Applying URM, Whats stopping me?

[luckycharms08]

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it's interesting that one of your officer positions is with hillel. seems like you identify with being jewish, not hispanic. an adcom would wonder why you participated in a jewish student organization and not any latino ones. how do you plan to explain that one?

 

[riceman04]

frosted lucky charms...they're magically delicious...sorry I could not help it

 

[foreverLaur]

i'm 1/4 Native American (Cherokee), but I know absolutely nothing about the Native Americans beyond what every kid learns in school, so I don't mention it. I feel that I shouldn't reap the benefits of something that I am clueless about, don't practice, don't feel passionate about, etc.

 

[riceman04]

Sticks and stones
can crush my toes
but youre still really annoying

The fact that you are trying to elicit an conversation on this topic through trolling is a bit sad!

You clearly have no intentions of applying as "hispanic"...move on and just prep for this up and coming cycle.

 

[Ian1223]

I am just trying to find out more about the application process. I wish more posters would take more time to look before they judge.

I now see how this is a very sensitive issue to alot of people. AA is about giving opportunities to the children of people who were discriminated against based on their skin color or where they were from before they came to America and werent given all of the opportunities they were entitled to. I respect your passion for maintaining AA.

I was speaking at school with some friends who had applied to med school as latino and believed they had done better in the process because of it.

I thought Id ask and see whether other SDNers thought I was entitled.

I could tell you stories about how my relatives have been discriminated against for being Jewish but that is another story. Besides, being Jewish doesnt help you to become a doctor anyway.

 

[scowdeva]

For the last time, URM is not about making up for descrimination experienced by our ancestors. If anyone digs back far enough, they will have an ancestor that was unjustly persecuted (serfs, racial groups, social castes, differing religious beliefs). There are just some groups in America that are UNDERrepresented in medicine, and some that are OVERrepresented in medicine.

If you want to try applying a second year as Hispanic, with one application season already under your belt as white, by all means give it a shot. Let us know how it works out for you. I'm telling you though, your friends that 'did better' applying as hispanic likely just had better files (not necessarily numbers, but all of the intangibles). People on SDN seem to focus in way too closely to just numbers, and exclude the other factors. No two people are equal in the eyes of the adcoms, there is just too much that is subjective about the process. There are plenty of people who qualify as URM that aren't sweeping up acceptances, and there are some that are. Maybe it has to do with other aspects of their lives and files? What a novel concept!

 

[paranoid_eyes]

I think I need some legal clarification.

the bottom line is, med schools can accept or reject you for WHATEVER reason they want. that includes trying to be a smartass about your ethnicity. It is REAL easy to tell if you are white or hispanic: look at your family tree. Can you speak fluent spanish? I mean, cmon, you'll kill yourself at the interview when they see you aren't really a URM (assuming you are not. if you are then by ALL means put down your true heritage).

i think a white guy tried to sue the University of California Regents for the whole affirmative action thing. He lost.

bottom line, i wouldn't lie about this stuff because no matter how far you take the issue, you'll always end up losing.

 

[UVABranch]

I have to say this is by far the craziest conversation I've seen in a while. Based on my personal understanding, the URM distinction is basically for minorities in the US, as both defined by themselves and to some extent society. If you view yourself as a white person, but think you may have some distant ethnic relative I don't think that's in keeping with the true intention of the "URM" status. As a minority with a ton of other close and distant racial backgrounds than constitute my racial/ethnic makeup it's like me claiming myself solely as an Irish person since my great grandfather was part Irish for the purposes of medical school applications, even though everything I've known to this day and considered myself to be is an African American (of mixed background). To use this distinction as a means to get a leg up I think is inappropriate especially if you see yourself as white, your parents see themselves and you as such, and if you were not applying to med school you would not have entertained the idea of reevaluating your racial makeup. I know of plenty of people who go through a reevaluation process of a number of reasons, but just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. g'luck.

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

LOL

post of the year

 

[kevster2001]

If you have to ask, youre just exploiting the system. if you're ok with that, i pray you dont become my colleague

 

[LizzyM]

"U" means underserved. That means your area does not have adequate healthcare facilities. I'm not sure how it's exactly determined.

An underserved county has too few primary care providers per 1,000 population, IIRC.

It is ironic that New York County (Manhattan) is underserved although it is home to 4 medical schools.

 

[Ian1223]

While I was writing my personal statement and secondary essays I was constantly reevaluating my capacity to be a doctor. The good traits and the bad, all with the hope of becoming a better person in the process.

