Are BA/BS-MD programs worth it?

[preMedFalcon]

Since a lot of people seem to advise to prioritize prestige over right fit when choosing which medical school to attend, I was wondering about the BA/BS-MD programs. These combined and accelerated programs are not affiliated with "top" medical schools, except for a select few. However, none are affiliated with like T5 or T10 schools. So for those who give this advise, does this mean that students who go to these programs are going to be punished for trying to save a couple of years because they're committed on attending a "lower-tier" school?

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[deleted1080380]

If you have a BS/MD program acceptance take it and run (unless it's a notably bad program or you hate the university).

Most good programs have very lenient requirements for stats, so you can literally do whatever you want during undergrad while almost being completely stress-free. Like seriously, the amount of effort and time you will save whilst having to maintain a 3.3 and 505 mcat as opposed to a 3.8+ and 515+ should in itself be enough.

On top of that, you are essentially spending 4 extra years at your medical school (may vary by campus). Obviously, you are not taking classes and aren't enrolled, but you can get a massive headstart on research, networking, etc. that will ultimately save you even more stress AND will put you miles ahead for residency applications.

Lastly, your note about "non are affiliated with T5 or T10 schools" is redundant. It's not like denying a BS/MD program would get you into a T5/T10 anyway. To get accepted into one of those schools is largely luck unless you have done something truly exceptional, all of which cannot be guaranteed. Turning a good BS/MD because you think you will get into a T5 is probably the dumbest logic I've heard on here. Further, if you fall into the latter group, you don't need any school name to carry you. There are plenty of BS/MD at T50 MDs which is more than enough for anything you'd want.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Lastly, your note about "non are affiliated with T5 or T10 schools" is redundant. It's not like denying a BS/MD program would get you into a T5/T10 anyway. To get accepted into one of those schools is largely luck unless you have done something truly exceptional, all of which cannot be guaranteed. Turning a good BS/MD because you think you will get into a T5 is probably the dumbest logic I've heard on here. Further, if you fall into the latter group, you don't need any school name to carry you. There are plenty of BS/MD at T50 MDs which is more than enough for anything you'd want.

I completely understand and agree with your point. However, if you're not already aware, many people, especially on SDN, emphasize that prestige of the medical school is very important for residency matching, even though in reality it is not, at least not that much. So since according to those people going to a "lower-tier" school will be hurtful, I was wondering from their perspective if that means that students who go to one of these combined programs are destined to have a hard time in advancing in their medical career since none of these programs are affiliated with very prestigious schools.

I already know that in reality these combined programs are a very good option for students who are absolutely certain they want to be a doctor. I'm already in college and will be applying to medical school the standard way. I was just wondering.

 

[deleted1080380]

However, if you're not already aware, many people, especially on SDN, emphasize that prestige of the medical school is very important for residency matching, even though in reality it is not, at least not that much. So since according to those people going to a "lower-tier" school will be hurtful

This is just untrue unless you're some sort of Massgen/JHU resident or bust. Also on what planet is anything out of t5-10 low tier? lmao

Almost every single state school, ranked all the way from 10 to 60, have great residencies in all areas including competitive ones like ortho, derm, etc. These schools love to take from their own students. Essentially if you're at the top of your class at any decent MD you can match into any specialty (w good scores, etc. obviously), but not anywhere*

Realistically every school ranked 1-40 (with exceptions depending on school focus) seems to send 5-6 people to ortho, 3-4 to derm, etc. with minor variations. True, state students are more likely to match at the state programs, and HMS to massgen, but at the end of the day it's the exact same thing...in fact the people at the mega research hospitals will probably be making less in the future.

Like seriously I don't think people on this forumn really grasp the notion that these high ranked research schools will really only put you a foot ahead if you plan on doing academic medicine, which 95% of people want nothing to do with when they realize what it entails but instead blindly are attracted to because of pResTigE.

Also, back to the original point, there are still plenty of BSMDs in T20-30s, so I don't really see your problem here. If you're actually t5 or bust then there's no hope. The point about luck and variability still stands.

Also just for the record I'm not trying to start some sort of prestige pissing match that people here are so fond of, so if anyone plans on quoting me arguing that prestige of medical school is more important than climate change or something, save me the brain cells and just dont.

 

[KnightDoc]

I completely understand and agree with your point. However, if you're not already aware, many people, especially on SDN, emphasize that prestige of the medical school is very important for residency matching, even though in reality it is not, at least not that much. So since according to those people going to a "lower-tier" school will be hurtful, I was wondering from their perspective if that means that students who go to one of these combined programs are destined to have a hard time in advancing in their medical career since none of these programs are affiliated with very prestigious schools.

I already know that in reality these combined programs are a very good option for students who are absolutely certain they want to be a doctor. I'm already in college and will be applying to medical school the standard way. I was just wondering.

While your post is provocative, I think the answer to your question is self-evident. I don't know about you, but plenty of people every year turn down BS/MDs (or don't even apply to them in the first place), because they emphasize prestige and want to take their shot. While I am sure this is not your intent, it feels a little like trolling to throw this out here and solicit a reaction from these people, as though people who never considered BS/MDs in the first place because they are shooting for T20 are going to say a med school guarantee at ANY med school is worth its weight in gold.

