Are premeds narcissistic?

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Does anyone else get a mild teeth gritting sense of irritation from the term premed? I hate it. I'm also old and increasingly crotchety.

OP, your professor is likely both old and somewhat crotchety. Perhaps, don't use that term or play music in public through your cell phone's speaker. (The latter should NEVER happen)

 

[tortelliniboy]

lol it's like those guys that say "I'm a sanitation engineer" or whatever. It's somewhat pretentious in the way that you're trying to make something seem greater than it really is. In my opinion you were not being pretentious but I'm trying to understand where that prof was coming from. As for myself I always told people I'm an "exercise physiology major" whenever they asked; part of the reason I did this was because I was worried about looking stupid if I never made it in. IE you see someone several years down the line and they ask "hey are you in med school" and you're left sheepishly looking at the ground mumbling about what you ended up doing instead. Then again even now with my MD I just tell inquiring people "I put people to sleep" when they ask what I do lol.

 

[darklabel]

Weird. At my school almost no one but pre-meds takes gen chem/orgo.

Anyway, I love Me 😛

Same for me. Premeds had their own classes while the engineers had separate classes . My professors would ask who was premed and the entire class basically raised their hand.

 

[z_maverica]

Yeah, but in terms of overall marketability, it's pretty good. Big firms are looking for quantitative majors so STEM and engineering people with the exception of biology. A BA in the humanities or even social sciences are not nearly as marketable as degree in a STEM field.

Is this what you're talking about?
http://www.fastcompany.com/3034947/...ceos-want-employees-with-liberal-arts-degrees

 

[lifetothefullest]

Is this what you're talking about?

Nah, I'm talking about Wall Street recruitment. From a heavily recruited school, I can tell you that STEM fields are heavily recruited because of the students' quantitative and analytical skills. Even tech jobs - you cannot get a job at big tech firms like Amazon or Google with a humanities degree. No way. You need computer science. Even at such a heavily recruited school, kids in other STEM fields are rejected all the time in favor of computer science majors.

 

[freemontie]

Nah, I'm talking about Wall Street recruitment. From a heavily recruited school, I can tell you that STEM fields are heavily recruited because of the students' quantitative and analytical skills. Even tech jobs - you cannot get a job at big tech firms like Amazon or Google with a humanities degree. No way. You need computer science. Even at such a heavily recruited school, kids in other STEM fields are rejected all the time in favor of computer science majors.

"Big tech firms" are not just huge buildings of programmers hacking away. They have account managers, sales, marketing, business relationship managers, human resources, etc etc more than I know. And before you say these aren't the good jobs realize that many of the eventual managers and department heads do not come from the software dev ranks. Now- if you want to say you need a STEM major to be competitive for specifically a "software development engineer I" job at a big tech firm- somewhat right. Though even more important is internships and your portfolio of work (kind of like how artists have a portfolio to show employers).

As for Wall Street, which is a vague term but I know you mean high finance in general, specifically "front office" positions in things like ibd, asset management, s&t, what have you. Yes, quantitative majors are appreciated. But are they the majority of the recruited class? No, ultimately they are the minority. Because the areas of finance that can actually utilize the quantitative skills of an engineering degree, for example, even among the front office positions, is so so very small. The actual common factors? Top school + high GPA + right internship experience (including tons of hustle to have gotten it)....and, sometimes, connections. But not major. (But if you must insist on pointing out the most common major- it would be 'business' or some form thereof; though that precludes most of the ivy league which don't have biz majors.)

Now, back to thread topic.

 

[lifetothefullest]

The actual common factors? Top school + high GPA + right internship experience (including tons of hustle to have gotten it)....and, sometimes, connections.

This is really not true. I regularly go to the internship fairs and we are heavily recruited by the top finance firms. Each fair has a booklet that lists all the firms at the fair that day and the "desired majors" they are looking for. I've checked one from the previous fair just to make sure I'm remembering correctly and yes, quantitative majors are the ones heavily recruited. I'm talking about analyst positions, i-banking, trading, asset management, etc. The interviews consist of statistical/probability/other mathematical problems. So yes, for top finance positions, quantitative majors are in high demand. Perhaps in PR, humanities has the lead.