I dont know why choosing to be a minority or of a different ethnic group can be a bad thing. Or how it is any different than my essay writing process. Like other posters have said, it will allow me to connect with an underserved portion of society. In essence its just developing good traits through personal development.

I dont see why any latino or black or any other person is different than me anyway. Or how being Jewish has made me a different person than anyone else. Are people who describe themselves as of a different ethnicity really unalike from you and me? If I want to, and the goal is ultimately positive, I should be able to subscribe to any ethnicity I want.

I understand that many people hold their ethnicity very sacred to them but why does my changing myself have to infringe upon that?

If the goal of AA is to identify future doctors that have the potential to reach underserved populations, something I have been doing my entire life, then why cant changing my ethnicity status be anything other than labeling myself as a person who has those interests?

 

[dancinRN1022]

While I was writing my personal statement and secondary essays I was constantly reevaluating my capacity to be a doctor. The good traits and the bad, all with the hope of becoming a better person in the process.

I dont know why choosing to be a minority or of a different ethnic group can be a bad thing. Or how it is any different than my essay writing process. Like other posters have said, it will allow me to connect with an underserved portion of society. In essence its just developing good traits through personal development.

I dont see why any latino or black or any other person is different than me anyway. Or how being Jewish has made me a different person than anyone else. Are people who describe themselves as of a different ethnicity really unalike from you and me? If I want to, I should be able to subscribe to any ethnicity I want.

Just because society says something, doesnt mean it is right.

I have nothing intellectual to add to this conversation...but i couldn't help but enjoy this absurdity😀😀...i don't think you really believe any of this stuff you are saying... i think you were just bored...or probably trying to get ppl upset with you...i say we just leave you alone and let you do whatever you want...go ahead...write that you are african american or latino or even native american on your applications...go ahead...and then tell us how it all worked out for you...

and when they see a white guy walk into their office....recite the same paragraph u just typed... its america you are allowed to do what ever you want...just make sure you report back to us...

 

[Ian1223]

I have nothing intellectual to add to this conversation...but i couldn't help but enjoy this absurdity😀😀...i don't think you really believe any of this stuff you are saying... i think you were just bored...or probably trying to get ppl upset with you...i say we just leave you alone and let you do whatever you want...go ahead...write that you are african american or latino or even native american on your applications...go ahead...and then tell us how it all worked out for you...

and when they see a white guy walk into their office....recite the same paragraph u just typed... its america you are allowed to do what ever you want...just make sure you report back to us...

Again, with this seeing a white guy, why does how I look effect my latino experience?

 

[surfstarj]

I was speaking at school with some friends who had applied to med school as latino and believed they had done better in the process because of it.

that's despicable.

I could tell you stories about how my relatives have been discriminated against for being Jewish but that is another story. Besides, being Jewish doesnt help you to become a doctor anyway.

Yes, atrocious things have happened to lots of ethnic groups, and are still happening today. You can't just change your name to Weinstein-ez to try to milk the system.

 

[patrickd223]

You could pull it off until you got to the interview where they would quickly reject you and make jokes about you to their colleagues. 😀

 

[Ian1223]

If you are not going to take my posts seriously, then please refrain from posting.

Thank you

 

[Ian1223]

I'm telling you though, your friends that 'did better' applying as hispanic likely just had better files (not necessarily numbers, but all of the intangibles).

They told me I had way better stats and more volunteer experience then either of them.

 

[anya1207]

While I was writing my personal statement and secondary essays I was constantly reevaluating my capacity to be a doctor. The good traits and the bad, all with the hope of becoming a better person in the process.

I dont know why choosing to be a minority or of a different ethnic group can be a bad thing. Or how it is any different than my essay writing process. Like other posters have said, it will allow me to connect with an underserved portion of society. In essence its just developing good traits through personal development.

I dont see why any latino or black or any other person is different than me anyway. Or how being Jewish has made me a different person than anyone else. Are people who describe themselves as of a different ethnicity really unalike from you and me? If I want to, and the goal is ultimately positive, I should be able to subscribe to any ethnicity I want.

I understand that many people hold their ethnicity very sacred to them but why does my changing myself have to infringe upon that?

If the goal of AA is to identify future doctors that have the potential to reach underserved populations, something I have been doing my entire life, then why cant changing my ethnicity status be anything other than labeling myself as a person who has those interests?

well some latinos look white, so by appearance someone may not question. But what will they do if they ask you where in latin america,spain, cuba or puerto rico your family is from? What if your interviewer is of the same nationality and starts asking you things ANYONE of that nationality would know?

