Are all FMG's equal?

[howelljolly]

So many IMGs in rad residencies....!

There are not many IMGs in radiology residencies.

In the last match, 2 US-IMGs and 6 FMGs got into the 157 PGY-1 seats.

There were 28 US-IMGs and 38 FMGs in the 925 PGY-2 seats.

And you never know with these statistics. The 2 US-IMGs who matched into radiology might have PhDs in physics with two post-docs in something related to radiology.

30 years ago when radiology was boring because all we had was plain x-rays, there were a lot of I/FMGs in the business.

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[Winged Scapula]

I agree - after having worked in multiple hospitals, the only foreign grad Rads resident I knew was a classmate of mine. There certainly are not a lot of them around.

 

[Blade28]

I've also only ever seen one FMG Radiology resident in the various hospitals where I've worked, and that particular resident had a PhD in physics.

 

[Domperidon]

There are not many IMGs in radiology residencies.

In the last match, 2 US-IMGs and 6 FMGs got into the 157 PGY-1 seats.

There were 28 US-IMGs and 38 FMGs in the 925 PGY-2 seats.

And you never know with these statistics. The 2 US-IMGs who matched into radiology might have PhDs in physics with two post-docs in something related to radiology.

30 years ago when radiology was boring because all we had was plain x-rays, there were a lot of I/FMGs in the business.

Well that data certainly gives you hope, especially when you compare it to derm stats:

2 non-us IMG in pgy-1 and
2 non-us IMG in pgy-2

Now THAT is a low number...

 

[medsRus]

There are not many IMGs in radiology residencies.

In the last match, 2 US-IMGs and 6 FMGs got into the 157 PGY-1 seats.

There were 28 US-IMGs and 38 FMGs in the 925 PGY-2 seats.

And you never know with these statistics. The 2 US-IMGs who matched into radiology might have PhDs in physics with two post-docs in something related to radiology.

30 years ago when radiology was boring because all we had was plain x-rays, there were a lot of I/FMGs in the business.

Those are great numbers for IMGs! Even more IMGs matched into Rads than for Anesthesiology, PM&R, Emergency Medicine, and close to Neurology and Pathology...

Can you tell me how many IMGs applied? With calculating match rates, then you can really compare...

 

[medsRus]

I've also only ever seen one FMG Radiology resident in the various hospitals where I've worked, and that particular resident had a PhD in physics.

Don't kid me, I've been in Connecticut, Mass, and Cali and saw plenty... At least one each program I've visited...

Anyone interested in Rads and are IMG, DO NOT DESPAIR! Do not let your competition turn you away... Apply and apply broadly.

 

[howelljolly]

Those are great numbers for IMGs! Even more IMGs matched into Rads than for Anesthesiology, PM&R, Emergency Medicine, and close to Neurology and Pathology...

Can you tell me how many IMGs applied? With calculating match rates, then you can really compare...

386 Independent applicants for Diagnostic Radiology as their first or only choice; there were others that listed something else as their first choice for whatever reason.

88 I/F-MGs in 1475 seats for Emergency Med
116 I/F-MGs in 1364 seats for Anesthesiology
52 I/F-MGs in 350 seats for PM&R

download the Match results from www.nrmp.org

 

[howelljolly]

Don't kid me, I've been in Connecticut, Mass, and Cali and saw plenty... At least one each program I've visited...

Anyone interested in Rads and are IMG, DO NOT DESPAIR! Do not let your competition turn you away... Apply and apply broadly.

There are 74 US and nonUS IMGs in 1058 PGY-1 and 2 seats in the whole country. (clerical error in the previous post)

I dont think thats plenty, but thats just me.

 

[dragonfly99]

medsrus,
I'm not "the competition". In fact, a lot of us on here are already in residency and/or fellowship, so no incentive for us to try and psych people out. Those statistics are not hopeful for an IMG or FMG thinking of radiology. One can try, but he/she had better have a backup plan.

medsrus,
Are you a student? Are you affiliated with or employed by any medical school? I am just curious. You have posted a lot of different posts about getting in to various specialties and I am just wondering why.

 

[howelljolly]

Nah... he's an emergency neuroradiologist from American University of Jesvenkestan

 

[BlondeDocteur]

I won't presume to speak for everyone, but I can tell you why I think the Caribbean schools are sub-optimal.

Everyone at a Caribbean school is there because they did not get into a school in their home country (generally the US and Canada, hereafter called 'American'). They have poorer GPAs, MCATs, and CVs than do American students. Fine. Let's divide those students into 2 groups: those who weren't serious about their studies and weren't well-prepared for the MCAT, but who are intelligent and dedicated to becoming a good physician, and those whose scores are, um, an accurate reflection of their true ability.

