Are there combined neurology residency /PhD programs

[khaled salah]

Are there combined neurology residency /PhD programs in USA … if yes … which universities offer … and is it possible for an img to get into?

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[Thama]

PhDs are something that precedes residency, either as part of an MD-PhD program or independently prior to med school. Residency isn't school, it's a job.

 

[khaled salah]

PhDs are something that precedes residency, either as part of an MD-PhD program or independently prior to med school. Residency isn't school, it's a job.

Neurology and PhD | Icahn School of Medicine
so what is the difference between the program in the link and ordinary residency ??

 

[Thama]

If you read the link, it isn't a separate residency program, rather for people already matched to their program they give you a leave of absence to pursue a PhD Midway through residency. That's a very unusual scenario.

 

[kchan99]

I don't know why a PhD during residency unless the PhD is in an area with a steep learning curve, such as engineering or statistics. Otherwise, an infolded postdoctoral fellowship makes more sense. Unfortunately, in neurology, there are few residency programs with infolded postdoctoral fellowships. A mature example of these programs would be in medicine in which there are combined residency, clinical fellowship and postdoctoral fellowship programs that accept applications from medical students.

 

[oopsy]

PhDs are something that precedes residency, either as part of an MD-PhD program or independently prior to med school. Residency isn't school, it's a job.

This is mostly wrong, except that residency is a job. There are combined residencies that have infolded PhD training. Yale for instance has one, and it's across disciplines (not to any one particular residency program). It's usually a major research center that provides PhD training and most importantly, protected time (postdoctoral time is not guaranteed to be protected, ie-fellowship is an example). You go through a tailored set of standards to develop real research skills and a PhD. Your time is obviously significantly extended, but these certainly do exist and are coordinated between the (usually) basic science department and clinical department. This is however uncommon. Often times, your clinical duties are condensed into a rougher schedule with basically no electives, and then your electives go towards research time plus the extra years you spend doing research. Functionally, you often cram in clinical time up front, go away for a while to do research (or project permitting, take 6 months on/off clinical duties once you're more senior), come back and wrap up residency, and then go back to lab to wrap up PhD. That said, it's very project/residency specific.

The neurology residency at Yale even has a program for a fast-track (much like medicine) where you have 4 months of intern year in the lab, 2 years of neurology residency to wrap up ABPN requirements, and then 2 more years of 90% research time. This is designed essentially to expedite post-doc, distinct from the PhD program. FYI to those who are interested.

 

[Thama]

This is mostly wrong, except that residency is a job. There are combined residencies that have infolded PhD training. Yale for instance has one, and it's across disciplines (not to any one particular residency program). It's usually a major research center that provides PhD training and most importantly, protected time (postdoctoral time is not guaranteed to be protected, ie-fellowship is an example). You go through a tailored set of standards to develop real research skills and a PhD. Your time is obviously significantly extended, but these certainly do exist and are coordinated between the (usually) basic science department and clinical department. This is however uncommon. Often times, your clinical duties are condensed into a rougher schedule with basically no electives, and then your electives go towards research time plus the extra years you spend doing research. Functionally, you often cram in clinical time up front, go away for a while to do research (or project permitting, take 6 months on/off clinical duties once you're more senior), come back and wrap up residency, and then go back to lab to wrap up PhD. That said, it's very project/residency specific.

The neurology residency at Yale even has a program for a fast-track (much like medicine) where you have 4 months of intern year in the lab, 2 years of neurology residency to wrap up ABPN requirements, and then 2 more years of 90% research time. This is designed essentially to expedite post-doc, distinct from the PhD program. FYI to those who are interested.

This is an extremely rare program type, however. It would be confusing to advertise residency/PhD programs to international students, particularly when medical school is considered a master's level program in most of the English speaking world outside of North America.

 

[deleted496821]

This is mostly wrong, except that residency is a job. There are combined residencies that have infolded PhD training. Yale for instance has one, and it's across disciplines (not to any one particular residency program). It's usually a major research center that provides PhD training and most importantly, protected time (postdoctoral time is not guaranteed to be protected, ie-fellowship is an example). You go through a tailored set of standards to develop real research skills and a PhD. Your time is obviously significantly extended, but these certainly do exist and are coordinated between the (usually) basic science department and clinical department. This is however uncommon. Often times, your clinical duties are condensed into a rougher schedule with basically no electives, and then your electives go towards research time plus the extra years you spend doing research. Functionally, you often cram in clinical time up front, go away for a while to do research (or project permitting, take 6 months on/off clinical duties once you're more senior), come back and wrap up residency, and then go back to lab to wrap up PhD. That said, it's very project/residency specific.