You dont have to label yourself as a URM to let adcoms know that you want to reach the underserved. You can write that in your personal statement, or better yet SHOW them through past activities and community service you have done. If you really care about the underserved so much, then i'm sure you have extracurriculars that show that, right?

 

[Ian1223]

well some latinos look white, so by appearance someone may not question. But what will they do if they ask you where in latin america,spain, cuba or puerto rico your family is from? What if your interviewer is of the same nationality and starts asking you things ANYONE of that nationality would know?

Ill tell them the truth, that I dont know where they are from.

You dont have to label yourself as a URM to let adcoms know that you want to reach the underserved. You can write that in your personal statement, or better yet SHOW them through past activities and community service you have done. If you really care about the underserved so much, then i'm sure you have extracurriculars that show that, right?

Yes

Are any Adcoms in the forum who can give us some incite into the basis upon which they evaluate self-identifying URMs as deserving of the label?

 

[frikarika]

Ian1223...you are an idiot. As someone who actually is Latino and has grown up in a spanish speaking household, I find what you are trying to do as offensive. You obviously have zero ties to Latino culture and are just trying to get a "leg up". Go ahead and apply as hispanic...you can be sure you'll be asked about it during interviews, and you'll fall flat on your face. My culture and my background were huge motivations for me going into medicine, and I discussed this in my PS, secondaries, and interviews, so if you think it's as easy as "checking hispanic" then you are gravely mistaken. 👎

 

[drkewl]

As an adcom member at UVA who interviews and votes on candidates, heres my take on this issue.

a) Unquestionably, URMs have an advantage, fair or unfair. It definitely helps you gain an interview. Now once your are in the interview pool, things are more even, but all things being equal, the URM candidate will be taken ahead of any White/Asian candidate.
b) What is a URM? The standard definition is that either your parents or grandparents are 100% latino/a, african american, or native american, end of story. A real advantage for an applicant will arise if they are a URM AND they are disadvantaged... These people did not have the luxury of taking SAT/MCAT prep courses, have the best schooling available to them, and probably grew up in a not so challenging academic environment. These are the people we want in medicine to maintain diversity of background and life experience(which is a good thing). Being a URM with parents who have 'professional' jobs lessens the advantage because we know you probably didn't grow up in a ghetto and live in a trailer, meaning you had opportunities that a truly disadvantaged person would not; however, this does not change the fact that you will still add diversity and unique exps to the class, which is considered when the adcom votes.

It does not look good on interview when a blond white girl comes in as 'hispanic' but can't speak a lick spanish and when asked can't say anything about her hispanic heritage. If I smell a fraud, I will not look favorably on the applicant, regardless of her statistics. That being said, a more common story would be someone whos mom immigrated from Cuba and married a white guy in the US. The applicant can't speak fluent spanish and grew up north of Florida. That person is a URM and will be viewed as such by the ADCOM. They would add their unique life exps and diversity to the class and that is very compelling to us. There is definitely a 'spectrum' of URMs. The more 'real' you are, the bigger the advantage.. I have a good idea where an applicant falls on the spectrum after interview based on their answers.

c) The OP, based on what he/she has posted, would not qualify as a URM in my book. If you are not 'sure' then you are not.

 

[drkewl]

My culture and my background were huge motivations for me going into medicine, and I discussed this in my PS, secondaries, and interviews, so if you think it's as easy as "checking hispanic" then you are gravely mistaken. 👎

Completely agree with this statement. The best URM candidates don't just check the box and expect to be given a handout. They are prepared to write and talk about their unique background and exps, how that helped them choose medicine as a profession, and how their diversity will be a wonderful addition to our profession. This is very difficult to 'fake', trust me...

 

[luckycharms08]

They told me I had way better stats and more volunteer experience then either of them.

It doesn't seem like your logic is very good or that you're a great writer though. Did you have other people read your personal statement? That could be one thing holding you back. Another is that your ONLY clinical experience from your MDapps is your "Florida Hospital/UCF Co-op Externship Spring ‘06". You do have other volunteer experiences, but you don't have any other CLINICAL experiences, which adcoms weigh heavily on. You also have a lot of financial extracurriculars. If I was an adcom, I'd wonder if you were really committed to this or if you really just wanted to go into finance.

I definitely think it's the intangibles hurting you. When were all your secondaries submitted?

I think that there's a TON of things you could improve on before the next application cycle, and fabricating a new ethnicity is not one of them.

PS - Caucasian URM looks absurd on your MDapps.