For the first group, the Caribbean schools are a wonderful second chance. All that group needed, once they got serious, was someone to give them a fair shake. They're bright, they're motivated, and they take that second chance and run with it. Those are the people who pass the boards well, approach the wards with enthusiasm, and make good residents.

The second group-- those who truly aren't bright or dedicated enough to make it through medical training-- are what give me problems. The Caribbean schools are famously for-profit institutions. They admit without discretion. They admit for 1-2 years of "premedical" studies, or "half-time" studies, or whatever-- anything to make a buck. People fail, are re-admitted, fail... The schools themselves have *no* incentive to winnow them out (which they could do-- they could have a single entry time, they could conduct real interviews).

And they shaft people on their clinicals. The quality and rigor of your clinical sites varies enormously. Some are glorified observerships, some are slave labor, many award only A+s and As, nothing lower. Again, the schools have little incentive to change any of this. I feel that if you came out of a Caribbean school with good board scores and a solid fund of medical knowledge, you are to be especially commended because it was most likely entirely of your own doing, *despite* the barriers imposed by your school.

OP, I'd take a seat in a "real," national medical school-- one with its own hospitals and its own clinical faculty, who will train students to become residents in its own system-- any day over a for-profit Caribbean school. Whether that means Sackler, or Ireland, or Australia is really up to you (though they're three quite different countries: make sure you'd be happy living there).

Oh, and please let's all avoid the "there's this one guy" fallacy. Yes, there's the brilliant Hopkins grad who hates attending on the wards and just wants to get back to his lab. Yes, a woman from SGU is now attending in rad-onc at Harvard. Yes, that Ross peds resident is so full of warm fuzzies, his patients love him to death. As with any statistical distribution, there will be outliers, but they don't affect trend.

 

[medsRus]

386 Independent applicants for Diagnostic Radiology as their first or only choice; there were others that listed something else as their first choice for whatever reason.

88 I/F-MGs in 1475 seats for Emergency Med
116 I/F-MGs in 1364 seats for Anesthesiology
52 I/F-MGs in 350 seats for PM&R

download the Match results from www.nrmp.org

So, my statements hold up!

Also, fine 386 Independent applicants (but, you don't know how many of those are IMGs)...

 

[medsRus]

medsrus... he/she had better have a backup plan.

Obviously!

 

[medsRus]

I crunched the numbers for PGY-2 Radiology based on Match Outcomes 2008:

1364 total applicants, 954 US-seniors, and the rest (410) Independent applicants.

758/954 US-seniors matched = 79%

151/410 independent applicants matched = 37%

There you go! Have a backup, but IMGs, apply broadly and succeed!

Apply the same calculations to PGY-2 Neurology:

You get (371 - 226) / (730 - 338) x 100 = 37% independent applicant match rate (the same as Rads)!

Hey, for the fun of it, let's try Pathology:

You have (467-298)/(793-326) = 36% independent applicant match rate (in fact, lower than Rads)!

Get the point?????????

*Remember, that independent applicants are US IMG, Non-US IMG, 5th Pathways, Canadian, Osteo, and US grads (not seniors).

 

[DocDrex1]

Good advice guys,

I was originally thinking about which International medical school would have the best match stats in the US. From what I've seen, it seems that a good Caribbean school, Israel, UK/Ireland/Australia can all be successful routes. They all have pros and cons.

However, I've begun to think about doing residency outside of the US. I'll have much more choice in specialties and many of the Commonwealth nations have reciprocity with Canada (where I'm from). I think Australia seems like the best route for me. The training is superb, cheaper than Ireland/UK, shorter training than Ireland/UK, and a likely chance to do training in Australia too. Also, if I really don't like it there, I can still try for the US residencies (although with limited possibilities). Also, there seems to be a bias for Australian/UK/Irish grads for residency in Canada. However, getting a residency in Canada is going to be difficult for any IMG.

In terms of the Caribbean and Israel, they are probably not as great options for me since the only option would be to come back to the US. The Caribbean schools have no residency programs. Israeli residency would never be accepted in Canada and the pay there is horrible. Also, it's not that easy to stay in Israel after training there.

 

[howelljolly]

So, my statements hold up!

Also, fine 386 Independent applicants (but, you don't know how many of those are IMGs)...

what...? those are crappy match rates.

 

[howelljolly]

I won't presume to speak for everyone, but I can tell you why I think the Caribbean schools are sub-optimal.

Everyone at a Caribbean school is there because they did not get into a school in their home country (generally the US and Canada, hereafter called 'American'). They have poorer GPAs, MCATs, and CVs than do American students. Fine. Let's divide those students into 2 groups: those who weren't serious about their studies and weren't well-prepared for the MCAT, but who are intelligent and dedicated to becoming a good physician, and those whose scores are, um, an accurate reflection of their true ability.

