Are there any “good” Mission Trips??

[RNtoMD87]

Eh if I volunteer abroad I would be providing nursing service, which is in high demand. Just throwing that out there. And with Mercy Ships, I’d be PAYING a steep price to do so...

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[dpmd]

then your experience has been limited and potentially skewed by ideology.

We may just agree to disagree on this one

He is not wrong that there are a lot of crappy ones. If you haven't seen that then your comment may just as well apply to you.

 

[deleted480308]

He is not wrong that there are a lot of crappy ones. If you haven't seen that then your comment may just as well apply to you.

I 100% have seen bad trips and organizations. Those absolutely exist

 

[TMC07]

Nvm, not arguing this anymore. For anyone interested, there’s a great podcast called the White Savior/Failed Missionary where former missionaries and their close friends (both African) discuss the issues with missions. It’s not all encompassing by any means, but it is an interesting discussion.

 

[dpmd]

I 100% have seen bad trips and organizations. Those absolutely exist

So then you guys might only be disagreeing on the ratio (maybe not even that). I think being cognizant that some trips might be more about making the people on it feel better than truly helping and that trying to connect with the good ones may be difficult is a reasonable strategy. Doesn't mean no one should go. Just means they should consider other options.

 

[deleted480308]

So then you guys might only be disagreeing on the ratio (maybe not even that). I think being cognizant that some trips might be more about making the people on it feel better than truly helping and that trying to connect with the good ones may be difficult is a reasonable strategy. Doesn't mean no one should go. Just means they should consider other options.

I thought I had been clear that bad ones and good ones existed. I'm sorry if that didn't come across.

 

[RNtoMD87]

It just amazes me that people devoting their time to go overseas is criticized. Guess it’s true- no good deed goes unpunished.

You cannot decipher someone’s motives unless you read their mind. Therefore I judge actions. If you help people, then I’m all for it.

 

[TMC07]

It just amazes me that people devoting their time to go overseas is criticized. Guess it’s true- no good deed goes unpunished.

Good intentions ≠ good outcomes

 

[RNtoMD87]

Sounds like they’ll fit in with medicine quite often

I just doubt these starving people in third world countries are saying “Hmm I’m glad you brought me food and water. But is it really because you have “white savior complex?” What’s your end game here”? No I’m sure they’re thinking “THANK YOU! I was starving!””

You can warp anyone’s reason for doing something any way you want. Psychology tells you more about the analyzer than the analyzee.

I’ve been criticized for going to Iraq, but those people can kiss my ass, because I had people first hand hug me, shake my hand, with tears in their eyes thanking me for coming. That means a lot more to me than some yuppie who has never even been to the Middle East explaining something they’ve never experienced.

 

[TMC07]

Sounds like they’ll fit in with medicine quite often

I just doubt these starving people in third world countries are saying “Hmm I’m glad you brought me food and water. But is it really because you have “white savior complex?” What’s your end game here”? No I’m sure they’re thinking “THANK YOU! I was starving!””

You can warp anyone’s reason for doing something any way you want. Psychology tells you more about the analyzer than the analyzee.

But most of these mission organizations we are talking about are NOT feeding starving people. That work is left to big gun organizations like UNICEF, which is not a mission organization for the average Joe.

Rationalize all you want. It’s understandable because no one wants to be told they wasted their time when they spend thousands to feel like heroes. That’s why this is such a touchy subject.

And on that note, I’m out. There’s plenty of info out there to support why mission trips are bad. In fact, I think there’s a rather hilarious article floating around here that talks about why two weeks in Haiti doesn’t matter. Found it: 7 Reasons Why Your Two Week Trip To Haiti Doesn’t Matter: Calling Bull on “Service Trips” and Voluntourism - The Almost Doctor's Channel
There’s also another great one from the New York Times: The Voluntourist’s Dilemma

 

[RNtoMD87]

I guess I don’t like wasting my time, so the only knowledge I know of volunteering is doing useful things. I’ve only put serious thought and planning into two volunteer missions. Helping the Kurds fight ISIS before I was a nurse, and paying to work on a Mercy Ship for awhile.

What stopped me from joining the Kurds is that contrary to popular belief it is a LONG process. My friend went and fought with them, and it took him several years before they would even let him on the front lines. You have to gain their trust, and demonstrate competence. A good thing, but it complicated the process for me.

