Are there really no jobs out there?

[star23]

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I have been doing some reading about picking a specialty and multiple sources have commented on the difficulty of finding a suitable job post-residency. For example, Iserson says, " Many recent Pathology residency graduates have had difficulty finding desirable positions." He goes on to say, "Among new residency graduates 45% had difficulty finding a job they preferred; 19% were unemployed at graduation."

What are you hearing throughout the country - is this a problem where you are at?

 

[yaah]

It depends on who you ask. We have had figuratively (I am not going to say literally) thousands of threads on this subject, but the point is you should not pick pathology as a career or reject it because of what you have or have not heard about jobs.

Graduating residents generally have little problem finding a job, is the short version. Those who do fellowships to bump up their qualifications will do better in the job search. If you are coming straight out of residency after 4 years you might have to search a bit.

Allow me to reiterate: you should not pick pathology as a career or reject it because of what you have or have not heard about jobs. Things are always in flux. If you talked to an anesthesiologist 10-15 years ago (or whenever that was) they would have told you it was a hellish career and there were no jobs for anyone. And now look at it.

That being said, you will ALWAYS find people who are disgruntled and can't find a job. My advice is not to take these opinions as universal.

 

[DiePath]

Finding "a" job is very important, what I can't figure is how do you make sure what the prevailing wage is. It's good to find out if one is getting underpaid or (hopefully) overpaid.

 

[Pookies]

Who cares! Path is fun. As long as I am not living in a 1974 station wagon with 3.5 bald tires and 4 cats.

 

[Doctor B.]

Who cares! Path is fun. As long as I am not living in a 1974 station wagon with 3.5 bald tires and 4 cats.

Exactly. I can't even conceive of making a 6 figure salary. I'm still amazed at my resident's salary.

 

[Primate]

Without getting too far into this debate, considering salary is not the evil enterprise that many make it out to be. It is another variable in one's job/career search and deserves appropriate attention. Choosing a field because you love it is great, but totally ignoring the salary issue out of some sense of occupying the moral high ground is a bit naive [whish there were umlots (sp?)]. It's like never doing a DRE on PE because it's somehow beneath you (OK, have fun with that one).

Money isn't everything, but it is something.

P

 

[Gut Shot]

Ah, the fabled job scare circa 1994 rears its head again. While it is purely anecdotal, I have been hearing that the job outlook in pathology is good and currently getting better. None of the path grads from MCV have seemed to have a problem lately. Heck, one of the 2003 grads had to move to a specific area of Colorado (spouse issues) and had three offers in the vicinity.

I have heard the same sentiment echoed by three PD's. One of my brothers (who is a radiologist) recently spoke to a soon-to-be-retired pathologist while performing some X-rays on him. He was upbeat about the job market specifically because the big glut of folks who joined the field in the 1960's are finally, *finally* starting to retire and/or die off.

The fact remains, however, that most pathology jobs are never advertised. They are quietly filled by networking and employers directly contacting residency programs.

 

[RyMcQ]

The fact remains, however, that most pathology jobs are never advertised. They are quietly filled by networking and employers directly contacting residency programs.

This is probably the truest of all true statements ever written on this board. (Okay, I'm being overly dramatic.) In my opinion, you don't want the jobs that are advertised. The pathology groups don't want to search for a pathologist. They want to call program directors or other associates and get people referred to them.

The job market is fine. You might not get to live in a particular town, but you can get a good job in any region of the country if you are a good resident from a good program.

 

[Doctor B.]

Without getting too far into this debate, considering salary is not the evil enterprise that many make it out to be. It is another variable in one's job/career search and deserves appropriate attention. Choosing a field because you love it is great, but totally ignoring the salary issue out of some sense of occupying the moral high ground is a bit naive [whish there were umlots (sp?)]. It's like never doing a DRE on PE because it's somehow beneath you (OK, have fun with that one).

Money isn't everything, but it is something.

P

I agree. Being adequately compensated for one's expertise, time and labor is quite important. But it's easy to get caught up in the high numbers and lose sight of other, more important things. For me, worrying less about salary is not "occupying the moral high ground" but rather a result of being thankful that I'm lucky enough to make such a good living.

 

[LADoc00]

Im not gonna read everyone else's thread because by large most people have no clue wtf they are talking about. JOBS DO MATTER you idiots.

Fact, FACT: there are 3 pathologists looking for a job for every associate opening! That is fact you can confirm this in a number of ways, try to checking the number of posting resumes on the CAP site if you are a member vs. the number of nationwide openings.