 

[Cardiac]

I have to say this is by far the craziest conversation I've seen in a while. Based on my personal understanding, the URM distinction is basically for minorities in the US, as both defined by themselves and to some extent society. If you view yourself as a white person, but think you may have some distant ethnic relative I don't think that's in keeping with the true intention of the "URM" status. As a minority with a ton of other close and distant racial backgrounds than constitute my racial/ethnic makeup it's like me claiming myself solely as an Irish person since my great grandfather was part Irish for the purposes of medical school applications, even though everything I've known to this day and considered myself to be is an African American (of mixed background). To use this distinction as a means to get a leg up I think is inappropriate especially if you see yourself as white, your parents see themselves and you as such, and if you were not applying to med school you would not have entertained the idea of reevaluating your racial makeup. I know of plenty of people who go through a reevaluation process of a number of reasons, but just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. g'luck.

It makes no sense to me that you then are using the appearance of your skin or, more precisely, the appearance of your parents skin in order for you to gain this leg up. If you think that you deserve to use this advantage in applying to medical school than why doesn't he, who also has mixed descant and identifies with the Hispanic community. For that matter, because I identify with the African-American community, why can't I apply as black even though I am clearly not.

I wonder how it makes sense that you are more qualified for this leg up than I am, even though I have lived amongst and identified with both Africans and African-Americans throughout my life. By this logic, it would seem as if medical schools are giving an advantage based solely on your appearance not on your experience compared to mine, which is one of the most racist things I have ever encountered.

As to the OP, if you think that you are Hispanic in any way and are willing to have a legitimate conversation with people explaining why you said this, then check that box by all means.

 

[drkewl]

If the goal of AA is to identify future doctors that have the potential to reach underserved populations, something I have been doing my entire life, then why cant changing my ethnicity status be anything other than labeling myself as a person who has those interests?

That is not the goal of AA. Do your homework before you make such an ignorant statement. I also doubt you have been serving underserved populations for your entire life... maybe i'm wrong, but working at a soup kitchen and doing an occasional weekend project to help the 'poor' is noble, but falls far short of what you are implying.

I looked at your MDapps file. Everything looks fine.. your science gpa is a bit borderline which may have hurt you. Also, we obviously can't see your secondary application or personal statemtent, and while different schools weigh that part of your applicant differently, that often overlooked part of the application can really hurt a candidate if not done well.

 

[anya1207]

It doesn't seem like your logic is very good or that you're a great writer though. Did you have other people read your personal statement? That could be one thing holding you back. Another is that your ONLY clinical experience from your MDapps is your "Florida Hospital/UCF Co-op Externship Spring ‘06". You do have other volunteer experiences, but you don't have any other CLINICAL experiences, which adcoms weigh heavily on. You also have a lot of financial extracurriculars. If I was an adcom, I'd wonder if you were really committed to this or if you really just wanted to go into finance.

I definitely think it's the intangibles hurting you. When were all your secondaries submitted?

I think that there's a TON of things you could improve on before the next application cycle, and fabricating a new ethnicity is not one of them.

PS - Caucasian URM looks absurd on your MDapps.

u can check the disadvantaged box and explain why you are disadvantaged. Just because you are white doesnt mean you had access to good schools and test preps. Just because you are white doesnt mean you didnt grow up in a "ghetto". There are white people with disadvantaged backgrounds too and I think they should be looked at the same way a black or latino disadvantaged applicant is looked upon. i dont like how on SDN it seems as if everyone thinks black/latino= poor, grew up in ghetto, and that white= grew up in suburbia and went to great schools. if you are white and disadvantaged, then check it off and explain why.

 

[midn]

Ill tell them the truth, that I dont know where they are from.



Yes

Are any Adcoms in the forum who can give us some incite into the basis upon which they evaluate self-identifying URMs as deserving of the label?

Originally, I thought that your question, although ethically questionable, had innocuous intentions. Despite all that has been said, you are still entertaining the option as applying as URM. You have not only completely missed the point of the URM designation despite several different persons explaining you the different aspects of it, you continue to defend the possibility of applying as URM.

If your posts are any bit indicative of your intelligence, I can see why you have not been very successful in the application process.

I fear for your lack of ethics.

 

[surfstarj]

Originally, I thought that your question, although ethically questionable, had innocuous intentions....If your posts are any bit indicative of your intelligence, I can see why you have not been very successful in the application process.