Finally, your comment

But if you must insist on pointing out the most common major- it would be 'business' or some form thereof; though that precludes most of the ivy league which don't have biz majors.

could not be more wrong. My Ivy has no "business major" and we regularly send 40% of our graduating class to Wall Street. My friends are now working for firms like JP Morgan, Barclays, etc. These aforementioned friends majored in Chemistry, Operations Research and Financial Engineering, Chemical Engineering, among others. Very few majored in the humanities. And yes, they hold analyst, asset management, i-banking positions. I would suggest you look at the recruitment statistics for top Ivies before you write a piece that only consists of a misguided opinion.

 

[toffee_bloom]

Eh, I think most people have a problem with it for one of two reasons: 1) Half of the freshman coming in that say they're pre-med have no idea what it actually means and most of them will not make it to med school. 2) At a lot of universities, like mine, pre-med isn't a major, you just take the pre-reqs. But I'm sure when some students are asked what their major is, they say pre-med.

I know at my school there is a certain stigma against pre-meds as being stuck-up, but that really is mostly for the freshman pre-med that don't know anything about the process and then switch to another major/career goal the next semester, which is FINE, but it can get annoying when people are so overconfident in knowing what they want to do and are close-minded to all other options. Of course, there are some that come in knowing what they want to do and stick to it too, it just seems like with pre-meds it's most common for a lot to switch to something else. (And really a lot seem to switch to law, as if the only things you can do in college are either becoming a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. So if one doesn't work out for you, switch to one of the other two, because they're all pretty much the same thing... 🙄)

In my experience instead of biology it seems like most pre-meds are coming in as psychology majors. I actually think that's there's just as much of an attitude against pre-meds as there is against engineering students, at least at my school anyway. I know my anthropology teacher would complain about the layout of how the classroom was built and would then blame it on the engineering students, and he did that a lot. He was a douchebag.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

I recently had an orgo professor and several classmates call me narcissistic because I told them I was premed. The professor embarrassed me in front of 300 students, telling me to find "premed" in the list of university majors. One of the bio majors in the class asked me what my major was, and I said it was premed biology. I was shocked when he got mad and said he was majoring in biology an planning to go to med school but considered himself a biology major. The professor then asked the chem majors to raise their hands. There were about 20 in the class. He asked every one of them what their major was and they said it was chemistry. The prof then asked how many of them planned to go to med school and 8 of them said they were going. Again my orgo professor turned to me and said "Did you learn anything or do we have to go through this again next time"?

I've been thinking about this for 2 weeks. Are premeds narcissistic? Is this a bad thing? Do I have a "pathological psychological disease" as one of my psychology classmates said?

Time and time again Professors can be really mean. The point of college is to learn stuff and pursue a career, MD, PhD, law, teaching, etc. The point isn't to stand at the lecture podium talking down to students. I do empathize with your situation because professors at my particular UG will go out of there way to screw over premedical students. The best thing I can suggest is say you're a biology major. At that point if they ask pre-med or whatever say you're considering all options. :\ sorry professor embarrassed you in front of your entire lecture hall. If it makes you feel better, your professor was probably pre-med at one point and couldn't cut it to get into medical school and now takes revenge on pre-meds and glorifies PhD bound students.

 

[JBrand]

I always say that I am Majoring in XXX, and then if people ask what I want to do with that, I tell them I'll be applying to medical school.

I Don't prefer to mention it directly right away because that sort of belittles my studies here. I identify with what I am studying, not what I plan to do in the future, because that is not yet guaranteed.

 

[futuredoc331]

I think neurotic is usually a better adjective.

 

[freemontie]

This is really not true. I regularly go to the internship fairs and we are heavily recruited by the top finance firms. Each fair has a booklet that lists all the firms at the fair that day and the "desired majors" they are looking for. I've checked one from the previous fair just to make sure I'm remembering correctly and yes, quantitative majors are the ones heavily recruited. I'm talking about analyst positions, i-banking, trading, asset management, etc. The interviews consist of statistical/probability/other mathematical problems. So yes, for top finance positions, quantitative majors are in high demand. Perhaps in PR, humanities has the lead.

