Are DPM residencies "easier" than MD/DO residencies?

[Robin-jay]

Same as the title.

I've heard this, but I'm curious because residency already seems extremely stressful and time consuming. I'm doing externships, and residency looks unbelievably tiring. Clinic is tiring as a 4th year.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a residency with more decent hours, less academics, and less focus on complex surgeries.

I just want a 40-50 hour a week career where I can live without massive stress.

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[Feli]

Yes.

 

[AttackNME]

Most of us wouldn’t know, we didn’t do an MD/DO residency. I know what you’re getting at but what a crappy generalized question. It’s impossible to answer

 

[Robin-jay]

Most of us wouldn’t know, we didn’t do an MD/DO residency. I know what you’re getting at but what a crappy generalized question. It’s impossible to answer

To elaborate, I'm getting tired at externships alone, and so I'm getting worried about residency because thats even much busier.

But also, I think it's the fact I'm also not getting paid, and it's been forever since I've actually been paid for labor, so that might make the work as a resident more appealing.

 

[Hybrocure]

Pod residences are easier but less regulated. I’ve talked about it before, but many programs don’t adhere to work hour limits because overnight/home call for some reason doesn’t factor into that calculation.You can be guilted into doing literally a full month or more of 24 hours straight every day with overnight call from home with no day off at some residencies.

From my experience MD/DO residencies have real hour restrictions. That being said, for ED and Gen Surg/Vasc (can’t speak to ortho since I didn’t rotate w ortho residents just attendings). It was very hardcore for the hours you worked. Internal Medicine was once you leave the hospital you’re a ghost.

 

[Feli]

Most of us wouldn’t know, we didn’t do an MD/DO residency. I know what you’re getting at but what a crappy generalized question. It’s impossible to answer

Yeah, it's impossible to truly compare... but if you train in a big hospital side by side with a dozen MD residency and fellowship programs and hundreds of residents, you get a pretty good idea during those rotations and just from talking and partying with MD residents.

For example, while I might think some first year pod on-call and rounding months or maybe my trauma surg month were hard, those were not even an average month for a surgery prelim or pgy2 ER resident or pgy1 ortho in terms of hours or difficulty. My academics schedule and research reqs were not non-existent, but they were less than most MD programs. And while this was a fairly good hospital for most of the MD residencies, it was definitely no Mayo Clinic or Stanford in terms of competitiveness and pubs or advanced trauma/cases.

Also, my program had a rep for being fairly reasonable (relative to other high volume surgery DPM residencies) for female residents doing maternity time off during residency and still graduating on time because we had the volume for them to make it up before/after. For MD programs, that pregnancy often meant adding another year of residency or even switching to a more lax program (ER to FP, gen surg to path, gen surg to IM, etc... saw it happen, multiple times).

...and mine was one of the better DPM residencies there is (surg volume, academics, board qual pass ABFAS rates, historic alumni job/practice results, etc). So, if I can say that most months were significantly easier than the average MD programs at the same facility and it was more conducive to residents taking leave, I think it's safe to say that Baylor ortho or Mass Gen int med or Hopkins plastics probably outworks 99% of DPM programs by a fair margin.

 

[PeaJay]

It is an apple to orange comparison. Easier in that we do not treat the whole body… sure. In the grand scheme of things I would argue that it is different, but just as hard if you go to a well rounded residency.

As an example, OMFS are commonly DDS and don’t necessarily treat the whole body, but their training/residency is no walk in the park. As part of the knife and gun club they are in the ER every night doing something.

 

[Shiyuan]

Gun for the country club programs.

Only problem there is your training will be sub-par to many other, better/harder working programs.

 

[AttackNME]

@Robin-jay your stress may come from high expectations during your rotations and being underprepared by the school. That’s what I felt especially in medicine, and some externships that did a lot of ex fix and recons, I didn’t get into details on dynamization and safe zones in school but you just roll with the punches and learn. Schools don’t teach you everything

 

[Utvolsdpm]

The correct answer is - it depends

 

[Pronation]

Yes

 

[Shiyuan]

I had to get up at 4:30am every morning to get to daily academics at our main hospital which started at 5:30am (I lived about 45 min away). I then drived all around to various hospitals / surgery centers for cases or rotations. Got home around 5-8pmish... every weekday (call was worse if it involved weekends). I typically went through a tank of gas a day.

However... I got awesome training. Great off-service rotations. I can confidently treat anything that comes in.

So, I guess I recant my previous statement. Avoid country club programs. Suck it up and get great training elsewhere. It’s only 3 years. When you’re out in practice you’ll be glad you did.

