don't mean a binding commitment. I'm talking in a general sense.

 

[efle]

In a general sense, for some of these programs it is merely an offer, not an expectation. The school probably tries to select candidates they believe are likely to want to stay, but if it's non-binding it's non-binding.

Sort of like some colleges and their early action options, all it means at some places is an early offer, they understand you will probably apply a bunch of other places too and wait to see all your options to decide.

 

[LizzyM]

The schools that have these programs often do so to attract high achieving HS students to their undergrad class. If that is the case, having them matriculate, graduate and go on their way achieves the school's goal. Having them move on means that they can make room for more traditional and non-traditional (older) candidates as well as candidates from other undergrad institutions to better diversify the med school class. It is win-win all around so don't be getting all uppity about "commitment". If the school permits students to apply out they are doing so for reasons that make sense to them.

 

[Jalby]

I thought I was going to hate this thread judging by it's title, but it turns out to be alright.

As a doctor you will make between $200k and $500k. It will probably cost you about $5k to apply to these schools. That is a small price to pay for the possibility of going to a better school that could increase your future earnings by $100k a year.

So I wouldn't apply to the "Top 20" per say. I would take the top 20 schools, pick your favorite 15, and also apply to 5 schools that you think might be the same as your school. You might find a school that you hadn't considered originally but found out it was AWESOME. For me, Baylor and Northwestern were two places that were on my almost don't apply to list but I loved them both over the school I ended up at.

 

[7331poas]

Money, location, curriculum features (eg. mandatory lecture), student stress/happiness?

Did you instantly choose your college based on US News rank with no other considerations?

Look, if you wanna live your life based on a list on a website you can feel free to do so.

I would think tuition, location, specific research labs, specific community service opportunities, missions, etc. might play into a reasonable decision making process, but what do i know?

None of those things matter. The name of the game is where you match.

But then again. People define happiness however they want. I am not particularly concerned with that. Its about what institution will best assist me in reaching my goals ONLY.

 

[Mad Jack]

....like what.

The top 20s have the better match lists.

They also take in better students who tend to be gunners. How much of it is correlation versus causation outside of the top five or so is debatable.

 

[efle]

None of those things matter. The name of the game is where you match.

Some of those things do matter even if match is your only concern. Eg if all you care about is matching into a location in SoCal, can make more sense to go to USC than NYU. If a school is unranked pass/fail with recorded lectures, you might be able to put time into research during your first couple years that you wouldn't have had at a graded/ranked school with mandatory attendances. A school ranked a little better but that gives far less time to prepare for Step 1 might be making your path harder rather than easier.

Focusing just on match is pretty ridiculous though. Easy to say, hard to do if you've actually had to worry about finances and large debts, or lived somewhere frigid or rural or culturally different that you didn't like, etc.

But now I'm really curious how you went about your college application process. Like once you got in somewhere would you just withdraw from anywhere else lower in US News, regardless of finances or location or qualities of the school like size?

 

[sliceofbread136]

Some of those things do matter even if match is your only concern. Eg if all you care about is matching into a location in SoCal, can make more sense to go to USC than NYU. If a school is unranked pass/fail with recorded lectures, you might be able to put time into research during your first couple years that you wouldn't have had at a graded/ranked school with mandatory attendances. A school ranked a little better but that gives far less time to prepare for Step 1 might be making your path harder rather than easier.

Focusing just on match is pretty ridiculous though. Easy to say, hard to do if you've actually had to worry about finances and large debts, or lived somewhere frigid or rural or culturally different that you didn't like, etc.

But now I'm really curious how you went about your college application process. Like once you got in somewhere would you just withdraw from anywhere else lower in US News, regardless of finances or location or qualities of the school like size?

Step 1 score- not a very useful metric, especially if you are already a good test taker. It's mostly on you

Preclinical curriculum- matters very little. You get used to what your school has.

Match list- you will not be able to interpret this accurately, I suggest not even trying

Location- this matters, probably more than you think. Many residencys have regional biases, and you will have advantages there especially at your home institution

Money- this matters for obvious reasons

Reputation- makes a large difference if you go to top 10 schools, less so at top 20 and then less so at top 30 etc etc. I honestly think us news is a fairly decent metric, certainly better than a premed trying to interpret a match list

 

[Lucca]

None of those things matter. The name of the game is where you match.

But then again. People define happiness however they want. I am not particularly concerned with that. Its about what institution will best assist me in reaching my goals ONLY.