Oh, and please let's all avoid the "there's this one guy" fallacy. Yes, there's the brilliant Hopkins grad who hates attending on the wards and just wants to get back to his lab. Yes, a woman from SGU is now attending in rad-onc at Harvard. Yes, that Ross peds resident is so full of warm fuzzies, his patients love him to death. As with any statistical distribution, there will be outliers, but they don't affect trend.

Not true.
There are quite a few people at Carribean schools who did not even attempt to apply to the US who have graduate degrees, (PhDs as well). Because of age, and being out of school for some length of time, low GPA, and other factors, are discouraged from applying in the US. Then, they remain "under-informed" about the Carribean schools and end up there.

I totally agree with the "theres this one guy" fallacy. Many people foolishly get burned for that.

 

[medsRus]

what...? those are crappy match rates.

Not really, not as "crappy" as you made them to be when you listed the number of IMGs and the total seats per specialty. You must take into account the total applicants per category too.

 

[Domperidon]

Not really, not as "crappy" as you made them to be when you listed the number of IMGs and the total seats per specialty. You must take into account the total applicants per category too.

This is correct. The key would be to know the actual number of IMG among those Indipendent applicants.

 

[howelljolly]

Because Independent Applicants includes American graduates, that are not allopathic seniors... AMGs that are changing residencies, or specialties.

 

[medsRus]

This is correct. The key would be to know the actual number of IMG among those Indipendent applicants.

I'm trying to get this information right now...

 

[medsRus]

Based on 2007 match data, 43% of independent applicants matched into Radiology (which includes IMGs). The numbers are: 179 matched out of 419 independent applicants.

 

[howelljolly]

Based on 2007 match data, 43% of independent applicants matched into Radiology (which includes IMGs). The numbers are: 179 matched out of 419 independent applicants.

And all 179 of those could be American grads that did a Prelim Surgery internship, not IMGs.

 

[dragonfly99]

medsrus
I'm not trying to be hateful at all.
However, I would bet that the vast majority of those independent candidates who matched into radiology are US MD's who had to try twice to get in to radiology (happens a lot) so they aren't "US seniors" on that go-round of the match, and/or osteopathic docs trying to cross over and do an allopathic radiology residency. I know numerous folks from top 20-30 US medical schools who had good grades and board scores, but who had to try twice to get in to radiology, and/or did an entire medicine residency first and then did radiology. There just aren't that many radiology spots and I haven't run into even one IMG/FMG at an allopathic radiology residency in any of the last 5 years I've been a resident/fellow in several hospitals. There are older IMG and FMG radiologists in their 40's and 50's, but those are holdovers
Yes I'm sure there are a few IMG's and FMG's who probably manage to get in to allopathic radiology residencies, but that number is tiny. I'll bet the match rate for a Caribbean IMG into radiology is <10%, and probably not much better for an FMG applicant, if any better. I doubt you'll be able to get the exact data, as I think the NRMP might just lump all "independent applicants" into one single category in their statistics.

Blonddocteur, what would you say if I told you that I had a 32R on the MCAT, a 3.8 GPA and was Phi beta kappa, had medical volunteer work, etc. and yet still didn't get in to medical school on my first try? There are students who just don't get in to US schools for various reasons, and not all of them were poor students in undergrad. You might assume so because YOU may have had a relatively easy time getting in to medical school, but there is a crapshoot aspect to getting in to medical school. Sometimes folks just get fed up with waiting to get in to a US school, and in some states there just aren't that many spots in the state-sponsored med school(s), and/or a person might just not fit the profile of what the state sponsored schools are looking for. Also, as pointed out above, some folks with a PhD might graduate off-cycle and due to their age just don't want to wait an extra year(s) to see if they can get admission to a US school. Also, nontrads often find it a tough climb getting in to US schools, as they may prefer younger applicants even if the nontrad has an OK GPA and MCAT score.

 

[medsRus]

medsrus
I'm not trying to be hateful at all.
However, I would bet that the vast majority of those independent candidates who matched into radiology are US MD's who had to try twice to get in to radiology (happens a lot) so they aren't "US seniors" on that go-round of the match, and/or osteopathic docs trying to cross over and do an allopathic radiology residency

Look at the stats, they don't lie. Luckily, the 2008 data is more comprehensive than that of 2007. Of the 151 total matched independent applicants for PGY-2 Radiology (Diagnostic), here is the match breakdown per sub-category of independent applicants:

28 - US-IMGs
38 - Non-US-IMGs
2 - 5th Pathway
(That is 68 total IMGs)
0 - Canadian
31 - Osteo
52 - US Grads (not seniors)
​

Therefore, there are MORE total IMGs matched than US grads or osteopaths. So, your claim that "the vast majority of those independent candidates who matched into radiology are US MDs... and/or osteopathic docs" is simply wrong!

