approach to antisocial patients

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

rhiannon777

Full Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
75
Reaction score
0
I'm looking for some advice on your general approach to the patient with ASPD, particularly with short-term hospitalizations (drug detox, commitment, etc.). How do you form some sort of rapport with someone who views you as an enemy? I find myself passing the buck (e.g. "the judge decided you need to stay here for your safety") to keep the peace, and I don't think that's effective or fair. Thanks!
 
I'm looking for some advice on your general approach to the patient with ASPD, particularly with short-term hospitalizations (drug detox, commitment, etc.). How do you form some sort of rapport with someone who views you as an enemy? I find myself passing the buck (e.g. "the judge decided you need to stay here for your safety") to keep the peace, and I don't think that's effective or fair. Thanks!

Admittedly I'm just an intern, but is that a bad approach? My current attending who has really extensive inpatient experience (one of the few in the field it seems like) takes the tactic of basically reminding the patient that you and them are stuck together based on these external factors and that you should focus on making the most of the situation.

And if the judge has decided they have to be there, then it's honest.

As for rapport, I think I have the opposite problem in that I view these patients as the enemy. I have a lot of trouble feeling empathy for antisocial folks -- it's hard to have empathy for someone who can't have empathy for others. I try to remind myself that antisocial people actually experience pain because of this limitation, which has helped somewhat. Still not my favorite patient population, though.
 
The best approach IMHO is evasion.😀
 
Some philosophical Tenets I follow for all patients.

1. Cultivate a state of detached compassion.
Compassion for their situation, detachment from outcome.

2. Never work harder than your patient.
Here's what I can offer. What are you going to do for your situation?

3. Malingerers want something from you.
That puts you in a position of power.

4. Never underestimate the utility of therapeutic alliance.
Forgetting about the oppositional mentality. If you create an "us" focus, then we're always in this together.
 
I approach anti social patients directly from behind, wearing padded slippers, so they don't detect me until the last second.
 
Some philosophical Tenets I follow for all patients.

1. Cultivate a state of detached compassion.
Compassion for their situation, detachment from outcome.

2. Never work harder than your patient.
Here's what I can offer. What are you going to do for your situation?

3. Malingerers want something from you.
That puts you in a position of power.

4. Never underestimate the utility of therapeutic alliance.
Forgetting about the oppositional mentality. If you create an "us" focus, then we're always in this together.
👍👍
 
Don't give a diagnosis such as Bipolar NOS or Psychosis NOS simply because the patient is antisocial. I've seen this happen several times, then guess what? The person commits a serious crime and now they want to use the not guilty by insanity defense because some idiot incorrectly labelled them as severely mentally ill.

I got plenty of such people in the forensic hospital. I spend a lot of time keeping several people off of meds to see if they are truly mentally ill. Unfortunately we got too many idiot doctors diagnosing people with severe mental illness because they're angry over something anyone would be angry over.

As for antisocial people, if they are truly antisocial, that is likely not going to improve. In studies, real antisocial PD usually doesn't get better and there's no approved treatment for it. I emphasize the word "real." I've noticed that clinicians may sometimes diagnose the disorder simply based on a criminal history. That's not ASPD.
 
Last edited:
Agree with Nitemagi and Whopper. Especially about the "true" ASPD.
The real ASPD rarely has a place on an inpatient unit.

Cluster B tactics.

Explain the rules.
Be Clear.
Be Consistent.
Don't let them see you crack.
Work as a team so that everyone is on the same page.

I rarely see true ASPDs be suicidal, they will manipulate the heck out of anyone but they like themselves too much to actually kill themselves (although they may do it by mistake.)
 
At least where I did residency, whenever we had a patient that ever committed a crime, everyone was so eager to diagnose ASPD becuase we didn't get too many people with a wrap sheet.

Most of the attendings didn't have any forensic experience, and some of them didn't really understand the disorder, so when a resident wrote ASPD on the Axis II, you had attendings that didn't question it.

E.g. a woman with a history of MDD had a prior shoplifting arrest. She was found guilty. That in and of itself is not ASPD.

Someone who robs a store and gunpoint, a month later rapes a woman, then few weeks later breaks into someone's home, and on and on and on, and each time has no remorse for what he did, and sees nothing wrong with it, now that's ASPD.

A problem here that I encountered in residency is sometimes you got types like this and the cops drop them off the hospital because it's less paperwork for them. Then the ER doctor doesn't want to deal with them so they write down "psychosis NOS" and dumps the guy off to psychiatry. Then the ER psychiatrist doesn't want to discharge ASPD guy because if that guy commits a crime and harms someone, he doesn't want to be the last doctor on the record who discharged ASPD guy, so the ER psychiatrist furthers the bull$hit diagnosis, and then admits the guy into the psych unit.