 

[MortonExtension]

depends on the MD specialty. podiatry residency is easier than general surgery, ortho, vascular surgery

probably harder than psychiatry, dermatology, radiology, pathology, etc.

also just depends on the podiatry program mine was 80-100 hr weeks consistently

 

[Robin-jay]

@Robin-jay your stress may come from high expectations during your rotations and being underprepared by the school. That’s what I felt especially in medicine, and some externships that did a lot of ex fix and recons, I didn’t get into details on dynamization and safe zones in school but you just roll with the punches and learn. Schools don’t teach you everything

Definitely can't argue with being underprepared at the school. It's just I definitely don't feel competent right now in the field. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. And it's a lot.

I had to get up at 4:30am every morning to get to daily academics at our main hospital which started at 5:30am (I lived about 45 min away). I then drived all around to various hospitals / surgery centers for cases or rotations. Got home around 5-8pmish... every weekday (call was worse if it involved weekends). I typically went through a tank of gas a day.

However... I got awesome training. Great off-service rotations. I can confidently treat anything that comes in.

So, I guess I recant my previous statement. Avoid country club programs. Suck it up and get great training elsewhere. It’s only 3 years. When you’re out in practice you’ll be glad you did.

Idk, that kind of sounds miserable to me. Even if the hours aren't horrible...the driving around sounds pretty horrific.

depends on the MD specialty. podiatry residency is easier than general surgery, ortho, vascular surgery

probably harder than psychiatry, dermatology, radiology, pathology, etc.

also just depends on the podiatry program mine was 80-100 hr weeks consistently

I'd rather shoot for a 50-60 hour residency program.

I've worked 80-110 hours in a previous career path and it was pretty atrocious.

 

[Shiyuan]

Idk, that kind of sounds miserable to me. Even if the hours aren't horrible...the driving around sounds pretty horrific.
I'd rather shoot for a 50-60 hour residency program.

The driving was a lot... but I had to live far due to wife’s job being the other direction (we were at a half way point).

Also, my program covered lots of locations/attendings (ortho included), it just happened to be set up that way.

Don’t limit yourself. You want to be as best trained as you can.

 

[Robin-jay]

The driving was a lot... but I had to live far due to wife’s job being the other direction (we were at a half way point).

Also, my program covered lots of locations/attendings (ortho included), it just happened to be set up that way.

Don’t limit yourself. You want to be as best trained as you can.

I've also heard that residencies these days have you work less hours than they did 10+ years ago.

I hear a lot of my resident friends do 12 hour days, but they rarely do more than that. So it levels out closer to 60 hours per week.

For example, externships I have start didactics at 7 am, and the day usually ends around 4-5 pm. And I know there is call, but that's not most weeks.

 

[air bud]

Yes

Also possibly no. But maybe yes

 

[air bud]

None of this matters. You can be really well trained but you have geographic limitations so you are going to have to take a crappy PP job and make 130k after bonus. Then the guy in the back row who ate cheese balls and did a crappy residency is going to go to some rural hospital and make 350k do everything that walks through the door and turn that into a great job in a larger city out earning you and having a greater career....so who care about any of this.

 

[Prehealth1011]

So many variables. Depends on what MD/DO speciality as well. My classmates probably don’t even know Podiatrists do residencies

Also easy vs hard is subjective. I’m IM. If you put me in a FM residency full of clinic time, even with the “better” hours, I would hate my life and find it harder

 

[Robin-jay]

None of this matters. You can be really well trained but you have geographic limitations so you are going to have to take a crappy PP job and make 130k after bonus. Then the guy in the back row who ate cheese balls and did a crappy residency is going to go to some rural hospital and make 350k do everything that walks through the door and turn that into a great job in a larger city out earning you and having a greater career....so who care about any of this.

Geographical limitations based mostly on what? Things like if your SO wants to stay in the area?

Otherwise, the 350k vs 130k job sounds worth going out of ones way...

 

[Shiyuan]

Geographical limitations based mostly on what? Things like if your SO wants to stay in the area?

Otherwise, the 350k vs 130k job sounds worth going out of ones way...

Well worth it to work in BFE for 5 years, pay off loans, then decide if you want to move elsewhere.

 

[Boba Foot]

As most have said, this is very residency-dependent. If you are talking internal medicine MD/DO to pods, then IM MD/DO has the easier residency.

Where I did residency, if you were the overnight resident and had to scrub a late night case you could be owned into late AM, get little sleep and rinse and repeat. In addition if you had to do Saturday 24 hour shift and get a late night or early Sunday AM case or ortho case thrown on you, then you’re screwed. You get no sleep that weekend when you should be banking sleep hours and then you’re exhausted the whole next week. It’s an additive effect and it really ****s with you.

Internal med MD/DO residents have to deal with the late hours but never have to deal with the late night add on cases. They win there.

If you’re talking about MD/DO gen surg residents, they get the worst of the worst, they’re zombies for 5 years and bless their souls. Never be a gen surg resident unless youre masochistic or you just hate sleeping.