As an "assistant SDN moderator," I would be more careful before making such sweeping statements with the facts/stats in place...

 

[howelljolly]

oh my gawd.

theres something called "self selection" Only people who have a good chance in being selected will apply, those with a poor chance do not attempt to apply.

As we've suggested, those IMGs might have PhDs in Physics. They might have gone to Oxford, or Cambridge, not the Clown College of the Carribean.

Fine, apply for radiology. its not our money that you'll be wasting.

 

[gutonc]

28 - US-IMGs
38 - Non-US-IMGs
2 - 5th Pathway
(That is 68 total IMGs)
0 - Canadian
31 - Osteo
52 - US Grads (not seniors)
​

Therefore, there are MORE total IMGs matched than US grads or osteopaths. So, your claim that "the vast majority of those independent candidates who matched into radiology are US MDs... and/or osteopathic docs" is simply wrong!

Your math skills need some help.
28+38+2=68 total I/FMGs
31+52=83 US Grads/DOs

So that's 68/1364 = about a 5% match rate overall for I/FMGs

 

[medsRus]

Your math skills need some help.
28+38+2=68 total I/FMGs
31+52=83 US Grads/DOs

So that's 68/1364 = about a 5% match rate overall for I/FMGs

No, my math skills are right on target. Perhaps, its your language skills that needs refining. Never did I claim greater overall matches for IMGs than US grads AND osteopaths combined (read my post). In fact, I said "there are MORE total IMGs matched than US grads OR osteopaths."

Even if I accept your numbers, 83 versus 68 is does not make a "vast majority" as moderator dragonfly99 stipulated before I provided the real stats.

And your 5% BS, where did you pull that out of? It means nothing. What if only 68 IMGs applied... that would make it 100% rate (obviously highly implausible, but makes the point nonetheless.) You cannot create create stats with the basic numbers (i.e. applicants per category).

Good luck!

 

[howelljolly]

If this is how you talk to fellowship trained physicians, I hope I never run into you on the interview trail.

 

[medsRus]

If this is how you talk to fellowship trained physicians, I hope I never run into you on the interview trail.

I liked you better when you were hitting your head against a brick wall! LOL!

 

[Domperidon]

C'mon guys no flaming required here...
Obviously anything is possible for those IMG who have superior qualifications/previous experience/right connections...but self selection DOES play a part in this!

Anyway, if I were an IMG looking forward to match rads, I'd take the way 'round the obstacle. I don't know if it is feasible for those of you interested, but give it a look:
http://theabr.org/DR_IMG.htm

 

[medsRus]

C'mon guys no flaming required here...
Obviously anything is possible for those IMG who have superior qualifications/previous experience/right connections...but self selection DOES play a part in this!

Anyway, if I were an IMG looking forward to match rads, I'd take the way 'round the obstacle. I don't know if it is feasible for those of you interested, but give it a look:
http://theabr.org/DR_IMG.htm

This looks very promising for docs already trained and certified in radiology abroad. Thanks for this info.!

 

[dragonfly99]

Ok, medsrus, I should have said "majority" instead of "vast majority", but regardless, there were still 50-something US allopathic grads/reapplicants who did match, vs. just 28 IMG's (I'm assuming most of those are Caribbean grads, but some might be grads of other schools like UK schools, etc.). We still don't have a clue of what the match rate would be for a IMG (i.e. US citizen but trained outside the US, such as in the Carib, etc.) applying to radiology.

medsrus and gutonc:
151/410 independent applicants matched = 37%
That's a helpful statistic

as is the 79% overall match rate for allopathic US seniors.

gutonc
your 5% match rate is a miscalculation b/c you based it on the overall number of (IMG + FMG)/total number of independent applicants. The match rate is probably not that low...though it's possible. What would really be most helpful to know would be:

% of IMG (i.e. US students who went abroad to school, most of which would be to a Caribbean school) who match into radiology if they try.
and
% of FMG (i.e. non US citizen FMG's who went to a foreign school of some type) who match into radiology if they try
% of osteopathic 4th year students who match into radiology at an allopathic school if they tried.

So far, nobody has been able to produce that statistic. The match rate could be exactly 37% for all 3 of these groups, but it probably isn't....probably it's lower for some or one of the groups and higher for other(s).

