Are all Colleges Equal?

[halekulani]

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all colleges are not equal

sure prestige will give you an edge

but the school you come from will not be the make or break factor for an acceptance/rejection

 

[Narmerguy]

OP, don't expect people on SDN to sympathize with you. Everyone wants to believe that they either have it worse than everyone else or everyone else has it the same. I don't attend a super tough school but I can at least acknowledge that the work the students there have to deal with is harder than mine. Honestly, I wouldn't dream of competing against an entire school filled half with valedictorians and other kind of academic all stars.

I actually usually recommend that people not attend Ivy League schools for this reason. The benefits (especially if you're going for medicine) aren't worth it. GL OP.

 

[NNukibw77]

I actually usually recommend that people not attend Ivy League schools for this reason. The benefits (especially if you're going for medicine) aren't worth it. GL OP.

I disagree. The Ivy League benefits extend outside of the classroom. If you're smart enough to get in, go. It's a once in a life time opportunity.

 

[dokein]

I wanted to ask if all colleges have the same difficulty level in terms of undergrad curriculum. I go to a private school and am ending the semester with about a 3.5 or so but my friends who went to our state flagships (University of Texas and Texas A&M) are getting 4.0s. So I am wondering if all colleges are equal in their difficulty?

Top colleges DO have smarter (not just harder working) student bodies at a population level, but high school is so ridiculously easy that there is a large amount of overlap between colleges.

Ivy schools tend have give a lot of As, whereas e.g. Cal students have to contend with being in a smart class and having everything curved to a B-/C+ average. They also tend to have a lot of premed counseling whereas UCLA students get a piece of paper with medical school class requirements at the beginning of their first year and no further advice.

Bottom line though, is if you're struggling to get a 3.5 anywhere you're unfortunately just not as smart as you thought. Sorry. But medical schools do take into some consideration where you attend school, and you don't have to be a genius to be a doctor, so the only thing to do is just try as best you can and go from there.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

I went to a private school for undergrad and am now at a state school for post-bac. It's hard for me to judge the differences in difficulty because I was a social sciences major previously, and now am taking only science courses. So it's kind of apples and oranges. But there are plenty of very smart, dedicated people at the state school and there were plenty of people who slacked off and drank every day at the private school, which is higher ranked and all (as if that matters). I agree with whoever said that the difficulty of the class depends on the professor. I had ridiculously easy professors at the private school, as well as some very difficult ones. My chem professor at the state school is one of the hardest professors I've ever had!

I think there is a difference in grading, though. Although there are plenty of very smart people at the state school, since there are so many more people overall I do feel like I am benefited a lot by the curve, because there are so many people in these large lecture classes that skip class to get stoned or go skiing. At the private school, there was a smaller proportion of people who slacked off, although they definitely did exist. So you were being compared to a greater percentage of people who cared.

 

[randombetch]

Perhaps you should have gone to Harvard instead of Yale. Apparently, most people graduate from Harvard with honors. And I doubt that Harvard students are that much smarter than Yale students. I assume that Harvard has grade inflation.

Yale's average GPA (3.51) is higher than Harvard's (3.45). Both of which are significantly higher than Princeton's (3.28).

www.gradeinflation.com

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

Top colleges DO have smarter (not just harder working) student bodies at a population level, but high school is so ridiculously easy that there is a large amount of overlap between colleges.

Ivy schools tend have give a lot of As, whereas e.g. Cal students have to contend with being in a smart class and having everything curved to a B-/C+ average. They also tend to have a lot of premed counseling whereas UCLA students get a piece of paper with medical school class requirements at the beginning of their first year and no further advice.

Bottom line though, is if you're struggling to get a 3.5 anywhere you're unfortunately just not as smart as you thought. Sorry. But medical schools do take into some consideration where you attend school, and you don't have to be a genius to be a doctor, so the only thing to do is just try as best you can and go from there.

There are a lot of schools outside of the Ivy Schools that tend to give a lot of As. In some cases I know firsthand that it is very difficult to get an A at some of the Ivy institutions as a pre-med as you have to compete with some of the best and brightest from around the country and the world (smart international students, who come in droves to prestigious and top ranked institutions) for spots on curves exactly as you mentioned (B-/C+) average. I would agree with you though that at some more prestigious institutions and top schools there is a strong network and resources, opportunities and the like that helps them keep their admissions numbers to medical school high. But this can also be said of some non-Ivy top schools.

