Are med students extra whiny?

[Samoa]

However, in regard to the actual topic, yes, med students are extra whiny.

More is expected, with less hand-holding, and it takes a while to adjust. In the interim, people whine to relieve the stress.

Also, some of it is justified. Malignant personalities, poorly organized curricula, poor communication and competitive classmates can make it all much more difficult than it has to be. So a good administration won't just dismiss it. But a certain amount of whining is normal, and the normal range of whining is probably a bit louder at med schools than elsewhere.

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[dramachine]

i get very whiny, sometimes to alleviate stress, or maybe a way of telling myself i should work a harder

 

[DoctorFunk]

I suspect you're correct, that they taught what they did know in far more detail.

Did you know that med student H&Ps used to run to 10 pages back in the 50's? When I was doing a chart review 1st year, I accidently ran across an old Charity chart from a 1950 hospital admission, and by the time I finished reading the H&P, I could actually picture the patient in my head. Complete with moles and birthmarks.

That may or may not be true on the whole (small sample size), but I think asserting that thorough notes indicate that medicine was as difficult to learn as it is now with our enhanced knowledge of molecular biology and pathogenesis is a leap of logic. It's not that we aren't also learning every descriptive word in dermatology to describe moles or warts in addition to the molecular basis of HPV infection. We're learning both, however we might be less apt to go on and on in great detail about patient minutiae that is of questionable medical importance, like how many times their Grandma Betty called to check up on them. There's no great knowledge base necessary to stalk your patient and write everything they do in your little mini-diary/SOAP note, however, which is where the difference in learning old-school medicine vs. modern medicine comes in.

 

[45408]

Um, pretty sure the "humours" model of medicine wasn't still in vogue back in the late 50's, guys.

I guess the joke was lost on you. Either way, I don't see how you can argue that med school was harder back then.

 

[Samoa]

That may or may not be true on the whole (small sample size), but I think asserting that thorough notes indicate that medicine was as difficult to learn as it is now with our enhanced knowledge of molecular biology and pathogenesis is a leap of logic. It's not that we aren't also learning every descriptive word in dermatology to describe moles or warts in addition to the molecular basis of HPV infection. We're learning both, however we might be less apt to go on and on in great detail about patient minutiae that is of questionable medical importance, like how many times their Grandma Betty called to check up on them. There's no great knowledge base necessary to stalk your patient and write everything they do in your little mini-diary/SOAP note, however, which is where the difference in learning old-school medicine vs. modern medicine comes in.

We weren't discussing the difficulty of the material, but rather the time commitment required. and most of the comments on this board acknowledge that the subject matter of medical school is not actually difficult. Such detail on those old H&Ps may not have been necessary medically (based on what we now know), but certainly the time investment required to generate it is significant. Also, when that much care is taken, it's far more likely that the patients outcome was the best possible at the time.

A great deal gets missed today. Outcomes as a whole are better because the arsenal of medicine is more powerful. But, IMHO, they could be better than they are, if we paid half as much attention to our patients as they did a half century ago.

Granted, the sample size was small, but this patient had several admissions, and each one was as carefully worked up as that.

In addition, there was a trend toward skimpier notes across every other chart I saw in which the patient had multiple admissions across several decades. i was simply pointing out the most extreme example.

 

[rhornblower]

I guess the joke was lost on you. Either way, I don't see how you can argue that med school was harder back then.

Yeesh, who cares. All I was trying to say was that med school was just as time-consuming back then -- they didn't cut you a bunch of slack in anticipation of future discoveries in molecular medicine. You had to do just as much work then as now (only there was no streaming video to help you learn at home whilst doing laundry/eating breakfast/painting toenails) and I would venture to guess that professors were somewhat harder on med students then than now (expecting them to be more adult, less frat-boy -- you had to dress up to go to class, etc). Also, I'm not talking about the diploma-mill med schools of like 200 years ago, I'm talking about a couple generations ago. Go ask one of your old professors what their med school was like compared to ours. I'm not trying to write a freaking historical thesis here, all I'm saying is that the general public has an idea of med school that comes from their parents' or grandparents' medical education, which bears little resemblance to the laid-back attitude of today's. And that if people want to justify their bitching and moaning by claiming that their medical education is the most difficult academic venture anyone in history has taken, they're kidding themselves.

/thread hijack, resume talking about whiners

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

An increase in applications to a specific school by the millions wouldn't matter. One of the things that matters is the total applicant pool (i.e. is everyone now applying to 100 medical schools on AMCAS?). The second factor is the quality of the pool. A smaller overall pool could be more competitive. The only way to really guage these things is retrospectively examing the total number who applied and the qualifications of that pool.

i guess i'm assuming that average stats are still increasing along with applicant numbers, because i think they have been steadily increasing. but no, it's not necessarily true.

 

[doctorp82]

Are you kidding? Watson & Crick had just discovered, *gasp* that DNA is a double helix!!! Put that on the exam! They had a tiny fraction of the drugs we have now, and much of physiology was still undiscovered. Biochemistry was in its infancy. Just because I can get the information in different ways doesn't make school easier - it just makes it so that we can learn more, so they teach us even more.

Standing on the shoulders of giants only goes to show you how much farther you can fall, I guess.

 

[shivasHeroLike]

because med students deal with a lot of stress. so its understandable.

 

[Melanie]

a lot of the hardcore whiners i've seen have NEVER held a job, and have no basis for comparison in regards to just how much life can suck when you're a mere cog in the corporate machine. i would much rather be slogging through anatomy any day.