What is interesting is that there is a larger absolute number of FMG's (i.e. non US citizen foreign trained docs) than IMG's (i.e. US citizen but trained abroad) who matched into US radiology allopathic residencies. I wonder if this is because there are a lot of FMG's applying or because the FMG's might tend to be older folks who have a PhD, etc. and/or other advanced training such as prior medical training in their home countries, or perhaps there are a lot of FMG's who rocked their boards?

Another thing to keep in mind is that I'm assuming some of the DO students probably went into a DO radiology residency perhaps...so at least they have another option if they can't match in the allopathic radiology match, or choose not to. I'm assuming that DO hospitals have their own radiology residencies...

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Blonddocteur, what would you say if I told you that I had a 32R on the MCAT, a 3.8 GPA and was Phi beta kappa, had medical volunteer work, etc. and yet still didn't get in to medical school on my first try? There are students who just don't get in to US schools for various reasons, and not all of them were poor students in undergrad. You might assume so because YOU may have had a relatively easy time getting in to medical school, but there is a crapshoot aspect to getting in to medical school. Sometimes folks just get fed up with waiting to get in to a US school, and in some states there just aren't that many spots in the state-sponsored med school(s), and/or a person might just not fit the profile of what the state sponsored schools are looking for. Also, as pointed out above, some folks with a PhD might graduate off-cycle and due to their age just don't want to wait an extra year(s) to see if they can get admission to a US school. Also, nontrads often find it a tough climb getting in to US schools, as they may prefer younger applicants even if the nontrad has an OK GPA and MCAT score.

Dragonfly, I would say that fits in perfectly with my arguments above:
1) Everyone at a Caribbean school is there because they did not get into an American one (whether or not they actually applied is irrelevant; if they priced themselves out of the game-- based on faulty information or accurate-- or if they actually threw their hat in the ring, applied and were not admitted, they still went down to the Carib because they did not gain admission at home. I maintain that no one actively chooses a Caribbean medical education over a home-grown one because they like the snorkeling).
2) Many of those students have the intelligence and dedication to succeed in medicine, thus the Caribbean school of their choice is a brilliant 'second chance.'

No one said med school admissions doesn't have a good deal of arbitrary hoop-jumping. It certainly does. There are lots of variables, state of residency, age and "over-represented minority" status chief among them.

And MedsRus, I think a breakdown of the *unmatched* independent applicants will be more telling.

 

[dragonfly99]

blondedocteur,
I don't think it fits with your argument. I am not someone who attended a Caribbean medical school. My point was that I COULD HAVE BEEN...very easily. And I don't think I was an academically marginal candidate for medical school...your argument as I understood it was that Caribbean medical schools are ONLY for students whose applications showed they were academically marginal in some way. My argument was that sometimes pretty good applicants who really do have the qualifications just don't get in to medical school in the US. On my 2nd try, I got in to a medical school that is consistently ranked in the top 5 in the US. I did have a slightly higher MCAT score the 2nd time around, and had 1 extra letter of recommendation, but really there wasn't a whole lot of change in my application otherwise. I am sure there were qualified applicants turned away from medical school they year that I was accepted...and I'm sure there are qualified applicants being turned away this year. Medical (and other professional school) admissions is an inexact science at best. I think to make sweeping statements about all student who attend Caribbean schools isn't really helpful. So I think the answer to the original post's ? about whether all FMG's are equal is "No, they are not". However, a lot of people have their suspicions about the quality of the education at a lot of the Caribbean medical schools, and about some of the students who go down there for school.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Dragonfly:

You could have been a Caribbean student, had you not chosen to reapply. Therefore:

1) You would have been in the Carib because you did not gain admission to a US school;
2) You were bright and deserved a 'second chance.'

I am not arguing that some people don't deserve second chances, because they slacked off or fell through the cracks or were demographically undesirable or whatever. I am saying that I, personally, dislike Caribbean schools because their incentive structures are such (as for-profit institutions) that they admit indiscriminately and provide little oversight of the educational experience of their students.

 

[Domperidon]

What is interesting is that there is a larger absolute number of FMG's (i.e. non US citizen foreign trained docs) than IMG's (i.e. US citizen but trained abroad) who matched into US radiology allopathic residencies. I wonder if this is because there are a lot of FMG's applying or because the FMG's might tend to be older folks who have a PhD, etc. and/or other advanced training such as prior medical training in their home countries

I believe this is the case...as was implied before by the concept of self selection. But on the other hand, you would think someone already certified in his/her own country would prefer going the alternative path (see above)...I know I would! So that leaves me guessing..maybe they all have related research experience plus other hidden aces?!

 

[Excelsius]

bluealiendoctor,

Having read your post, I have to say you pose the same arguments that every non-traditional caribbean/FMG student who is pissed off about the system states.