You want to be used in some group where the partners are making over a million a year and you cant even afford to take your wife on a nice vacation? Or pay for your kid's college? Or buy a new car? Or live in a decent house? You made it through undergrad and med school, maybe because common sense wasnt part of the curriculum for you!

No, God is not looking out for you and your family! No, lighting that candle at Church and keeping a positive attitude is not going to pay your 4 grand/mo mortgage! The people out there on the street dont give a rat's a$$ that you went into medicine to help people! No one is looking out for you but you. Grow up and think about this crap. Before you are living out of your car. 😡

I worked in a hospital that was a CHARITY med center (ala St Judes) and we had 80+ subpeonas pending. 80+ for the love of God and we didnt even charge alot of those people for the work, we were being litigated against for care we did for free!! That is the state of modern medicine. By and large, the American community has completely turned its back on physicians.

 

[RyMcQ]

Fact, FACT: there are 3 pathologists looking for a job for every associate opening! That is fact you can confirm this in a number of ways, try to checking the number of posting resumes on the CAP site if you are a member vs. the number of nationwide openings.

Okay, I know that this takes a bite out of last month's attempt at victimhood, but many jobs aren't ever advertised. How could you possibly know how many job openings there are nationwide?

When I started cold calling groups, I quickly learned that I was going to end up with a good job somewhere. And by good job, I mean partnership within 2-3 years, nice starting salary (150-200K), incremental bonuses before partnership, at least 6 weeks vacation (plus GME), etc, etc, etc. If I had tried to limit myself to a small geographical area, I would have been screwed. But I knew coming into path that the number of jobs in a given small geographical area can vary greatly. Overall, nationally (and probably even regionally) the job market looks fine. In the two "non-elite" programs in which I've trained, none--none--of the ~30 graduates have struggled in the way you suggest. They had to make a lot of calls and some couldn't move back to their hometown, but they had jobs.

There were zero other applicants for the job I accepted. I called them, they thought about it and decided that the time was right to add another pathologist to the group, and they offered me the job. They didn't feel the need to look further. So not only was the job never listed, it was only open for the time it took to fly for an interview.

I agree that people should go into the process with their eyes open, but you are just trying to scare people while making yourself look like more of a hero by finding a job in such a "terrible" market. Knock it off!

 

[Doctor B.]

Im not gonna read everyone else's thread because by large most people have no clue wtf they are talking about. JOBS DO MATTER you idiots.

Fact, FACT: there are 3 pathologists looking for a job for every associate opening! That is fact you can confirm this in a number of ways, try to checking the number of posting resumes on the CAP site if you are a member vs. the number of nationwide openings.

You want to be used in some group where the partners are making over a million a year and you cant even afford to take your wife on a nice vacation? Or pay for your kid's college? Or buy a new car? Or live in a decent house? You made it through undergrad and med school, maybe because common sense wasnt part of the curriculum for you!

No, God is not looking out for you and your family! No, lighting that candle at Church and keeping a positive attitude is not going to pay your 4 grand/mo mortgage! The people out there on the street dont give a rat's a$$ that you went into medicine to help people! No one is looking out for you but you. Grow up and think about this crap. Before you are living out of your car. 😡

I worked in a hospital that was a CHARITY med center (ala St Judes) and we had 80+ subpeonas pending. 80+ for the love of God and we didnt even charge alot of those people for the work, we were being litigated against for care we did for free!! That is the state of modern medicine. By and large, the American community has completely turned its back on physicians.

I certainly don't appreciate you calling the rest of the people in this post idiots and saying they don't know "wtf they're talking about". I'm not quite sure where you've gotten all of your experience if you're only 30. That's one year older than me and I'm still in residency. The fact that you didn't read everyone's posts above is reflected in your post; none of us are going to ignore salary or jobs. We've just been discussing the relative importance of salary versus other aspects of pathology. Please try to show some professionalism in the future.

 

[Gut Shot]

Please try to show some professionalism in the future.

Better be careful, Dr. B. He might morph into a demigod on soft tissue and toss a lightning bolt down on your a$$!

 

[RyMcQ]

By the way, did you not get that job you were bragging about? You seem a little negative today.

 

[LADoc00]

Ok, I came off as my usual dramatic self....but
Im just sick of people painting **** with a rosey brush. Finding a job in today's pathology job market is hard, no matter who you are unless your name is David Klimstra or Epstein. I would challenge anyone who claimed their last 30 residents from their program had no problem finding good jobs, that program is fictional. Im calling bull**** on that statement.

