Are these figures accurate?

[Squiggy]

---

Members do not see this ad.

LoL I changed my question so this does not match up to the title at all.

Quick question: (not asking for medical advice mind you) I recieved a ton of goose meat and venison from a friend. Is it ok to feed my dog the stuff raw or should I cook it for them first? Also, can I use it as a complete substitute for dog food? I'm kind of nervous about feeding her raw meat because I'm thinking she might turn wolf on me or something.

 

[HeartSong]

No! *takes deep breath* Okay, sorry, this whole raw diet craze gets me riled up sometimes. First off, you can feed it raw if you are completely, 100%, totally without a doubt sure that the animals were free from disease/parasites before death and there is no possible way that the meat was at any time improperly handled after the death of the animals to ensure that they have never been contaminated with bacteria from the environment.

Second, absolutely, no way ever, do not completely substitute this as a complete diet. In fact, this meat should not make up more that 10% of your dog's diet unless you have a diet designed by a canine nutritionist to make sure the diet is complete and balanced. There is so much that goes into dietary needs for a dog ... vitamins, minerals, and yes dogs DO need vegetables (or at least the nutrition that can be obtained from them). Think about it, in the wild, a canine will eat the entire animal - organs, eyeballs, stomach contents, bones, hooves, marrow, fur. Muscle meat alone comes no where near being the same as a "wild diet" as so many believe.

 

[ri23]

Do you eat raw meat? If not, there is probably a reason for that. Animals are subject to some of the same things people are.

Also - meat is nowhere near a complete and balanced diet. There are probably a whole lot more medical issues from people feeding BARF and raw diets than there were from the food recalls. It is best to feed a commercially prepared diet that has gone through AAFCO feeding trials (it will say that on the bag).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

There are probably a whole lot more medical issues from people feeding BARF and raw diets than there were from the food recalls


whoa....whoa....where on earthh are you getting that? That's 150% not true.....nothing of the sort. No offense, but do more research into raw before making blanket statements like that There's no data to even remotely support that.

Of course just meat isn't balanced. The BARF and raw diets are not just meat...it is meat, bones, organ meats, veggie mashes, all from various sources. Many people also do whole prey model diet.

*waits for Electrophile to get all up in this thread* 😉 I would but I'm sooo friggin busy right now...

Bottom line: The healthiest dogs I have ever seen are raw fed (meat, bone, 10 to 15% organ meat, 5% veggie mash). I have several friends who own farms and have working border collies and flock guards (Maremmas, etc) and they are all fed raw....

I have never seen such healthy, capable dogs. If this diet was so terrible.....why aren't these dogs (and the thousands of other dogs fed this way) plagued with nutritional problems and deficiencies??

You can't compare a human eating raw meat to a dog eating raw meat. Totally different length of digestive tract. Etc etc etc.....

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

And no, feeding raw meat does not cause any behavioral changes. Your dog will not "turn wolf" on you 🙂

If you are going to feed her any meat, raw or cooked, and she is not used to it, feed it slowly. Many dogs are so used to kibble that they can no longer handle immediately what their stomachs were meant to handle....

If you are interested in feeding raw, do a lot of research. It isn't just throwing the dog a steak every day, it has to be balanced just like any other diet.

 

[VAgirl]

I'd also very much air on the side of caution when it comes to doing a home prepared diet. We just did a nutrition lab using Balance It software, and it boggled my mind to see how many supplements had to be added to the home prepared diet to make sure that the animal was receiving enough of all of the necessary nutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc.). I believe I ended up with my fictional dog requiring 2 human multivitamins, 3 calcium supplement tabs, 2 phosphorus supplement tabs, and 3 choline supplement tabs EVERY DAY.

Ok, now I probably could have put in some extra time tweaking my diet, adding some protein sources with calcium (cottage cheese) and choline (eggs), so that might have helped some, but honestly, it's quite the undertaking.

Also, just a side comment...I've read several comments from people on these boards saying that UC Davis's nutrition program has a fabulous reputation. So far, I've yet to meet a nutritionist at Davis that has indicated they believe there are merits in a raw food diet. According to them, the major index used to assess reported increases in health of raw diet animals is shinier hair coat, which they say can be attributed to the higher fat of the diet. The nutrition faculty (the ones I've met) also seem to strongly advocate against home prepared diets unless treating a disease condition where commercially prepared diets aren't cutting it (animal won't eat it, etc.). I'm not sure if this is because the professors I've met are of the "old guard" (they're not old, not even all middle aged), but I thought it was curious.

