Applying to residency and expunged misdemeanors

[Colo344]

I know this topic has been discussed before, but I feel like my case was unique enough to warrant special consideration.

I am a current MS1 at a top 20 school and I am concerned about applying to residency in threeish years with three misdemeanors that will be 7 years old by the time I apply to residency. The three misdemeanors were not separate instances, but rather one incident involving being pulled over and eventually receiving tickets for unlawful drug paraphernalia (marijuana), having a fake id, and minor in possession of alcohol ( I was 20 at the time).

I was given suspended imposition for the first two charges (probation terminated early due to good behavior for both) and my MIP was expunged. None of the charges show up on my public record, although I know a federal background check (licensing) would find all three.

I fully acknowledge this was entirely my fault and don't want to excuse my behavior or hide it in any way. I have disclosed it to my medical school and I'm currently in communication with one of my deans (who insists this is much more common than I believe it is) over next steps. I will certainly meet with her over and over again to determine my best approach to residency application but I wanted to see what other people though, hopefully some program directors out there included.

I am currently very interested in ophthalmology and I was wondering whether I should just give up on that interest now given to how competitive it is. I think I am capable of doing very well in clerkships and on my STEP 1, as judged by my good performance so far in my first year. Any thoughts and advice are appreciated. I know my charges are expunged but I plan on disclosing them on ERAS when the time comes. Just wondering if I should give up on any competitive specialty now given my situation or if I can hold on to some hope.


Thanks

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[wiggitywack12]

Why don't you contact some PDs in ophthalmology yourself and ask? What are the next steps that your dean wants you to take?

I haven't heard of a med student with misdemeanors applying for ophthalmology and I honestly doubt that its common.

 

[Colo344]

Why don't you contact some PDs in ophthalmology yourself and ask? What are the next steps that your dean wants you to take?

I haven't heard of a med student with misdemeanors applying for ophthalmology and I honestly doubt that its common.

I don't think she meant that a med student applying to Ophtho was common, just that it was more common than I thought that other med students also had similar misdemeanors. My dean asked me to consult an attorney associated with the school and all he really told me was that after he had his DA friend look into me, he found no record for me. Now I want to meet my dean again to see what she recommends.


Any other thoughts?

 

[JP2740]

Did you med school do a background check on you before starting? Usually they make those files available to you. I'm curious if that did come up with anything.

 

[pathologyDO]

This is a joke right? Nobody gives a flying $&@" about your misdemeanors from 7 years ago. I guarantee you that it will not keep you from getting into ophthalmology save for maybe a super religious PD or program. Everyone makes mistakes, and yours happened to be before medical school and many years ago.

 

[preDoGuy24]

I don't think she meant that a med student applying to Ophtho was common, just that it was more common than I thought that other med students also had similar misdemeanors. My dean asked me to consult an attorney associated with the school and all he really told me was that after he had his DA friend look into me, he found no record for me. Now I want to meet my dean again to see what she recommends.


Any other thoughts?

I believe on ERAS it only asks for convictions on your record. It is my understanding that the legal definition of expungement is the charge is stricken from the record as if it had never occurred and the person can move forward with jobs etc as if the charge had never occurred. If it was truly expunged anyone doing a background check will have to petition the specific court to have the records unsealed (i have a close friend who went through a similar situation, just an mip though it was different because he was applying to a military scholarship which are significantly more stringent in there background checks).

In short I believe ERAS asks for convictions, if you have an expunged charge you can honestly answer No to that question. If I were you I would think very hard before answering YES, this WILL affect your application in a very competitive field. When you apply for your license that is a different matter and I think it would be prudent to reveal even your expunged charges.

My two cents.

 

[Shjanzey]

Hey guys, I am a current M1 from a top 100 med school and was wondering if this person is serious? Please help, I must know!!

 

[Colo344]

Did you med school do a background check on you before starting? Usually they make those files available to you. I'm curious if that did come up with anything.

Well they had to run the certphi check on me when I was accepted and I know that didn't find anything. But again, that is not the same type of criminal record search that might be done for licensure purposes (aka federal) or even for residencies that may have a VA (again federal). My expungements make it so it won't show on private third party searches but I'm more concerned about saying "no" to having been convicted of a misdemeanor on ERAS and then having to relay that information to a PD as soon as I start with such a sour note.

 

[Colo344]

I believe on ERAS it only asks for convictions on your record. It is my understanding that the legal definition of expungement is the charge is stricken from the record as if it had never occurred and the person can move forward with jobs etc as if the charge had never occurred. If it was truly expunged anyone doing a background check will have to petition the specific court to have the records unsealed (i have a close friend who went through a similar situation, just an mip though it was different because he was applying to a military scholarship which are significantly more stringent in there background checks).

In short I believe ERAS asks for convictions, if you have an expunged charge you can honestly answer No to that question. If I were you I would think very hard before answering YES, this WILL affect your application in a very competitive field. When you apply for your license that is a different matter and I think it would be prudent to reveal even your expunged charges.