Bottom line -- sure, some people feel this way. Things work out for some of them while others are destined for multiple reapplications, "settling" for the very schools they turned their noses up at a few years before, or finding themselves weeded out and never even making it to an application cycle. Most on SDN do not think like this, and would grab a guaranteed acceptance to a MD program in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. OTOH, you are already a premed who is not in a BS/MD program, so why is this even relevant to you?

 

[deleted1025488]

OTOH, you are already a premed who is not in a BS/MD program, so why is this even relevant to you?

Lol, OP is the same guy who made this post ( Why go to a top medical school? ) and clearly already has...strong opinions.

Anyways, OP, for the love of all that is holy please do not continue on this gunner tirade of t5 or bust. Literally no one will like you, you'll just be in a terrible mental state during undergrad, and all for nothing since @Shorjand_U is 100% right in saying that the top percentile at most MD can match into any specialty with little difficulty.

Also, I'm pretty sure Baylor has a BS/MD and is a T20 with a top tier match list. Brown isn't a T20 but is an excellent school with a BS/MD program. The logic of "turning it down for a chance at T5" is dumbfounded and egotistical. There's absolutely no point. The endpoint will be completely the same.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Lol, OP is the same guy who made this post ( Why go to a top medical school? ) and clearly already has...strong opinions.

Thanks for the alert 🙂 OP, Most of these BSMD programs cost around $1/2M and good for those who wants to be on cruise control.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

I completely understand and agree with your point. However, if you're not already aware, many people, especially on SDN, emphasize that prestige of the medical school is very important for residency matching, even though in reality it is not, at least not that much. So since according to those people going to a "lower-tier" school will be hurtful, I was wondering from their perspective if that means that students who go to one of these combined programs are destined to have a hard time in advancing in their medical career since none of these programs are affiliated with very prestigious schools.

I already know that in reality these combined programs are a very good option for students who are absolutely certain they want to be a doctor. I'm already in college and will be applying to medical school the standard way. I was just wondering.

I’ve seen students that have gotten accepted to BS/MD turn the offer down in order to shoot for a more prestigious school from an Ivy league. Issue is that there is zero guarantee that you will do well in an Ivy league, or will do well on the MCAT, or will find good enough research, or good enough extracurriculars etc to break into a T10 school. There are people who simply unable to make it over 510 on the MCAT. Are you 100% sure that YOU can beat every single odd and make it to a top school? Are you 100% sure that going to a top school will be worth the extra stress during undergrad? Chances are, you aren’t.

 

[Damson]

I’ve seen students that have gotten accepted to BS/MD turn the offer down in order to shoot for a more prestigious school from an Ivy league. Issue is that there is zero guarantee that you will do well in an Ivy league, or will do well on the MCAT, or will find good enough research, or good enough extracurriculars etc to break into a T10 school. There are people who simply unable to make it over 510 on the MCAT. Are you 100% sure that YOU can beat every single odd and make it to a top school? Are you 100% sure that going to a top school will be worth the extra stress during undergrad? Chances are, you aren’t.

I agree with everything said here, because
- your individual grades are controlled by individual professors. you get to control the effort you put into the class and do the best you can. but at the end of the day you don't know what they're gonna put on the test and how they're gonna grade ya, x4~6 different professors every semester you need to adjust to
- must cut out some time doing extracurriculars and volunteering unrelated to medicine
- must do well on MCAT. I disagree with arguments against BS/MDs along the lines of "but if you can't pass the MCAT how can you pass the USMLE bro"; the percentiles you have to score to get into medicine vs. get into residency is different. if you score above 50th percentile on MCAT you should be able to get in somewhere, if you score above 6th percentile on USMLE you still pass and can apply for match.
- bro the application fees and interview costs with no guarantee of getting accepted

All in all, @preMedFalcon if you get a seat in BS/MD programs, strongly consider taking it
preferably get into a program that waives the MCAT

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I’ve seen students that have gotten accepted to BS/MD turn the offer down in order to shoot for a more prestigious school from an Ivy league. Issue is that there is zero guarantee that you will do well in an Ivy league, or will do well on the MCAT, or will find good enough research, or good enough extracurriculars etc to break into a T10 school. There are people who simply unable to make it over 510 on the MCAT. Are you 100% sure that YOU can beat every single odd and make it to a top school? Are you 100% sure that going to a top school will be worth the extra stress during undergrad? Chances are, you aren’t.

I know couple of students (including my kid) who turned down good BSMD programs and ended up with multiple T5s. So it's doable with good planning and work ethic. Most BSMD admits have near perfect stats in HS so I don't think MCAT will be an issue.

 

[deleted1080380]

I know couple of students (including my kid) who turned down good BSMD programs and ended up with multiple T5s. So it's doable with good planning and work ethic. Most BSMD admits have near perfect stats in HS so I don't think MCAT will be an issue.