Finally, your comment



could not be more wrong. My Ivy has no "business major" and we regularly send 40% of our graduating class to Wall Street. My friends are now working for firms like JP Morgan, Barclays, etc. These aforementioned friends majored in Chemistry, Operations Research and Financial Engineering, Chemical Engineering, among others. Very few majored in the humanities. And yes, they hold analyst, asset management, i-banking positions. I would suggest you look at the recruitment statistics for top Ivies before you write a piece that only consists of a misguided opinion.

First part: Statistical/probability/mathematical problems in the interview IBD? No way. Not from my experience, just a couple of years ago when I graduated. S&T? sure. But nothing requiring more than intro probability theory (the one after Calc I/II)

Second part: I didn't say that. I said if you had to pick one major that's the most common. Obviously it's still not common because most ivies don't have business majors.
And I've seen the list of schoool/major of the IBD analyst classes of two BBs when I graduated. I have no reason to think it changed significantly in just a couple of years.

Last: No university has 40% of it's class going to Wall Street. That seems crazy to me unless things bounced back in a BIG way? (Except maybe Wharton w/o including the rest of Penn or *maybe* Stern w/o including the rest of NYU - but you already said you go to a school w/o a business major). But if true- good for you. Makes it seem like you can just go to your school and almost walk onto a Wall Street job. Wasn't my experience at all (and yes I went to an ivy too).

EDIT: I should note that when I did the whole spiel they had the same talk about preferring quantitative majors. All things equal- why not? But in the actual analyst classes (what I'm talking about)- they were the minority. Probably b/c few of them had the GPA or time/ability to network to get the internship and later the job. That said, if many people, like you, believe that quantitative majors are virtually a requirement- than these days the people interested in those jobs would major in them, no?

 

[miszfifi820]

Fun fact: a lot of today's science teachers didn't do so hot on the MCAT in the 80's if you catch my drift. Don't let it get to you OP. That said, avoid identifying yourself as "pre-med" since it implies that you know you'll be going to medical school when in fact 90% of the people who start out as pre-med don't even wind up applying.

I really dont understand why someone should 'refrain' from saying pre-med.
every single person in my crew of friends that started off pre-med, switched. But that doesnt take away from the fact that they were once working towards the goal of medical school'. like who cares.

If you want to go to class in a lab coat with 'Future Dr. Blah blah' stitched on the chest, so be it. If you want to go every where on earth with your official white coat when you get it, so be it.
Too many ppl on this forum are always talking about 'thats such a tool move, thats pretentious, narcassitic etc.'who cares.

there was another thread on here where someone said 'posting that you got into med school on social networks is a tool move because of others who might still be waiting' OKAY?! AND!?
I will never dim my light because it is shining in your eyes...

The title of this thread should be changed to 'Do premeds care too much about what other people think?'

btw I would have told off that professor..

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I really dont understand why someone should 'refrain' from saying pre-med.
every single person in my crew of friends that started off pre-med, switched. But that doesnt take away from the fact that they were once working towards the goal of medical school'. like who cares.

If you want to go to class in a lab coat with 'Future Dr. Blah blah' stitched on the chest, so be it. If you want to go every where on earth with your official white coat when you get it, so be it.
Too many ppl on this forum are always talking about 'thats such a tool move, thats pretentious, narcassitic etc.'who cares.

there was another thread on here where someone said 'posting that you got into med school on social networks is a tool move because of others who might still be waiting' OKAY?! AND!?
I will never dim my light because it is shining in your eyes...

The title of this thread should be changed to 'Do premeds care too much about what other people think?'

btw I would have told off that professor..

The answer is yes, most premeds do care too much about what others think. I posted a "got into med school" fb status... And no one complained. If I'm shining too bright for your eyes, then get some sunglasses and move on.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Statistical/probability/mathematical problems in the interview IBD? No way.

My sources are people who went through the applications this year and got the jobs at the firms mentioned above. Interviews were very problem-intensive for the analyst positions. I don't know about PR, "front desk" positions, but I'm only talking about the analyst stuff.

No university has 40% of it's class going to Wall Street.

Have you seen this: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/out-of-harvard-and-into-finance/?_r=0. Before the financial crisis, we were sending over 40% of our students to the finance sector (that's what I mean when I say "Wall Street" - the same definition that you understood in your first reply). Even after the crisis, the numbers stabilized at around 35%. More recent figures from Career Services puts it around 40% again. So yes, my university sends 40% of its students into Wall Street (finance).