 

[newfeet]

Same as the title.

I've heard this, but I'm curious because residency already seems extremely stressful and time consuming. I'm doing externships, and residency looks unbelievably tiring. Clinic is tiring as a 4th year.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a residency with more decent hours, less academics, and less focus on complex surgeries.

I just want a 40-50 hour a week career where I can live without massive stress.

Personally I would say I had a less stressful residency compared to the IM residents at my hospital. We had call but they had to night shifts.

My residency was not academics heavy. We had our podiatry meetings/journal club, we had to attend vascular grand rounds. But that’s it. The IM residents had more academics and they all were trying to get fellowships.

The vascular fellows also had more stressful hours and they ran the grand rounds and were grilled in front of a large audience.

 

[Pronation]

Also possibly no. But maybe yes

Sometimes it really do be like that

 

[Shiyuan]

Sometimes it really do be like that

“Not uncommon” 😂

 

[Weirdy]

Part of the problem is you are stuck in 4th year grind right now. Constantly being evaluated and judged for everything you do.

Residency is hard, but it felt easier to push through compared to 4th year clerkships because of a few variables

1) You are at least earning a pay check
2) You are less focused on impressing and judging people
3) You have room to do your job and do it well
4) What you do, for the most part, matters and directly affects someone downstream such as a patient or your fellow residents/attendings/other departments

Some of residency sucks. It is unavoidable. But I am a firm believer of the harder you train and the more you are exposed to, the more prepared you will be after residency.

TL;DR: Residency is hard, but a different kind of hard. You may feel less pressure compared to 4th year because what you do actually matters, and you have the freedom to do your work without being scrutinized and judged for it compared to a 4th year on a month long tryout.

Don't stress. Keep your head down. Work hard. Residency will not feel the same. It is hard, but it will not feel the same.

 

[Redsting]

My wife read articles and joined Facebook groups for wives of residents after I was accepted. It was nothing compared to what she read. Sure, there were a few late night calls and some rough days on Ortho or Gen Surg etc. but over all it was nothing like what she was expecting.
With that being said, I was up before 5 frequently and there was TONS of meetings for education that was after clinic hours.

 

[Adam Smasher]

@heybrother made a good observation a while back, podiatry residencies have too much work and not enough training. I remember doing suture workshops at 8pm. Also there are the programs where residents do all the dressing changes on patients with chronic foot ulcers. Just put in wound orders for the nurses, it's not called "doctoring a wound" it's called "nursing a wound"

 

[air bud]

@heybrother made a good observation a while back, podiatry residencies have too much work and not enough training. I remember doing suture workshops at 8pm. Also there are the programs where residents do all the dressing changes on patients with chronic foot ulcers. Just put in wound orders for the nurses, it's not called "doctoring a wound" it's called "nursing a wound"

can't agree with this one, that is part of the training and what sets us apart when it comes to woundcare. Its not learning how to change a dressing. Its seeing the progression of wounds, evaluating what works and what doesn't.

 

[Reverdin green]

It’s crazy how Podiatry is berated and thrashed on this forum a lot. During my off service rotation in general surgery at a major teaching hospital, they only did academics 1 hour per week and an hour morning presentations. Rest of time was spent in OR, clinic or rounding. I am sure it’s same at most hospitals. Podiatry is not perfect but let’s appreciate our own a little and respect ourselves if we want others to respect us. It’s funny how MD/DO students fail classes, boards etc but then it happen to Podiatry students, it’s cuz they admit subpar students. Y’all need to grow up from this stupid inferiority complex.

 

[Feli]

can't agree with this one, that is part of the training and what sets us apart when it comes to woundcare. Its not learning how to change a dressing. Its seeing the progression of wounds, evaluating what works and what doesn't.

Yeah, as much as we don't like it, the wound care is the work that's always there for DPMs.

MDs don't want it and/or don't do it very well.

Wounds are what gets DPMs in the door at 95% of hospital jobs... we do the work MDs don't want or mysteriously "just don't have time for." Gen Surg is happy to turf those away. Even at bigger private hospitals or university hospitals, a typical DPM job is 80% wounds and amps... and we all know this. We're only kidding ourselves if we think most of those jobs are primarily elective bone/joint and trauma work. Sometimes there will be nursing help for the wounds and bandaging, but we definitely have to know how to do it also.

In PP, wounds are decent $ and consistent need... other sports/deformity/injury refers are gravy. In ortho or vascular or MSG groups, wounds are a definite need to get in the door, and DPMs introducing offloading brings an element that's helpful. Even in lowly NH or mobile, wound care is a big part to boost collections over just nails and E&Ms.

 

[air bud]

Yeah, as much as we don't like it, the wound care is the work that's always there for DPMs.

MDs don't want it and/or don't do it very well.