 

[dokein]

There are a lot of schools outside of the Ivy Schools that tend to give a lot of As. In some cases I know firsthand that it is very difficult to get an A at some of the Ivy institutions as a pre-med as you have to compete with some of the best and brightest from around the country and the world (smart international students, who come in droves to prestigious and top ranked institutions) for spots on curves exactly as you mentioned (B-/C+) average. I would agree with you though that at some more prestigious institutions and top schools there is a strong network and resources, opportunities and the like that helps them keep their admissions numbers to medical school high. But this can also be said of some non-Ivy top schools.

Sorry, I didn't mean that post as in "Cal and UCLA are harder than Ivy-league", or that "Ivy-league aren't harder than a lot of schools". It was really only to say, Ivy leagues aren't the ONLY hard schools and if you really struggle to get a 3.5 then you're just not as awesome as you thought.

At the schools I've interviewed at 90% of the candidates are from some Ivy league or UCLA/Cal/UM or something of that caliber, so your application isn't really compared all too often to someone who has it super easy.

 

[artx2008]

It is not elitism, it is being bitter (and jealous).

Why don't you transfer to UT and get a 4.0 there. It is so easy; even a caveman can do it!

 

[Esio Trot]

I feel like we've seen a lot of these ivy/private/state school threads lately, (I lurk much more than I post) and most seem to be a cry for reassurance that the OP and the rest of us will make it to the end of this process. Why do we choose to worry about our undergrad institution? It is a decision that we have already made, for better or for worse. When we were told to pick a college, we were in high school, and many of us - myself included - did not originally intend to pursue a career in medicine. I certainly wasn't checking grade distributions as I looked for undergraduate schools because I was concerned about being the most competitive med applicant.

The point I'm trying to make here is that no one wins from discussing the "prestige" debate. If you are at a less prestigious school, you're left feeling anxious about your school's reputation hurting you in the admissions process. If you're at a more prestigious school, you're left wondering if your GPA would be higher at your state university. Furthermore, the school you go to isn't something you can change. You can study for the MCAT, add EC's and shadowing, and work for a high GPA, but you can't change your undergrad institution without serious consequences (personal, financial, emotional, etc.). Let's all agree that there are advantages and disadvantages to every single accredited secondary institution; furthermore, let's agree to stop debating this issue as a way to feed our collective neuroticism.

Relax, everyone! 😀

 

[zinciest]

I find it offensive that people are suggesting that Yale is a rich kid school because it absolutely is not. Especially considering if your parents make about 150K, you pay 10% of less of your parents income.

The financial aid here is very generous and open to many students. My parents make about 110K and thanks to the generosity of the wealthy donors I only pay about 1K a year to attend.

Only on this site can people act as if a family income of 150K or 110K is not very well off.

 

[slowbutsteady]

I go to Yale so I am sure people have heard of it. It is just that I got my first semester grades (3.45 GPA, 3.38 science GPA) and during winter break I had to listen to people talking about how they were getting 4.0s and it was annoying. I took quite a bit of pre-med course: calculus, bio, chemistry, and chemistry lab.

The sad thing is that I was above the curve in almost every single class, so that means half the students are doing worse. So I am thinking, how can people get 4.0s if the work they do is comparable to the work we are doing? Especially since the averages here are so low.

You identify yourself as a Yalie on this forum in just about every post you make.

Do you do so in person too? Or maybe you just say you go to school in "New Haven," and when asked further, say, coyly, "Oh, Yale."

It is very toolish.

 

[CapnCrunch]

Organic Chemistry: 25% A's, 60% B's , 15% C's straight from the mouth of a Yale student who just took the class.

What?! No one gets a D or an F??? So basically, a 2.0 is bare minimum, a 3.0 is a given, and some effort will get you a 3.5? Sign me up.

Is this the "gentleman's C" I've been hearing about or is that something else entirely?

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Only on this site can people act as if a family income of 150K or 110K is not very well off.

+1

I was pretty surprised when I read that OP was paying so little for school when his parents made this much money! My parents make less than half that, combined, and I still ended up paying more for my private school tuition, including what I thought was a very generous grant from my university. I still didn't end up paying all that much compared to the actual tuition, though, so I'm very grateful!

 

[SarVA]

I go to a small liberal arts college that doesn't have much of a prestigious name, but I would argue that most of the science classes that I have taken have been just as rigorous as they would have been at any other university (including Ivy League schools). Only one of my classes (Organic I) was curved at all - in all of my other classes the grade that you earned was the grade that you got, so you were expected to know the material. I think that we can't just assume that schools with better-known names are necessarily harder - no matter where you go a lot of it is going to depend on the professor.

(I can back up my statement that my school or any other schools that don't have a prestigious name are just as difficult and teach you just as much with a 36 MCAT).

Of course the important decision is still up to the Admissions Committee...

 

[Cleveland]

I had a simple question, are all colleges equal in difficulty? Could anyone respond?

