Are my goals for DO realistic?

[StudentDO2023]

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Hello everyone, I have recently been accepted into an osteopathic medical school with full enthusiasm of attending. I would like to know if my goals in medical school are realistic considering the mixed messages I keep getting being a lurker on this site since the start of this cycle. I'd like to shoot for general surgery only. I am not gunning for orthopedics, neurosurgery, or anything fancy. I'd like to note that I am perfectly find with internal medicine and family medicine. I know as a DO student and my own academic limitations, I probably would not be well competitive for these specialties.

Is a DO student matching in general surgery a realistic goal for an average medical student (either allopathic or osteopathic) considering the merger?

How much does the DO degree limit me in applying for this field of medicine (despite others saying MD's and DO's are the same)?

Does being a DO make it even more harder to obtain a fellowship if I choose to do so?

Are students who take both the Complex and USMLE at a disadvantage due to studying for both instead of focusing on just one?

Does being a DO put me at a disadvantage for working in a hospital in a major city location (not like NYC big, but sizeable)?

All insight would be greatly appreciated, and I'd like to know if I am making too many assumptions. I prefer to not live with any delusions.

 

[Osminog]

Is a DO student matching in general surgery a realistic goal for an average medical student (either allopathic or osteopathic) considering the merger?

How much does the DO degree limit me in applying for this field of medicine (despite others saying MD's and DO's are the same)?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

View attachment 240763

I am surprised the mean USMLE was 238 even for general surgery. I was always under the impression that you were good with a 230. Guess not.

 

[Doc_Ock]

It can be done, but know that anything more than upper mid-tier is automatically off the table. DO just puts you in a box. Did you apply MD at all?


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[StudentDO2023]

It can be done, but know that anything more than upper mid-tier is automatically off the table. DO just puts you in a box. Did you apply MD at all?


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Nope, only DO. I got accepted very early. Mid-tier is no issue for me.

 

[oludir]

It can be done, but know that anything more than upper mid-tier is automatically off the table. DO just puts you in a box. Did you apply MD at all?

This is incorrect. Where did you get this from?

 

[sab3156]

This is incorrect. Where did you get this from?

No, it is not incorrect. Unless a DO applicant has significant connections in the field, upper tier programs will likely not bother touching you with a 10 foot pole. Only on SDN is pedigree not an issue.

 

[oludir]

No, it is not incorrect. Unless a DO applicant has significant connections in the field, upper tier programs will likely not bother touching you with a 10 foot pole.

LOL. If you say so.

 

[deleted610572]

LOL. If you say so.

They are right. Without connections, DO students don’t match into high tier programs. Doesn’t mean you won’t get good training.. just facts

 

[deleted950463]

Why wouldn’t you apply to MD schools? Having a DO can really limit opportunities.

 

[sab3156]

Nope, only DO. I got accepted very early. Mid-tier is no issue for me.

Keep in mind it's way harder to match into mid-tier ACGME general surgery as a DO. A large number of academic surgery programs will not interview you just simply due to the fact that you are a DO. Better work on getting well-connected in the field as soon as you can. Overall, surgery may not be a competitive specialty, but for DOs it can be tough to match into an academic mid-tier program.

Does being a DO put me at a disadvantage for working in a hospital in a major city location (not like NYC big, but sizeable)?

Absolutely yes. I can tell you from my experiences prior to medical school, in Boston at a top research hospital, they just didn't hire DOs, period. The well-known private practices in that specialty also just didn't hire any DOs. In cardiology, MGH does hire a few DOs, but they had research and residency/fellowship pedigree. So depending on the field and the type of hospital you want to work for, you may find it very difficult to get a job as a DO in a city that is saturated with brand name. Pedigree is a real thing in these types of cities, especially ones containing mainly prestigious hospitals. DO schools are always at the bottom of the ranking totem pole in terms of US medical schools, and it's always better to go MD if you want to keep options open.

 

[kelminak]

I am surprised the mean USMLE was 238 even for general surgery. I was always under the impression that you were good with a 230. Guess not.