My two cents.

Thanks for the input. I know that residencies have to apply for a temporary license on your behalf when you start and I believe at that point they would discover these misdemeanors even though they aren't public record. I'm afraid if I don't disclose and this is when that information is discovered , I could get kicked out of that program.

Do you think this is not the case?

 

[Colo344]

@aProgDirector I hate to be a pain but could I possibly ask your input on this one?

 

[preDoGuy24]

Thanks for the input. I know that residencies have to apply for a temporary license on your behalf when you start and I believe at that point they would discover these misdemeanors even though they aren't public record. I'm afraid if I don't disclose and this is when that information is discovered , I could get kicked out of that program.

Do you think this is not the case?

No I don't think that's the case. I think you had it expunged and it is off your record, when you apply for a license you should put you have an expunged misdemeanor, your program will be fine with that. What you are trying to avoid is having your application ignored because programs filter out anyone who answers yes to that question on ERAS (just like they can filter out with cutoffs in board scores, or IMG or DO etc). This isn't a big deal till you get a license and then all you have to do is be honest. I would bet you aren't the only person in your class with an expunged MIP, it's really not a huge deal.

 

[camedstudent23]

Were you convicted, and the convictions were expunged? Or were the charges dismissed, and the arrest was expunged?

And in addition to the "have you ever been convicted" question, there is a "is there anything in your past that could limit your medical licensing" question. Expulsions means absolutely nothing on medical licensing forms (in fact, the legal paperwork for expulsions say they do not apply to any professional licensing), so it is possible that if you were **convicted**, it could become a problem in your medical licensing, and you should explain yourself in the ERAS in the latter question.

If your charges were dismissed (and then expunged), I would say answer 'no' on all counts on the ERAS, then answer 'yes' on licensing (to the question that asks about any and all arrests) and your PD should have no problem since a dismissal shouldn't affect licensing.

 

[Colo344]

Were you convicted, and the convictions were expunged? Or were the charges dismissed, and the arrest was expunged?

And in addition to the "have you ever been convicted" question, there is a "is there anything in your past that could limit your medical licensing" question. Expulsions means absolutely nothing on medical licensing forms (in fact, the legal paperwork for expulsions say they do not apply to any professional licensing), so it is possible that if you were **convicted**, it could become a problem in your medical licensing, and you should explain yourself in the ERAS in the latter question.

If your charges were dismissed (and then expunged), I would say answer 'no' on all counts on the ERAS, then answer 'yes' on licensing (to the question that asks about any and all arrests) and your PD should have no problem since a dismissal shouldn't affect licensing.

I was convicted, and the convictions were subsequently expunged. To my knowledge, just based on my own research, the charges against me shouldn't prevent me from eventually getting a license, but I'm sure the process will certainly not be as smooth as it may have been otherwise.

 

[camedstudent23]

I was convicted, and the convictions were subsequently expunged. To my knowledge, just based on my own research, the charges against me shouldn't prevent me from eventually getting a license, but I'm sure the process will certainly not be as smooth as it may have been otherwise.

Yeah, like I said expulsions mean nothing in medicine, so to a licensing board, it is a conviction. And although you will likely still get your license, a conviction has a relatively high chance of causing a delay and/or probationary measures (urine tests, etc). Because of this relatively high chance, you would not want to withhold the information from your PD until after you are accepted...because it could piss them off. So I would include it on your ERAS.

Anyways, you can definitely still match into ophtho, even in an elite ophtho program if your Step (in 3 years, >250 will be competitive for someone with no red flags), LOR's, research is great. So I wouldn't get too down about things you cannot change. Even if 25% of programs don't interview you because of this, you still got the other 75%. And I would bet the under on +/- 25% of programs caring if you explain openly on your ERAS, maybe the Harvard's and UCSF's of the world will use it as an excuse to decline you an interview, but you will be fine at most others.

 

[preDoGuy24]

Were you convicted, and the convictions were expunged? Or were the charges dismissed, and the arrest was expunged?

And in addition to the "have you ever been convicted" question, there is a "is there anything in your past that could limit your medical licensing" question. Expulsions means absolutely nothing on medical licensing forms (in fact, the legal paperwork for expulsions say they do not apply to any professional licensing), so it is possible that if you were **convicted**, it could become a problem in your medical licensing, and you should explain yourself in the ERAS in the latter question.

If your charges were dismissed (and then expunged), I would say answer 'no' on all counts on the ERAS, then answer 'yes' on licensing (to the question that asks about any and all arrests) and your PD should have no problem since a dismissal shouldn't affect licensing.

He doesn't say anything about being arrested, typically that's not done on college campuses for an MIP...at least where I went to school. I have never heard of an arrest being expunged while the charges remain on their record?