👍

SEE ALSO:

I suppose that we are nearing the part of the annual SDN cycle where everyone who didn't get in where they want decides they need to go out with a bang. A few quick suggestions for you before starting a thread bashing a certain school, degree, or random group of their choosing:

1) You're on the pre-allo forums. This isn't the pre-osteo forum, the 'International' forum, or the Stewart University forum. If you are of the opinion that your future degree makes US allopathic programs look awful, that's great - we don't care. If you're so insecure that you feel the need to explain how your degree is not inferior, you should spend more time thinking about that and less time typing.

2) You're not smarter/better/more attractive/well-endowed than the people that out-competed you this application cycle. If you were, you would have beaten them. If you are, in fact, the second coming of Christ and you were overlooked this application cycle because of some antisemite - that sucks. But you should realize that we don't care that you were overlooked - whining about it will not get you sympathy. Of all things, you will not convince us over the internet that you are Jesus Jr. and god's personal gift to the field of medicine.

3) You're not special. You don't live in a magical place where things happen that never occur anywhere else in the world. If sally-joe-suckup wears her gunner t-shirt to class every day and stabs the first 5 people that hand in their orgo exam early, you can bet the same phenomena occurs at every undergraduate institution in the country. We all deal with the same crap from professors, classmates, and the rest of society.

If you're in somewhere, be happy that you are. It's a crapshoot and you made it through the other end. Being pissy or flaming an admissions director won't get you another acceptance letter.

If you're not, I'm honestly sorry. Don't give up - spend the next year kicking *** and taking names. There is a reason that underdog stories inspire people, make it happen. You will appreciate the privilege all the more.

 

[drkewl]

u can check the disadvantaged box and explain why you are disadvantaged. Just because you are white doesnt mean you had access to good schools and test preps. Just because you are white doesnt mean you didnt grow up in a "ghetto". There are white people with disadvantaged backgrounds too and I think they should be looked at the same way a black or latino disadvantaged applicant is looked upon. i dont like how on SDN it seems as if everyone thinks black/latino= poor, grew up in ghetto, and that white= grew up in suburbia and went to great schools. if you are white and disadvantaged, then check it off and explain why.

ABSOLUTELY correct. I did not write this down on my original post. I personally have a very special place in my heart for ANY disadvantaged person, URM or not. There are some very touching stories out there

 

[Ian1223]

Thanks guys

Ive learned alot more than I knew before about URM

 

[Ian1223]

That is not the goal of AA. Do your homework before you make such an ignorant statement. I also doubt you have been serving underserved populations for your entire life... maybe i'm wrong, but working at a soup kitchen and doing an occasional weekend project to help the 'poor' is noble, but falls far short of what you are implying.

I looked at your MDapps file. Everything looks fine.. your science gpa is a bit borderline which may have hurt you. Also, we obviously can't see your secondary application or personal statemtent, and while different schools weigh that part of your applicant differently, that often overlooked part of the application can really hurt a candidate if not done well.

In middle school, I was the teacher's assistant in the class for underachieving students for 2 years. I was the all A student they looked up to.

In high school, I volunteered at a community center in a park where many of those kids went after school for 4 years.

Freshman year of college, my dad helped me get me a prestigious finance internship in NYC which I went to but decided to turn down for medicine because of the lack of connecting with people in need.

My college creds are on mdapps

Ive always had a passion for connecting with other people, not necessarily underserved populations.

And my personal statement was really a family affair that I spent 2 months on. I wanted it to be perfect. The beginning is a little sappy but besides that its fine.

Applying as hispanic was something I never considered before because I dont see myself that way. Theres no way I could ever describe myself as disadvantaged, thats probably why I didnt get more interviews. Part of me wishes I could because then I would have been more successful in the cycle.

Quote from my PS:

Looking back, coping with family crises as an adolescent to overcoming academic challenges at the outset of my college career has been a path of personal growth, discovery, and perception altering experiences. All of these have contributed to my decision to become a doctor and I cannot imagine myself doing anything else. I hope to make my life as a doctor about devoting time and efforts towards helping people recover from illness so they may be with the family they love, just as the doctors who worked to save my family did for me.

 

[BigRedPremed]

That is not the goal of AA.

That's news to me. We have always been spoon-fed the "more likely to serve underserved populations" defense of AA by pro-AAers and even by the AAMC.

Good to know though.

 

[drkewl]

That's news to me. We have always been spoon-fed the "more likely to serve underserved populations" defense of AA by pro-AAers and even by the AAMC.

Good to know though.