Well that's just it though: it's the mean score. There's going to be a chunk of them under 238 who still matched. 😛

 

[deleted610572]

Keep in mind it's way harder to match into mid-tier ACGME general surgery as a DO. A large number of academic surgery programs will not interview you just simply due to the fact that you are a DO. Better work on getting well-connected in the field as soon as you can. Overall, surgery may not be a competitive specialty, but for DOs it can be tough to match into an academic mid-tier program.



Absolutely yes. I can tell you from my experiences prior to medical school, in Boston at a top research hospital, they just didn't hire DOs, period. The well-known private practices in that specialty also just didn't hire any DOs. In cardiology, MGH does hire a few DOs, but they had research and residency/fellowship pedigree. So depending on the field and the type of hospital you want to work for, you may find it very difficult to get a job as a DO in a city that is saturated with brand name. Pedigree is a real thing in these types of cities, especially ones containing mainly prestigious hospitals. DO schools are always at the bottom of the ranking totem pole in terms of US medical schools, and it's always better to go MD if you want to keep options open.

A little off target. Yes it will affect you working at top institutions but it won’t stop you from working in cities/suburbs of cities. The question was just can they work in cities which they can. Just may be the small community programs that don’t see much

 

[sab3156]

A little off target. Yes it will affect you working at top institutions but it won’t stop you from working in cities/suburbs of cities. The question was just can they work in cities which they can. Just may be the small community programs that don’t see much

Definitely agree with you on that. But, I read his question as "will I have a disadvantage as a DO when going on the job hunt in major cities?", which has a clear answer of "yes".

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Hello everyone, I have recently been accepted into an osteopathic medical school with full enthusiasm of attending. I would like to know if my goals in medical school are realistic considering the mixed messages I keep getting being a lurker on this site since the start of this cycle. I'd like to shoot for general surgery only. I am not gunning for orthopedics, neurosurgery, or anything fancy. I'd like to note that I am perfectly find with internal medicine and family medicine. I know as a DO student and my own academic limitations, I probably would not be well competitive for these specialties.

Is a DO student matching in general surgery a realistic goal for an average medical student (either allopathic or osteopathic) considering the merger?

How much does the DO degree limit me in applying for this field of medicine (despite others saying MD's and DO's are the same)?

Does being a DO make it even more harder to obtain a fellowship if I choose to do so?

Are students who take both the Complex and USMLE at a disadvantage due to studying for both instead of focusing on just one?

Does being a DO put me at a disadvantage for working in a hospital in a major city location (not like NYC big, but sizeable)?

All insight would be greatly appreciated, and I'd like to know if I am making too many assumptions. I prefer to not live with any delusions.

Look at the General Surgery match data for a MD with a 220-230s vs a DO with a 220s-230s and see the difference.

If you're thinking anything that's even surgery related, you better hit 229 plus or minus 5 points minimum to even be in consideration.

It's easy to talk about busting at least a 220 on Step 1 as a first year medical student until you're studying for board as a 2nd year medical student.

 

[deleted950463]

SDN feels like a place that’s pretty heavy on the DO kool-aid really. I thinn DO education has a place in fulfilling the primary care need, but to say that DO and MDs have comparable outcomes in the match are just delusional.

 

[Neopolymath]

SDN feels like a place that’s pretty heavy on the DO kool-aid really. I thinn DO education has a place in fulfilling the primary care need, but to say that DO and MDs have comparable outcomes in the match are just delusional.

That must be the pre-osteo subforum because the actual medical student subforum doesn't have that many hopeless romantics/naive people.

 

[DOFOSHO]

pre M1: im going to be a surgeon
m1: surgeon
m2: surgeon
m3: nevermind

 

[MyGrainAura]

pre M1: im going to be a surgeon
m1: surgeon
m2: surgeon
m3: nevermind

m4: damn FP is pretty cushy actually...


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[Black Coffee 24/7]

m4: damn FP is pretty cushy actually...


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Until you went through a FM residency and then practice medicine for 5 years... you then realize that you’re the dumping ground for all bs and paperwork. You look at the bs that you deal w/ on a regular basis vs your sub-specialist printing dollar bills next door while working 10 hrs per week less than you.

It’s that moment that you start to hate yourself.