 

[dpmd]

It just amazes me that people devoting their time to go overseas is criticized. Guess it’s true- no good deed goes unpunished.

You cannot decipher someone’s motives unless you read their mind. Therefore I judge actions. If you help people, then I’m all for it.

You are misunderstanding the criticism. It isn't against the individual who truly wants to do good. It is against the organization that fails to integrate well enough with the local community to allow the efforts to be helpful. Or the organization that fails to plan for follow up. Or the one that messes up the local economy. Or the various other ways that a mission can seem good in the short term but not be good in the long term. It isn't even a criticism on the motives of the organization because they might have the best of intentions but lack the knowledge that would help them be effective.

 

[TMC07]

I guess I don’t like wasting my time, so the only knowledge I know of volunteering is doing useful things. I’ve only put serious thought and planning into two volunteer missions. Helping the Kurds fight ISIS before I was a nurse, and paying to work on a Mercy Ship for awhile.

What stopped me from joining the Kurds is that contrary to popular belief it is a LONG process. My friend went and fought with them, and it took him several years before they would even let him on the front lines. You have to gain their trust, and demonstrate competence. A good thing, but it complicated the process for me.

See, that sounds like a great way to volunteer abroad. And Mercy Ships is a very respectable organization.

What I’m referring to in this discussion are trips where people (college kids, high school students, church mission groups, etc) go and do work they really shouldn’t be. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

 

[RNtoMD87]

What kind of work are they doing? I’m not a religious person, (I’m actually openly critical of it), so I don’t keep up with what people do to please their Gods.

 

[TMC07]

What kind of work are they doing? I’m not a religious person, (I’m actually openly critical of it), so I don’t keep up with what people do to please their Gods.

Various different things. Spending a few weeks at an orphanage, “teaching”, building things, working in clinics, you name it and there’s probably a few dozen organizations where you can buy whatever experience you’re looking for.

 

[dpmd]

It is sort of how when there is disaster the folks telling people not to collect and deliver a bunch of stuff aren't saying that because they question the motivations of the donors but because the piles of things the disaster worker have to deal with becomes a huge problem and a lot gets wasted. If you get lucky you might connect with an organization who has the distribution manpower to get things to where they are needed but the chances you end up donating to a well meaning person who drives a truck up next to the shelter and offloads it without any strategy for it getting sorted and distributed is super high so maybe instead you should donate those items locally and/or donate money to reputable organizations to then buy the stuff they actually need.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yeah, most useful organizations want more credentials. Even the YPG wanted to see what experience I had, and was turning many people away. My limited combat experience got my foot in the door, but I was by no means sought after. I still wonder whether I should’ve just done it. Would’ve been a hell of an Ec and more importantly life experience as well as making a huge difference.

 

[TMC07]

Yeah, most useful organizations want more credentials. Even the YPG wanted to see what experience I had, and was turning many people away. My limited combat experience got my foot in the door, but I was by no means sought after. I still wonder whether I should’ve just done it. Would’ve been a hell of an Ec and more importantly life experience as well as making a huge difference.

Good on you for finding a good organization, even if you didn’t end up participating. I always scratch my head if there isn’t a solid vetting process.

 

[LizzyM]

What kind of work are they doing? I’m not a religious person, (I’m actually openly critical of it), so I don’t keep up with what people do to please their Gods.

Some of the work that they typically do manual labor. It would be a far better use of resources to hire a local to do the job for the prevailing wage in their community and let a local feed his family than to let him sit idle and have a teenager from overseas do the work "for free" overlooking the fact that the kid (or his community) paid hundreds of dollars for transportation to that location.

Playing with children is all well and good but is it really good for orphans to have strangers come and go in their lives in a week or two without the possibility of building long-term relationships?

The only real benefit of these programs is showing young people how some people elsewhere in the world live and to hope that they will be woke by the experience.

 

[deleted480308]

Some of the work that they typically do manual labor. It would be a far better use of resources to hire a local to do the job for the prevailing wage in their community and let a local feed his family than to let him sit idle and have a teenager from overseas do the work "for free" overlooking the fact that the kid (or his community) paid hundreds of dollars for transportation to that location.

Playing with children is all well and good but is it really good for orphans to have strangers come and go in their lives in a week or two without the possibility of building long-term relationships?