I mean the point at least I was trying to make is that it literally doesn't matter. Your match prospects from Baylor are exactly the same as Harvard. Even if you still 'can' get a high GPA, good MCATs, nothing outweighs the literal zero stress from having to maintain the often borderline superfluous 'requirements' that simply require you to be a normal student. As I mentioned, you'll have 4 years to network at said MD, research, etc. which will put you ahead of T5's MDs easily.

On top of that, the reason these students are capable of turning down BS/MDs and 'aim higher' is the exact reason why they do. BS/MDs are probably one of the most SES skewed programs in existence (for high scoolers). The vast majority are rich students with physician parents (hence knowing about them). When I was applying, the requirements were stringent, often immediately disqualifying almost all students (including me) with their 3 SAT Subject Test requirements, excessive LoR, other clearly filter-like requirements that added nothing.... Most of these programs, at the time of me applying, were almost 100% white/asian as well.

Not sure if you fall into that category @preMedFalcon but keep that in mind, as you are applying and if you manage to get in. Also not sure about @EdgeTrimmer or his kid, but I get the feeling they fall into the category I listed, especially considering how much free time @EdgeTrimmer has to be on SDN 😛

I don't think my parents even knew what a BS was not to mention a BS/MD.

 

[KnightDoc]

Not sure if you fall into that category @preMedFalcon but keep that in mind, as you are applying and if you manage to get in. Also not sure about @EdgeTrimmer or his kid, but I get the feeling they fall into the category I listed, especially considering how much free time @EdgeTrimmer has to be on SDN 😛

I don't think my parents even knew what a BS was not to mention a BS/MD.

FWIW - OP is not applying or getting in. As he stated, "I'm already in college and will be applying to medical school the standard way. I was just wondering."

 

[deleted1080380]

FWIW - OP is not applying or getting in. As he stated, "I'm already in college and will be applying to medical school the standard way. I was just wondering."

Why does this thread exist then lmao. I thought this kid was a high schooler. Who thinks about hypotheticals like this while in college???

 

[KnightDoc]

Why does this thread exist then lmao. I thought this kid was a high schooler. Who thinks about hypotheticals like this while in college???

You're right. It looks like just a backdoor vehicle to get the usual suspects talking about the value of prestige and guarantees. As @joe32 helpfully pointed out, it's an adjunct to a thread OP started on a related topic a few weeks ago. Go back and look at my Post #6 on this thread! 🙂

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I mean the point at least I was trying to make is that it literally doesn't matter. Your match prospects from Baylor are exactly the same as Harvard. Even if you still 'can' get a high GPA, good MCATs, nothing outweighs the literal zero stress from having to maintain the often borderline superfluous 'requirements' that simply require you to be a normal student. As I mentioned, you'll have 4 years to network at said MD, research, etc. which will put you ahead of T5's MDs easily.

On top of that, the reason these students are capable of turning down BS/MDs and 'aim higher' is the exact reason why they do. BS/MDs are probably one of the most SES skewed programs in existence (for high scoolers). The vast majority are rich students with physician parents (hence knowing about them). When I was applying, the requirements were stringent, often immediately disqualifying almost all students (including me) with their 3 SAT Subject Test requirements, excessive LoR, other clearly filter-like requirements that added nothing.... Most of these programs, at the time of me applying, were almost 100% white/asian as well.

Not sure if you fall into that category @preMedFalcon but keep that in mind, as you are applying and if you manage to get in. Also not sure about @EdgeTrimmer or his kid, but I get the feeling they fall into the category I listed, especially considering how much free time @EdgeTrimmer has to be on SDN 😛

I don't think my parents even knew what a BS was not to mention a BS/MD.

Yes BSMD program applicants are mostly Asians (18 of 20 I noticed at interviews 4 years back were Asians) but not everyone of them have physician parents. However those who don't have parent physicians have relatives or family friends who can help them get the volunteering or research experiences needed. Also, as I said before they are willing to spend whatever it takes to get them into medical college. I am in front of my laptop 12+ hrs a day and SDN is more fun than TV 🙂

 

[differentiating]

I was in a B/MD program back in the day, although the program I was in no longer exists. It wasn't accelerated, and most importantly, allowed for applying out to other programs without losing your spot at the MD school should you not get other acceptances. Having that guaranteed acceptance to med school was very reassuring and made my college experience less stressful, though I did eventually apply out and leave to go to a med school I preferred more.

Plus, it helped that I had a scholarship for the undergrad that cut the cost in half, so it was comparable or cheaper than my other options for those years.

 

[LizzyM]

I do think that it is worth it for the applicant who knows that they want a career in medicine and who don't want the pressure to perform in undergrad at the level needed to get into med school these days. There is also more flexibility in terms of taking challenging classes that could tank your GPA but that are okay when you need a 3.5 and not a 3.9 to go forward. The savings in not having to take the MCAT (some of the time, some schools do require it) and not have to apply to dozens of schools and pay secondary fees and expenses related to interviews (minimal now that those are often virtual) is nice but you lose out sometimes on merit money that gets thrown around to top prospects.

