Are rolling admissions fair?

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geldrop

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Ok I spoke to one of the school's that rejected me, and tried scraping the admission's office for a reason they decided to reject me. Someone on my interview must have been accepted, but they really wouldn't give me any information as to why they were accepted over me.

Just basically says having my application in a month before the deadline isn't soon enough.

It seems unfair that people are hurt by just turning their application in later before the deadline, also hurts the medical schools.

If its a good medical school it seems to me it would be to their advantage to avoid rolling admissions. This way they get a full view of their applicant pool, and in addition its more fair for those of us that took the august MCAT and wish to apply for the fall.

I imagine it can be a big logistical nightmare reviewing all the applicants once they all come in, but maybe if they set the deadline a little earlier that would make up for it.

Anyone know how the non-rolling school's handle reviewing their applicants??

Its a damn shame that so many schools are rolling and all the ones I wished to attend were rolling.
 
Geldrop,
rolling admissions can be a godsend for those applicants who get their application materials in early. I received my first offer of admission in october, which 1) was a huge relief, and 2) allowed me to turn down other interviews. I also know a girl who immediately withdrew her other applications once she heard from her top choice in the fall

Although the process certainly isn't perfect, rolling schools probably have a good idea what caliber of applicants to send acceptance to, based on past years. I'm sure that they don't take all early applicants...instead it's a way for the schools to start accepting the people that they think are really outstanding.

-L
 
geldrop,
did you send in all your apps late? if so, you will be at a serious disadvantage! i know it sucks (i was an august mcater so even though i turned in my primary in june, my apps weren't compete until mid-october), but that's just how it is. turning in your apps late will SEVERELY affect your chances of admission.
as for non-rolling schools... i would have thought that you would be at less of a disadvantage if you turned your app in late, but if you look at the august mcat thread, hardly anyone got interviews at any of the non-rolling schools. seems fishy to me. maybe it's just that they're so competitive, but some of the august mcaters got interviews at other prestigious schools, so i have to wonder if late apps hurt you with non-rolling schools as well.
it is fair i guess, since it is fairly common knowledge that you must turn your app in early to have a good shot. maybe you didn't know this, and if so that's too bad 🙁, but most people do.
med schools have so many applicants, that it really doesn't matter how they do it. they will always have too many great applicants to choose from! it's probably easier for them to do rolling admissions.
 
I think it would be unfair if people weren't told if a med school is rolling admissions, but since it's public information, I think it's just another part of the game.

I took the August MCAT, knew I wouldn't have as good a chance of getting into schools if I applied that same year, so I waited a year to better my chances, and had my personal statement and research all done, ready to be submitted when AMCAS opened up.

Non-rolling schools interview everyone they want to interview, and then decide on who they want all at the same time, once they've seen all applicants. That makes more sense to me, but not how it works.
 
Anything is fair if everyone has the same knowledge and opportunities. I guess you could make the argument that August MCATers are 'unfairly' disadvantaged as they start the process later but I don't really think so as it was a choice we made (I was also an August MCATer). Sure we are at a disadvantage from it but we don't necessarily have a 'right' to equal consideration with someone who got stuff in early, and if you only got things in right before deadlines then it perhaps wasn't the MCAT that was holding you up anyway...

I'm sorry you haven't been having better luck, but if you reapply then at least you know how to stack things *in* your favor this time - do everything early. It might mean schools get the best class by waiting to see everyone but I'm not sure about that - the applicants also have limited patience and like to know earlier rather than later where they are going - I know I turned down interviews to some good schools later in the process which I would have been delighted to attend had they let me know earlier on. Either way, it's just the way that it is, and as we can't change it, the best we can do is to learn the system and work it as much to our advantage as possible. Good luck with med school and the whole rotten process of getting in 🙂
 
We all knew the rules of the game going into this. To me, it's fair that those who apply early get considered early. That's only logical. Based on the experiences of some friends who applied last year, if you are truly an all-around good applicant (both on paper AND in person), you probably will get accepted eventually. The fact that you were granted an interview says that you were acceptable on paper, and that you weren't THAT late applying (whereas some August MCATters who were late never even got that opportunity)...maybe it's your interviewing skills that need a little polishing?
 
Its not that its just unfair to the student that handed it in late. And like lola yeah all of mine were completed late. The first few that I handed in were completed Late november early december. Waited to get the results of my mcat.