Anyone who comes from an underserved area is supposedly more likely to go back regardless of race. I think the reality is AA helps give an advantage to those who grew up with a disadvantage. How much of an advantage is a case by case / institution by institution basis. If they serve the underserved in the future, thats a great bonus, but no one can hold them to that. Also, (to play devils advocate) I am unaware of any hard statistics that actually prove they are actually more likely to go back. I think the 'evidence' is more anecdotal than anything.

 

[drkewl]

In middle school, I was the teacher's assistant in the class for underachieving students for 2 years. I was the all A student they looked up to.

In high school, I volunteered at a community center in a park where many of those kids went after school for 4 years.

Freshman year of college, my dad helped me get me a prestigious finance internship in NYC which I went to but decided to turn down for medicine because of the lack of connecting with people in need.

My college creds are on mdapps

Ive always had a passion for connecting with other people, not necessarily underserved populations.

And my personal statement was really a family affair that I spent 2 months on. I wanted it to be perfect. The beginning is a little sappy but besides that its fine.

Applying as hispanic was something I never considered before because I dont see myself that way. Theres no way I could ever describe myself as disadvantaged, thats probably why I didnt get more interviews. Part of me wishes I could because then I would have been more successful in the cycle.

Quote from my PS:

Looking back, coping with family crises as an adolescent to overcoming academic challenges at the outset of my college career has been a path of personal growth, discovery, and perception altering experiences. All of these have contributed to my decision to become a doctor and I cannot imagine myself doing anything else. I hope to make my life as a doctor about devoting time and efforts towards helping people recover from illness so they may be with the family they love, just as the doctors who worked to save my family did for me.

So, basically, you can perhaps relate more to an URM or a disadvantaged person, which is good... but this not a reason to check of URM in an application.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Anyone who comes from an underserved area is supposedly more likely to go back regardless of race. I think the reality is AA helps give an advantage to those who grew up with a disadvantage. How much of an advantage is a case by case / institution by institution basis. If they serve the underserved in the future, thats a great bonus, but no one can hold them to that. Also, (to play devils advocate) I am unaware of any hard statistics that actually prove they are actually more likely to go back. I think the 'evidence' is more anecdotal than anything.

I haven't seen any stats either. I believe the only concrete data the AAMC had was the fact that based on SURVEYS administered to med students, a greater percentage of minority med students indicated (although this was not binding or anything) that they would practice in an underserved area. I don't think this was ever followed up although if it was I'd be interested in seeing the data.

Unfortunately, I don't share your sentiment that AA is used to help out those who came from disadvantaged backgrounds. I think it's used to a) boost a school's diversity ego b) provide a more interesting and balanced med school environment c) increase the proportion of minority physicians.

Since you are on the adcom, would you say that checking the disadvantaged box on the AMCAS carries as much weight as being an privileged (ie not disadvantaged) URM? Please be honest.

 

[drkewl]

Unfortunately, I don't share your sentiment that AA is used to help out those who came from disadvantaged backgrounds. I think it's used to a) boost a school's diversity ego b) provide a more interesting and balanced med school environment c) increase the proportion of minority physicians.

Since you are on the adcom, would you say that checking the disadvantaged box on the AMCAS carries as much weight as being an privileged (ie not disadvantaged) URM? Please be honest.

Well, it is absolutely used to help those from disadvantaged background... but also for many other things including what you have said. Medical school adcoms directors have to answer to the schools board of visitors... it is unacceptable to have a class that lacks diversity these days and AA helps diversity in medicine become a reality.

Honestly, to answer your question, it depends. EVERYONE is taken on a case by case basis. at UVA, regardless of whether you check disadvantaged, some applicants are treated as such if they are from rural poor areas (for example many counties in south western virginia which is mostly farm country). Some check disadvantaged because their parents are divorced so they feel 'disadvantaged'. Others who have had their homes wiped away by hurricane katrina, have been displaced, and have supported themselves AND their families through college have NOT checked disadvantaged because they feel blessed to have what they do have. We take all of this into consideration... and as I posted above, URMs often fall into a spectrum as i posted above. I have NEVER heard any ADCOM member making the argument that URM is > disadvantaged or vice versa.

 

[TheRealMD]

On the AMCAS application, you never mark a URM box, at all. Period. And if you want to go "misrepresenting" your race without knowing about the culture, then you are likely to get burned. And even if you play that game, it's how you are perceived, not what you really are.

The fact that you have to discuss it means that you want to take advantage of it. How about you improve your application by focusing on things that will make you a better applicant, and not game the system?