I do not contend that networking is a must if you want an analyst, asset management, i-banking position. But ceteris paribus, quantitative majors are preferred. By quantitative, I mean engineering, physics, math, chemistry. Now, the reason you don't see all quantitative majors in those Wall Street jobs is that the supply is exhausted before the demand. Out of my major, probably around 20-30% want to go into finance, although that figure is presumably higher for math, engineering, etc. since the overall figure is, again, around 40%. Now, Princeton is not representative of the other Ivies, since other Ivies, yours included, sent far fewer kids to Wall Street. Most people who really do want to go to Wall Street major in international affairs, politics, or economics. Now there are several possible reasons for this. Nowadays math and science are hard. There are many reports out there lamenting how American students are falling behind their peers in math and the sciences and drop out of those fields. Simply put, many people do not enjoy being told they are wrong, which happens much more frequently in the sciences. Therefore, only people who truly love the sciences will major in them and of that subset, it is less likely that those people want to go to Wall Street.

I think your argument there strikes to the heart of this thread. People tend to go into fields they love not because of future expectations (which will surely disappoint) but because they enjoy the subject matter. Indeed, it takes thorough enjoyment of the material to suffer through two intensive years of science/math training. It is not for the faint of heart. That is why the OP's professor was probably offended. He thought the OP was majoring in biology only because he was pre-med, not because he loved the material. That is a subtle distinction and they are not mutually exclusive ends, but to the professor at that moment, it probably seemed that way.

So the point is this: not everybody who wants to go to Wall Street majors in STEM because those fields are simply not appealing to them for a variety of reasons. Instead, they devote their study to economics, international relations, etc. - fields that genuinely interest them. Now, my school has a quantitative "finance" track in economics that trains students in precisely the quantitative skills in high demand by finance firms but again, that is a small subset of the people who do end up going to Wall Street. Why do you think even intern salaries are so high? Firms have to attract top students away from engineering/science fields which are usually very well-paid - they do so by offering even more competitive salaries.

 

[freemontie]

My sources are people who went through the applications this year and got the jobs at the firms mentioned above. Interviews were very problem-intensive for the analyst positions. I don't know about PR, "front desk" positions, but I'm only talking about the analyst stuff.



Have you seen this: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/out-of-harvard-and-into-finance/?_r=0. Before the financial crisis, we were sending over 40% of our students to the finance sector (that's what I mean when I say "Wall Street" - the same definition that you understood in your first reply). Even after the crisis, the numbers stabilized at around 35%. More recent figures from Career Services puts it around 40% again. So yes, my university sends 40% of its students into Wall Street (finance).

I do not contend that networking is a must if you want an analyst, asset management, i-banking position. But ceteris paribus, quantitative majors are preferred. By quantitative, I mean engineering, physics, math, chemistry. Now, the reason you don't see all quantitative majors in those Wall Street jobs is that the supply is exhausted before the demand. Out of my major, probably around 20-30% want to go into finance, although that figure is presumably higher for math, engineering, etc. since the overall figure is, again, around 40%. Now, Princeton is not representative of the other Ivies, since other Ivies, yours included, sent far fewer kids to Wall Street. Most people who really do want to go to Wall Street major in international affairs, politics, or economics. Now there are several possible reasons for this. Nowadays math and science are hard. There are many reports out there lamenting how American students are falling behind their peers in math and the sciences and drop out of those fields. Simply put, many people do not enjoy being told they are wrong, which happens much more frequently in the sciences. Therefore, only people who truly love the sciences will major in them and of that subset, it is less likely that those people want to go to Wall Street.

I think your argument there strikes to the heart of this thread. People tend to go into fields they love not because of future expectations (which will surely disappoint) but because they enjoy the subject matter. Indeed, it takes thorough enjoyment of the material to suffer through two intensive years of science/math training. It is not for the faint of heart. That is why the OP's professor was probably offended. He thought the OP was majoring in biology only because he was pre-med, not because he loved the material. That is a subtle distinction and they are not mutually exclusive ends, but to the professor at that moment, it probably seemed that way.