I don't know much about the topic of nutrition personally (despite studying for an exam in it tomorrow🙄), I just thought I'd chime in with those 2 comments. 🙂

 

[No Imagination]

Is all the work that goes into such a balanced diet worth it? Please don't say "If you love your dog enough it is". It seems very expensive and very time consuming, and I doubt most humans eat nearly as balanced a diet.

As an academic exercise, or research in food industry I can totally understand, if nothing more than to create better commercial foods.

Guess my question is, When you're a vet, would you recommend, that your clients do these diets (I understand that your not going to tell everyone they have to do it (think you said that in another thread))?

Also, VAGirl, what would the program tell you if you fed the ingredients of a commercial diet into it (not sure if that level of information (ingredients) is available to the general public)?

 

[VAgirl]

Also, VAGirl, what would the program tell you if you fed the ingredients of a commercial diet into it (not sure if that level of information (ingredients) is available to the general public)?

My understanding is that it has many commercial diets in it, but not many prescription diets as those are harder to keep up with the formulations. So yes, you can enter the diet name and it'll show you how balanced it is.

The part of the website we used (with the nutritional balancing software) has a log in, but there are other unrestricted parts that I haven't investigated, so I don't know what's available there. http://www.balanceit.com/_vetstudent/ (was where we were), http://www.balanceit.com/ is the main website.

 

[ri23]

There are probably a whole lot more medical issues from people feeding BARF and raw diets than there were from the food recalls


whoa....whoa....where on earthh are you getting that? That's 150% not true.....nothing of the sort. No offense, but do more research into raw before making blanket statements like that There's no data to even remotely support that.

Of course just meat isn't balanced. The BARF and raw diets are not just meat...it is meat, bones, organ meats, veggie mashes, all from various sources. Many people also do whole prey model diet.

*waits for Electrophile to get all up in this thread* 😉 I would but I'm sooo friggin busy right now...

Bottom line: The healthiest dogs I have ever seen are raw fed (meat, bone, 10 to 15% organ meat, 5% veggie mash). I have several friends who own farms and have working border collies and flock guards (Maremmas, etc) and they are all fed raw....

I have never seen such healthy, capable dogs. If this diet was so terrible.....why aren't these dogs (and the thousands of other dogs fed this way) plagued with nutritional problems and deficiencies??

You can't compare a human eating raw meat to a dog eating raw meat. Totally different length of digestive tract. Etc etc etc.....

While my statement was purely anecdotal from experience, reading things in VIN, and talking to nutritionists, I believe it is probably correct. Most people that do Raw and BARF diets do them incorrectly. The few people that do them correctly, probably do get good results, but that is by far the minority of people. Most veterinary nutritionists do not advocate that people try these diets, as they usually don't take the time to research and prepare them appropriately. Yes, I am speaking in generalizations and this may not be true for some people, but for the majority it is.

 

[StealthDog]

Just a few thoughts...

First, why is it that the human nutrition world is encouraging fresh, unprocessed foods and lots of variety, but the pet nutrition world is so keen on feeding only a single, processed commercial diet for life?

Second, let's review what an AAFCO feeding trial consists of. All it means is that the diet is fed to 8 animals, 6 of which have to make it through the trial (2 animals can be dropped with no explanation of why), being fed a diet for 6 months, and they can lose up to 15% of their body weight. I mean... it's good to have a company that at least feeds the food to real animals, but I think we hold "tested by AAFCO feeding trials" to a really high standard, which it just isn't. Alpo and Ol' Roy have been through feeding trials, but that doesn't mean I'd feed them.

I'm not arguing that a homemade diet is easy, or something everyone should do, but there is a philosophy in the vet world that it's brain surgery. We feed ourselves and grow our children on food that isn't complete and balanced, and we're living longer than ever too. There are pet owners who are willing and able to do what it takes to make a balanced homemade diet at home. It's a bonding experience, and it allows owners to have strict control over the type of quality of foods they're feeding. It's not impossible to feed homemade!

 

[VAgirl]

We feed ourselves and grow our children on food that isn't complete and balanced, and we're living longer than ever too. There are pet owners who are willing and able to do what it takes to make a balanced homemade diet at home. It's a bonding experience, and it allows owners to have strict control over the type of quality of foods they're feeding. It's not impossible to feed homemade!