No...you kinda have to be a bit judicious in your college selection process (same with medical school choice, too...pass/no pass versus full grading, etc.) and understand that some choices fit better than others. A good example that I've found parallels the answer to your question is major choice. I know a lot of people have picked bio/chem/biochem due to its "relative ease" aka acceptable test averages for the intro courses over other tracks such as engineering. In many cases, this works to the student's advantage simply due to the fact that the students are better suited for that learning style and such. However, some tank due to the fact that they may be suited better for biomedical engineering or something along those lines.

Moral of the story? Don't pick on difficulty, but don't completely discount it either. Know how you like to work and find an environment that matches that. Keep working hard and getting A's...you'll be fine.

 

[slowbutsteady]

+1

I was pretty surprised when I read that OP was paying so little for school when his parents made this much money! My parents make less than half that, combined, and I still ended up paying more for my private school tuition, including what I thought was a very generous grant from my university. I still didn't end up paying all that much compared to the actual tuition, though, so I'm very grateful!

How would a family with 2 children pay 2 tuitions of $45,000 (AFTER taxes) on an income of $150,000? Of course that family needs financial aid, and many private universities will offer it.

 

[mediterranean]

There's nothing stopping a state school professor from testing as hard or harder than ivy. Conversely, there's nothing stopping an ivy school professor from testing as easy or easier than a state school.

The elitism in this thread is nauseating.

+1
Oh my God, thank you! Since all the professors at my state school went to ivy/very good schools, they think it is okay to test that way. Which is the main reason why I am a below average (in adcoms eyes) student. It just sucks and there is no grade inflation unless the whole class is failing (below a C). Major suckage.

 

[mediterranean]

I go to a small liberal arts college that doesn't have much of a prestigious name, but I would argue that most of the science classes that I have taken have been just as rigorous as they would have been at any other university (including Ivy League schools). Only one of my classes (Organic I) was curved at all - in all of my other classes the grade that you earned was the grade that you got, so you were expected to know the material. I think that we can't just assume that schools with better-known names are necessarily harder - no matter where you go a lot of it is going to depend on the professor.

(I can back up my statement that my school or any other schools that don't have a prestigious name are just as difficult and teach you just as much with a 36 MCAT).

Of course the important decision is still up to the Admissions Committee...

+1
I just hope the adcoms give us state schools/liberal arts college just as much love and not give in to the myth that state schools are easier because they are certainly not.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

I go to a small liberal arts college that doesn't have much of a prestigious name, but I would argue that most of the science classes that I have taken have been just as rigorous as they would have been at any other university (including Ivy League schools). Only one of my classes (Organic I) was curved at all - in all of my other classes the grade that you earned was the grade that you got, so you were expected to know the material. I think that we can't just assume that schools with better-known names are necessarily harder - no matter where you go a lot of it is going to depend on the professor.

(I can back up my statement that my school or any other schools that don't have a prestigious name are just as difficult and teach you just as much with a 36 MCAT).

Of course the important decision is still up to the Admissions Committee...

+1
I just hope the adcoms give us state schools/liberal arts college just as much love and not give in to the myth that state schools are easier because they are certainly not.

Agreed with both of you guys. I'm in a fairly selective state school and a good portion of my classmates are very bright (these kids are probably choosing state school to save money more than anything else), so it's competitive and i've had some quality professors.

Whether an adcom sees it or not, I like the campus and my classmates are very friendly. So at this point just try my best and see where it goes.

 

[mwall003]

This thread is rubbish. I cannot fathom the ignorance of some people. An ivy league school is not a golden ticket to medical school of anything you've put yourself in a more competitive situation.

If you go to a top 150 school public or private your absolutely fine. Just make the most of it, take rigorous classes, attempt research with a professor, take advantage of EC and volunteer opportunities, but in the end remember it is college and enjoy your 4 years. If you do all those things I'm sure you'll end up where you want to be.

 

[mwall003]

Also responding to slowbutsteady's comment

my parents make 160,000

My brother is in college I was admitted into two top 20 private school won't name names but its located in Atlanta and the other in Hanover. We were offered federal loans, $3,000 grant, and that was it. How is that remotely possible when my family has to put two kids through college (approx. 50,000) while paying for food, morgages, insurance, and living in the most expensive housing area in The United States. We went down to talk to a financial aid counselor at one of the schools and he basically said we're stuck in the middle range not rich enough to pay out of pocket, but making too much to receive a good financial aid package. He basically told us ways to maneuver around the system without bankrupting my parents savings account. What was I supposed to do take $40,000 loans for four years then apply to medical school and take $40,000 loans per year? That'd leave me on the streets in bankruptcy. To me its unfair, but that's life -- I'm now at a public state college with very bright students, a competitive honors program, with ivy league educated professors so please don't lecture me on how ivy's are superior.