You know what else is BS, if you apply to the MSTP programs and they don't take you it even puts you at a BIGGER disadvantage cause then they forward your crap to the other MD office delaying everything longer.

Yeah its nice for people to know right away, this way it keeps slots open at other schools, but its unfair for people that hand it in late. its a stupid reason to get rejected handing in a form, they should have a deadline for a reason. Its just stupid having a deadline and it being worthless.

Also its unfair for the universities where they will have filled up their class for the most part and than have accepted people in to slots that might have been filled with people that applied late and would have better fits for those seats.

They should make it like a residency match. Seems like a much better idea. Levels the board.

And there should be some kind of rule where if you have a good interview they take you. Why bother interviewing people if you wouldn't take them even if their interview goes well.
 
so if you're accepted to one of your top choice schools, would you withdraw your app from other schools just because you don't care about them or is it because it gives others a chance to get in once you're out of the applicant pool? basically, why would you withdraw? why not wait to see where else you can get in?
 
Originally posted by geldrop
Someone on my interview must have been accepted, but they really wouldn't give me any information as to why they were accepted over me.

Just basically says having my application in a month before the deadline isn't soon enough.

geldrop- If you got an interview at all to this particular school, then the timing of your application couldn't have hurt you that much there. They wouldn't interview you if they were just going to throw you out automatically afterward. If someone else that interviewed with you got accepted, and they turned in their app at the same time as you, well, maybe there's a lesson learned somewhere in there.

Two points- 1) May 15 is still a month away, so your waitlist schools are still very possibly going to accept you. 2) Reapplying is not the end of the world. Myself and plenty of others are reapplicants, and we are that much wiser this time around because of it.

The bottom line is, go out, go for a hike or a bike ride or surf or snowboard or paint or listen to music or something to take your mind off it!
 
geez, geldrop! it's not unfair if we all know the rules of the game to begin with. you're obviously just bitter. while i agree with some of your points (like doing a match and not wasting peoples' time interviewing them if they're not going to get accepted if they have a great interview), it's obvious you are very bitter. it was your choice to take the august mcat and turn your apps in late. i took it and knew i was at a disadvantage, but i did not wait for my scores even though i knew they were going to suck b/c i knew that waiting would hurt my app A LOT. it was a gamble, and probably one you should have made. why did you hand them in in november/december when you got your scores in mid-october??!! obviously you were a bit misguided, which is too bad, but you should have known these things.
 
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Originally posted by uclakid
basically, why would you withdraw? why not wait to see where else you can get in?

Because interviewing is exhausting and very expensive, and I can think of a hundred other things I either should do, or would enjoy more, than going to an interview that may or may not lead to an acceptance which I by that stage won't accept anyway. Maybe you have to attend a few interviews before you realize how time, energy and money draining they can be but after a couple, you really don't want to do ones that aren't necessary.
 
Originally posted by geldrop
Its not that its just unfair to the student that handed it in late. And like lola yeah all of mine were completed late. The first few that I handed in were completed Late november early december. Waited to get the results of my mcat.

Again, you probably realized this was a disadvantage before you started applying, right?

Originally posted by geldrop
You know what else is BS, if you apply to the MSTP programs and they don't take you it even puts you at a BIGGER disadvantage cause then they forward your crap to the other MD office delaying everything longer..

Well, why did you apply MSTP? did you actually want to do it?

Originally posted by geldrop
Yeah its nice for people to know right away, this way it keeps slots open at other schools, but its unfair for people that hand it in late. its a stupid reason to get rejected handing in a form, they should have a deadline for a reason. Its just stupid having a deadline and it being worthless.

Well, its not "worthless". If you didnt turn in your application on time, then you wouldnt have even had the possiblity of getting interviewed, end of story. Its not like yours is the only application in the world, man, med schools get on average several thousand applicants to interview a fraction of those and accept a smaller fraction. If they want to impose a time constraint to get all the thousands of applications into to be reviewed in some reasonable amount of time, so be it.

Originally posted by geldrop
Also its unfair for the universities where they will have filled up their class for the most part and than have accepted people in to slots that might have been filled with people that applied late and would have better fits for those seats..