The problem is this:

1) You and other students like yourself couldn't get into an American medical school. That in it self speaks volumes. So yea, I would want the person from Joe Schmoe American university over an FMG because at least that person got into a school in their own country. Who cares about the reasons....you couldn't get in.

2) You have to seperate FMG and IMG. I have a lot respect for IMG's who grew up in other countries and went to school in their own homeland before attempting to immigrate to this country. For the most part, they are coming over to give themselves and their families a better life and oppurtunities.

3)American FMG's on the other hand are usually (not always), students who screwed up in undergrad or couldnt do well on the MCAT who use a loophole in our system to get a 2nd tier education outside of our country and call themselves doctors. They write about how we should feel about their loans...they are the ones who choose to go to these overpriced, diploma mills so no, I don't feel bad for them.

4) You talk about board scores being the great equalizer but they are not. It's been discussed numerous times that they are simply a certification exam. So yea if I a med student at Harvard gets a 220 and you go to a caribbean school and get a 260, I'm still going to take the Harvard student because I know they didn't spend 2 years simply studying for the test and another 6 months waiting and studying aterwards. Most american grads spend around 3-5 weeks studying for step 1 and have a curriculum designed not to pass Step I but to teach the essentials to becoming a good physician which is far more than Step I I assure you.

If I had my way, I would let all residency spots be available to american grads and then give what remains to IMG's. FMG's would not factor into the equation.

This is the first time I am seeing what the medical community really thinks of FMGs. Maybe if you guys were more honest upfront, less premeds would choose Caribbean. Yet I see a lot of posts comparing Caribs with DOs and how a Carib is better because of the MD.

I wonder how much longer it will take me to find the true opinion about DOs. Why don't we admit right here that #1, #3, and #4 actually do apply to DOs as well? It will be very misleading and dishonest to say that DOs have no stigma at all. Because it is "ours," it will be tougher for anyone to truly criticize it. This is where I wish we had an anonymous thread where attendings/directors/residents could express their true opinion about this as well. I sure am glad I came across this thread. For some people the stigma doesn't matter much. For others, even the slightest stigma is enough to deter them from Caribs or even DOs (unless DO is a personal choice).

 

[howelljolly]

What is interesting is that there is a larger absolute number of FMG's (i.e. non US citizen foreign trained docs) than IMG's (i.e. US citizen but trained abroad) who matched into US radiology allopathic residencies. I wonder if this is because there are a lot of FMG's applying or because the FMG's might tend to be older folks who have a PhD, etc. and/or other advanced training such as prior medical training in their home countries, or perhaps there are a lot of FMG's who rocked their boards?

Another thing to keep in mind is that I'm assuming some of the DO students probably went into a DO radiology residency perhaps...so at least they have another option if they can't match in the allopathic radiology match, or choose not to. I'm assuming that DO hospitals have their own radiology residencies...

:troll:

According to that radiology website, it seems that they rads people are pretty accepting of overseas training. Actually, some fields would rather accept an applicant without any specialty training and teach them from scratch, rather than re-teach them "correctly"

This is the Top 20 countries where both I and F-MGs within the US have trained:
Ive taken the liberty of annotating some of them...

1. India - 19.9% (47,581) [generates both IMGs and FMGs]
2. Philippines - 8.7% (20,861)
3. Mexico - 5.8% (13,929) [location of UAG, 5th Pathway)
4. Pakistan - 4.8% (11,330)
5. Dominican Republic - 3.3% (7,892)
6. U.S.S.R. - 2.5% (6,039)
7. Grenada - 2.4% (5,708) [location of St Georges U.]
8. Egypt - 2.2% (5,202)
9. Korea - 2.1% (4,982)
10. Italy - 2.1% (4,978)
11. China - 2.0% (4,834)
12. Iran - 2.0% (4,741)
13. Spain - 1.9% (4,570)
14. Dominica - 1.9% (4,501) [location of Ross U]
15. Germany - 1.9% (4,457)
16. Syria - 1.5% (3,676)
17. Columbia - 1.4% (3,335)
18. Israel 1.4% (3,260)
19. England- 1.4% (3,245)
20. Montserrat (3,111) [original location of AUC, since blown up s/p volcano eruption]

Now, a well known PD says that if it were up to sheer numbers, every non-AMG residency seat would (or could) be taken by an Indian. Because, If you look for the top scorers on the USMLE first, and then look for people with graduate degrees and publications, you'll find all you need in the Indian group simply because there are so many of them in the applicant pool. You'll have a normal distribution of scores, but since "n" is so high, you'll find the qualified people you are looking for.

So, you might easily fill up all of your extra residency seats with the top 2 on the list.