The neurology residency at Yale even has a program for a fast-track (much like medicine) where you have 4 months of intern year in the lab, 2 years of neurology residency to wrap up ABPN requirements, and then 2 more years of 90% research time. This is designed essentially to expedite post-doc, distinct from the PhD program. FYI to those who are interested.

I'll echo what oopsy has said here. I completed a clinical Neurology residency and clinical fellowship with in-folded Post-Doc research fellowship (without protected time, which is the key point that oopsy made). This was all after applying to my med school's MD/PhD program after already being admitted to the MD program, and being rejected from the MD/PhD program. I am now in a PhD program in engineering with an infolded MS in Computer Science.

To be the best clinician-scientist, I would say shoot for MD/PhD if you can (to avoid the debt), or alternatively do a PhD before med school or after. I would only complete one of the limited residency/fellowship-PhD programs (Yale as mentioned, UCLA, etc) if you plan on limiting yourself to clinical research. I am not as familiar with Yale's program, but many of the graduates I've met from programs like UCLA's residency/fellowship-PhD program received diluted and expedited PhD training (some receiving a PhD in 3 years for work that would not fly with a qualification committee in a traditional PhD program). If you are doing anything other than clinical research, where a Masters in Clinical Research or a Post-Doc would suffice, then you really need to put-in the time in a traditional PhD program with completely protected time as oopsy notes. Anything computational (Math, EE, CS, etc) as training towards a research career in basic science requires dedicated time unless the student has a strong background (like EECS BS or MS from a top-school). I have a computational-related Masters from a top-5 school and the PhD is still a challenge.

 

[khaled salah]

I'll echo what oopsy has said here. I completed a clinical Neurology residency and clinical fellowship with in-folded Post-Doc research fellowship (without protected time, which is the key point that oopsy made). This was all after applying to my med school's MD/PhD program after already being admitted to the MD program, and being rejected from the MD/PhD program. I am now in a PhD program in engineering with an infolded MS in Computer Science.

To be the best clinician-scientist, I would say shoot for MD/PhD if you can (to avoid the debt), or alternatively do a PhD before med school or after. I would only complete one of the limited residency/fellowship-PhD programs (Yale as mentioned, UCLA, etc) if you plan on limiting yourself to clinical research. I am not as familiar with Yale's program, but many of the graduates I've met from programs like UCLA's residency/fellowship-PhD program received diluted and expedited PhD training (some receiving a PhD in 3 years for work that would not fly with a qualification committee in a traditional PhD program). If you are doing anything other than clinical research, where a Masters in Clinical Research or a Post-Doc would suffice, then you really need to put-in the time in a traditional PhD program with completely protected time as oopsy notes. Anything computational (Math, EE, CS, etc) as training towards a research career in basic science requires dedicated time unless the student has a strong background (like EECS BS or MS from a top-school). I have a computational-related Masters from a top-5 school and the PhD is still a challenge.

am from Egypt i will graduate within 2 years ... my target is to get a guaranteed job ( residency ) and at the same time i love basic neuroscience , it is my interest. so i ask about available options to combine clinical training ( which represent only for me the guaranteed money source ) and basic science research ( which it is my really interest ) .. i cant do separate phd before residency it is impossible for me ..... kindly if you understand me ,list combined programs , or if you have a link

 

[Thama]

Residency programs are extremely competitive for IMGs, particularly the rare kind of high level programs that have the kind of program you are looking for. If your only reason for applying to residency is to have a job to bridge you to 100% basic science, you will neither have a realistic chance of matching nor will you survive the rigors of residency should you manage to match.