Its not like medicals school cant find plenty of qualified applicants who took the april 2002 and before mcats and and have to wait for the august test takers to find enough students to meet their standards. Top schools could fill their classes several times over with kids with 3.7+ GPAs and 33+ MCATs, probably even within the april test taker pool.

Originally posted by geldrop
They should make it like a residency match. Seems like a much better idea. Levels the board.
How about no? This isnt residency match. In the med school admissions game there isnt a 1:1 applicant to position ratio like there is in match

Originally posted by geldrop
And there should be some kind of rule where if you have a good interview they take you. Why bother interviewing people if you wouldn't take them even if their interview goes well.

Well, first, how are so freaking sure all your interviews went so well to guarantee you acceptance?

and, again, medical schools screen thousands of applicants, interview several hundred qualified applicants, and have to select a class that ranges from 40 to 250 students. While interviews are important, do you think medical schools could take every last applicant who has a "good" interview outright?!?! Hell no!! Once you go back to committee, they look at your entire file again, and a committee votes on your candidacy.
 
geez geldrop
relax... i am sure you will get in somewhere eventually, but you are sounding a bit bitter now. sure parts of the application process is unfair, but we all deal with it... i mean you got interviews- which is more than other people who have applied early got... you just keep posting threads about how unfair it is that you are not in med school yet and not just any ole med school but ones that you think you deserve... well many deserving people don' t get in... i am sure if you want it badly enough you will get in... breathe
 
There are just so many bad things about the way they conduct medical school admissions, that it just irritates me. While it doesn't do any good, Its nice to vent my frustration.

Yeah it is my fault, I should have just waited a year and applied for next year, but oh well. I didn't want to hang around for another year waiting.

I just had no quantifiable information about what a disadvantage it is handing it in before the deadline, but not in the first few months. Now having experienced the bias first-hand I feel it hardcore.

I just think they admission process should be a little more systematic. Instead of just having people vote on you on a committee, there should be a score attached to you. Do this get so many points etc. People with the most points should get in. End of story. Shouldn't be a such thing as one person on the commitee having a huge affect on getting in or not. Just imagine the favrotism that goes on during comm. meetings.

I heard a story at Einstein how this kid with horrible gpa and mcat score got in because one guy liked that he served in the service for a few years.

Heard another story about this paraplegic guy at Einstein that most of the comm. members wanted to reject, but he was very smart and kind and one guy stood in for him and he got in.
 
Rolling admissions is fair. Everyone knows how it works. If someone turns materials in late(ie because of aug mcat etc.) then they should be prepared for the consequences. I mean no one said they had to apply that cycle. They could've waited a few more months and applied during the following cycle and have first dibs on rolling schools. I realize having applied late and getting the boot from places on that basis can be frustrating. I mean I've been there before. However, take responsibility for your actions. You applied late(for whatever reasons). Deal with the consequences.

As far as why interview people at all if they are going to reject you? Well...the schools do not know they are going to reject you when they invite you for interview. For all they know you could be the best candidate in the world and would gladly accept you. You may have thought it was a great interview but they may not have thought so in comparison to the other interviewees. Furthermore, the school probably has way too many people who had "good" interviews to accept. Does that mean the interview was worthless? No, because when they invited those people they were hoping that those people would have outstanding rather than just "good" interviews. Don't put the blame on the school.

I totally understand your frustrations. The system probably isn't perfect. But on the same token you know the rules. Instead of complaining about them just keep playing by them. When you do become a physician maybe you can institute your ideas for change then. But remember, you have to follow before you can lead. Look at what YOU could have done to change the outcome of your situation. YOU control your destiny, not the schools.

Not trying to rip you down. I just don't think complaining is the answer. I got the shaft from 30 schools my first cycle and instead of complaining how the system is unfair I looked at myself and assessed how *I* could improve.

As someone stated earlier...go fly a kite, relax...hopefully those waitlists come through. If not...YOU control what will happen to you in the future. Good luck!
 
How about a little perspective? What is unfair is getting diagnosed with cancer at age 21, unfair is dying in a airplane crash, unfair is going to your child's funeral, unfair is being born with Down's Syndrome or with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome because your mom didn't care enough about you to stop drinking. Not to be melodramatic, but c'mon... this isn't going to destroy your life.