Now, according to their website, SGU in Granada (#7) has placed students in 15 Radiology programs over the last five years. If they placed more than one student at a given program, perhaps they have 15 to 20 Residents in Radiology. But since we are looking at the stats from the last Match, I'll have you know that one of the seats in question were given to an SGU student. (one rad-onc seat was taken though, congrats are in order)

Next, we fly to Ross University on Dominica. 15 students took both PGY1 & 2 spots this year.

So, this is what we know. Most overseas trained applicants do not come from the Carribean, and in the last Match, 16 individuals from the two largest and most prestegious Carribean schools matched into Radiology.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Very interesting, h-j. How did you find those FMG raw numbers?

Excellent post, btw.

 

[howelljolly]

This is the first time I am seeing what the medical community really thinks of FMGs. Maybe if you guys were more honest upfront, less premeds would choose Caribbean. Yet I see a lot of posts comparing Caribs with DOs and how a Carib is better because of the MD.

I wonder how much longer it will take me to find the true opinion about DOs. Why don't we admit right here that #1, #3, and #4 actually do apply to DOs as well? It will be very misleading and dishonest to say that DOs have no stigma at all. Because it is "ours," it will be tougher for anyone to truly criticize it. This is where I wish we had an anonymous thread where attendings/directors/residents could express their true opinion about this as well. I sure am glad I came across this thread. For some people the stigma doesn't matter much. For others, even the slightest stigma is enough to deter them from Caribs or even DOs (unless DO is a personal choice).

Ah yes! the double standards and the arrogance of the Medical Community.

The med school admission selection process is grossly flawed. It consistently admits students who need to retake or re-exam a class two or three times; and turns away its own assistant professors. (true story, know two of them)

The common argument here seems to be that the Carribean student "couldn't get into an American med school" It apparently doesnt matter 1) why, and 2)that the med school selection process is inherently flawed.

 

[howelljolly]

Very interesting, h-j. How did you find those FMG raw numbers?

Excellent post, btw.

thanks

the AMA has committees on IMGs in the American workforce. You can get a lot of info that on the AMA website.

Ross U and SGU post their Match results on their website.

 

[dragonfly99]

wow
good post Howell jolly
that was very interesting

So Ross U had 15 people match in radiology last year? That's actually a lot...or do they graduate 400 people/year or something?

I knew there were lots of FMG's (and a few IMG's) from India training here in the US but I didn't know there were that many applying.

 

[howelljolly]

I've heard that Ross U. accepts approximately 200 students, three times per year, and of course graduate one class per year.

Of those, more than half will not make it to graduation, because they drop out (living on a deserted island is not easy), fail out because of their GPA, fail out s/p the internal Basic Science final exam, and some of those that survive this gauntlet will fail the USMLE. I dont know how many make it out alive, but heres the list http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/files/2008ResidencyList.pdf. The website says they have 6500 graduates over the last 30 years (mean 217/yr), and each graduating class is larger than any US class.

Im wondering, how much does name recognition play a role in the residency appointments. It seems that quite a few Ross students got into radio, and few got into Emergency Med, whereas it was the other way around to SGU. And since Im interested in EM....

 

[DocDrex1]

In Canada (where I'm from), no one knows what a DO is. Most would think it's an optometrist. But this doesn't matter since patients never look at the doctors degree.

There is a large Caribbean stigma in Canada, much more so than other FMG's. That's why Canadians will usually choose the UK, Ireland, or Australia before going to the Caribbean. UK, Ireland, Australia have great medical schools that both physicians and patients never doubt.

 

[medsRus]

In Canada (where I'm from), no one knows what a DO is. Most would think it's an optometrist.

LOL! I taught that too before I was apart of the medical community...

the AMA has committees on IMGs in the American workforce. You can get a lot of info that on the AMA website.

Just give the damn link to the source you referenced. Why so cryptic?

 

[Excelsius]

Are you kidding? You must be spending all your time in the Carib forums. Amongst the bulk of SDN, nearly every poster with a modicum of medical knowledge or experience will tell you that DO is far superior in terms of matching and opportunites than any Caribbean school.



It is misleading, no doubt. You will find many Osteopathic Med Students who insist there is no significant DO stigma left in America, except among "old doctors". They believe this because (1) their DO attendings tell them that their degree does not have any adverse effect on their practice, and (2) they are in DO-heavy communities where people are familiar with the degree and schools.

Both of these are essentially living selection bias. I still explain to patients several times a month what a DO is, usually when they ask me why they are seeing a DO instead of a "doctor" for their specialty referral. I know of a few programs that have never taken a DO and never will, and I know several others where they "look at those types of applicants very hard before even considering them". In most hospitals I have been in, "Oh, he's a DO" is an accepted explanation for why a resident/attending did something stupid.