 

[Ian1223]

Well, it is absolutely used to help those from disadvantaged background... but also for many other things including what you have said. Medical school adcoms directors have to answer to the schools board of visitors... it is unacceptable to have a class that lacks diversity these days and AA helps diversity in medicine become a reality.

Honestly, to answer your question, it depends. EVERYONE is taken on a case by case basis. at UVA, regardless of whether you check disadvantaged, some applicants are treated as such if they are from rural poor areas (for example many counties in south western virginia which is mostly farm country). Some check disadvantaged because their parents are divorced so they feel 'disadvantaged'. Others who have had their homes wiped away by hurricane katrina, have been displaced, and have supported themselves AND their families through college have NOT checked disadvantaged because they feel blessed to have what they do have. We take all of this into consideration... and as I posted above, URMs often fall into a spectrum as i posted above. I have NEVER heard any ADCOM member making the argument that URM is > disadvantaged or vice versa.

Dr. Kewl,

Why do schools use race to determine who they admit when they have the option of relying on disadvantaged status alone. Why think about race at all?

 

[luckycharms08]

u can check the disadvantaged box and explain why you are disadvantaged. Just because you are white doesnt mean you had access to good schools and test preps. Just because you are white doesnt mean you didnt grow up in a "ghetto". There are white people with disadvantaged backgrounds too and I think they should be looked at the same way a black or latino disadvantaged applicant is looked upon. i dont like how on SDN it seems as if everyone thinks black/latino= poor, grew up in ghetto, and that white= grew up in suburbia and went to great schools. if you are white and disadvantaged, then check it off and explain why.

read what i wrote again. i never said that he wasn't disadvantaged because he was white. i never even said anything in reference to him possibly being disadvantaged. i know plenty of affluent minorities and i know plenty of poor whites. i was just trying to show the OP that there could be other things lacking in his application other than URM status.

OP - you said you've never thought of yourself as hispanic and that you could never describe yourself as disadvantaged. so haven't you answered your own question?

 

[drkewl]

Dr. Kewl,

Why do schools use race to determine who they admit when they have the option of relying on disadvantaged status alone. Why think about race at all?

Race is one factor (among many others) that we consider. I can assure you that race alone won't get you an interview or an acceptance letter... but it is something we take into account along with the rest of the application because we want a diverse class from different backgrounds (whether that is racial, socioeconomic, age, whatever). Diversity is very healthy... You never want to be somewhere where everyone is just like you... you may be more 'comfortable' but you will miss out on learning incredible things from others who are very different from you.

That being said, the key counterargument to this is "diversity is all fine and good... but why lower the standards for admission in the name of diversity?" This I think is the key issue that many non-minorities/non-disadvantaged people have a problem with. The answer is complicated and probably worth another thread in itself. IMHO, the key lies in the thought of the equalization of opportunities to all, regardless of upbringing. Its hard to compare MCAT scores and GPAs with someone who has the economic ability to afford prep classes, be sent to the best schools, etc. with someone who doesn't have those advantages. Does that mean they are dumber or less worthy? no.. just not given the same opportunities that many of us have had. This is a way to equal the playing field. AA / hispanic / native americans historically and statistically are poorer, receive worse education, and are less prepared to do well in college, on standardized tests, etc. The % of AA / hispanics in medicine is far less than their respective proportions in our general population, So it is our duty on the ADCOM to keep this in mind when considering these applicants in order to maintain diversity in our profession.

just an fyi, I am not a minority and have been "over-privileged" in my life compared to most.

 

[Ian1223]

OP - you said you've never thought of yourself as hispanic and that you could never describe yourself as disadvantaged. so haven't you answered your own question?

I could never argue myself as disadvantaged but I do make a great argument about my ability to connect with disadvantaged people based on past experience. This is basically the core message of my entire application.

As far as being hispanic, I could see myself making the argument that I am hispanic and also see myself believing it too. If you can be related to people who identify/identified themselves as hispanic and can also relate to people who identify themselves as hispanic, why cant you also?

Even then, if you grew up in a strong hispanic culture but your parents had originally moved to that location from somewhere without a hispanic presence, why cant you choose to identify with the culture of your new location?

Who can say with certainty what really makes someone hispanic or black? Can you? Why do you believe those reasons are valid?

Now, how can you say I shouldnt be given the opportunity to subscribe to whichever ethnicity I feel most comfortable with describing myself as?

 

[scowdeva]

Now, how can you say I shouldnt be given the opportunity to subscribe to whichever ethnicity I feel most comfortable with describing myself as?