The lack of diversity in these programs and the immaturity of some of the candidates have made the programs "not worth it" for some medical schools resulting in cancellation or drastic reduction in the size of the programs.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I do think that it is worth it for the applicant who knows that they want a career in medicine and who don't want the pressure to perform in undergrad at the level needed to get into med school these days. There is also more flexibility in terms of taking challenging classes that could tank your GPA but that are okay when you need a 3.5 and not a 3.9 to go forward. The savings in not having to take the MCAT (some of the time, some schools do require it) and not have to apply to dozens of schools and pay secondary fees and expenses related to interviews (minimal now that those are often virtual) is nice but you lose out sometimes on merit money that gets thrown around to top prospects.

The lack of diversity in these programs and the immaturity of some of the candidates have made the programs "not worth it" for some medical schools resulting in cancellation or drastic reduction in the size of the programs.

In reality, having observed few kids in those programs, not sure how many really go for challenging courses or explore other areas. Most of them seems to relax and take easier classes to match the GPA requirement and no enthusiasm for ECs since they spent too much time in HS with ECs. yes, UPitt, Baylor are the two top programs and their intake is 10 and 6. Only big program is Brown (but they are not T20 as per USnooze). NorthWestern and WashU cancelled recently.

As per the diversity, medical schools can balance the diversity with remaining 90% admissions thru traditional path and rake up $$$s from the overeager ORM parents 🙂

 

[preMedFalcon]

Almost every single state school, ranked all the way from 10 to 60, have great residencies in all areas including competitive ones like ortho, derm, etc. These schools love to take from their own students. Essentially if you're at the top of your class at any decent MD you can match into any specialty (w good scores, etc. obviously), but not anywhere*

Realistically every school ranked 1-40 (with exceptions depending on school focus) seems to send 5-6 people to ortho, 3-4 to derm, etc. with minor variations. True, state students are more likely to match at the state programs, and HMS to massgen, but at the end of the day it's the exact same thing...in fact the people at the mega research hospitals will probably be making less in the future.

Like seriously I don't think people on this forumn really grasp the notion that these high ranked research schools will really only put you a foot ahead if you plan on doing academic medicine, which 95% of people want nothing to do with when they realize what it entails but instead blindly are attracted to because of pResTigE.

Also, back to the original point, there are still plenty of BSMDs in T20-30s, so I don't really see your problem here. If you're actually t5 or bust then there's no hope. The point about luck and variability still stands.

Thank you for speaking reality.

Having a guaranteed acceptance for MD is a much better chance at residency matching than any optimistic hope or dream that you will eventually you will beat the odds and get into top medical school and that will magically lead to a better residency.

Thank you for speaking reality.

While your post is provocative, I think the answer to your question is self-evident. I don't know about you, but plenty of people every year turn down BS/MDs (or don't even apply to them in the first place), because they emphasize prestige and want to take their shot. While I am sure this is not your intent, it feels a little like trolling to throw this out here and solicit a reaction from these people, as though people who never considered BS/MDs in the first place because they are shooting for T20 are going to say a med school guarantee at ANY med school is worth its weight in gold.

Bottom line -- sure, some people feel this way. Things work out for some of them while others are destined for multiple reapplications, "settling" for the very schools they turned their noses up at a few years before, or finding themselves weeded out and never even making it to an application cycle. Most on SDN do not think like this, and would grab a guaranteed acceptance to a MD program in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. OTOH, you are already a premed who is not in a BS/MD program, so why is this even relevant to you?

I tried to make it clear why I made this post even though I'm already in pre-med. All you have to do is read it carefully, but if you still don't understand, then I'm sorry. And you're right that my intent was not to make a troll, and I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but my apologies.

Lol, OP is the same guy who made this post ( Why go to a top medical school? ) and clearly already has...strong opinions.

Anyways, OP, for the love of all that is holy please do not continue on this gunner tirade of t5 or bust. Literally no one will like you, you'll just be in a terrible mental state during undergrad, and all for nothing since @Shorjand_U is 100% right in saying that the top percentile at most MD can match into any specialty with little difficulty.

Also, I'm pretty sure Baylor has a BS/MD and is a T20 with a top tier match list. Brown isn't a T20 but is an excellent school with a BS/MD program. The logic of "turning it down for a chance at T5" is dumbfounded and egotistical. There's absolutely no point. The endpoint will be completely the same.

Funny how you bring that up lol. But after that thread was closed, I realized I never mentioned this and was very curious to see what they would have said. So my only option was to create another post. That is all. But it's nice to see that a lot of people know how reality works.

I’ve seen students that have gotten accepted to BS/MD turn the offer down in order to shoot for a more prestigious school from an Ivy league. Issue is that there is zero guarantee that you will do well in an Ivy league, or will do well on the MCAT, or will find good enough research, or good enough extracurriculars etc to break into a T10 school. There are people who simply unable to make it over 510 on the MCAT. Are you 100% sure that YOU can beat every single odd and make it to a top school? Are you 100% sure that going to a top school will be worth the extra stress during undergrad? Chances are, you aren’t.

Thank you for speaking reality.

All in all, @preMedFalcon if you get a seat in BS/MD programs, strongly consider taking it
preferably get into a program that waives the MCAT

I'm already in pre-med. I already explained why I created this post even though it is irrelevant to me. All you have to do is read it carefully, but if you still don't understand, then I'm sorry.