I am sorry that this application cycle did not go as planned, but you knew all the rules of the game, as others have said. Frankly, you should have prepared better. Taken the MCAT earlier... decided to take a year off. I did the latter to improve my chances. I can almost say for sure that I would not have gotten in to my top choice had I applied last year. I think the most important thing is to accept responsibility for your choices and learn from them. Don't blame it on a system that you are subscribing to.
 
Dearest geldrop,

Your story gives me faith that the application process works. You bring a smile to my face.

Hope that Helps.

P 'Born Again' ShankOut
 
There is nothing unfair about rolling admissions. For the most part, every student can have their applications in early, as long as they are responsible enough to do so. If it mattered so much, you should have gotten your act together and sent your (completed) application early.
Wanted to get your MCAT scores before applying? Well, you should have prepared in advance and taken the April MCAT (or even the August MCAT from the year before).
Didn't have enough time to finish your secondaries? Sure you did. Just take 30-60 minutes every morning to work on them. Even if you are working and/or taking classes, you can find time, even if it means taking away from fun.
Your LOR's weren't sent early? Well, this is why some applicants start asking for them in March.


And there should be some kind of rule where if you have a good interview they take you. Why bother interviewing people if you wouldn't take them even if their interview goes well.
Please. 🙄 If a school admitted everyone who had a good interview, some would have to admit nearly everyone they interviewed. Besides, an applicant's idea of a good interview does not necessarily match the interviewer's...

I just think they admission process should be a little more systematic. Instead of just having people vote on you on a committee, there should be a score attached to you. Do this get so many points etc. People with the most points should get in. End of story.
Some schools do work this way. And nearly all schools choose who to invite to interview based on a score. But it would be impossible to have all schools do this. Imagine if 100 is the top score. There are so many qualified applicants out there. There will be way too many with scores of 95-100. Even if you use a score system, it will still be objective. For example, one adcom member may assign a LOR 10 points, and another may only give it 8.
 
Who ever said life had to be fair?
 
I've read so many comments here about how a late application (like mine, I applied mid-october) has a large adverse affect on your chance of admission. I just don't buy it.

Look at it from an adcoms point of view. Their mission is to get the very best students for the next year's class. They review all applications received before the deadline. Why would they choose a less qualified applicant who applies in June over more qualifed one who applied in October? You might reply that "the class is full already when they interview the second candidate". But adcoms are clever. They only offer early spots to students they know would be among the top tier of the matricating class. The other spots are 'wait and see' until they are finished or nearly finished interviewing and can compare each app versus the entire pool, and accept the best of the bunch.

So why do adcoms tell everyone it is so important to apply early? Because they want a full roster of students to interview in sept and oct. If they didn't suggest applying early, many more would wait till the deadline and they'd be backlogged in the winter.

Granted, it is still preferable to apply early. Schools may underestimate interest in their school and overaccept early in the season, leaving late applicants at a disadvantage. But i think this is the exception rather than the rule.
 
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Geldrop, why don't you STOP WHINING. So many of your posts to this board have been filled with a sense of entitlement and arrogance. You seem to believe that you deserve to get into every medical school you apply to, simply on the basis of your stats (MCAT 37, GPA 3.7, I believe). Well, first of all, your stats aren't THAT unusual. Secondly, as many people have said, there's a lot more than stats that goes into the admissions process...health experience, extracurrics, essay, LORs, your interview. Timing of your application is important and there's also some luck involved. Presumably you knew the rules when you applied. You knew the timing of your application was important. You don't have to like it or think it's fair, but to assume that you're so special that the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to you smacks of arrogance. You knew that getting your apps in late would hurt you, you did it anyway, and then you come and bitch because med schools didn't think you were so special that they were willing to make an exception for you. Look, you were incredibly lucky to get as many interviews as you did considering how late you applied.

I also applied on the late side because I was unsure whether I should apply this year or wait a year. It's definitely hurt me (four waitlists, no accepts) but you don't see me bitching about it. I'm going to do everything I can to try and get in off one of those waitlists. In the meantime I'm going to start applying again, get my AMCAS in by mid-June, and just in general be smarter about it this time. I'm looking at my own weaknesses and trying to fix them instead of bitching that the world is out to screw me over.
 
and good luck with both the waitlists and/or the re-application jennie21 - I admire your attitude and think that by taking some responsibility, learning from this, and proactively trying to improve your chances, you will definitely succeed in your goal - good luck! :clap:
 
Life is hard and life isn't fair.