Then the inpatient psychiatrist sees the ASPD grabbing a nurse's butt, demanding a sponge bath from the cute nurses, make sexual advances on on patients, and trying to take items away from patients who cant defend themselves. The inpatient psychiatrist doesn't even believe the guy has an Axis I other than substance abuse, but continues to write the Psychosis NOS bull for billing purposes, and discharges the guy.

All of which will reinforce other providers to do the same because there's a trail of several doctors all too willing to put an incorrect diagnosis. It gives the ASPD guy ammo to pursue a not guilty by reason of insanity defense when someone finally actually wants to do the right thing and have the guy go through the judicial system, it skyrockets the cost of healthcare, and it puts patients and staff members at high risk.

Trust me on the last point. I've seen guys like this get into a unit and rape another patient. For better or worse, when this finally happens, staff members finally wake up to the harsh reality on what they should've done in the first place and finally try to have the guy face the music. So far I've encountered a handful of guys who literally raped another patient on the unit. (Thankfully it didn't happen on my unit! I either had them transferred to me after the fact or I had to do an evaluation on them because they were trying to use a not guilty by reason of insanity defense).

I spent a lot of extra hours in November 2010 making sure a guy who had about 10 prior doctors all saying he was psychotic face the music. The guy committed multiple murders, and he had a trail of doctors saying he was schizophrenic and that "Seroquel 100 mg QHS" effectively treated his schizophrenia (yeah right at that dosage there likely wasn't even any D2 blockage), among several other inconsistent notes (e.g. a case worker wrote down he was manic but also wrote in the same note that he was calm and not showing any signs of mania). An M-FAST, SIRS, and plenty of clinical observation easily pointed to him as malingering.
 
Last edited:
Cluster B tactics.

Explain the rules.
Be Clear.
Be Consistent.
Don't let them see you crack.
Work as a team so that everyone is on the same page.

Aren't those also the rules for Clusters A and C?
And for MR?
And all of Axis I?
And for all Medical patients?
And for every customer and every personal relationship
and pet and job and ......?
 
Patient raping another patient? Well, that's just wonderful. One of the reasons why deinstitutionalization was a good move. One of the most basic and fundamental things one can provide people with mental illness is a sense of safety and trust, sense of being care for. I can't even fathom how damaging something like this might be for some hypervigilant patient with PTSD, psychosis, or some other serious mental illness. More reason to take a look at how everybody trying to save their own ass can have detrimental consequences and how insane amount of paperwork and legal matters, though theoretically there to protect patient and doctor, often do neither.
 
Someone who robs a store and gunpoint, a month later rapes a woman, then few weeks later breaks into someone's home, and on and on and on, and each time has no remorse for what he did, and sees nothing wrong with it, now that's ASPD.

A problem here that I encountered in residency is sometimes you got types like this and the cops drop them off the hospital because it's less paperwork for them. Then the ER doctor doesn't want to deal with them so they write down "psychosis NOS" and dumps the guy off to psychiatry. Then the ER psychiatrist doesn't want to discharge ASPD guy because if that guy commits a crime and harms someone, he doesn't want to be the last doctor on the record who discharged ASPD guy, so the ER psychiatrist furthers the bull$hit diagnosis, and then admits the guy into the psych unit.

Then the inpatient psychiatrist sees the ASPD grabbing a nurse's butt, demanding a sponge bath from the cute nurses, make sexual advances on on patients, and trying to take items away from patients who cant defend themselves. The inpatient psychiatrist doesn't even believe the guy has an Axis I other than substance abuse, but continues to write the Psychosis NOS bull for billing purposes, and discharges the guy.

All of which will reinforce other providers to do the same because there's a trail of several doctors all too willing to put an incorrect diagnosis. It gives the ASPD guy ammo to pursue a not guilty by reason of insanity defense when someone finally actually wants to do the right thing and have the guy go through the judicial system, it skyrockets the cost of healthcare, and it puts patients and staff members at high risk.

Trust me on the last point. I've seen guys like this get into a unit and rape another patient. For better or worse, when this finally happens, staff members finally wake up to the harsh reality on what they should've done in the first place and finally try to have the guy face the music. So far I've encountered a handful of guys who literally raped another patient on the unit. (Thankfully it didn't happen on my unit! I either had them transferred to me after the fact or I had to do an evaluation on them because they were trying to use a not guilty by reason of insanity defense).