The only real benefit of these programs is showing young people how some people elsewhere in the world live and to hope that they will be woke by the experience.

I think this makes two not necessarily proven assumptions:
1) that whoever has the volunteer labor coming in can afford the local labor
2) that the same amount of money would have been raised and donated had the volunteer not been planning on that trip

 

[RNtoMD87]

This is my thought. In some situations unskilled labor would probably be a waste, but in some situations it is probably quite useful. Or teaching. Teaching seems to be a good use of resources.

 

[dpmd]

I think this makes two not necessarily proven assumptions:
1) that whoever has the volunteer labor coming in can afford the local labor
2) that the same amount of money would have been raised and donated had the volunteer not been planning on that trip

1) if the organization used the travel and housing funds they would likely be able to afford local labor
2)if the reason for volunteering is to help others rather than just to travel somewhere exotic and get pics with impoverished brown folks then the fundraising should still be accomplished.

 

[deleted480308]

1) if the organization used the travel and housing funds they would likely be able to afford local labor
2)if the reason for volunteering is to help others rather than just to travel somewhere exotic and get pics with impoverished brown folks then the fundraising should still be accomplished.

1)I'm referring to the local organization. for instance, it's easy to say that an orphanage in haiti should be able to afford local labor, but they might legitimately not be able to afford it and team of construction labor from the states could come down and do the work for free (and in most cases leave behind some extra money as overhead).
2) the interesting trip just might be part of the motivation. It might not, but even if it is, it still provides free labor/materials. But you have to have that motivation from somewhere. The truly altruistic person might write the check. But maybe the friends/family of the altruistic won't write a check unless you are going to go and put some "skin in the game". I personally am more likely to write a check to help send someone somewhere then chip in for every gofundme account link they forward. But in the case of those who need the interesting trip as part of the motivation, if they don't get a trip they don't raise money and they don't go and work. Potentially even more important, they don't go and get their mindset changed. They don't go and become impacted and motivated to help those in need and to have a better context for how bad some other locations have it.

Again, different strokes for different folks. I just don't think it's a clear, "trips are all bad"

 

[LizzyM]

I think this makes two not necessarily proven assumptions:
1) that whoever has the volunteer labor coming in can afford the local labor
2) that the same amount of money would have been raised and donated had the volunteer not been planning on that trip

but that's the point. If someone really wanted to help a village build a new school or install latrines, they could take their money and/or ask family and friends for donations and send the money they would have spent on airfare and "fees" to that place where locals could be hired to do the work? There are plenty of non-profit agencies with long term relationships in some of these places that could use the financial help in a way that would put money into the local economies. But, in the end, it is about buying a vacation that can be touted as "service" and go on the resume. It is about the volunteer, not about the community in need.

 

[deleted480308]

but that's the point. If someone really wanted to help a village build a new school or install latrines, they could take their money and/or ask family and friends for donations and send the money they would have spent on airfare and "fees" to that place where locals could be hired to do the work? There are plenty of non-profit agencies with long term relationships in some of these places that could use the financial help in a way that would put money into the local economies. But, in the end, it is about buying a vacation that can be touted as "service" and go on the resume. It is about the volunteer, not about the community in need.

I don’t think it’s a cut or dry situation. If the goal is “those people over there get help” you have to account for those who value absolute efficiency (and the model you are pitching is the most efficient if someone accepts the questionable premise that all those travelers would do the same amount of fundraising at home)

Some people want an experience as well. It’s arguably less efficient but not at all devoid of altruism. And if we push the notion that no one can/should go on a trip we will likely deprive those areas of some help.

 

[dpmd]

I don’t think it’s a cut or dry situation. If the goal is “those people over there get help” you have to account for those who value absolute efficiency (and the model you are pitching is the most efficient if someone accepts the questionable premise that all those travelers would do the same amount of fundraising at home)

Some people want an experience as well. It’s arguably less efficient but not at all devoid of altruism. And if we push the notion that no one can/should go on a trip we will likely deprive those areas of some help.

Except we aren't pushing the notion that no one should do any trips.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I guess I got confused about what the notion suggested is.

 

[deleted480308]

Except we aren't pushing the notion that no one should do any trips.