The sooner you accept it, the easier it will get.
You are going into the wrong profession if fairness if what you are after, my friend. I hope things work out for you.
 
Originally posted by indianboy
Dearest geldrop,

Your story gives me faith that the application process works. You bring a smile to my face.

Hope that Helps.

P 'Born Again' ShankOut

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

word.
 
you go Jennie 21- what a great attitude- geldrop should take some notes
 
I also applied on the late side because I was unsure whether I should apply this year or wait a year. It's definitely hurt me (four waitlists, no accepts) but you don't see me bitching about it.

I already posted once on this thead about this, but you guys continue to take for granted that your admissions outcome is directly related to your late application. Nearly all schools structure their admissions process so that late applicants are not at a disadvantage. Why does everyone take for granted that a app finished in the fall = big trouble? I just don't get it.
 
Originally posted by JlazyMD
I already posted once on this thead about this, but you guys continue to take for granted that your admissions outcome is directly related to your late application. Nearly all schools structure their admissions process so that late applicants are not at a disadvantage. Why does everyone take for granted that a app finished in the fall = big trouble? I just don't get it.

you're right. its not a *direct* correlation. However, you have to admit that the later in the process one applies, the more difficult a time they will have getting in. If a class is nearly full a school isn't going to be as liberal with their offers as they were at the beginning of the cycle.

Its like purchasing air jordans...the air jordan retro 8 releases may 3rd. If one were to go online at various websites it is still relatively easy to place a pre-order. However, the closer and closer we get to may 3rd most online companies will begin filling all their pre-orders. Once all the online pre-orders are filled people will have to actually go to the shoe stores in person on may 3rd and fall in line. Now if they fall in line early enough they may still be able to get a pair. However, if they fall in line too late(say 6am at a store where people have lined up since 4am) then they probably won't get a pair of air jordan 8's even though they had the $135 to spend on them. The closer and closer one gets to the release date the lower their chances of actually walking away with a pair of J's because now the anticipation has built up and more people want J's than there are available. It will depend on whether the person happens to select a store with a short enough line.

Sorta similar because the longer one waits the less and less accepts a school will have to offer. So if one waits close enough to the deadline, they may be qualified and the school may want to give them an offer but there just aren't enough offers to give out. Just like the air jordans, the shoe stores want to sell you more shoes, but there just aren't enough shoes for all the customers that want them.

Now I'm oversimplifying things with my analogy...But come on...we all know that there are many more qualified applicants than positions available. That makes it an early bird gets the worm situation just like the air jordans. Where is your proof that applying later to a rolling admissions school is not a disadvantage? I'd say it is a disadvantage, the degree of which depends on many factors. Nevertheless, it is a disadvantage.
 
c'mon, geldrop. life isn't 'fair'. Didn't we all learn that lesson sometime back in elementary school when we took the fall for some other snotnose's spitball or whoopee cushion?

People only care if something is 'fair' if they don't get what they want out of it. Face it geldrop, if you'd gotten into someplace you wanted to go, nothing in the world would make you give two hoots about whether the whole process is fair.
 
Originally posted by jennie 21
I also applied on the late side because I was unsure whether I should apply this year or wait a year. It's definitely hurt me (four waitlists, no accepts) but you don't see me bitching about it. I'm going to do everything I can to try and get in off one of those waitlists. In the meantime I'm going to start applying again, get my AMCAS in by mid-June, and just in general be smarter about it this time. I'm looking at my own weaknesses and trying to fix them instead of bitching that the world is out to screw me over.

Jennie 21, good luck on ur waitlists and reapplication.

Geldrop, it appears you have really good stats, if you don't get in this year, i think your stats are good enough for you to try to apply early admission to your top choice, but whatever you do, i would suggest getting feedback, from people that care enough to be honest with you, about your interview style. If your interviews were anything similar to the way you come accross on this board, i would suggest changing something here and there. Good luck!!
 
Hi guys...sorry, but I'm going to jump in for a second. I'm going to take the MCATs this August. But what if I turn in my apps very early so that the only thing they have to wait for is my MCAT scores? I'm going to send in my primaries by at least the end of June at many people's advice. Is that still a great disadvantage?