I spent a lot of extra hours in November 2010 making sure a guy who had about 10 prior doctors all saying he was psychotic face the music. The guy committed multiple murders, and he had a trail of doctors saying he was schizophrenic and that "Seroquel 100 mg QHS" effectively treated his schizophrenia (yeah right at that dosage there likely wasn't even any D2 blockage), among several other inconsistent notes (e.g. a case worker wrote down he was manic but also wrote in the same note that he was calm and not showing any signs of mania). An M-FAST, SIRS, and plenty of clinical observation easily pointed to him as malingering.

So now you're reminding me to be super careful with documentation for these types. I actually normally try to be because they inspire such negative feelings in me which then get somehow reflected in my discharge summary. Your post in and of itself made me angry. Jeez.
 
So "damage control" might not be such a bad strategy after all....

The case that got me thinking about this also got me wondering whether many people get the diagnosis of ASPD when in reality the majority of their antisocial behavior results from substance dependence.
 
So "damage control" might not be such a bad strategy after all....

The case that got me thinking about this also got me wondering whether many people get the diagnosis of ASPD when in reality the majority of their antisocial behavior results from substance dependence.

Absolutely.
Anything which makes people feel miserable is likely to make them irritable, demanding, bullying, etc. Especially if it tends to get undertreated. So it could be pain, nausea, PTSD, anxiety, etc. Depression alone can make people difficult to live with. Diagnosis of personality disorders should be made very cautiously until you feel sure you have properly treated axis I and axis III disorders - or have a good long history with the patient to draw from.
 
So "damage control" might not be such a bad strategy after all....

The case that got me thinking about this also got me wondering whether many people get the diagnosis of ASPD when in reality the majority of their antisocial behavior results from substance dependence.

Working with a lot of long-term addicted, you come to realize that there is a "Personality Disorder secondary to Substance Dependence" that doesn't fit neatly into any DSM categorization--these guys (and gals) have been using since early adolescence, never developed any adult coping strategies other than getting drunk or high, and likely had sub-par childhood emotional development as well, if their parents were users. Along the way they've picked up multiple physical and social maladies associated with their using--and now they've got to figure out how to be a responsible adult AND cope soberly! It's no wonder they do so many things that tick us off...
 
Situations like this bring up the tough question of bringing in the police if an antisocial person breaks the law on an inpatient unit.

In cases like the above, sometimes the police don't want to respond. The police, wanting to avoid paperwork, and thinking the person is in a safe environment, want to avoid these things.

But in cases like this, antisocial people need to be held accountable for their actions. What do you do then if the police refuse to show up? I've seen that happen. Are you violating privacy? That's not been definitely answered. I've even seen a forensic psychiatrist (that's a PD and that I have little respect for) argue in court (after he was well paid) that since the alleged crime occurred "in house" it really should be handled by a hospital.....and the law shouldn't have any involvement. In that case, the attacker fit the above description, an ASPD patient who truly had no severe mental illness, and whose only real Axis I dx was substance abuse. In his case, he brutally attacked a psychiatrist who suffered permanent neurological damage.

A committee at AAPL including a former AAPL president did mention in a conference that it was their opinion that patients that commit crimes on an inpatient unit need to have the law involved. If the person's mental illness (I'm talking about a "real" one, not ASPD) did contribute to the crime, it shouldn't be medical staff determining if the person should face punishment, but the judicial system.

This phenomenon is not something you're going to see in all scenarios. You are more likely to see it in an urban setting that services poor and high crime areas.

Another similar phenomenon is what do you do if you're working on a forensic unit (like I am) and you got someone found not guilty by reason of insanity for a serious crime, and the person is not truly mentally ill? I've had that happen twice. In these cases, I took the person off of medications, and after several months of observation, and the person still did not show any symptoms, you're supposed to tell the Court. I wrote in my opinion the person was not mentally ill. The Court will likely ask for a second opinion, but then after that, if the second opinion agrees, the Court (now looking stupid because it's likely the same judge who found them not guilty by reason of insanity) will have to let them go.

(Yes, I did thoroughly review the cases including very lazily done reports saying the person at the time of the crime was mentally ill to the degree where they could not tell the difference between right and wrong, and in each case no one did a urine drug screen, the person had a long history of drug abuse, and had a trail of several idiot doctors saying the person was mentally ill).