I think “we” doesn’t apply to everyone in the thread

 

[dpmd]

I think “we” doesn’t apply to everyone in the thread

I haven't read a single post stating that no one should go on any trip at any time. I have read lots of suggestions of what would be a bad one and recommendations on not doing bad ones.

 

[deleted480308]

No, I actually think more of nonmedical work. I’m an older med student who worked in international development for several years before medical school. I’ve seen so many kids fly over to places like Vietnam or Ghana for a week or two to build schools that don’t get used for education because they can’t be staffed. This is just an example, but the point is, you don’t know what you’re getting into when you go or if the work you’re doing is even wanted or needed. The only way to really know this is to truly know the place you’re going. Locals often don’t want to insult the “superior foreigners”, so they smile and nod and say it’s all good. But often times, if you actually speak to people in these communities, they’d rather these organizations not be there. (Which makes sense because why would they want a bunch of people running around who don’t respect their culture or way of life?) But in order to get to know a place and it’s people and understand what is needed and wanted, you have to know the local language and make connections with people. You can’t do this on a mission trip.

In my professional experience, I’ve never seen a good mission trip or volunteer organization that was in the country short term.

I haven't read a single post stating that no one should go on any trip at any time. I have read lots of suggestions of what would be a bad one and recommendations on not doing bad ones.

that's how I read the above.....its' possible you got a different impression though

 

[dpmd]

that's how I read the above.....its' possible you got a different impression though

He specifically singles out nonmedical stuff and those only there short term.

 

[deleted804295]

It just amazes me that people devoting their time to go overseas is criticized. Guess it’s true- no good deed goes unpunished.

You cannot decipher someone’s motives unless you read their mind. Therefore I judge actions. If you help people, then I’m all for it.

Devoting time to go overseas? Come on man. You can't be serious. You're acting as if these people are being hindered by doing this work. These are the same people who have absolutely no connections, no shared language, and no interest in the country they visit and go there solely to check things off on their resume.

These countries are not completely destitute and in need of that classic western savior. I'm sure teens in their nation are just as qualified to help in health settings as American undergraduate are.

 

[deleted804295]

Sounds like they’ll fit in with medicine quite often

I just doubt these starving people in third world countries are saying “Hmm I’m glad you brought me food and water. But is it really because you have “white savior complex?” What’s your end game here”? No I’m sure they’re thinking “THANK YOU! I was starving!””

You can warp anyone’s reason for doing something any way you want. Psychology tells you more about the analyzer than the analyzee.

I’ve been criticized for going to Iraq, but those people can kiss my ass, because I had people first hand hug me, shake my hand, with tears in their eyes thanking me for coming. That means a lot more to me than some yuppie who has never even been to the Middle East explaining something they’ve never experienced.

Quit it with the sweeping generalizations about individuals in 3rd world nations.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Just speaking based on my personal observations. We were welcomed more than I was not, and definitely provided help that they could not have gotten on their own. I can’t speak for every third world area, but some definitely need all of the help they can get, especially during disasters, or in terror torn areas.


We definitely had a positive impact on the locals. I still keep in touch with some of them.

 

[LizzyM]

Just speaking based on my personal observations. We were welcomed more than I was not, and definitely provided help that they could not have gotten on their own. I can’t speak for every third world area, but some definitely need all of the help they can get, especially during disasters, or in terror torn areas.


We definitely had a positive impact on the locals. I still keep in touch with some of them. View attachment 251102

This is a world of difference than a 19 year old college student flying somewhere for 7-10 days to provide whatever services are provided plus do some local sightseeing and beach combing.

 

[atomi]

This is a world of difference than a 19 year old college student flying somewhere for 7-10 days to provide whatever services are provided plus do some local sightseeing and beach combing.

Don’t forget about the part where they get drunk every night and hook up with the other 19 year olds on the trip.

 

[LizzyM]

Don’t forget about the part where they get drunk every night and hook up with the other 19 year olds on the trip.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Sounds like one hell of a mission trip, getting ***** for god. Hah

Didn’t realize this was a thing... where do you sign up rofl

 

[holdthemayo]

Obviously I'm not an adcom, but I have years of experience living in the developing world and with international development. My spouse still works for a large(ish) development NGO.

Does Engineers Without Borders qualify? They're using their expertise in engineering to help locals.