Have you consdiered that other people's goals are not entirely predicated on where they end up matching. Like there's no question if you want to match at MGH that your best bet is at Harvard but how much that actually means for you, your training, your career, your "goals", is going to vary from person to person.

Also, cases with massive inbreeding like MGH/Harvard are probably not the norm. In general I think it's silly for PreAllo to talk about "matching chances" at all, it just doesn't make a lot of sense since it is not something that can be divined

 

[solitarius]

...

 

[7331poas]

Eg if all you care about is matching into a location in SoCal, can make more sense to go to USC than NYU. If a school is unranked pass/fail with recorded lectures, you might be able to put time into research during your first couple years that you wouldn't have had at a graded/ranked school with mandatory attendances. A school ranked a little better but that gives far less time to prepare for Step 1 might be making your path harder rather than easier.

Great. Then if I want to match SoCal then I would look at the match list of USC vs NYU and form a conclusion. Your scenario has not disputed this.

Point #2 regarding pass fail and research

If a schools preclinical curriculum in-fact affects the ability to do research and in turn affects matching chances, the most direct way to observe this is by looking at the match list.

 

[efle]

Great. Then if I want to match SoCal then I would look at the match list of USC vs NYU and form a conclusion. Your scenario has not disputed this.

It doesn't dispute the new goalposts, true. Earlier you argued rank/prestige wins because that gives you your best matching options. Now you've divorced rank from match lists and are saying you'd go by match lists. This I agree with, it is exactly my point. NYU outranks USC but that does not mean it will serve your goals best. Something else (location) is now more important than rank for determining what is best. Bingo.

Point #2 regarding pass fail and research

If a schools preclinical curriculum in-fact affects the ability to do research and in turn affects matching chances, the most direct way to observe this is by looking at the match list.

That really doesn't work, you have no way to distinguish the cirriculum's effects from everything else that influences match lists. Way too much confounding stuff.

And all this is ignoring the big point the poster above mentioned - reading match lists isn't something straightforward we can do very accurately. Broad trends like lots of Californian matches vs very few, or lots of surgical vs few, are about all you can glean.

 

[aldol16]

Also, cases with massive inbreeding like MGH/Harvard are probably not the norm. In general I think it's silly for PreAllo to talk about "matching chances" at all, it just doesn't make a lot of sense since it is not something that can be divined

It's quite the norm at many top schools, although the percentage of students matching into their home institutions is slightly lower.

 

[Psai]

My god lol at premeds trying to discuss matching

It's fine to worry about matching and those 4 years of your life but you need to get through medical school which is also 4 years of your life. If you end up unhappy and drop out who cares how good the match list from 4 years ago with people you don't even know looks to your premed eyes

You don't need to go to harvard med school to interview and match at harvard for residency

 

[Shifty B]

I usually don't make it over to this side of the forum, but Tapatalk thinks I'm interested and I have the time. My comments are preceeded by this: I am a faculty member who has been through medical school, residency match, fellowship match, and a job search. All of those were at different institutions, so I have been exposed to a variety of places.

To the OP: You are in a rare opportunity where you can check out a variety of different schools with little risk. You already know you have an acceptance at a place that you would like to go, so as long as you have the money and time you should check out some other places. You might find something you like a lot more, get a great financial aid offer, or simply see that you are already at the best institution for you.

To the "top X list" haters: These lists are not the end all and certainly are not perfect, but they are something. Quite frankly, when you are a pre-medical student, you don't have much else to go on. You don't know enough to know about reputations in individual fields, and for the most part it wouldn't matter because you don't even know what field you're going to go into anyway. All you can get at a 1 day interview is a gestalt, which may be accurate, and it may not. The top-25 lists are based on research dollars, reputation, blah-blah, but the reality about them is that they tend to be true no matter what measure you look at. Match lists are better, step scores are higher, more people have opportunities to go into competitive specialties. They have more money to pour into things that affect student experience. Unless you know someone personally who will give you an honest opinion about a place, it's hard to get better information. Even that person is limited because he only went to medical school one place and has no basis for comparison.

To everyone: In general, I advise everyone to pick the institution with the best reputation that fits your other goals. Geography, finance, being near loved ones, all important goals that might be lower on some ranking lists. It will make a difference at each step of the way. If you don't believe me, look at a list of colleges that students at a top-5 medical school came from. That will continue throughout your career.