It's already been established in Foucha v. Louisiana that if someone was found not guilty by reason of insanity but they are not truly mentally ill, then they are supposed to be released, even if you think the person is still dangerous. It is my opinion that if someone malingered to be found mentally ill and successfully used a not guilty by reason of insanity defense, then the Court yes must let them go for their crime, but should then charge the person with perjury. I, however, have yet never seen this happen, and it's considered inappropriate for me to call up the Judge and say "Your Honor, since you can't nail this guy via method 1, use method 2, perjury!"

In the cases I've had so far, the first guy was still held because he is in the hospital for multiple crimes. I only got him off the hook for one (and trust me, my goal was not to get him out, it was to pursue the truth...the truth that the guy is not mentally ill, shouldn't have been hospitalized in the first place, and I will not medicate someone because 10 previous doctors were wrong).

In the other case, the guy is still in the hospital but will likely be released because the other doctor who reviewed the case agreed with me. The person in that case has been off of meds for several months and the only problematic behavior we see is all due to ASPD. I even wrote in my report that the guy will likely commit a crime again, even possibly harm someone, but I will not say a person is mentally ill if I don't believe they are.

And since I'm all ticked off at the moment, I'll just OT add that I had a suicidal patient in my outpatient office a few days ago who had panic disorder and depression, I had her hospitalized, and the inpatient doctor took her off of all her meds, (she said they worked, she told me she was suicidal because of an severe incident at work) put her on lithium, diagnosed her with bipolar disorder even though she had no complaints that fit a DSM dx of the disorder, and discharged her. His report mentions no DSM criteria for bipolar disorder.

And unfortunately I see a lot of doctors practice the way the above doctor does.
 
Situations like this bring up the tough question of bringing in the police if an antisocial person breaks the law on an inpatient unit.

In CA, state regs say you Must report any assault against hospital staff. This pretty well relieves the confidentiality issue. And, of course, the staff member can (and probably should) make their own report to police alleging assault/battery. Even if it doesn't get prosecuted, the charges should be filed so that any pattern can be identified by the prosecutors. When police refuse to write up a report, get the names and badge numbers, and go directly to the DA office to report the assault.

In the larger picture, one probably can't wear both hats, physician and prosecutor. I just don't think we can make it our job to be sure wrong-doers are punished. If one is feeling so strongly that he needs to be part of the prosecution that he can no longer put his whole heart and mind into being the physician, then it may be time to hang up the stethoscope and step out of clinical care to either go to law school or become an expert witness for the prosecution.
 
Deleted...fingers too fast for brain.
 
So "damage control" might not be such a bad strategy after all....

The case that got me thinking about this also got me wondering whether many people get the diagnosis of ASPD when in reality the majority of their antisocial behavior results from substance dependence.

How long would someone need to be off drugs before you could diagnose them with ASPD...or other disorders? I've read up to 6 months.

Whopper, I like your cases. Plenty of books on what to do. Why don't you write one on what not to do?👍
 
I just don't think we can make it our job to be sure wrong-doers are punished.

Agree. It is our job, however, to make sure the person gets an accurate diagnosis and appropriate treatment. That treatment may be writing the person is not mentally ill and the medical system is not appropriate to keep the person off the street even if they are dangerous.

In cases where a patient does do acts that are dangerous, and in the opinion of the treatment team, not due to severe mental illness (and again I'm not calling ASPD severe mental illness), ideally a non-treating evaluator needs to go over this and document what happened. If the prosecution wants the opinion of someone who evaluated the case who is not tied by the doctor-patient relationship, there'll be an evaluation done by someone who is not tied.

In the hospital I work at, the forensic director, is trying to push hospital policies that will make patients accountable for illegal behavior, and the first step after detection of the activity is having another doctor who is not treating the patient evaluate the incident.

There is a lot of confusion as to what should be done because doctors aren't supposed to be in a position where they are supposed to get their patients prosecuted. Unfortunately this is not something that has been clearly defined.

In my opinion, in the coming years, this grey area will be better defined because mental illness and people trying to use it as a defense is hitting the media more and more. I've noticed the media tries to hype up cases like this because it generates ratings. This will at least increase public awareness.

Whopper, I like your cases. Plenty of books on what to do. Why don't you write one on what not to do?
If I do go the University route, I was thinking of doing a line of research on things I've noticed doctors wish someone would do but hardly anyone does it.

E.g. the percentage of psychiatric consults people get that are "real" and not a result of dumping, furthering the research on patients who are conditionally suicidal (If you don't give me a sponge bath from the cute nurse I'll kill myself!"), and having actors go into an office, mention no symptoms of a disorder, and see how many idiot doctors will diagnose the person and give them a medication.