Whole different animal. That would be a great use of your skills and carries the same reputation of the organizations mentioned above. Keep in mind, they usually require a longer commitment (I think 6 months).

Those are great organizations which require long-term commitments that many people may not be able to do. Additionally DWB (or MSF if you speak Spanish) do not accept anyone but physicians for their trips which require a minimum 9 week commitment unless there are special, extenuating circumstances.

In some places there is no one "already there". I did a few med mission trips and many of the locations we went to were way out in the country/jungle and only saw any kind of physician every 4-6 months. There is no one "already there" providing aid.

I think there is this general mentality that global medical mission trips are bad, which in my experience is just not true. There are plenty which aren't great and are more like volunteer tourism than actually providing relief. However there are also great programs which serve communities who legitimately never receive medical attention or have ongoing presence in communities to provide continued care. Anyone interested just has to do their research on these groups to find the ones which are actually making a difference.

A few corrections here. MSF (french) does typically require longer commitments, but most of their international staff are not physicians. 47% are non-medical (logistics, WASH, security, etc) and another 30% or so are nurses. If you have useful skills they will put them to use. They just don't take people without well honed useful skills. Additionally, more than 80% of their employees are locals. This is part of why they are often held up as a standard.

The second part of your post is spot on, with the caveat that even if there isn't anyone present, sending the average pre-med isn't really an improvement. A qualified healthcare team can make a great difference.

Eh if I volunteer abroad I would be providing nursing service, which is in high demand. Just throwing that out there. And with Mercy Ships, I’d be PAYING a steep price to do so...

As an RN you bring skills and experience that are not readily available in many communities. The criticisms in this thread don't apply to you. It's more directed to college student/recent grad without any applicable training or skills spending thousands of dollars going abroad thinking they are saving the world doing work that literally anyone in the country they are going to could be trained to do just as quickly and for a fraction of the cost.

Fwiw, Mercy ships is a fantastic organization. I have friends who work there long term (both non-medical). Noone in the development community or elsewhere is going to bat a critical eye at you if you volunteer with them.

I don’t think it’s a cut or dry situation. If the goal is “those people over there get help” you have to account for those who value absolute efficiency (and the model you are pitching is the most efficient if someone accepts the questionable premise that all those travelers would do the same amount of fundraising at home)

Some people want an experience as well. It’s arguably less efficient but not at all devoid of altruism. And if we push the notion that no one can/should go on a trip we will likely deprive those areas of some help.

In the time I lived abroad, I never knew a single development worker or missionary who was happy to host a short term high school or college trip. They did it, because it made donors back home happy and potentially made new donors.

Contrast this with the optimism when Smile Train or See international came to town and it was night and day.

Still, half of the people I know who do permanent development work go exposed to it during a "useless" short term trip. It's not black and white, definitely grey.

 

[holdthemayo]

Don’t forget about the part where they get drunk every night and hook up with the other 19 year olds on the trip.

I didn't know we could count spring break in Mexico as a medical missions trip. Looks like my CV just gained a line.

 

[Stagg737]

A few corrections here. MSF (french) does typically require longer commitments, but most of their international staff are not physicians. 47% are non-medical (logistics, WASH, security, etc) and another 30% or so are nurses. If you have useful skills they will put them to use. They just don't take people without well honed useful skills. Additionally, more than 80% of their employees are locals. This is part of why they are often held up as a standard.

I was referring to Medicos sin fronteras (the Spanish branch), but I see the original French acronym is also MSF. True about non-medical staff, but most pre-meds would not meet qualifications for that. I was mostly referring to the point that if one was a typical pre-med on the path to becoming a physician they would not be able to contribute to DWB until they were an actual physician.

 

[holdthemayo]

I was referring to Medicos sin fronteras (the Spanish branch), but I see the original French acronym is also MSF. True about non-medical staff, but most pre-meds would not meet qualifications for that. I was mostly referring to the point that if one was a typical pre-med on the path to becoming a physician they would not be able to contribute to DWB until they were an actual physician.

Totally agree. Also, I love the Okapi picture.

 

[doglova]

I went on global brigades as an undergrad, and to be honest, I felt that if I were actually a doc then maybe I could be helpful but as an undergrad I technically got patient facing experience but I did nothing a local couldn't have done and if my airfare went to medications it would have done a lot more good.

