Are acceptances for minorities really that skewed?

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buymecookies

buymecookies

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I am a Nigerian American female. While feeling down about my GPA and overall stats and thinking about how crappy they seem compared to everyone else's, I found some charts on a thread on here that showed an extremely biased favor for black people. As in, a black person with a 30 MCAT and a 3.5 GPA being accepted over an Asian or Caucasian with the same stats.

Is that a reflection of reality? Do adcoms favor diversity that much? I don't want to get my hopes up if that graph isn't entirely accurate >_>
 
Mr Interesting said:
Why? Why would you do this? If you joined this site in October 2013 then you have been around long enough to know how this is going to turn out.
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What's going to happen? Lmao I haven't been very active on here thus far so I actually don't know how this will turn out u_u
 
Rather than thinking about "this African American applicant will have this much of a higher chance of getting in than an Asian of equal stats", think of it like "The diversity I bring is very valuable to the field of medicine and admissions committees recognize that".
 
buymecookies said:
I am a Nigerian American female. While feeling down about my GPA and overall stats and thinking about how crappy they seem compared to everyone else's, I found some charts on a thread on here that showed an extremely biased favor for black people. As in, a black person with a 30 MCAT and a 3.5 GPA being accepted over an Asian or Caucasian with the same stats.

Is that a reflection of reality? Do adcoms favor diversity that much? I don't want to get my hopes up if that graph isn't entirely accurate >_>
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Yes and Yes. Congrats. Be humble and please don't throw it in other people's faces (not that you would).
 
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They are and they aren't. I am half Puerto Rican, so I looked at the 2012 data for Puerto Rican matriculants recently. The graph stated that the average MCAT score for Puerto Rican matriculants was a 24.9, which is obviously significantly lower than the overall average. However, when you look at the number of actual Puerto Rican matriculants compared to, say, Asian or Caucasian matriculants, the difference is ginormous. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it was something like 331 Puerto Rican matriculants and 10,0000 Caucasian. The difference is because there just aren't that many Puerto Ricans applying to begin with. So are Puerto Ricans (and other minorities) able to get in with lower stats on average? Seems that way. But are those matriculants taking up tons of seats that otherwise would have gone to more qualified non-URMs? Not really.
 
I've always found these charts interesting (you might want to check out Figures 7 and 8). The numbers really do show the difference.

Regardless of how people describe it, being an minority applicant does give you a different perspective than the majority of applicants. I mean, most of the EC's premeds do that adcoms find worth-while are valued because they grant us fresh and unique perspectives.
 
buymecookies said:
What's going to happen? Lmao I haven't been very active on here thus far so I actually don't know how this will turn out u_u
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1. A bitter ORM student will post how unfair it is then claim that all minorities are really rich but abuse welfare and "the system."

2. A minority poster will post a comment schooling the ORM poster about what the true goal of schools recruiting more minorities really is. If necessary the minority poster will also give a free history lesson and provide data specifically from the AAMC on this topic which will go purposely unnoticed by the ORM poster.

3. The ORM student will post a statement that starts with, "I have black friends but..." then post one of the most racist and ignorant things you have ever heard in your life.

4. The minority poster will then laugh and ignore the poster

5.The ORM student will then post another aggressively pathetic comment explaining how unfair it is that a minority person took their seat in med school without ever considering A) They were never promised a seat at any med school to begin with B)another ORM student with lower stats then them took their seat.

When you skim really fast it basically looks like this:

thatssotrue.com_797_1329515214.gif







tumblr_mtydmq76D31snxyjao1_400.gif
....






thatssotrue.com_1255_1329759564.gif
 
deanthedream17 said:
Yes they really are. Regardless, of what liberals would like you to believe. Case and point, I was talking to a black girl in my class the other day and I noticed medical school apparel she was wearing of a school I am on a waitlist for. I asked if she will be attending and she said no, but she was accepted. I said "oh, well where are you going" and she proceeded to name a few top and mid tier schools she had been accepted to, but is struggling to decide between. I said wow you must really have outstanding grades and MCATs. Turns out, they were below mine and I can't get into one school.
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Why would she wear med school apparel from a school she is not attending? :thinking:
 
Remember, Black applicants have the lowest acceptance rate. There is very little wiggle room for "lower stats". You need at least the average to be considered (3.6 and 32) and if you have only the average you need to have a strong and compelling story because that won't count. Most Black applicants I know didn't get in this year. Medical school is medical school so they need to be able to ensure you will pass through. Schools need diversity but just being Black won't cut it. I promise you.
 