Wounds are what gets DPMs in the door at 95% of hospital jobs... we do the work MDs don't want or mysteriously "just don't have time for." Gen Surg is happy to turf those away. Even at bigger private hospitals or university hospitals, a typical DPM job is 80% wounds and amps... and we all know this. We're only kidding ourselves if we think most of those jobs are primarily elective bone/joint and trauma work. Sometimes there will be nursing help for the wounds and bandaging, but we definitely have to know how to do it also.

In PP, wounds are decent $ and consistent need... other sports/deformity/injury refers are gravy. In ortho or vascular or MSG groups, wounds are a definite need to get in the door, and DPMs introducing offloading brings an element that's helpful. Even in lowly NH or mobile, wound care is a big part to boost collections over just nails and E&Ms.

I am more so talking about this in terms of residency training. Once an attending yeah F that .

 

[Shiyuan]

Y’all need to grow up from this stupid inferiority complex.

I’m happy with my DPM degree. But this complex will always be there. Like one of my attendings once put it, “We as podiatrists feel the need to add as many letters after our name since we can’t add “MD” or “DO”.”

 

[newfeet]

I’m happy with my DPM degree. But this complex will always be there. Like one of my attendings once put it, “We as podiatrists feel the need to add as many letters after our name since we can’t add “MD” or “DO”.”

I don't know. MDs and RNs have extra letters being their names too. I feel like we just copy them. For the most part I have refused to be the diplomate or fellow things behind my name. I think it's odd.

 

[dtrack22]

It’s funny how MD/DO students fail classes, boards etc but then it happen to Podiatry students, it’s cuz they admit subpar students. Y’all need to grow up from this stupid inferiority complex.

Our attrition rate is double MD/DO programs. And we have a school with an average first time pass rate of 69% on part I of our licensing exam. Somehow they are still accredited. No US MD/DO program has a USMLE I first time pass rate that low. I know this is crazy, but maybe, just maybe, these things happen a lot more frequently in Podiatry school than they do in Medical school. Which is why they get brought up. And it just might have something to do with the caliber of student admitted to Podiatry school compared to a MD or DO program. Crazy, I know.

 

[billBOB213]

I don't know. MDs and RNs have extra letters being their names too. I feel like we just copy them. For the most part I have refused to be the diplomate or fellow things behind my name. I think it's odd.

Agree with this, sometimes less is more.
I came from advertising and don’t love when people have 5 titles behind their names. I get the idea behind putting as many credentials and certifications as possible, but I also think at times it borders on ridiculousness.
As I search through docs on LinkedIn, I can’t even figure out what some of the letters behind their names mean. And it’s my own profession
I just go with DPM right now.

 

[Adam Smasher]

can't agree with this one, that is part of the training and what sets us apart when it comes to woundcare. Its not learning how to change a dressing. Its seeing the progression of wounds, evaluating what works and what doesn't.

Yeah, as much as we don't like it, the wound care is the work that's always there for DPMs.

To clarify, I'm talking about the octagenarian hospice patient admitted to the ICU for CHF exacerbation with oozing venous insufficency wounds that they will be taking with them to their grave no matter what anyone does. Not saying this person shouldn't be treated with dignity, just saying it's not the most robust educational experience I would wish for a resident.

 

[Boba Foot]

can't agree with this one, that is part of the training and what sets us apart when it comes to woundcare. Its not learning how to change a dressing. Its seeing the progression of wounds, evaluating what works and what doesn't.

Decent glycemic control, adequate flow and proper offloading. Doesn't matter what you put on it as long as it has the ability to heal. Make a dry wound wet, make a wet wound dry. Not sure it takes a 3 year residency of rounding on patients every morning so your attending can bill for it to learn these pretty basic things.

 

[Hybrocure]

Decent glycemic control, adequate flow and proper offloading. Doesn't matter what you put on it as long as it has the ability to heal. Make a dry wound wet, make a wet wound dry. Not sure it takes a 3 year residency of rounding on patients every morning so your attending can bill for it to learn these pretty basic things.

You learn most of that on externships. If you’re at a decent program also you’re probably only doing that stuff during first year on calls.

There isn’t much of a reason for second and third year residents to round on wounds unless it’s to handle a bleeder that a first year can’t. It’s a bit silly when 12 people walk into a patients room just to dip some gauze into betadine and put it on a wound at 6am.

Now that doesn’t mean there isn’t more to be learned from wounds..there certainly is and you can go down the rabbit hole learning about all sorts of techniques for offloading surgically and nonsurg, grafts, etc. But this can be learned in a clinic environment on clinic rotations or in practice. Wounds are my favorite thing in podiatry but a lot of that happened from learning in wound care centers, the OR, or clinic settings not from morning rounds.


Also…the travel nurse is probably getting paid more than your attending. The nurse can change the dressing..