My advice to all kids on here is to be careful about the bs propaganda pushed by your DO overlords at school about how cushy FM is. It’s a trap. Make sure to keep your eyes open during third year especially the dynamic interaction bet a FM and a sub-specialist and the real work and life balance of an attending at least 5 years in practice.

I have been in three subspecialty services so far. So far, all the discharge summaries end up with follow up with your PCP. LOL

That’s a code for a lifetime of intern work there, sprinkled in some bs time wasted trying to convince people to take their pills, eat healthy, and quit smoking.

 

[hallowmann]

Until you went through a FM residency and then practice medicine for 5 years... you then realize that you’re the dumping ground for all bs and paperwork. You look at the bs that you deal w/ on a regular basis vs your sub-specialist printing dollar bills next door while working 10 hrs per week less than you.

It’s that moment that you start to hate yourself.

My advice to all kids on here is to be careful about the bs propaganda pushed by your DO overlords at school about how cushy FM is. It’s a trap. Make sure to keep your eyes open during third year especially the dynamic interaction bet a FM and a sub-specialist and the real work and life balance of an attending at least 5 years in practice.

I have been in three subspecialty services so far. So far, all the discharge summaries end up with follow up with your PCP. LOL

That’s a code for a lifetime of intern work there, sprinkled in some bs time wasted trying to convince people to take their pills, eat healthy, and quit smoking.

This post really demonstrates a lot of inaccurate generalizations and a lack of knowledge of what FM docs, PCPs, interns, and even specialists do or prioritize. But hey, you're a med student that rotated "in three subspecialty services so far", so you've got it all figured out.

 

[Spectreman]

pre M1: im going to be a surgeon
m1: surgeon
m2: surgeon
m3: nevermind

My favorite are the YouTube Vlogs, big long videos about how “neurosurgery is my passion”
- skip 2 years -
“Why Family Med is my calling”

**Totally going to be me, BTW

 

[deleted610572]

This post really demonstrates a lot of inaccurate generalizations and a lack of knowledge of what FM docs, PCPs, interns, and even specialists do or prioritize. But hey, you're a med student that rotated "in three subspecialty services so far", so you've got it all figured out.

Hahhha yepp. They don’t see the bs subspecialties have to put up with in the middle of the night on call while the pcp is snoozing in his bed

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

This post really demonstrates a lot of inaccurate generalizations and a lack of knowledge of what FM docs, PCPs, interns, and even specialists do or prioritize. But hey, you're a med student that rotated "in three subspecialty services so far", so you've got it all figured out.

I certainly don’t have it figured out.

But, I’m practical enough to trust the wise advices of my seniors including attendings and senior residents in multiple specialties including fields like Peds and FM.

So far, all of them say similar crap. Got nothing against FM but bless the hearts to all those gals and guys going into FM.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Hahhha yepp. They don’t see the bs subspecialties have to put up with in the middle of the night on call while the pcp is snoozing in his bed

Let’s clarify some points about these call business that a lot of people like to throw out to dismisss so-so specialties.

Being on call for a lot of specialties mean shopping online, watching espn, and sometimes sleeping at home. It sucks a$$ if you have to come in, but the frequent of times that you have to come in correlate with your area of practice, pay, and practice setup. This point is totally overrated.

Personally, I rather be on call q6 than dealing with regular bs that comes w/ dealing with uncompliant pts with diabetes and CV. Let’s not forget the babysitting occasions where you have to deal w/ DHS, DMV, and the court as a witness bc of the irresponsibilities of some of your pts. I saw at least 2-3 of these occasions out of the regular 17-18 pts on a daily basis at my FM rotation. All of these hrs on these nonsense are unpaid.

Lastly, for those who think these feelings are jaded due a possible terrible FM rotation, I did very well in term of grades, and connected really well with my FM preceptor.

 

[Chibucks15]

Let’s clarify some points about these call business that a lot of people like to throw out to dismisss so-so specialties.

Being on call for a lot of specialties mean shopping online, watching espn, and sometimes sleeping at home. It sucks a$$ if you have to come in, but the frequent of times that you have to come in correlate with your area of practice, pay, and practice setup. This point is totally overrated.