But that being said, the DO bias is fundamentally different than the Carib bias. It is a bias of attitude with only some small functional barriers. DOs are recognized by the national organizations and the law as inherrently equal to US-trained MDs. DO students and residents, in most cases, are given the opportunity to prove themselves to allopathic programs and are not written-off immediately. Integration has been occurring, and will continue, especially as the DO numbers grow.

The same simply cannot be said of Caribbean students, who are handicapped in this process from the moment they enroll. If anything, Carib graduates are going to be increasingly pushed out US programs, and there is no growing movement towards acceptance.

Actually, no. I have never even visited the Carib forum and have only recently heard about its existence. I might have visited the DO forum, but I am not certain even about that.

It's great. In one thread we nailed both Caribs and DOs (well maybe DOs have not been nailed as much, but it is understandable given that they are "accredited" and made in USA). Since you admit that some programs would never admit a DO, I can safely assume that it should be almost impossible for a DO to get into a neurosurgery program/fellowship, especially an MD one.

The problem with medical students is that they open their mouth in the pre-allo forum saying that the only difference between an MD and a DO is the two-letter ending. They should really get a reality check from threads like this before misleading starry-eyed pre-meds. And yes, while less common, I have seen some people say that Carib is better than DO and their logic is understandable - once you start practicing, very few are going to look at what school you have attended, whereas if you are a DO, it is always going to follow your name and your patients will keep asking you whether you are a real doctor and will not trust you because of that (not all). Carib maybe makes it more difficult to get the residency you need, but the DO makes it difficult to practice after you are done with your slightly-better-than-Carib residency. Try building a patient base in private practice and having to lure patients to you while explaining that you are a real doctor. After going through all that rigorous training, some people might just go nuts at such questions. That's why sometimes I wonder whether it is better to have the mindset "MD or nothing." At least for some personalities, I am sure that will be true. It sure is easier to justify your degree once you have it. Even the staunchest critic needs a coping mechanism. People like howeljolly who stay unbiased and objective throughout the process are indeed rare.

Finally, there is the respect issue among your colleagues. The same residents that think of DOs and Caribs as inferior are going to be your colleagues in 6-10 years.

 

[McLaren]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[howelljolly]

LOL! I taught that too before I was apart of the medical community...



Just give the damn link to the source you referenced. Why so cryptic?

You are not part of the medical community... or is that apart from? Either way, perhaps you can check out the AMA website, and easily find their information on FMGs.

 

[howelljolly]

Finally, there is the respect issue among your colleagues. The same residents that think of DOs and Caribs as inferior are going to be your colleagues in 6-10 years.

People are people everywhere. You will always have a respect problem somewhere, if its not Carib or DO, its surgeons picking on physicians, Derm vs. Them, and Medicine picking on ER docs.

But, I think you're still off on your assessment of things. Only people within the medical community (MDs) are so opposed to DOs. The general public couldnt care less. They dont know what training is involved in becoming an MD, DO, or RN. Years ago, I went to some high school awards dinner, and a well known chiropractor from the town was in the audience. In the middle of someones speech, his pager went off, and he jumped up and ran out (subluxation emergency I'd imagine). The whole congregation was chattering about what a great doctor he was, and perhaps some of the students might be like him some day...

The training of DOs goes above and beyond that of MDs. They learn the same A&P, biochem, micro, pharm, and additionally learn OMM. Before they can start residency they are required to do a transitional (rotating) internship. The public doesnt know that, and MDs dont care. They arent MDs, so they are inferior. And no Im not in DO school

Anyhow, back to DOs, the public does NOT think they are less of a physician that an MD is, only MDs think that. At best if they make an assumption, they think that a DO works on bones. I've been dabbling in this medical business for over ten years, and I'm convinced that nobody cares what degree you have after your name.... they dont look at your nametag, and ask. If a DO is in the same room as a patient, its because that patient went to their office, or hospital - they already assume that they'll get treated there. Also, they dont look for an MD or DO... they go looking for an Internist, OB/Gyn, surgoen, etc.etc.


To sum it up, its as absurd as saying that the public knows that a DDS is superior/inferior to DMD. Noone knows, nobody cares, patients go to find a dentist, and they find one or the other.

I wonder if the rest of the world has this problem with MBBS vs. MBChB

Caribs too... You probably know some Carib grads in practice... if you get bored one day, look them up.
Matter of fact, you'll find DOs as well... youve always just called them doctor.

About residency. DOs are in a much better position than Caribs. Not marginally so. They have their own protected residencies, their own goverining bodies, and Boards. No DO is left without a residency. The whole system, from med school, to residency, to board certification is protected and in place. Gosh, they have their own Hospitals. Carib grads are left with the spoils of the residency match, and in fact, ony 40% of Carribean grads actually match.