You're right. It looks like just a backdoor vehicle to get the usual suspects talking about the value of prestige and guarantees. As @joe32 helpfully pointed out, it's an adjunct to a thread OP started on a related topic a few weeks ago. Go back and look at my Post #6 on this thread! 🙂

Yes I started the post ( Why go to a top medical school? ). When I saw that practically everyone emphasized that prestige is one of the most important factors for residency matching, I realized that I should have mentioned this also to see what they would say. Since the thread was closed, I had to create another post instead.

I myself don't believe in the importance of prestige, because that's literally how reality works (it's not that important). However, I do find it comical and a problem on how many are determined to believe and argue otherwise. At the end of the day, people can believe what they want.

And I'll definitely have to think twice before starting another thread on a similar topic. Lesson learned.

 

[deleted1025488]

Dood the first thread you made was you rioting in defense of your 'prestige has zero impact' tirade.

This thread is completely different. The good BS/MDs are probably harder to get into than a t10 medical school. What are you even trying to prove.

 

[Fano]

Dood the first thread you made was you rioting in defense of your 'prestige has zero impact' tirade.

This thread is completely different. The good BS/MDs are probably harder to get into than a t10 medical school. What are you even trying to prove.

Thank you for speaking reality.

 

[gyngyn]

The lack of diversity in these programs and the immaturity of some of the candidates have made the programs "not worth it" for some medical schools resulting in cancellation or drastic reduction in the size of the programs.

When I saw the title, this is exactly what I thought.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

N=1, but I chose full tuition scholarship vs bsmd vs HYPS and subsequently got full ride merit scholarship to top 10 med school.
From my perspective, high stat applicants from high school are better off chasing merit aid (unless merit aid won't matter to them)

Exactly, my kid did same, but he didn't get full ride for medical but substantial merit at T5. Congratulations!

 

[preMedFalcon]

Dood the first thread you made was you rioting in defense of your 'prestige has zero impact' tirade.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that I never argued that prestige has zero impact. I argued that prestige has little impact. And that's not me "rioting" or having a "strong opinion". That's literally how reality works.

What are you even trying to prove.

Absolutely nothing. But it's obvious that what I'm trying to say is way too complicated for you to understand, so it was obviously a mistake to make this post. Lesson learned.

 

[deleted1080380]

Absolutely nothing. But it's obvious that what I'm trying to say is way too complicated for you to understand, so it was obviously a mistake to make this post. Lesson learned.

Aren't you like 17? Better freshen this attitude up during undergrad because otherwise you wont have to worry about prestige because no school will want you.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Aren't you like 17? Better freshen this attitude up during undergrad because otherwise you wont have to worry about prestige because no school will want you.

No actually I'm about to finish my bachelor's, but thank you for your concern. I appreciate it. But at least I'm willing to accept and admit my failures and mistakes and admit when I'm in the wrong. OTOH, I don't know what "attitude" you're referring to, but you clearly do have an attitude of wanting to be the tough guy who's always right. Better freshen up that attitude before you apply to med school, and especially before your interview. I can guarantee you no school will want you.

 

[KnightDoc]

I will just add one fact all this that BS/MD students have the highest attrition rate amongst all medical students nearly 4.8% and that is after the BS. These are people who formally leave medical school. This is compared to the overall rate that has been steady at 3.3% for severalyears . And of that majority leaves for non-academic reasons. I don’t have any data but I would speculate the additional attrition rate among the BS/MD may be That the desire to be a physician at the end of high school is not there when finally getting to medical school I think the four years of maturity does a lot

In other words, lessening of parental influence over time! 😎

 

[efle]

N=1, but I chose full tuition scholarship vs bsmd vs HYPS and subsequently got full ride merit scholarship to top 10 med school.
From my perspective, high stat applicants from high school are better off chasing merit aid (unless merit aid won't matter to them)

Exactly, my kid did same, but he didn't get full ride for medical but substantial merit at T5. Congratulations!

Make it n=3, keep your options open. If I had applied early decision to my favorite college and gotten in, I would have missed full aid packages from similar colleges. If I had been BS/MD instead of normal premed, I would have missed full aid packages to similar med schools. If it was my younger sibling facing this choice I'd tell them the peace of mind ("cruise control" premed like you put it) isn't worth the potential pricetag of tens or hundreds of thousands more.

 

[deleted1080380]

No actually I'm about to finish my bachelor's, but thank you for your concern. I appreciate it. But at least I'm willing to accept and admit my failures and mistakes and admit when I'm in the wrong. OTOH, I don't know what "attitude" you're referring to, but you clearly do have an attitude of wanting to be the tough guy who's always right. Better freshen up that attitude before you apply to med school, and especially before your interview. I can guarantee you no school will want you.

Admit what? You've literally made 2 threads that are just vehicles to talk about prestige when literally no one cares. It just sounds like you are trying to lessen the blow if and when you don't get into a prestigious MD by having a bunch of random people on the internet tell you it doesn't matter. Also per your other thread, you claim people suggest that you need a t10 degree to get into a competitive specialty, which no one has ever said.