As I said, this is one person's opinion, your entitled to yours and me mine. Nothing in this business is easy, not even for the people who have all the Ivy Leagues on their side.

If youre struggling with med school/residency under delusion somehow things will magically transform for you, good luck!

I dont say all this to bring people down as much inform people about the problem, it is a problem, everyone in pathology outside of the ivory tower realizes it. Im not saying it is a reason not to pathology if you love it at all! But, to people that are less than motivated, sitting on the fence between rads and derm and path should know this. Pathology reimbursement has problems but few pathologists are willing to actually do anything about it. Unlike our colleagues in rads and cards etc, we are both poor businessmen and pitiful politicians for our cause. I did a focus group for ASCP last year and BY FAR the no1 concern for residents was jobs and the people who complained the loudest were from Hopkins and Chicago, the irony 2 of the better programs. People with their head in sands about this arent doing anyone a favor. Sure you could theoretically get a job with some group in central Kansas, but you have to be happy there.

PS-And I got a rejection from a 400K/year job so yes Im miffed today.
Wanna hear what I call a good job? 400K a year, 3+ months off a year, $10,000 signing bonus, another 10 grand relocation, 5 grand conference fund and 1-2 years to partner. Those type of jobs used to plentiful, now they are maybe 1 per state, if that.

 

[RyMcQ]

I would challenge anyone who claimed their last 30 residents from their program had no problem finding good jobs, that program is fictional. Im calling bull**** on that statement.

Feel free. I'm confident that regulars on this forum will have no difficulty figuring out which of us is spouting BS.

Sure you could theoretically get a job with some group in central Kansas, but you have to be happy there.

You know, no one is arguing that jobs in Southern California are plentiful. I know of two jobs in a nearby Midwest city, one of which pays 640K after partnership. I know you don't want to live there, but guess what? There are people in residency programs around the country who don't want to live in L.A. and you are making it sound like there are no jobs for anyone.

There aren't a huge number of jobs in my home state this year, but I happened to get a good one there. Maybe it's the only job in the state. I had good leads on 5-6 jobs in the region. I didn't sweat at all, and I'm not a star candidate by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe if you were willing to leave L.A., you'd have better luck. Or maybe your bad attitude is getting in the way of a good job. If you are still looking for a job when my group is expanding again in two years, I hope we don't mistakenly interview you.

Edited to remove info that might get a fellow resident in trouble.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

LADoc00,

sorry to hear about the rejection from that phat job.

i was just curious about this gloomy job situation you refer to...do you think, it will get better anytime soon or will the jobs continue to suffer? and how does all of this relate to the job market in academic pathology which i realize is much less paying.

 

[Gut Shot]

LADOC I think that the reason you have trouble finding a job is not the the job market sucks, it's because your an a##hole.

Glad I'm not the only one who is failing to see the big mystery.

 

[LADoc00]

LADoc00,

sorry to hear about the rejection from that phat job.

i was just curious about this gloomy job situation you refer to...do you think it will get better anytime soon or will the jobs continue to suffer? and how does all of this relate to the job market in academic pathology which i realize is much less paying.

Why are people asking me ?s, RyM is the one with the pimped out job not me. Maybe UofIowa (or where he is from) is the ultimate training program, if his residents are getting 640K/yr p-track offers left and right, then it is leagues ahead of the WashU/Brighams of the world.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I was just asking since you seem to have a lot of opinions which must be backed up by knowledge and experience.

 

[LADoc00]

I was just asking since you seem to have a lot of opinions which must be backed up by knowledge and experience.

Dude, I had all the answers I wouldnt be living in a studio apartment driving a beater Honda. Giving the cost of living in LA I would need to be making 2 million plus to have the same quality of life 640K will buy you in Cedar Rapids Iowa, so since Im sure as hell never gonna make that I have no clue what the plan is.

So Im going with plan B, marry a really rich woman and work part time, maybe be a stay at home Dad or some ****. I would be a sick home school parent if I can toot my own horn.

Maybe a single radiologist would work as well....

 

[RyMcQ]

Why are people asking me ?s, RyM is the one with the pimped out job not me. Maybe UofIowa (or where he is from) is the ultimate training program, if his residents are getting 640K/yr p-track offers left and right, then it is leagues ahead of the WashU/Brighams of the world.