Honestly if an MIP causes a problem with licensing then their is gonna be a hell of a lot of med students out there not able to get their medical license after graduation. Be honest on all forms but you legally do not have to say anything about a charge if it was expunged (with the exception of professional licensing stuff). I think assuming a licensing board will do anything about an mip that was expunged is alarmist (pretty typical reaction on sdn).

It's not like the guy robbed a liquor store or got a DUI guys... This topic has been hashed extensively on sdn...if op is still nervous probably ought to get some actual legal advice from a non internet source, preferably a lawyer that knows how the legal system works and not a bunch of medical students who just think they do (myself included).

 

[Kag01]

Is the OP a troll?

 

[Colo344]

Is the OP a troll?

Not really sure why you think I'd be trolling about this. It clearly was worrying me enough to make this post and it has definite repercussions on my future.

 

[Colo344]

Any other unique insight?

 

[bg3323]

I'm in something of a similar situation, and call me optimistic/dumb but if past misdemeanors have been expunged, I do not feel that they need to be disclosed to ERAS. My issues were in Ohio and per their website, it says:

"expungement is the same as sealing a record. It is a court process that allows you to have any and all reference to a prior criminal conviction cleared and your court file sealed. It is just as if you were never convicted of the crime..... Once your record is expunged, nothing will show up when your record is checked. After expungement is finished, when asked about your past criminal record, you can honestly say that you have none. You can act as if the arrest and conviction never took place." http://www.reentrycoalition.ohio.gov/docs/expunge.pdf

I understand that this differs from state to state, but it seems very clear that (at least for Ohio) expunged records do not need to be disclosed. I agree that honesty is the best approach to this situation, but I didn't go through all of the hassle of getting my record expunged so that I would have to continue to bring these issues up on applications. Also, does anyone know of any horror stories of expunged records coming back to haunt someone in residency (i.e., they got kicked out for not disclosing it)?

 

[NontradCA]

Ask a licensing lawyer, not random opinionated people on SDN. This is akin to asking for advice on your diabetes medications.

 

[TwinsFan]

Full disclosure is always better than hiding things when it comes to medical licensing, if you disclosed it in your med school apps and got into a top school why would you think it will kill your residency apps?

 

[masaraksh]

Tell them the pot was for glaucoma

 

[Moose A Moose]

"Top 20" OP:

You were convicted and then expunged, buddy. Pretty sure you need to disclose, but you should still be okay (after all, you do attend such a prestigious med school.. Lol). If your charges were dismissed, and then those charges were expunged... That'd be a different story and you wouldn't have to bring the. Up (at least not until your federal licensing check).

You'll be okay, man.

 

[HawkYogi]

Does anyone know how this turned out? Did he/she apply already? I am in a very similar situation and am unsure about what to do? I only had one conviction of "MIP" expunged.

 

[TheFutureFatMan]

Pay for a federal background check.

 

[TheFutureFatMan]

Legally you are not obligated to disclose.

 

[Hazime0420]

Hello, I have a related issue, I got charged with public peace and possession of a weapon, In which the weapon was a be-be gun and it was not mine. I'm starting undergrad and I'm in a pre-med program in michigan state university. I wanted to know what ended up happening with the previous people asking about residency. Did your previous charges affect residency programs , or did you disclose before hand?
I really hope you get back to me
Thank you

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Hello, I have a related issue, I got charged with public peace and possession of a weapon, In which the weapon was a be-be gun and it was not mine. I'm starting undergrad and I'm in a pre-med program in michigan state university. I wanted to know what ended up happening with the previous people asking about residency. Did your previous charges affect residency programs , or did you disclose before hand?
I really hope you get back to me
Thank you

You're getting a little ahead of yourself. You should be taking this question to the premed section and asking if it will/would affect your future medical school applications. (Unless by "pre-med program" you mean BS/MD?)

 

[Peach Newport]

Yeah, like I said expulsions mean nothing in medicine, so to a licensing board, it is a conviction. And although you will likely still get your license, a conviction has a relatively high chance of causing a delay and/or probationary measures (urine tests, etc). Because of this relatively high chance, you would not want to withhold the information from your PD until after you are accepted...because it could piss them off. So I would include it on your ERAS.

Anyways, you can definitely still match into ophtho, even in an elite ophtho program if your Step (in 3 years, >250 will be competitive for someone with no red flags), LOR's, research is great. So I wouldn't get too down about things you cannot change. Even if 25% of programs don't interview you because of this, you still got the other 75%. And I would bet the under on +/- 25% of programs caring if you explain openly on your ERAS, maybe the Harvard's and UCSF's of the world will use it as an excuse to decline you an interview, but you will be fine at most others.

Delay of licensing, probationary measures, and urine tests... for misdemeanor possession of marijuana at age 20? I highly doubt this, that sounds pretty extreme. Do you have any particular reason to say this, or are you just guessing?

That’s the kind of thing you’d see for a doc found to be shooting meth and potentially putting lives in danger, not a student with a ancient misdemeanor pot arrest.

 

[libertyyne]

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