UCLAMAN,

You took the Aug mcats last summer right? When did you submit your primaries? BTW, good analogy.
 
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I think its actually quite simple. Applicants who apply early have their act together and will appear to be more enthusiatic about applying to medical school because they are on the ball right away. Those that apply late are people who are disorganized procrastinators and appear to be not so sure they want to apply or don't have the confidence to submit their applications right away.

If you don't think rolling admissions is fair, then submit things early so you can't use that as a dumb excuse of not getting in.
 
Originally posted by dreaminOfMD>.<
if I turn in my apps very early so that the only thing they have to wait for is my MCAT scores? .

Well I suspect from earlier posts that some people (eg JlazyMD) will think you will not be at any disadvantage.

I still think you will be at a disadvantage, even doing that, but it is (in my opinion) the *only* way to do it if you are even considering applying the same year as taking the August MCAT. It is the way I did it this year but I *still* think I would have faired better had I had the same profile but an April MCAT. Of course....we'll never know for sure 😉

So my opinion - you'll still be at some disadvantage, but it is the right way to do it - and make sure you hand all 2ndaries in within a week of receiving them (as that can delay you as long as anything else otherwise) - but be aware some schools won't send you secondaries till they have your MCAT...and be prepared to be frustrated reading SDN hearing everyone else getting interviews and acceptances and you not even having received 2ndaries from some schools... 😉 good luck
 
One more thing. There are plenty of people who get into medical school when they take the August MCAT, especially with a 37. Plus there are things you can do to help yourself by taking the August MCAT by sending in your secondaries and LORs early so when the schools get your MCAT scores in mid October, your application is complete and ready for review. There are ways of helping yourself out with rolling admissions even with taking the August MCAT.
 
Geldrop,
When I applied three years ago, I basically went through the same situation you went through (except I didn't have the excuse of August MCAT-I took it in April). I just wasn't on top of things, got my amcas in in September (with typos in my personal statement), and the rest of my apps in november/dec/just before the deadlines. To top it off, I only applied to 7 schools, and they were schools like Harvard, Stanford, and Cornell. Needless to say I didn't get called for many interview (2 total).
At the time I was living in Japan, and I was in a sort of information vacuum (ie no phone line in my room, very scant internet time at work). I was going through the whole process on my own, and didn't get much advice from my schools premed office or my advisor (even when I emailed them repeatedly with questions-they just ignored them). I flew back for my first interview, was jetlagged as hell and made a fool of myself - strike one. The next one I did a little better - interviewed in early March at my unranked "safety" school (ha), but was still waitlisted.
By the time June had rolled around, I had resigned myself to going through the app process again. The whole experience woke me up and I was determined to do everything right the second time around. Then, low and behold, I was accepted off the waitlist at my "safety" school in late June. I guess the point of the story is that there is still lots of time for your waitlist schools, so don't get too discouraged; and even if you don't get in, look at it as an opportunity kick ass next time around. Sometimes I almost wish that I hadn't been accepted when I was, just because it bugs me that I didn't put my full effort and attention to the application process, and I would have liked to have had another chance to do it right.
Anyway, the whole experience gave me a ton of motivation for med school - I took nothing for granted and studied my ass off, and as a result I at least have a chance at being competitive for any residency I choose to apply for.
 
i took the august mcat. if one wants to apply with august mcat scores it is best to have everything turned in before october. That means primaries, secondary essays, LORs, EVERYTHING should be in your files at the schools. This way as soon as the schools get you mcat scores your file is ready to rock and roll and they will review your files asap. yes, one is still at a disadvantage I'd say but at least you are doing everything in your power(short of applying the following cycle) to nullify that disadvantage.

Geldrop...did you not know that you would be scoring in the ballpark of mid 30's on your mcat? why did you not have EVERYTHING turned in before the scores came in? If you were pulling mid 30's on the practice tests, even if you choked on test day you would most likely still have been above 30. I got in with a 30 and 3.77. That 30 was from the aug mcat. Did you think your scores were going to deviate so much from your practice scores that it wouldn't be worth applying at all? Is that why you waited for the scores before even starting to send stuff in?

But even with the delay you are fortunate to have several interviews. No doubt your timing hurt you. But perhaps there are other aspects of your application that could use some fixing up as well. Instead of complaining about how the system sucks perhaps you should look at what sucks about your application and its timing.
 
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