Remember, Black applicants have the lowest acceptance rate. There is very little wiggle room for "lower stats". You need at least the average to be considered (3.6 and 32) and if you have only the average you need to have a strong and compelling story because that won't count. Most Black applicants I know didn't get in this year. Medical school is medical school so they need to be able to ensure you will pass through. Schools need diversity but just being Black won't cut it. I promise you.
 
buymecookies said:
I am a Nigerian American female. While feeling down about my GPA and overall stats and thinking about how crappy they seem compared to everyone else's, I found some charts on a thread on here that showed an extremely biased favor for black people. As in, a black person with a 30 MCAT and a 3.5 GPA being accepted over an Asian or Caucasian with the same stats.

Is that a reflection of reality? Do adcoms favor diversity that much? I don't want to get my hopes up if that graph isn't entirely accurate >_>
Click to expand...



My $0.02...Being African American is almost always an advantage and even more so as an URM. The stats say that there is an inclination for more med schools to accept AA's than other races, but the truth is that it ultimately depends on the school and your application. Yeah, you can have a 3.5 and a 30 but if your app is lacking in other areas, then it should be no surprise as to why those select AA's weren't selected. It comes down to two factors: what's that one thing that distinguishes you from the other applicants that will be of an asset to the school and two, whether or not you have the tangibles and intangibles to get through a rigorous MD program. Don't be fooled, out of 6000 applicants, don't be surprised if at least 100 plus are AA's so being AA doesn't automatically guarantee anything, it just puts you in a better position compared to your 'average joe' applicant.
 
buymecookies said:
I am a Nigerian American female. While feeling down about my GPA and overall stats and thinking about how crappy they seem compared to everyone else's, I found some charts on a thread on here that showed an extremely biased favor for black people. As in, a black person with a 30 MCAT and a 3.5 GPA being accepted over an Asian or Caucasian with the same stats.

Is that a reflection of reality? Do adcoms favor diversity that much? I don't want to get my hopes up if that graph isn't entirely accurate >_>
Click to expand...

It's absolutely a reflection of reality...those charts are actual stats. Don't cry over your stats...they show you have a 90% chance of getting an MD school if you apply like most people do and interview like a reasonably personable person. 90% is amazing...and you have even better odds at DO. Enjoy it and take your seat in med school and don't look back or regret it.

Now if you are asking if everyone gets that same treatment, no, they don't. With my pigmentation and your stats, I'd have less than a 50% chance of getting an MD spot. I don't like the system and you can decide whether you like or not based on your own opinions, but it's there. The justification given is that minority doctors are often more willing to work in areas with minority patients that aren't near enough doctors. There is also some evidence that minority patients prefer doctors who look like them and simply put, there aren't a lot of black doctors. The last of the big three reasons I see a lot is that sociologically a black student in america is more likely to grow up in a bad school district and household with less money and that med school admissions can help even the playing field a bit with extra consideration for black applicants. But that's a policy discussion for another place and not something you will change as an applicant( even if you wanted to, you may not). If you want to change it, you can push for change once you are a doctor. For now, just be a successful applicant. Every single one of us would check any box we could to increase our odds rights now. I will repeat, and I mean this sincerely...Enjoy it and take your seat in med school and don't look back or regret it.
 
30 and 3.5 will probably get you into a really good mid-tier school assuming decent EC's. Congrats.
 
Espadaleader said:
Remember, Black applicants have the lowest acceptance rate. There is very little wiggle room for "lower stats". You need at least the average to be considered (3.6 and 32) and if you have only the average you need to have a strong and compelling story because that won't count. Most Black applicants I know didn't get in this year. Medical school is medical school so they need to be able to ensure you will pass through. Schools need diversity but just being Black won't cut it. I promise you.
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They have the lowest acceptance rate because they have the lowest MCAT/GPA. ~90% of Black applicants don't score above a 30 on the MCAT. When you compare overall acceptance rates you are comparing a population (blacks) that has a large proportion of their population with sub-par numbers to a population (whites/asians) that doesn't have as many low numbered applicants. However, if you compare applicants who have the same MCAT/GPA you will see that the Black demographic has the highest acceptance rate.

TL;DR: Blacks have a lower acceptance rate because they have lower numbers on average than every other demographic. But compare applicants with same GPA/MCAT and Blacks will have the highest acceptance rate.

Not looking to get into an argument. Just pointing out that your "Black applicants have the lowest acceptance rate" is not an argument to say that Blacks applicants aren't heavily favored.

Source: https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf


To the OP: Yes being Nigerian American with a 30 and 3.5 will make you very competetive compared to other demographics. African American applicants with stats similar to yours have a 93.2% chance of acceptance whereas if you were Asian you would have a 48% chance acceptance.

Source:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf
 
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Asians are so overrepresented in medicine, even the HBCU medical schools Howard, Morehouse, Meharry are like 25-30% Asian. As soon as an Asian child is born their parents start saving for their med school tuition.
 