I'm really tired of hearing this from the non-traditional students in my class. I'm not a whiner about med school...usually. But, those of us who are "traditional" students have a very different perspective. We are watching all of our friends in their early 20s get jobs, build-up careers, start families, buy houses, go on weekend camping trips, start 401Ks, etc. Please consider how frustrating this is to us. We are stuck in limbo, and although most of us know that it will pay off in the end, it's still a very frustrating situation. And, some of the biggest whiners in our class (actually the biggest one of all) worked for years as an accountant, so this isn't always true. It's really just an attitude thing. Some people are just going to whine, regarless of their life experience.

 

[Miami_med]

Well, considering that the vast majority of your classmates probably haven't really worked or paid much in taxes, it's a pretty worthless observation. The number of nontrads is so statistically insignificant that you can't say anything about working v. nonworking, maturity v. nonmaturity, etc. regarding feelings about socialized medicine based on anything you garner from talking to your classmates.

You're still implying that most supporters of socialized medicine don't get money or financial responsibility, which isn't a fair argument -- the fact that it's also totally irrelevant to the thread makes it even worse.

I'm not a non-trad AND I've actually supported myself before. That being said, you are correct that we are off topic. I apologize and back to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Jonesie]

I'm really tired of hearing this from the non-traditional students in my class. I'm not a whiner about med school...usually. But, those of us who are "traditional" students have a very different perspective. We are watching all of our friends in their early 20s get jobs, build-up careers, start families, buy houses, go on weekend camping trips, start 401Ks, etc.

Uh... what do you think "non-trad" students are watching their friends do? Pretty much the same things: establish careers, get promoted, have children, take trips, invest for retirement, etc. As a traditional student, at least you'll still have loads of time to do all of those things after you finish residency. Look on the bright side.

It's really just an attitude thing. Some people are just going to whine, regarless of their life experience.

Agreed. I think life experience can help in that it offers you a basis for comparison, though.

 

[FenderHM]

yes theyre bitchy little bitchers that like to bitch

 

[Medical123]

These are the same kids who just won't show up one day for a rotation because they need "me time", these are the same kids who whine when they have to work on their birthday, who will whine when they match and find out that their orientation date cuts into their "va-cay" time, and whine to holy heck when they get their first paycheck as a resident and see how much taxes are taken out.

This sounds exactly like a good percentage of my class. I actually matched with one of the aforementioned people, who is stunned by the fact that the residency program requires us to work 6 days a week during the ward months. We don't even have our residency schedules yet and she has e-mailed me with her social calendar, wanting me to commit to working for her! Ummmm.....right!

 

[Winged Scapula]

This sounds exactly like a good percentage of my class. I actually matched with one of the aforementioned people, who is stunned by the fact that the residency program requires us to work 6 days a week during the ward months. We don't even have our residency schedules yet and she has e-mailed me with her social calendar, wanting me to commit to working for her! Ummmm.....right!

Classic! Let's hope for *your* sake your program really only does make you work 6 days a week and not the occasional 7. Otherwise, you'll be a bit exhausted covering her social commitments!

 

[Melanie]

Uh... what do you think "non-trad" students are watching their friends do? Pretty much the same things: establish careers, get promoted, have children, take trips, invest for retirement, etc. As a traditional student, at least you'll still have loads of time to do all of those things after you finish residency. Look on the bright side.



Okay - out of 10 non-traditional students in my class - only one is not married and has no children. All of the others are married, have kids, and have had other careers. Those are the students I was basing this on.

 

[Mixtli]

Several of my classmates like to whine about the courseload, the way classes are run, the lack of time...stuff like that. I've caught myself whining about having a lot to study a couple of times.

But, like my undergrad biochem teacher told me, "If you studied as much as you whine, you'll get an A".

How about the people at your school.

Haha, that would be me!
Complaining is a great way to blow off stress. You b!tch to yourself about all that reading/memorization, but at the end of the day you still do it and feel relieved at having done so.

 

[pls accept me]

Haha, that would be me!
Complaining is a great way to blow off stress. You b!tch to yourself about all that reading/memorization, but at the end of the day you still do it and feel relieved at having done so.

Me=caught!

Blame Jane.

 

[doctorp82]

at the end of the day you still do it and feel relieved at having done so.

Or you feel worse because at the end of the day all you've done is read a bunch of mind numbing things.

When I get to the point where a patient doesn't die because of my decisions based off of the knowledge I've gained, then I'll feel relieved. Until then, there's a lot about sitting and studying that sucks. Sure, it's rewarding to have those "aha!" moments when you realize things click and you get it, sure it's a relief to get that high test score, but you're not studying just to know those little details. The only real reason we're pushing ourselves this hard is because we want to get to a point past where we are now, and be good doctors. If that wasn't the case, we probably would have turned into researchers, not physicians.

 

[da8s0859q]

Or you feel worse because at the end of the day all you've done is read a bunch of mind numbing things.

When I get to the point where a patient doesn't die because of my decisions based off of the knowledge I've gained, then I'll feel relieved. Until then, there's a lot about sitting and studying that sucks. Sure, it's rewarding to have those "aha!" moments when you realize things click and you get it, sure it's a relief to get that high test score, but you're not studying just to know those little details. The only real reason we're pushing ourselves this hard is because we want to get to a point past where we are now, and be good doctors. If that wasn't the case, we probably would have turned into researchers, not physicians.

I hate research, so yeah, screw that idea.

 

[Onstarr]

so whining about how med students whine too much.. sweet