Also if you want to know who is right, just look at your other post. You managed to have a 100+ comment thread where not one person agreed with you, yet you were still headstrong with your opinions. Lol.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

In other words, lessening of parental influence over time! 😎

I think beyond that, college is a major kick in the ass in terms of maturity, independence etc. Some people take it well, others like myself far less so (see signature). The transition from high school to college was rough on me, transitioning from high school to medical school would be insane (even if I did apply myself more in high school). Having helped someone with BS/MD application who ended up going to a HYSP to now be unsure about even doing medicine, I am pretty happy that they made the correct decision of not committing to something as insane as the medical profession at the age of 18. Hell, how many of these kids are going to be going into this decision at 16 or 17. I am surprised the attrition rate isn't a lot higher.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I am surprised the attrition rate isn't a lot higher.

because of helicopter/tiger parents 😎 on serious note GPA/MCAT requirements are not high and no EC pressure i.e. cruise control mode.

 

[differentiating]

I will just add one fact all this that BS/MD students have the highest attrition rate amongst all medical students nearly 4.8% and that is after the BS. These are people who formally leave medical school. This is compared to the overall rate that has been steady at 3.3% for severalyears . And of that majority leaves for non-academic reasons. I don’t have any data but I would speculate the additional attrition rate among the BS/MD may be That the desire to be a physician at the end of high school is not there when finally getting to medical school I think the four years of maturity does a lot

Yeah, my program was cancelled because only a third of students actually stayed in the program from matriculation in college to med school graduation. The "top" 1/3 applied out and went to alternate med schools, the middle 1/3 coasted in undergrad to meet minimum requirements (3.5 s/cGPA, 27 MCAT) and stayed through med school, and the "bottom" 1/3 either dropped out in undergrad to pursue alternate careers, failed to meet matriculation requirements for the med school, or dropped out in med school for alternate careers.

The med school felt that those of us who remained were dragging down their numbers, and the undergrad didn't feel like it needed the program as a recruitment tool any longer, so the program was ended.

 

[preMedFalcon]

It just sounds like you are trying to lessen the blow if and when you don't get into a prestigious MD by having a bunch of random people on the internet tell you it doesn't matter.

I don't need "a bunch of random people on the internet tell [me] it doesn't matter", because I already know that it doesn't. The internet is full of prestige-obsessed and biased people, many of whom replied to my other thread. I am not "trying to lessen the blow if and when I don't get into a prestigious MD", because although I am aiming to go to one and still have every possible opportunity to make it, I know I can still go to any other MD school and still go to any specialty I want. Thousands do it successfully every year which proves this is correct. Yes, I'm trying to lesson the blow so I won't feel sad about not being able to feel special about myself. LOL

By the way, I've tried to find doctors online solely based on what med school they went to, and it's practically impossible. Just saying. Also, I have not been able to find a single residency program in a super competitive specialty with residents who only graduated from prestigious schools.

There is not a single prestigious MD school or prestigious residency program that supports that prestige is important, and yet everyone's best defense against that was that the schools are lying. What a joke.

Also if you want to know who is right, just look at your other post. You managed to have a 100+ comment thread where not one person agreed with you, yet you were still headstrong with your opinions. Lol.

Yes, and this is because the vast majority of the responses were from prestige-obsessed and biased people who are obviously going to argue in favor of the prestigious schools. And it's clear that you are one of them. However, the system works the way it does, and it doesn't care what you, those 100+ comments, or I think about it. It's just the way it is. I'd rather believe the facts and reality. You can do what you want.

Also per your other thread, you claim people suggest that you need a t10 degree to get into a competitive specialty, which no one has ever said

You are right, no one said that directly, but that's essentially what everyone emphasized.

At the end of the day, sure, I just want to make myself feel better just in case I don't get into a prestigious MD school. If that's the conclusion you're trying to make, then sure, why not, whatever you say boss.

 

[deleted1080380]

because I already know that it doesn't

Then why are you here.

And it's clear that you are one of them.

Bud look at my first comment on this post I literally said it doesn't matter unless you are trying to match into a t10 hospital.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Then why are you here.

Because I was genuinely wondering what the purpose was of going to a prestigious MD school while already knowing that prestige it's not that important for residency matching. But when people starting emphasizing that it IS important, I just wanted to correct them. Clearly that was a huge mistake. This post is just another point that I should've brought up in that other post, which was clearly another big mistake.

Bud look at my first comment on this post I literally said it doesn't matter.

So you agree that the people in the "100+ comment thread where not one person agreed with [me]" are wrong? (Which btw a few people did actually agree with me, just saying).

And when you said prestige "doesn't matter unless you are trying to match into a t10 hospital", even so it still won't matter. Thousands of applicants successfully match into t10 hospitals every year from "lower tier" schools without a problem. Prestige may matter a little more, but it still remans low on the list of important factors. What you said is just factually incorrect. Just accept it.

From what I've researched, it seems that only neurosurgery residencies at the most highest ranked hospitals seem to favor applicants from more prestigious MD schools, and I say that because only these programs have the vast majority of residents from prestigious schools, but still have a few from "lower-tier" schools. However, this could just be coincidental rather than intentional.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

because of helicopter/tiger parents 😎 on serious note GPA/MCAT requirements are not high and no EC pressure i.e. cruise control mode.