MangoPlant said:
TL;DR: Blacks have a lower acceptance rate because they have lower numbers on average than every other demographic. But compare applicants with same GPA/MCAT and Blacks will have the highest acceptance rate.

Not looking to get into an argument. Just pointing out that your "Black applicants have the lowest acceptance rate" is not an argument to say that Blacks applicants aren't heavily favored.
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Someone knows how to finesse that data, good work, sir.
 
deanthedream17 said:
Yes they really are. Regardless, of what liberals would like you to believe. Case and point, I was talking to a black girl in my class the other day and I noticed medical school apparel she was wearing of a school I am on a waitlist for. I asked if she will be attending and she said no, but she was accepted. I said "oh, well where are you going" and she proceeded to name a few top and mid tier schools she had been accepted to, but is struggling to decide between. I said wow you must really have outstanding grades and MCATs. Turns out, they were below mine and I can't get into one school.
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I'm sorry. 🙁
 
EMDO2018 said:
Asians are so overrepresented in medicine, even the HBCU medical schools Howard, Morehouse, Meharry are like 25-30% Asian. As soon as an Asian child is born their parents start saving for their med school tuition.
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Asians are 5% of HBCUs
 
This thread makes raises an interesting question, IMO.

When will ethnicity stop being considered as an admissions factor for medical school?

This week, the Supreme Court (big one) voted in favor of upholding a ban on ethnicity-based preferences for admissions (affirmative action). This decision doesn't just affect Michigan, either. This legitimizes affirmative action bans in 10+ other states, too.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...me-court-affirmative-action-michigan/4481923/

Interestingly, Asians in California last month "stopped California Democrats, who hold a legislative supermajority, from reinstating racial preferences."

I can only speak for myself, here, but admitting people to medical school with inferior abilities will inevitably interfere with my future patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems. What's in my future patient's best interest isn't care by providers that didn't make the cut, educationally.

IMO, medicine is perhaps the most unique career in that merit should > anything else based on the fact that we'll be responsible for other people's lives. Race has nothing to do with it.
 
MDforMee said:
I can only speak for myself, here, but admitting people to medical school with inferior abilities will inevitably interfere with my future patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems. What's in my future patient's best interest isn't care by providers that didn't make the cut, educationally.
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Uh, no. Just...no.
 
DermViser said:
Uh, no. Just...no.
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Explain, then, how the hippocratic oath is supported by placing providers with inferior grades and test scores in charge of patient's care?

This is a logical fallacy if the admissions system is based on these same grades, test scores, and personal characteristics (excluding ethnicity).
 
DermViser said:
Uh, no. Just...no.
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there were some studies done on the correlation of gpa/mcat to eventual step1 or comlex scores and graduation rates......I saw them posted in one of the other discussions about this topic and like dermvisor seems to be saying, they weren't all strong correlations to success in med school although I seem to remember that the bio section of mcat was a strong correlation
 
MDforMee said:
Explain, then, how the hippocratic oath is supported by providers with poor grades and test scores?
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Your patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems is not predicated on you as the provider. Alot is dependent on how much they take care of themselves. Much of people's medical problems are degenerative in nature. Besides certain specialties, you won't be curing anything. You will be medically managing chronic problems, which stay with that patient forever.
 
sb247 said:
there were some studies done on the correlation of gpa/mcat to eventual step1 or comlex scores and graduation rates......I saw them posted in one of the other discussions about this topic and like dermvisor seems to be saying, they weren't all strong correlations to success in med school although I seem to remember that the bio section of mcat was a strong correlation
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Yes, MCAT score has a correlation with the USMLE Step 1. Medical school is much more than just that.
 
DermViser said:
Your patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems is not predicated on you as the provider. Alot is dependent on how much they take care of themselves. Much of people's medical problems are degenerative in nature. Besides certain specialties, you won't be curing anything. You will be medically managing chronic problems, which stay with that patient forever.
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this is a good point, no doctor could be good enough to cure my overweight diabetic grandpa who loved ice cream......he simply did not care about living longer as much as he did about his traditional bowl of ice cream after every meal
 
DermViser said:
Your patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems is not predicated on you as the provider. Alot is dependent on how much they take care of themselves. Much of people's medical problems are degenerative in nature. Besides certain specialties, you won't be curing anything. You will be medically managing chronic problems, which stay with that patient forever.
Click to expand...

I could care less what color you are in the hospital. If you're incapable of managing complex illnesses, you don't belong there.
 
MDforMee said:
Explain, then, how the hippocratic oath is supported by placing providers with inferior grades and test scores in charge of patient's care?