An aside: When people talk about successfully matching, they generally aren't saying they want to match at MGH. They are saying that they want to match in the specialty of their choice in the general region they want to live in. That IS important. If you can only do the specialty of your choice 3000 miles away from the family you want to be near, it is a problem.

I probably won't follow along this thread much more, but I wanted to weigh in as someone who has a little more experience. If anyone has questions they can PM me.

 

[aldol16]

You don't need to go to harvard med school to interview and match at harvard for residency

Yet, going to HMS drastically improves your chances at matching to MGH.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Yet, going to HMS drastically improves your chances at matching to MGH.

Which doesn't contradict what he was saying

 

[aldol16]

Which doesn't contradict what he was saying

Never claimed it did. You don't need to be good-looking to get a Hollywood job but that doesn't mean that being good-looking doesn't improve your odds. Sure, you don't need to go to HMS to match into a residency at MGH, but that doesn't mean that going to HMS doesn't improve your chances. I don't think anybody here is claiming that you must go to HMS in order for you to match into a residency at MGH.

 

[efle]

My god lol at premeds trying to discuss matching

It's fine to worry about matching and those 4 years of your life but you need to get through medical school which is also 4 years of your life. If you end up unhappy and drop out who cares how good the match list from 4 years ago with people you don't even know looks to your premed eyes

Bit of a slippy slope there with mismatched school qualities --> you'll drop out. I wasn't excited about St. Louis for four years of college but the pros outweighed the cons!

I'm curious at what point in med school they sit you down and explain what programs are good though. Like what is the process that takes a clueless premed/M1 and teaches them by M4 which residencies are the best/decent/bad per specialty so they can apply accordingly?

 

[ChrisMack390]

Bit of a slippy slope there with mismatched school qualities --> you'll drop out. I wasn't excited about St. Louis for four years of college but the pros outweighed the cons!

I'm curious at what point in med school they sit you down and explain what programs are good though. Like what is the process that takes a clueless premed/M1 and teaches them by M4 which residencies are the best/decent/bad per specialty so they can apply accordingly?

There are residency program rankings from doximity and such. Sure they are plagued by the same questions as the med school rankings, but at least they are specific to particular fields. Choosing a medical school based on where it's residency ranks in a given field is obviously insane.

 

[Lucca]

Bit of a slippy slope there with mismatched school qualities --> you'll drop out. I wasn't excited about St. Louis for four years of college but the pros outweighed the cons!

I'm curious at what point in med school they sit you down and explain what programs are good though. Like what is the process that takes a clueless premed/M1 and teaches them by M4 which residencies are the best/decent/bad per specialty so they can apply accordingly?

Once you actually have direct access to people who have trained in a field or are responsible for training people in a specialty, on top of a network of peers who had to go through the same process firsthand in the recent past, it is probably far easier to formulate opinions about residency and match. I doubt there is a "Residency 101" sit down talk in medical school but just by going through the process you begin to pick up info and hear names repeated and understand more what the differences are etc

 

[Psai]

It seems that it's difficult to explain this to you guys but rankings are silly. usnews and doximity are not great. All the stupid banners about top 10 usnews ranking or top regional blah blah blah of the hospital I saw constantly on the interview trail made me vomit.

 

[Panther_]

It seems that it's difficult to explain this to you guys but rankings are silly. usnews and doximity are not great. All the stupid banners about top 10 usnews ranking or top regional blah blah blah of the hospital I saw constantly on the interview trail made me vomit.

Are you sure rankings are silly? I have gotten some advice recently from a few physicians at my current job. They have all essentially said, "if you want to go into academic medicine, I think you should go to school X (one of the schools I am strongly considering)." They then proceeded to say, " if you get interviewed/accepted to schools like, Harvard, Penn, Duke, Yale, etc (aka top 10), then your decision will be much more difficult." They said that the individuals that they interview for residency and fellowship programs often come from top 20 schools and not other schools like school X (one of the schools I am also considering, which is not ranked as high). These physicians also graduated from top 10 med schools and top residency programs and are now physicians at a top hospital. So is there not any bias here? Are rankings as silly as you say? In my opinion, I think they matter depending on the kind of physician that you want to be. I'm not saying you can't do well at any school or match well, and quite frankly, getting accepted to any US Med school is an achievement, however I think there are levels to this for academic medicine.

Edit: I am trying to look past rankings and look at a variety of factors. But when even physicians keep referring to them, it makes you wonder, are they really useless.