Personally, I rather be on call q6 than dealing with regular bs that comes w/ dealing with uncompliant pts with diabetes and CV. Let’s not forget the babysitting occasions where you have to deal w/ DHS, DMV, and the court as a witness bc of the irresponsibilities of some of your pts. I saw at least 2-3 of these occasions out of the regular 17-18 pts on a daily basis at my FM rotation. All of these hrs on these nonsense are unpaid.

Lastly, for those who think these feelings are jaded due a possible terrible FM rotation, I did very well in term of grades, and connected really well with my FM preceptor.

Also....it is truly possible that people don't want to specialize, *gasp*, contrary to what you see on here where some people want to specialize just to specialize sometimes. There's plenty of BS for every specialty and some people would rather spend time at home with their families than stuck at the hospital. Plus the non-compliant diabetic and CV angle is a little overblown because a lot of times its seen in literally every specialty because of all their comorbities associated

 

[deleted610572]

Let’s clarify some points about these call business that a lot of people like to throw out to dismisss so-so specialties.

Being on call for a lot of specialties mean shopping online, watching espn, and sometimes sleeping at home. It sucks a$$ if you have to come in, but the frequent of times that you have to come in correlate with your area of practice, pay, and practice setup. This point is totally overrated.

Personally, I rather be on call q6 than dealing with regular bs that comes w/ dealing with uncompliant pts with diabetes and CV. Let’s not forget the babysitting occasions where you have to deal w/ DHS, DMV, and the court as a witness bc of the irresponsibilities of some of your pts. I saw at least 2-3 of these occasions out of the regular 17-18 pts on a daily basis at my FM rotation. All of these hrs on these nonsense are unpaid.

Lastly, for those who think these feelings are jaded due a possible terrible FM rotation, I did very well in term of grades, and connected really well with my FM preceptor.

The problem you have here is that your non-complaint patient goes across all specialties. Most bad diabetics have multiple specialties looking after them on top of their pcp. Your personality might not lend well to pcp which is fine but to claim that the pcp is the only one dealing with those problems is absurd. I would agree the worst part of being a pcp vs subspecialty doc is the crazy amount of paperwork, but for some people the relatively mundane work and work life balance is a good trade off for paperwork.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Hello everyone, I have recently been accepted into an osteopathic medical school with full enthusiasm of attending. I would like to know if my goals in medical school are realistic considering the mixed messages I keep getting being a lurker on this site since the start of this cycle. I'd like to shoot for general surgery only. I am not gunning for orthopedics, neurosurgery, or anything fancy. I'd like to note that I am perfectly find with internal medicine and family medicine. I know as a DO student and my own academic limitations, I probably would not be well competitive for these specialties.

Is a DO student matching in general surgery a realistic goal for an average medical student (either allopathic or osteopathic) considering the merger?

How much does the DO degree limit me in applying for this field of medicine (despite others saying MD's and DO's are the same)?

Does being a DO make it even more harder to obtain a fellowship if I choose to do so?

Are students who take both the Complex and USMLE at a disadvantage due to studying for both instead of focusing on just one?

Does being a DO put me at a disadvantage for working in a hospital in a major city location (not like NYC big, but sizeable)?

All insight would be greatly appreciated, and I'd like to know if I am making too many assumptions. I prefer to not live with any delusions.

It’s definitely possible, but you do have to be above average by md standards for the most part in terms of boards and need to crank out research and all that jazz. Being above average seems like a no-brainer as a pre-med, but keep in mind that means outcompeting roughly half of the population of people who already outcompeted you for med school. It’s not as easy as SDN makes it seem.

 

[oludir]

SDN feels like a place that’s pretty heavy on the DO kool-aid really. I thinn DO education has a place in fulfilling the primary care need, but to say that DO and MDs have comparable outcomes in the match are just delusional.

Very interesting comment. I think it is public information the percentage of DOs in primary care vs non primary care specialties and the percentage of MDs in primary care vs non primary care specialties.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

LOL. If you say so.

It's true, and by connections it usually means having to audition and show you're willing to slave away and have the perfect personality. From the people I know, literally nobody that matched a top program from my school did so without having to audition.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is a DO student matching in general surgery a realistic goal for an average medical student (either allopathic or osteopathic) considering the merger?