This is a logical fallacy if the admissions system is based on these same grades, test scores, and personal characteristics (excluding ethnicity).
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1. You don't know what a logical fallacy is.
2. What does this have to do with the hippocratic oath.
3. Just like any other academic metric, grades and test scores scale logarithmically with their utility. Saying someone is less qualified to be a physician because of grades and test scores is ridiculous. If you feel this way stop going to any doctor accepted in the 80s and early 00s because they had much easier than us. The metric is so high because of competition not because there is some ghost authority saying that is what you need to be a doctor hurrdurr.
4. When are you even applying?

EMDO2018 said:
Take one look at the MSAR, and anyone can see this isn't true.
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http://www.gse.upenn.edu/pdf/cmsi/Changing_Face_HBCUs.pdf
 
Also as the adcoms on here have pointed out in the past, pretty much anyone with a 25 MCAT/3.5gpa can do the work in medical school. The problem is how many people applying who meet and exceed that bare minimum. How do you chose who gets a spot?
 
MDforMee said:
I could care less what color you are in the hospital. If you're incapable of managing complex illnesses, you don't belong there.
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Newsflash genius. Your MCAT score and undergraduate GPA is not indicative of your ability to manage complex illnesses. Obviously hospitals disagree with you as they don't just hire physicians, but PAs and NPs to manage patients.
 
MDforMee said:
I could care less what color you are in the hospital. If you're incapable of managing complex illnesses, you don't belong there.
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I think the point you might be missing is that if you pass your exams... and graduate...and get through residency...and pass boards....you are capable of whatever your specialty is, regardless of your undergrad gpa/mcat

the drive for higher gpa/mcat is a supply and demand issue with regard to seats at school, not capability
 
geneexpression said:
They are and they aren't. I am half Puerto Rican, so I looked at the 2012 data for Puerto Rican matriculants recently. The graph stated that the average MCAT score for Puerto Rican matriculants was a 24.9, which is obviously significantly lower than the overall average. However, when you look at the number of actual Puerto Rican matriculants compared to, say, Asian or Caucasian matriculants, the difference is ginormous. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it was something like 331 Puerto Rican matriculants and 10,0000 Caucasian. The difference is because there just aren't that many Puerto Ricans applying to begin with. So are Puerto Ricans (and other minorities) able to get in with lower stats on average? Seems that way. But are those matriculants taking up tons of seats that otherwise would have gone to more qualified non-URMs? Not really.
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Puerto Rico also has its own schools that take almost entirely Puerto Ricans, so that's probably skewing the numbers s bit. On the mainland, it is quite likely that stats for accepted students are higher.
 
EMDO2018 said:
As soon as an Asian child is born their parents start saving for their med school tuition.
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Ignorant and racist
Many people know I'm very against URM conscious admissions but I would never stoop so low as to apply stereotypes to certain demographics because that has no place in a policy-only discussion. And it's racist and embarrassing
 
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MDforMee said:
Explain, then, how the hippocratic oath is supported by placing providers with inferior grades and test scores in charge of patient's care?

This is a logical fallacy if the admissions system is based on these same grades, test scores, and personal characteristics (excluding ethnicity).
Click to expand...

Guess what, even admissions committees admit that above a certain threshold MCAT/GPA, any person can graduate from medical school and enter residency. If you believe that the higher your MCAT score/GPA the better you will be for your patients, you are thoroughly delusional. No admissions committee has ever made that claim.
 
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Are any of you even aware of how much responsibility you have as a doctor?
 
sb247 said:
also...shoutout to the brilliance of three simultaneous-but-exactly-the-same comments from @touchpause13 , @DermViser and myself
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The vapors wafting thru Pre-Allopathic must be stronger than any mj joint, when premeds seem to believe that MCAT score and undergraduate GPA (even science GPA) is somehow indicative of how good of a doctor you'll be, or how well you can take care of patients.
 
MDforMee said:
Are any of you even aware of how much responsibility you have as a doctor?
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Yes, I am quite aware of how much responsibility I have as a doctor, as I've graduated from medical school and am currently a resident. So yes, I'm pretty sure I have a good idea, by now. But please keep lecturing to me about how much certain objective metrics demonstrate clairvoyance on clinical ability.
 
DermViser said:
Yes, I am quite aware of how much responsibility I have as a doctor, as I've graduated from medical school and am currently a resident. So yes, I'm pretty sure I have a good idea, by now.
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*searches internet for approriate "burn" meme
 
MDforMee said:
Are any of you even aware of how much responsibility you have as a doctor?
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Are you even aware of....anything?

Responses from:

@touchpause13 - DO student
@DermViser - derm resident
@madjack - ms0 with years of work experience in clinical fields.

We've had this "explain it to me like im five" discussion about why medical admissions is the way it is before @MDforMee
 
I'm happy to call it how I see it for you guys all day long... and it's still early.
 
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