So the point is this: not everybody who wants to go to Wall Street majors in STEM because those fields are simply not appealing to them for a variety of reasons. Instead, they devote their study to economics, international relations, etc. - fields that genuinely interest them. Now, my school has a quantitative "finance" track in economics that trains students in precisely the quantitative skills in high demand by finance firms but again, that is a small subset of the people who do end up going to Wall Street. Why do you think even intern salaries are so high? Firms have to attract top students away from engineering/science fields which are usually very well-paid - they do so by offering even more competitive salaries.

"Only talking about the analyst stuff" What does that even mean? Analyst is just a common term used in high finance for any entry level job across very wide business functions (with the exception of equity analysts, which are quite different). And my definition of wall street jobs were specifically front office positions ('Front office' is a slang term for jobs in the divisions of BB (bulge bracket) banks (along with some respected small banks referred to as "boutiques" e.g. Jeffries or Lazard, etc) that make the big bucks- most commonly ibd and s&t). Not any finance sector job- which will include good-but-not-great jobs like Credit Analyst at PNC Bank to a market risk analyst at XYZ small prop trading group all the way down to crummier jobs like selling insurance at regional outfit QRS. So why is it so absurd to think 40% of any university's class- even Harvard- goes to front office wall street positions? Because there are only 6-7 banks considered BB depending on who you ask and their U.S. analyst class for IBD is 40-100 people (no idea about S&T analyst class but in my time it was much smaller than IBD typically). Or have those numbers changed in the last few years?

Despite your obvious early stage in your college and job-recruiting journey, I don't think you are willing to listen to me. And I feel silly arguing with you. I suggest you leave SDN and go to wallstreetoasis to talk about it.

 

[lifetothefullest]

So why is it so absurd to think 40% of any university's class- even Harvard- goes to front office wall street positions?

If you had taken the time to read past the title, you would have noticed that the school that sends 40% of its grads to finance is not Harvard but rather Princeton. What I call "analysts" are your front office positions - the revenue generating part of the bank - i.e. i-banking, trading, etc. These are the positions the people I referenced above are in/going into.

Back to the main point. Here is a sample interview question asked this year by one firm: two cars are moving away from each other orthogonally, one at 4 ft/s and one at 5 ft/s. The first car had a 1 sec head start. At 5 seconds, how fast are they moving apart from one another? Sure, your humanities major might be able to answer this with a decent math background. But it would take a math major all of ten seconds. The mere fact that these math interview questions are asked suggests they are seeking people with quantitative backgrounds. By the way, this firm is a top Wall Street firm and the position my friend was interviewing for was trading. He is an engineering major. Another friend in i-banking had a similar interview experience and he is a physics major.

Despite your obvious early stage in your college and job-recruiting journey, I don't think you are willing to listen to me. I suggest you go to wallstreetoasis.

I am a senior with job offers (not in finance) with friends who are going into or in finance. Again, my school sends 40% of its grads into finance and I am speaking from experience with both Career Services and my friends' experiences.

 

[freemontie]

If you had taken the time to read past the title, you would have noticed that the school that sends 40% of its grads to finance is not Harvard but rather Princeton. What I call "analysts" are your front office positions - the revenue generating part of the bank - i.e. i-banking, trading, etc. These are the positions the people I referenced above are in/going into.

Back to the main point. Here is a sample interview question asked this year by one firm: two cars are moving away from each other orthogonally, one at 4 ft/s and one at 5 ft/s. The first car had a 1 sec head start. At 5 seconds, how fast are they moving apart from one another? Sure, your humanities major might be able to answer this with a decent math background. But it would take a math major all of ten seconds. The mere fact that these math interview questions are asked suggests they are seeking people with quantitative backgrounds. By the way, this firm is a top Wall Street firm and the position my friend was interviewing for was trading. He is an engineering major. Another friend in i-banking had a similar interview experience and he is a physics major.



I am a senior with job offers (not in finance) with friends who are going into or in finance. Again, my school sends 40% of its grads into finance and I am speaking from experience with both Career Services and my friends' experiences.