How long would someone need to be off drugs before you could diagnose them with ASPD...or other disorders? I've read up to 6 months.
Depends. I've seen some sources say a year if there were symptoms that could have been drug-induced, but that duration is not based on any specific empirical data I'm aware of.
 
Last edited:
Another similar phenomenon is what do you do if you're working on a forensic unit (like I am) and you got someone found not guilty by reason of insanity for a serious crime, and the person is not truly mentally ill? I've had that happen twice. In these cases, I took the person off of medications, and after several months of observation, and the person still did not show any symptoms, you're supposed to tell the Court.
Hi,
I have a question similar to the one above. How long would would a patient have be off medications and symptom-free to determine that they did not have schizophrenia? 4 months? 6 months? 😕
 
Schizophrenia is a chronic condition that unlike bipolar disorder, should not have extended periods on the order of weeks to months where the person will not exhibit DSM criteria of the disorder.

A person could be symptom free for over a year while in-between manic/depressive episodes in bipolar disorder.

That said, a schizophrenic person could appear to be symptom-free if they have an intact concentration and memory, and have enough insight to know what the examiner is looking for. Schizophrenics of this type could be of the chronic paranoid type. In that type of the disorder, the person's concentration and memory are intact, and they could know that the examiner is looking for signs and symptoms of psychosis and merely hide them, knowing that if they talk about their delusions, the doctor may keep them hospitalized longer.

I wouldn't expect a schizophrenic to be symptom free for an extended period of over a few days unless the examiner wasn't looking deep enough, or the person had an intact memory/concentration with a decent insight.

Unfortunately, in long-term facilities, I've seen very psychotic patients be labelled as "fine" because so long as the patient wasn't punching people and had decent ADLs, the doctor decided to not do much else in detecting their psychosis.
 
Thanks. How do you determine that the chronic paranoid types with good insight and concentration are hiding their symptoms? What kind of questions would you ask?
 
From here I'd recommend you read up on it on your own because anything I'd say about it would merely be a repeat of what's already in the textbooks. The DSM IV, Webmd, or a psychiatric textbook could help.
 
From here I'd recommend you read up on it on your own because anything I'd say about it would merely be a repeat of what's already in the textbooks. The DSM IV, Webmd, or a psychiatric textbook could help.

Perhaps a more specific reading suggestion? "The DSM IV" or "a psychiatric textbook" is a tall order 😉
 
In the types I mentioned, they are not malingering. They are not exaggerating or feigning symptoms. They are trying to minimize them. Unfortunately, even for a good psychiatrist, if a person maintains good behavior, knows what to say, and denies all symptoms, it's going to be hard for the psychiatrist to detect their psychosis.

As I mentioned, I've seen several psychiatrists in long-term facilities allow patients fly-under-the-radar so long as they weren't punching people and performing their ADLs. A patient that smears feces or assaults someone just raises too many red flags, but as we should all know, that isn't a litmus test as to whether or not someone has psychosis.

People who are psychotic but trying to minimize their paranoia often slip and give it away, even if they are trying to hide it for discharge. E.g. the person is hypervigilant (always scanning the environment), have an exaggerated startle response, they may slip and mention the "black helicopters." Some of these people, however, do cover up well. In situations like this, the treatment team, if they suspect the person is minimizing, actually has to look for it. If the team merely goes through the same day-to-day stuff, they're going to miss it.

In fact if the the patient can cover it up well, that's actually an argument that they may be dischargeable because they can at least exert enough will to control their symptoms. Remember, in most states, the legal critera to keep someone against their will due to psychiatric reasons is the person must be a danger to themself or others within the immediate future due to a mental illness (Antisocial PD is not a mental illness that meets the criteria for commitment in most states). It's hard to argue the person is such if they can hide their symptoms for extended periods of time. We can't keep people simply becausen the person is not 100% symptom-free.

Psychological testing could help detect continuing psychosis. Extended observation could also help. Another clue is repeated hospitalizations where they always say they are fine before discharge, but then resume psychotic behavior once released into the community despite compliance with medications (that can be verified e.g. a depot antipsychotic). Another clue is if the person is under stress, they often slip-up. E.g. I had a guy that was roomed up with one of the worst patients in the hospital, and then the guy started showing bad paranoia that he was otherwise able to hide because he spent most of his free time in his room.
 
Last edited:
Observation is a good way to ferret out defensiveness / minimalization of symptoms, as well as feigning symptoms. Those that're faking often can't fake 24 hours a day, in either direction. This is an argument in favor of hospitalizations of even potential malingerers - to get data to then support their actual diagnosis, particularly if little collateral/historical records are available.
 
Top