Yes it is a reasonable goal, but you need to be above average. You need to be 230+ for MD programs and at least 550+ for former DO programs.

Does being a DO put me at a disadvantage for working in a hospital in a major city location (not like NYC big, but sizeable)?

No, however like sab said major academic institutions will definitely be extremely hard to get hired at, for reasons that can be addressed in a different thread.

I am surprised the mean USMLE was 238 even for general surgery. I was always under the impression that you were good with a 230. Guess not.

GS is like IM, the top programs can go toe to toe with any specialty and there is a wide range of programs and spots. For MD surgery as a DO once you break 230 you are in the running and your chances of matching greatly increase. If you are 220+/550+ you will have a decent chance too but you’ll need to target former AOA programs and perhaps select community programs.

Mid-tier is no issue for me.

Mid-tier surgery as a DO means you will need to be a stud. 250+ with good research and LORs/connections. You will likely match a former AOA program or community MD program.

This is incorrect. Where did you get this from?

He is 100% correct.

I can tell you from my experiences prior to medical school, in Boston at a top research hospital, they just didn't hire DOs, period.

Yes but most cities aren’t Boston, and we are talking any large hospital not simply prestigious academic centers.

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

So we know that GS is certainly doable as a DO. Especially if you work hard and keep your eye on the prize. What about surgical fellowships???

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

So we know that GS is certainly doable as a DO. Especially if you work hard and keep your eye on the prize. What about surgical fellowships???

GS fellowships aren't competitive. In general, the sky is the limit for a DO for the fellowship game in every specialty if you have the grit to persevere through the bs created by your DO overlords for a solid residency spot in a desired specialty.

 

[JohnathonNY]

Wow a lot of great advice thanks everyone. I guess I want to clarify that I have no intention of working at top academic research facilities, nor do I care much for the actual prestige in my profession. I'd just like to be a productive medical professional. I only applied to DO schools (4 total) and got into my first choice (I practically only have to pay the tuition which is cheap). I guess I have a lot of work to do, but thinking more and more about this I'm probably okay with internal medicine out in my small town.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What about surgical fellowships???

Depends on the fellowship. Some of them have more spots than applicants: i.e. trauma, transplant; some of them are mild to moderately competitive but are possible from essentially any program if you put in the effort for it: i.e vascular; some of them are moderately competitive and will take networking, research, but can still be had from many community programs: i.e plastics, cardiothoracic; and some of them are so competitive they are not realistic for DOs unless you make it to a mid-tier university program that has 2 years of research as part of the training and make excellent connections/have great research output: i.e surg onc, peds. Pediatric surgery is actually one of the most, if not THE most, competitive field in medicine due to the very small number of spots. I'm talking specifically peds surg post GS. Peds fellowships after ENT and ortho are very doable, but the rate limiting step is not the fellowship, but landing the residency.

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

Depends on the fellowship. Some of them have more spots than applicants: i.e. trauma, transplant; some of them are mild to moderately competitive but are possible from essentially any program if you put in the effort for it: i.e vascular; some of them are moderately competitive and will take networking, research, but can still be had from many community programs: i.e plastics, cardiothoracic; and some of them are so competitive they are not realistic for DOs unless you make it to a mid-tier university program that has 2 years of research as part of the training and make excellent connections/have great research output: i.e surg onc, peds. Pediatric surgery is actually one of the most, if not THE most, competitive field in medicine due to the very small number of spots. I'm talking specifically peds surg post GS. Peds fellowships after ENT and ortho are very doable, but the rate limiting step is not the fellowship, but landing the residency.

What makes Peds so competitive besides the number of spots!?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What makes Peds so competitive besides the number of spots!?

It's highly academic, and they are one of the fields of surgery that are true jack of all trades surgeons. They do lots different cases and many of them are very unique. It's simply a niche field. The number of spots plays a big role, there were only 43 total fellowship spots last cycle.

 

[Neopolymath]

What makes Peds so competitive besides the number of spots!?