 

[RNtoMD87]

for purposes of medical school admissions, perception matters
1) Many foreign "medical / mission / volunteer " opportunities are promoted, some specifically advertised for enhancing your application. This casts a shadow on the whole category and can affect the perception of an evaluator who will not know which are "good" trips and which are not.
2) with 5,000-10,000 or more applications received by an individual school and the need to reject at least 80% prior to interview invite, taking a foreign "medical / mission / volunteer " trip can present a risk that wholly under your control.
3) Avoid organizations that solely promote short medical tourism seemingly targeted directly at premeds. Unless it is a well known, established organization or direct mission trip, I would think twice about doing one.
4) If you choose to do one, research the organization carefully.

https://www.aamc.org/download/474346/data/clinicalexperiencesshadowingsurvey.pdf

Clinical Experiences Survey Summary:
Executive Summary of GSA Committee on Admissions Survey regarding Clinical Experiences
(emphasis added)

Member schools expressed significant concern with regards to premedical students
engaging in unsupervised clinical activities in international settings. In particular, 45-
50% of those schools completing the survey described applicant involvement in invasive
procedures in international settings as either harmful to, or of no value to, their
application. Examples of such invasive procedures include giving vaccinations, suturing
an injury, pulling teeth, and delivering a baby. This concern of admissions officers
persisted, albeit at lower levels (35-40% of respondents), when the students were
supervised by a health professional while performing such invasive procedures in
international settings.

Eh I hope this only applies to INAPPROPRIATE procedures related to skill level

 

[dpmd]

Eh I hope this only applies to INAPPROPRIATE procedures related to skill level

If the applicant is a nurse doing nursing tasks then I think they would be fine with it.

 

[RNtoMD87]

If the applicant is a nurse doing nursing tasks then I think they would be fine with it.

And suturing and organ removal/dissection done on corpses while assisting with autopsies, kosher?

 

[Stagg737]

Totally agree. Also, I love the Okapi picture.

Thanks. It's just temporary, part of a game we play in the pre-vet forums. Will likely be back to zoidberg pretty soon.

 

[dpmd]

And suturing and organ removal/dissection done on corpses while assisting with autopsies, kosher?

On alive people it wouldn't be (with the caveat that in military it might, I know I did stuff as an lvn that was not allowed in the us). On dead folks seems the rules would be different. At least that is how I view it. Don't know if the adcom folks agree.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Only sutured on dead people so far, lol. In the military, medics and corpsmen did suturing (had one sew me up after a big bar fight) but I wasn’t medical so sadly didn’t get experience in that. Just tourniquets, nasopharyngeal airways and IV starting for combat lifesaver. Nothing a nurse couldn’t do anyway, lol.

 

[Metzer882]

I would argue that unless you plan on going back consistently to help a specific location or community of people, then it's pretty worthless. The amount of actual ''good'' that foreigners do for a place seems to be pretty negligible especially since most of these are short term events. I've been told that a good volunteer organization is one that consistently goes back to the same places on a regular basis and is not religiously affiliated.

I agree with the other poster though. Why try to go out there when there's millions of people who could use your help here?

So, I think I found a group that is different, but they are just starting up. www.wildfirept.com. It looks like they only take PT grad students but any undergrads interested in health. I have been reading their website like crazy and am thinking about applying for a spring or summer trip. It was started by 2 professors, one from the US and one from Peru and they link up students to learn from each other. They are so focused on "sustainability" like you are mentioning and they say they are making it sustainable by having the students learn from each other. They also go into under served communities and run clinics and stuff. I guess one of their main things in making sure that they only make a positive change. My mom's friend, who was talking to people at a big conference, said she heard that on the first trip the one leader who does a lot with concussion did a presentation on what concussions were for students at the university they were at and now she has been invited back to talk to their national association for neuro doctors. I guess they had not even really heard of concussions or what to do about them before that. (then I checked out the site and sure enough, pictures from the talk are there.) That sounds like a big change to me! Anyway, I am hoping to apply to PT school next year and figured it could not hurt to get a good recommendation from a PT professor after a trip I went on with one to help "spread knowledge." I just really think their concept sounds cool and different than anything I was reading elsewhere.

What do you think? I am going to reach out soon. Help me figure out what questions to ask so that I know I am thinking about the right things!