Listen again: There are simply not enough U.S. front office wall street analyst positions open every year for 40% of Harvard's or even the much smaller Princeton's graduating class to get them. Not even close. Period. Congratulations on your friend or yourself. I hope you just walk right into a "top wall street firm" whatever that means "for trading" (wth?- you mean s&t at an institutional bank, Asset manager, on a exchange, at an hedge fund, mutual fund, prop trading group, at one of the interbroker dealers, what?) with your BS in engineering-math-physics. It's almost infuriating when someone won't listen to basic facts from someone who has actually been through high finance recruiting. Seriously- go to wallstreetoasis instead of SDN.

PS- I already told you that a job in finance does not equal a front office wall street job. I had a job in finance after graduating too - for a financial software company that listed as a financial services company. That is not a "wall street job" by anybody's definition which I thought was what we were talking about. Or were we just misunderstanding this point?

 

[lifetothefullest]

It's almost infuriating when someone won't listen to basic facts from someone who has actually been through high finance recruiting. Seriously- go to wallstreetoasis instead of SDN.

You're quoting your own personal experiences and I am telling you mine. You should learn to see other people's viewpoints and experiences - your experience may not be and is not the only possible route out there.

There are simply not enough U.S. front office wall street analyst positions open every year for 40% of Harvard's or even the much smaller Princeton's graduating class to get them.

No, my point is that those positions do seek quantitative majors, all things being equal. And that those few quantitative majors who want to go to Wall Street are taken up by the top firms before humanities people, all other things being equal. That's it. That's the point. The 40% statistic was in response to something else - about a "biz" major, I believe.

If you are so set on the viewpoint that your own experience is what must be correct, I see no point in arguing further on here. I just hope my posts here serve as a useful counterexample to your experience and that other people may see it in that light.

 

[freemontie]

You're quoting your own personal experiences and I am telling you mine. You should learn to see other people's viewpoints and experiences - your experience may not be and is not the only possible route out there.

No, my point is that those positions do seek quantitative majors, all things being equal. And that those few quantitative majors who want to go to Wall Street are taken up by the top firms before humanities people, all other things being equal. That's it. That's the point. The 40% statistic was in response to something else - about a "biz" major, I believe.

If you are so set on the viewpoint that your own experience is what must be correct, I see no point in arguing further on here. I just hope my posts here serve as a useful counterexample to your experience and that other people may see it in that light.

Most finance jobs for undergrads are not engineering-relevant. Most wall street jobs for undergraduates are not engineering-relevant. Non-engineering jobs do not have a huge preference for engineers/STEM. Now- that is very different from saying that all things equal quantitative-minded people are preferred over non-quantitative-minded people in nearly every industry. But that's more along the lines of interpreting graphs and charts and not shying away from basic statistics and data crunching.

 

[Chemistry>Physics]

Good luck getting into med school with that attitude. The college/premed game is essential. Don't have a bachelor's degree? No med school for you!

But actually tho, @onceawolverine said it best. College is one of the best times for personal growth; it certainly helped me get to where I am today. If I could go back and do college again, I'd choose the same school and do more things but with the right attitude all the time.

Actually technically you don't need a bachelors degree to get into med school. You only need to have completed the pre requisites

 

[medic86]

Actually technically you don't need a bachelors degree to get into med school. You only need to have completed the pre requisites

This is technically wrong now.

The vast majority explicitly require a degree these days.

 

[Premed wrestler]

This

I recently had an orgo professor and several classmates call me narcissistic because I told them I was premed. The professor embarrassed me in front of 300 students, telling me to find "premed" in the list of university majors. One of the bio majors in the class asked me what my major was, and I said it was premed biology. I was shocked when he got mad and said he was majoring in biology an planning to go to med school but considered himself a biology major. The professor then asked the chem majors to raise their hands. There were about 20 in the class. He asked every one of them what their major was and they said it was chemistry. The prof then asked how many of them planned to go to med school and 8 of them said they were going. Again my orgo professor turned to me and said "Did you learn anything or do we have to go through this again next time"?

I've been thinking about this for 2 weeks. Are premeds narcissistic? Is this a bad thing? Do I have a "pathological psychological disease" as one of my psychology classmates said?

At least you didn't introduce yourself as Future Doctor "insert name here* as a Freshman, did to me. First time meeting him and everything, as soon as he said it was on like he did not just say that. Now that is narcissistic.

 

[theriomorphos]

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