Last true general surgeon

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

Last true general surgeon

What do you think lands the closest after peds in terms of autonomy in surgery?

Surgical Critcal Care seem fairly autonomous in that they apparently handle everything from the time the pt enters the ED to the ICU?

 

[Neopolymath]

What do you think lands the closest after peds in terms of autonomy in surgery?

Surgical Critcal Care seem fairly autonomous in that they apparently handle everything from the time the pt enters the ED to the ICU?

A truly rural general surgeon let's you do the most cross-discipline stuff IMO

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Surgical Critcal Care seem fairly autonomous in that they apparently handle everything from the time the pt enters the ED to the ICU?

You still have to turf the CT, Vascular, and sub specialty trauma to the proper field. Honestly a rural GS is probably the closest thing to the large breadth of cases that a peds surgeon sees.

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

You still have to turf the CT, Vascular, and sub specialty trauma to the proper field. Honestly a rural GS is probably the closest thing to the large breadth of cases that a peds surgeon sees.

What’s your take on Acute Care Surgery? I’m always trying to learn everything I can about every field as early on as possible?

 

[HueySmith]

What if you have a 235+ step score but no research? Are you still in the running for a gen surg spot? Where can you match with that, the boonies?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What’s your take on Acute Care Surgery? I’m always trying to learn everything I can about every field as early on as possible?

"Trauma surgery" is becoming more and more about non-operative management. A lot more managing trauma patients medically in the SICU than operating on them than there has been in the past. Most trauma surgeons have a normal general surgery practice and then take trauma call and run the SICU occasionally, it's rare for someone to simply have a trauma only practice unless they work at like Cook County or another similarly massive large city trauma center.

This is what current surgeons have conveyed to me.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What if you have a 235+ step score but no research? Are you still in the running for a gen surg spot? Where can you match with that, the boonies?

Well seeing as essentially no GS programs are "in the boonies"..... I guess it depends on what you mean by boonies. With a 235+ you are very well positioned for former AOA programs and community MD programs. You need to reach out to a current resident for guidance. I have personally talked to someone at a large university program who only had a 230.

You need to apply very broadly and do aways/auditions, get good letters, etc. I would also highly suggest at least getting a case report or a poster or two. GS isn't high on research, but with competitiveness increasing you will want it because most everyone else will have something.

You've asked this question before and I've given you essentially the same answer. If you are so worried then make charting outcomes your best friend and start looking at resident rosters, reaching out to DO residents at MD programs. If you really want GS then you need to go get it, it won't be your scores that hold you back.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

NRMP data from 2018 suggest a 60%March rate for general surgery DO seniors. Got to want it, but is doable.

 

[Spectreman]

NRMP data from 2018 suggest a 60%March rate for general surgery DO seniors. Got to want it, but is doable.

I don’t understand why it’s so low. Last year my school matched 5 into ortho and 5 in GS. That just seems crazy.

 

[Mass Effect]

Absolutely yes. I can tell you from my experiences prior to medical school, in Boston at a top research hospital, they just didn't hire DOs, period. The well-known private practices in that specialty also just didn't hire any DOs. In cardiology, MGH does hire a few DOs, but they had research and residency/fellowship pedigree. So depending on the field and the type of hospital you want to work for, you may find it very difficult to get a job as a DO in a city that is saturated with brand name. Pedigree is a real thing in these types of cities, especially ones containing mainly prestigious hospitals. DO schools are always at the bottom of the ranking totem pole in terms of US medical schools, and it's always better to go MD if you want to keep options open.

I'm calling you out on this one. Which top Boston research hospital are you talking about?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I don’t understand why it’s so low. Last year my school matched 5 into ortho and 5 in GS. That just seems crazy.

Possibly candidates from other schools were not as strong. My school had several match in GS and ortho also. I think the narrative on SDN about being a DO and having few options is exaggerated

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don’t understand why it’s so low. Last year my school matched 5 into ortho and 5 in GS. That just seems crazy.

GS seems to be the reach specialty for many people with low scores who still “want to go for surgery.” I’m talking like people with 400s COMLEX only. If you really look at the data the decent candidates generally match fairly comfortably if you include the AOA programs as well as ACGME spots.