This is becoming off topic but an interesting tiger parents story nonetheless.

Was volunteering as an EMT in my town when we got dispatched for a double suicide. Get there to see very pissed off cops cursing out a dad. Turns out after their daughter got a low grade on a gen bio exam, the dad decided to call her expressing his disappointment, ending the call with "Your mother killed herself because of your failure, and I am killing myself next." I am sure your daughter is gonna do great with this kind of pressure. At least we sent them a hefty bill.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Because I was genuinely wondering what the purpose was of going to a prestigious MD school while already knowing that prestige it's not that important for residency matching. But when people starting emphasizing that it IS important, I just wanted to correct them. Clearly that was a huge mistake. This post is just another point that I should've brought up in that other post, which was clearly another big mistake.

So you agree that the people in the "100+ comment thread where not one person agreed with [me]" are wrong? (Which btw a few people did actually agree with me, just saying).

Prestige matters for matching to a specific residency program (I.E. matching to Mass Gen IM), which is important if you want to do academics. Prestige matters far less for matching to a specialty, especially less so if you have zero interest in academics. There are of course the benefits of more influential connections, better name recognition etc.

Most importantly prestige allows you to never shut the **** up about going to Best Medical School. Point is, going to a prestigious school helps and opens doors to more opportunities. Going to a low ranked MD however won't close doors to pretty much anything with sufficient effort.

 

[KnightDoc]

I think beyond that, college is a major kick in the ass in terms of maturity, independence etc. Some people take it well, others like myself far less so (see signature). The transition from high school to college was rough on me, transitioning from high school to medical school would be insane (even if I did apply myself more in high school). Having helped someone with BS/MD application who ended up going to a HYSP to now be unsure about even doing medicine, I am pretty happy that they made the correct decision of not committing to something as insane as the medical profession at the age of 18. Hell, how many of these kids are going to be going into this decision at 16 or 17. I am surprised the attrition rate isn't a lot higher.

Just keep in mind, the attrition rate @gonnif is referring to is NOT dropping out of a BS/MD program while in UG -- it's dropping out of the MD part once med school begins. If for other than academic reasons, I think it is largely because they were pressured into it age 14, 15, 17. whatever, and the maturation that comes naturally to most with age, plus the reality of what a career in medicine entails, finally empowers a disproportionate number of these students to finally stand up to their parents and take control of their lives, as opposed to the regular admit students, many of whom did not have the same level of parental pressure.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Prestige matters for matching to a specific residency program (I.E. matching to Mass Gen IM), which is important if you want to do academics. Prestige matters far less for matching to a specialty, especially less so if you have zero interest in academics. There are of course the benefits of more influential connections, better name recognition etc.

Most importantly prestige allows you to never shut the **** up about going to Best Medical School. Point is, going to a prestigious school helps and opens doors to more opportunities. Going to a low ranked MD however won't close doors to pretty much anything with sufficient effort.

See, now everything you said is 100% correct. Yes, prestigious schools have advantageous resources and will give you a step up if you want to go to academics and for networking, etc. However, not everyone has a perfect life to go to such a school, but even so, not going to one doesn't mean you can't still open those doors and make those connections. There may be certain programs that will care about prestige, that's just how it is, but overall, it doesn't matter if you just want to practice medicine.

 

[Goro]

This is becoming off topic but an interesting tiger parents story nonetheless.

Was volunteering as an EMT in my town when we got dispatched for a double suicide. Get there to see very pissed off cops cursing out a dad. Turns out after their daughter got a low grade on a gen bio exam, the dad decided to call her expressing his disappointment, ending the call with "Your mother killed herself because of your failure, and I am killing myself next." I am sure your daughter is gonna do great with this kind of pressure. At least we sent them a hefty bill.

Never underestimate the harm that is done by Tiger Parents!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Never underestimate the harm that is done by Tiger Parents!

Never overestimate the number of Tiger parents 🙂

 

[Ivoriangirl04]

If I would have known about BS/MD program last in high school I would have done it. If you have an acceptance go for it! Guess what you’ll have kinda less stress and you’ll start med school earlier and finish earlier. Sounds like a win win to me.

 

[aurevoir0711]

It's hard to imagine what medical school is like until you attend one. You will be amazed at how many talented people there are, wherever you go. You may no longer be a "super star" and barely strive to hit the average. Don't disregard any words that people who have been through this are sharing with you.

 

[dnyal]

Going by prestige is, in my opinion, a great way to set yourself for failure. Like some have already said, some people have the misguided idea of getting into top twenty or bust. This lead many pre-meds to put together disastrous school lists where they’ll be applying. I bet the majority of them are the ones with >90% GPA/MCAT who won’t get in, among other reasons.

Medical schools in the U.S. have such high standards of accreditation and acceptance that you simply can’t go wrong. Even the "lowest tier" American med school graduates beat applicants from the Caribbean ones! Moreover, unless you’re a big time gunner, over 90% of medical graduates match into a residency, and that’s before SOAP. All physician specialties pay generous salaries, too (some more than others), and it’s widely understood that, outside academia and research, medical school prestige has very little impact on finding a job or on physician income.