 

[Naruhodo]

clinical training ( which represent only for me the guaranteed money source ) and basic science research ( which it is my really interest )

I feel the need to interject that basic science PhDs in the US are funded (ie. guaranteed money source) and you are not expected to support yourself during these degrees. As an international student most US PhD programs that might be interested in you as a candidate would probably offer you a video interview (rather than in-person), but there are definitely a few (like Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory and Rockefeller in New York) that will fly out exceptional international candidates to the US to interview them. Of course, if one program is offering to buy your ticket, you can always reach out to other places that have expressed interest in interviewing you to see if you could schedule your US interviews back-to-back in person (and let the program flying you out the ideal dates for your US trip).

I only point this point this out because you say you are really interested in basic science research, because by no means is either getting accepted nor getting through these PhD programs an easy path. It would certainly be a major detour from your clinical training thus far. Also, unless you also receive outside scholarship support you'd start off earning about half to 2/3 of what residents are paid, but things like subsidized housing is often provided to make it livable. This would allow you to devote yourself full time to basic science research, provide you a visa, etc.

 

[khaled salah]

I feel the need to interject that basic science PhDs in the US are funded (ie. guaranteed money source) and you are not expected to support yourself during these degrees. As an international student most US PhD programs that might be interested in you as a candidate would probably offer you a video interview (rather than in-person), but there are definitely a few (like Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory and Rockefeller in New York) that will fly out exceptional international candidates to the US to interview them. Of course, if one program is offering to buy your ticket, you can always reach out to other places that have expressed interest in interviewing you to see if you could schedule your US interviews back-to-back in person (and let the program flying you out the ideal dates for your US trip).

I only point this point this out because you say you are really interested in basic science research, because by no means is either getting accepted nor getting through these PhD programs an easy path. It would certainly be a major detour from your clinical training thus far. Also, unless you also receive outside scholarship support you'd start off earning about half to 2/3 of what residents are paid, but things like subsidized housing is often provided to make it livable. This would allow you to devote yourself full time to basic science research, provide you a visa, etc.

i know that PhDs in the US are funded but it is not a future guaranteed job for an international student ,plus applying for a phd require GRE and TOEFL , and after all 90% will be rejected , and if i get accepted , simply military call can prevent me from travelling . i will have only one empty year just work 3 hours per day , if this year pass without finishing usmle step 1 , there will be never a chance in the future to study it . so walking through usmle pathway for me is a must , not because i love clinical training , but it is the only guaranteed pathway to get a permanent job , therefore i asked about any possible route to combine basic science (phd) and clinical training ( residency), if i get high scores in usmle and do research in us (ie. basic research for 2 years )

 

[oopsy]

To be clear, to accomplish what you're looking for, you could just as easily do a residency and then post-doctoral research. That's the more common route, but it's not 100% protected time like a PhD. The PhD comes at the cost of not being paid like a clinician while training (or working really). It will be very limiting to find PhD programs combined with residency, sounds like Yale and UCLA are the only ones I know of. However, to do residency and then a post-doctorate fellowship in research, basically any major residency program in an academic center would love you for it. It's hard to give you a list, but if you imagine the big name research institutions in the US, they'll all be happy to have you as a postdoctoral researcher as well.

 

[khaled salah]

To be clear, to accomplish what you're looking for, you could just as easily do a residency and then post-doctoral research. That's the more common route, but it's not 100% protected time like a PhD. The PhD comes at the cost of not being paid like a clinician while training (or working really). It will be very limiting to find PhD programs combined with residency, sounds like Yale and UCLA are the only ones I know of. However, to do residency and then a post-doctorate fellowship in research, basically any major residency program in an academic center would love you for it. It's hard to give you a list, but if you imagine the big name research institutions in the US, they'll all be happy to have you as a postdoctoral researcher as well.

will i master the scientific skills in field like neuroscience in post-doctoral fellowship as in phd , i mean to be qualified enough to innovate / discover something new

 

[Asklepian]

You definitely don't have to have a Ph.D. to make groundbreaking discoveries or advance the science. And neither does having a Ph.D. mean you will go on to do great things in science. It's about you.

 

[neurochica]

There are a number of different programs that offer an MS in clinical and translational research while in residency. You get protected time and get to work with the faculty of your choice.

 

[khaled salah]

You can start residency, apply for R25 grant, in 3rd year, start PhD in the second half of 4th year and continue doing fellowship at the same time.

phd will be in a subject i choose like biochemistry , neuroscience,,etc or in clinical neurology ?? and is this track available in any residency program ?