But this isn't how you phrased this thread when you opened it. It doesn't seem like you identify with being hispanic- you just seem to WANT to so that you can get something that you think will give you an advantage. You obviously seem to describe your ethnicity as white, except for wanting to claim that you have a huge hispanic presence in your life due to a distant and removed possible great-grandparent.

I'm half Native, half Irish, but I grew up in a predominantly black area. Does this mean that I can go around and claim that I am black? NO!!!! I'm not black, I might be familiar with the culture and have a lot of black friends, but that doesn't change my race or ethnicity!

And I find it hard to believe that you truly think that you can 'connect' with underpriviledged people because you did some weekend volunteering. It has been my experience that few if any rich people can truly understand what it is like to grow up on welfare and food stamps, and all of the other aspects of growing up with nothing. If you've lived it you get it, if you've lived WITH people who live it (ie lived in the community for an extended period of time) you may at least have a realistic idea, but doling out some free soup for a few hours doesn't mean that you get it. Once again, adcoms can sniff these differences out if they're asking the right questions. Good luck convincing them, because your arguments on here are weak. If you're going to go through with this next cycle, you may want to put some time into these arguments so they don't fall as flat.

 

[Ian1223]

But this isn't how you phrased this thread when you opened it. It doesn't seem like you identify with being hispanic- you just seem to WANT to so that you can get something that you think will give you an advantage. You obviously seem to describe your ethnicity as white, except for wanting to claim that you have a huge hispanic presence in your life due to a distant and removed possible great-grandparent.

I should be able to choose to identify with being hispanic if I want, and you're exaggerating my words.

I'm half Native, half Irish, but I grew up in a predominantly black area. Does this mean that I can go around and claim that I am black? NO!!!! I'm not black, I might be familiar with the culture and have a lot of black friends, but that doesn't change my race or ethnicity!

Why not?

And I find it hard to believe that you truly think that you can 'connect' with underpriviledged people because you did some weekend volunteering.

Between all of those hours on Tuesdays and Thursdays during middle school, volunteering in high school, as well as the recent surge in college, I wouldnt be surprised if my hours went up in the thousands and probably beyond. Volunteering has been an essential part of my life.

It has been my experience that few if any rich people can truly understand what it is like to grow up on welfare and food stamps, and all of the other aspects of growing up with nothing. If you've lived it you get it, if you've lived WITH people who live it (ie lived in the community for an extended period of time) you may at least have a realistic idea, but doling out some free soup for a few hours doesn't mean that you get it. Once again, adcoms can sniff these differences out if they're asking the right questions. Good luck convincing them, because your arguments on here are weak. If you're going to go through with this next cycle, you may want to put some time into these arguments so they don't fall as flat.

Im not trying to say I was underprivileged, just that I deserve the right to subscribe to whatever ethnicity I see fit and the right to be considered as such by adcoms. The two are mutually exclusive.

And with the soup doling, see above.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

You....are just trying to get a "leg up".

uhhhh.....aren't you doing the same thing? i don't wanna turn this into a AA flame war, but seriously, URMs should not be saying something like this because it is blatant hypocrisy. 👎 👎

 

[surfstarj]

uhhhh.....aren't you doing the same thing? i don't wanna turn this into a AA flame war, but seriously, URMs should not be saying something like this because it is blatant hypocrisy. 👎 👎

I don't think if you are actually URM that you are necessarily trying to get a leg up. If you don't like the system, that's one thing; but don't attack the URM applicants for being who they are. Just like a white kid can't check off "Hispanic" on the application to get a leg up, someone who is African American can't check off white or Asian to eliminate any URM consideration they may receive. I am not a huge fan of aa but, sorry, i don't think any URM who has objected to the OP here is out of line. You are what you are. You have two options, check the correct ethnicity or check off "decline to respond"...med schools decide what to do with you once your application is submitted.

 

[Ian1223]

You are what you are.

And Im hispanic because I am

 

[surfstarj]

... I deserve the right to subscribe to whatever ethnicity I see fit and the right to be considered as such by adcoms. The two are mutually exclusive.

Dude, I'm sorry. You may see that you're "entitled" to portraying whatever race you imagine yourself or your grandma's uncle's cousin may or may not have been at some point....but adcoms WILL NOT consider you as such. Plus, you're far too uncouth to pull off such a facade if ever given the chance.

 

[surfstarj]

And Im hispanic because I am

Just keep telling yourself that, my friend. You've got bigger problems than getting into med school it seems.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

i don't think any URM who has objected to the OP here is out of line

on what grounds do they have to be angry though?