So, don’t set yourself up for failure. I do believe there‘s a tendency for "lower" tier schools to have BA/MD and other accelerated programs, probably as a way to lock in talented students and keep them from going to more prestigious schools, and those students will in turn help the school rise its acceptance and USMLE stats. But don’t fall into the prestige trap. Of course, aim higher, but do not discard BA/MD programs as a viable option.

 

[efle]

Going to a big name med school isnt just empty prestige. A huge proportion of students (like 40%) at places like Hopkins, Harvard, UCSF, Stanford, Penn etc match to their home hospitals which are generally very well regarded training. The other half or two thirds that does leave, usually goes to one of the other usual suspects. Often there are very strong ties between them - as an example I know someone essentially guaranteed a spot at their choice t10 neurosurg program because of work they did with department leadership who moved there. Many programs will tell you prestige doesnt matter - the PD surveys do ask about this and show not everyone cares about where you got your degree (though a good chunk do, esp competitive fields). But depending where you want to train, the foot in the door can be very valuable, on top of the other stuff like inflated grading, research resources, and prestige brownie points.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Going by prestige is, in my opinion, a great way to set yourself for failure. Like some have already said, some people have the misguided idea of getting into top twenty or bust. This lead many pre-meds to put together disastrous school lists where they’ll be applying. I bet the majority of them are the ones with >90% GPA/MCAT who won’t get in, among other reasons.

Medical schools in the U.S. have such high standards of accreditation and acceptance that you simply can’t go wrong. Even the "lowest tier" American med school graduates beat applicants from the Caribbean ones! Moreover, unless you’re a big time gunner, over 90% of medical graduates match into a residency, and that’s before SOAP. All physician specialties pay generous salaries, too (some more than others), and it’s widely understood that, outside academia and research, medical school prestige has very little impact on finding a job or on physician income.

So, don’t set yourself up for failure. I do believe there‘s a tendency for "lower" tier schools to have BA/MD and other accelerated programs, probably as a way to lock in talented students and keep them from going to more prestigious schools, and those students will in turn help the school rise its acceptance and USMLE stats. But don’t fall into the prestige trap. Of course, aim higher, but do not discard BA/MD programs as a viable option.

It comes down to knowing your strengths and weaknesses and setting goals accordingly. Nothing wrong with aiming for T20 but at the same time one should be aware of randomness of the process and also overestimating the strength of the ECs.

 

[Lucca]

didnt read thread besides op but in general I'm of the mind that any student capable of getting into a BS/MD program this day and age is more than capable of getting into medical school and the BS/MD takes away the only benefit I can think of of doing undergrad before med school: having time, flexibility, and opportunities to explore a variety of careers and options. BS/MD programs are an excellent deal for the medical schools and generally a very bad deal for students, IMO.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

didnt read thread besides op but in general I'm of the mind that any student capable of getting into a BS/MD program this day and age is more than capable of getting into medical school and the BS/MD takes away the only benefit I can think of of doing undergrad before med school: having time, flexibility, and opportunities to explore a variety of careers and options. BS/MD programs are an excellent deal for the medical schools and generally a very bad deal for students, IMO.

Those are the exact reasons my kid came up (plus free tuition for UG) 4 years despite everyone telling him to take T30 BSMD. Also, didn't want to give up on a chance to get medical school scholarships with more and more schools offering them.

 

[efle]

didnt read thread besides op but in general I'm of the mind that any student capable of getting into a BS/MD program this day and age is more than capable of getting into medical school and the BS/MD takes away the only benefit I can think of of doing undergrad before med school: having time, flexibility, and opportunities to explore a variety of careers and options. BS/MD programs are an excellent deal for the medical schools and generally a very bad deal for students, IMO.

Yep it's colleges using fear of failing to get in the traditional way to lock in talent early. Usually at sticker price that tiger parents are happy to pay. I dont understand how anyone views these programs any other way. They usually even have GPA and MCAT requirements that are only slightly looser than their usual admits. If a school is willing to conditionally admit you to their MD program as a 17 year old, why on earth would you bet against yourself being an attractive applicant at 21?

Pay us lots of money, and give up any chance at having better choices, for an empty sense of security. Does not compute for me.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yep it's colleges using fear of failing to get in the traditional way to lock in talent early. Usually at sticker price that tiger parents are happy to pay. I dont understand how anyone views these programs any other way. They usually even have GPA and MCAT requirements that are only slightly looser than their usual admits. If a school is willing to conditionally admit you to their MD program as a 17 year old, why on earth would you bet against yourself being an attractive applicant at 21?

Pay us lots of money, and give up any chance at having better choices, for an empty sense of security. Does not compute for me.

Simple reason, ORM parents hear about lot of smart kids (based on HS stats) not getting into medical schools without gap years and most BSMDs save 1 year. so 1 year MD salary and plus additional gap year salary loss justifies the cost of BSMD. Also, they hear same arguments prestige won't help with making more money,