 

[DendWrite]

I think that the answer is clearly no. Why are you strongly discouraged from taking all (or even one) of your prerequisites at a community college? It seems kind of naive to assume that once you jump up to a non-community college each one suddenly is equal. My guess would be that an adcom wouldn't deduct from your GPA but might add to it slightly depending on where you went for undergrad. I'd think that a 4.0 or a 3.9, even from a "lower ranked college" is still damn impressive. Plus, if you beat people from "higher-ranked" schools on the MCAT, how will they explain that? It's a standardized test.

My school's pre-med committee keeps data on how its undergrads do who gain admission to medical school. Over the past decade or so, the accepted GPA for a student from our school has been 0.1 lower than the national average GPA for accepted applicants. I'm at a top-15 undergrad. Does this mean that med schools consider our curriculum to be tougher? I'd say not necessarily. Most people here I know play "the admissions game" very well, and are heavily involved from the beginning in various health-related clubs, volunteer organizations, etc. That could easily make up for a 0.1 difference in GPA (especially if the GPA is approximately 3.5 or higher).

In my opinion, the effect is negligible. If you are a state school and you really think it's easier, get a 4.0 and ADCOMs will respect that obviously. If you are at a really tough school and you are asking this so that you can slack off in one of your classes, well, you shouldn't be doing that anyway. Nothing's a golden ticket, so take the chance if you want but realize that it's ill-advised. I DO believe that it's harder to get good grades here than it would be at a lower ranked school (based on my conversation with friends who are pre-med at my state school). But, I look at that as an advantage. I'd rather get used to the idea that you have to work hard for good grades, because eventually it will catch up to you (when it really matters, like your 3rd year rotation evals or residency applications).

Sometimes I wonder if getting into a more competitive undergrad might help me more in the medical school admissions game. In the end though, it just comes down to working hard and getting the best grades wherever you are. Life's not fair, but eventually it starts to become more performance-based rather than grades-based. People aren't going to say, "Yeah, well he can't tie suture, but he went to Harvard, so we'll honor him for his gen surg rotation." I think it's just a matter of doing your absolute best wherever you are and not looking at how other people are doing. Otherwise you'll go crazy trying to figure out whether you are ahead/behind, and all that speculation is just going to distract you from doing your own thing. You could complain just as much about med schools and URM status (which is probably a greater effect than where you went for college), but most people don't because it's one of those things that nobody knows about for sure and you couldn't change if you wanted to.

 

[sm640739]

middle class is not well off..
upper middle class kids get 0 financial aid.. (btw if there is some way they do.. well please inform me haha.. because i need to transfer next year and im in need of some cash)
i know already that im basically forced to go to a public school unless i want 120k debt before medical school..

👍 agreed. Upper middle class kids get no financial aid for undergrad (unless there are scholarships based on achievement, etc), have to apply for loans, and when those loans exceed the stupid FAFSA loans the student has to have a cosigner, who is usually a financially-strapped parent who couldn't pay for the student's education in the first place... so it's a decision based on debt - I personally decided to save my debt for med school. And fyi, I was accepted at an ivy and 3 prestigious private institutions, so no accusations of bitterness, please 🙂

 

[missbones]

Winning the parent lottery is a double edged sword in my case. (assuming that the parent lottery involves rich parents)

My parents were upper middle class when I was growing up and now that they are seperated my dad is upper class and my mom is out of the picture. However, my dad is the biggest penny pincher on the planet.

Do not assume that parents with money = parents willing to give their kids money. Also do not assume that parents with money are even slightly concerned with prestige themselves.

My dad's frugality and praticality bred directly into me, even though I have aspirations of attending medical school and shelling out 200k+ in loans in the process, I still couldn't see myself spending that much more on an ivy league undergraduate degree. I attended a cc first, worked full time, 9-12 units of enrollment per semester and then transferred to a state college, which I attend now. My dad sure as hell wasn't going to shell out any money for ivy league status, or even a state school.

In total my father has given me MAYBE $ 1,000 towards my education. I think even that is an overestimate. I make my own way, and it's even worse because I have to claim his income on my financial aid forms and I have not even qualified for a single loan or grant until 2010. To date I have only ~$5000 in loans and could graduate with my BA after this semester (if I didn't have more med school pre-reqs to complete)

 

[FlowRate]

The whole "All my classmates were valedictorian." thing makes me laugh. My HS valedictorian is going to MIT now but also doesn't give a flying cow. He has a C+ average from doing less work and is totally fine with that.

Stop comparing yourself and enjoy your school.

 

[VooDooo327]

Grade inflation FTW!