I didn't say the jobs are all 640K/year. One job is and they work their butts off (as directors of numerous labs in addition to their large surgpath load).

Every resident I have known in two programs has gotten a job. Even the CP only guy who failed boards got a job. (He's the only one I've known the fail the boards.) A vast majority of these were in private practice. Only one got a job in California (Santa Monica), but most aren't shooting for SoCal. The guy that got the worst job ended up being partner when the lab was sold to AmeriPath and he got his nice cash out. (Of course, now he is a ***** for AmeriPath, but that is another story.) Most jobs start out around 150K and have partnership after 2-3 years, when salary + bonus = ~250-300K. Vacation ranges from 4-17 weeks/year (usually about 6 weeks including CME). General observations: you can make gobs of money if you live in less desireable places/rural areas. You can make 640K, but you have to put up with the smell of Wheaties/puke in the air. Apparently, if you want to live in L.A., you have to work in another field.

On a personal note, I'm not usually one to pile on when someone is down. But when that someone comes in here guns ablazin', calling people idiots (and, in effect, liars), I'm less likely to be nice.

 

[LADoc00]

----->Only one got a job in California (Santa Monica)<--------

Youve given yourself away, you are at UofColorado and are talking about Frost. Small world aint it?

Am I right?

 

[RyMcQ]

----->Only one got a job in California (Santa Monica)<--------

Youve given yourself away, you are at UofColorado and are talking about Frost. Small world aint it?

Am I right?

I am talking about Frost, but not Colorado. And yes, it is clearly a small world.

 

[LADoc00]

I am talking about Frost, but not Colorado. And yes, it is clearly a small world.

Not Colorado, Utah my bad.

Next question is how can LADOC be so DAMN omnipotent. I even scare myself sometimes. And yes if you are Mormon and in Utah, Im sure the world is your oyster. By the way, Frost (the raging Australian, he was a former pro basketball player I think) isnt at Santa Monica anymore.

Didnt the brother of the governor of Utah go to Stanford for path after med school there? That makes you go hmmmmm. But Utah has wicked CP training, that I give it. No idea about AP.


***And folks my 8 oclock show is totally different from my 4oclock magic show, so join me again!

PS-Even LADoc isnt 100% right ALL the time so I called into the residents at UCLA (anon of course) and they have people with 3 fellowships including derm and GI who still dont have offers for next year, so especially in California things are super competitive this year. Personally Im not happy with anything on the table for me at the moment. Maybe time to head East....(puts cowboy hat on)

 

[yaah]

OK, you all know what? There isn't any reason to be rude about things and throw out profanities and insults. If you have something constructive to say, or if you want to post your opinions and insights or experience, that is highly welcome. But let's tone down the attitude.

There is enough room for all kinds of opinions and viewpoints. No one here is 12 years old. We can all take criticism and poking fun, but let's not poison the atmosphere. So watch your tongues please.

 

[RyMcQ]

By the way, Frost (the raging Australian, he was a former pro basketball player I think) isnt at Santa Monica anymore.

I hope is wasn't because of mistreatment by his associates. Mick is a good guy. It actually looks like he moved up the coast.

Didnt the brother of the governor of Utah go to Stanford for path after med school there? That makes you go hmmmmm. But Utah has wicked CP training, that I give it. No idea about AP.

I remember him interviewing at Utah, but I'm not sure he ranked high enough on our ranklist to match. I don't think the guv (now the current EPA administrator) tried to intervene on his behalf. AP at Utah can be hit or miss. My attitude about "big names" and training was soured somewhat by training with the cytopathologist who is pretty well known worldwide. He is a great teacher when he wants to be, which is not often. He also does a lot of surg path, which can be excellent when he's in a good mood. So whenever I imagine training with the big names that you mention, I (probably unfairly) imagine that it is like signing out with our "hot shot".

In spite of its problems, the program at Utah typically doesn't have to go down their ranklist too far because people want to come for the skiing, mountain biking, and outdoor stuff in general. And as you mentioned, CP there rules. It's a pretty friendly program with some great benefits, and as I've mentioned, people seem to have little trouble getting fellowships/jobs. Maybe this is a reflection of the individuals they attract rather than the excellence of the program. In my case, I'm not so sure the job hunt would have been so easy if I hadn't left for fellowships in surgical pathology and hemepath.

By the way, when you say I've given myself away, I hope you aren't implying that I'm about to be stalked. 😀