One of the interesting points made by my nutrition professors is that human multivitamins supplement at nearly 100% of the necessarily daily levels of vitamins and minerals. On the other hand, veterinary vitamins/supplements generally do not provide this level of supplementation. They claimed the result of this is that people are lulled into a false sense of nutritional balance when they feed their animals chicken and rice plus veterinary supplements, when in fact that animal is not receiving proper nutrition. This is based off of their own (I presume) extensive experience. Maybe they're seeing just the most extreme cases since they're at a veterinary referral hospital? I don't know, but they make some very interesting points.

And no, this stuff shouldn't be rocket science, but at the same time, not many people have a common sense repository about what makes good nutrition for animals. There are enough differences that it's not simply intuitive like some might argue properly balancing our own diets is.

 

[HeartSong]

We feed ourselves and grow our children on food that isn't complete and balanced, and we're living longer than ever too.

Wait, what? Um, this generation is expected to be the unhealthiest generation in at least a long time if not ever. Sure, we live longer that's because we can completely destroy our bodies and then turn to doctors to make all better again. Now granted, going into a medical profession I suppose raising unhealthy animals with loads of medical needs could be beneficial to me financially, but really, I'd much rather them be healthy to begin with. Obesity, in humans and in animals, is a huge epidemic. But also look at how many more people than ever are depressed, get sick easily, need surgery, get cancer, etc. Yeah, we all kinds of drugs and medical knowledge to fix that ... but aren't we always taught that prevention is worth more than cure. If you think that we are perfectly fine because we can eat like crap and then just fix it down the line so that we can "live longer than ever" ... you might want to think a little harder on that one. What is more important? Live longer or living healthier? Why do you think there is such a movement in human diets to go organic and have healthier choices at restaurants?

Second point, we as humans have cravings and can act on them. Now granted, many people just eat junk food instead of listening to their bodies to see what they are really needing. But the bottom line is that we CAN feel what our body is needing (craving something sweet - fruit, something hearty -meat or protein, etc) and choose what to eat based on that. We don't give our animals that option, we sit it in front of them and tell them to eat. Even if we feed our children that way, they eventually grow up and for most of their lives can choose on their own what they want to eat.

So yeah, I think it is important to feed animals as complete and balanced a diet as you can. If you positive you can do that on your own, go for it. If not, research dog foods to find out which company does the best job of doing the hard work for you (kibble, canned, BARF, whatever). Don't throw a bunch of meat and veggies down in front of them and call it good.

 

[tealamutt]

I can't believe you got all this free meat and are giving it to the DOG! My valentine's day present is a visit from my boyfriend and all the venison and goose he got this season... free meat? I might share, but the dog won't be eating that good!!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The few people that do them correctly, probably do get good results, but that is by far the minority of people. Most veterinary nutritionists do not advocate that people try these diets, as they usually don't take the time to research and prepare them appropriately.

Its more than a few people that do it correctly...I actually haven't even heard of anyone doing it wrong or having problems with it, and I know a large number of raw feeders both personally and via professional and layperson communities....but I agree that people do do it wrong. But many people feed their dog "wrong" in terms of kibble (ie Old Roy, improper kidney diets, improper large breed puppy diets) as well.

The problem is nutrition education, not a type of diet per se.

It bothers me that instead of educating clients as to how to feed a correct raw diet, which produces very healthy dogs, they simply say no. As vets (especially specialists) we are in the business of educating people as well as treating animals. Vets need to be taught more (or independently learn more) about these diets so they can feel comfortable working with a client designing these diets, just as they know so much about all the crazy science diet acronyms...not just saying "don't do it" because they think clients are all incapable of doing it.

I'm sorry, I realized I'm not really answering the OP! In terms of this meat, since you don't know exactly where it came from, I would be careful feeding it. Give her a little as see how she does. If you personally are worried about external contamination, blanch the outside or just go ahead and cook it. Do what you feel comfortable with. Basically, it doesn't *need* to be cooked, but you can if you think it would upset her tummy from not being used to meat/raw food.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Also damn, I gotta agree with tealamutt...venison...mmmmm.

My dog gets raw marrow bones with meat still on and the occasional beef heart, pig stomach, chicken gizzards, etc. Mostly organ meats but if I get some rabbit she gets actual cuts. I don't feed her 100% raw at the moment because I don't have many reliable suppliers. She's never gotten any sort of food poisoning, any sort of deficiency, her blood tests are marvelous, etc. She is six y.o. and has NO, repeat NO tartar on any teeth from the bones, especially (before the bones at 3 y.o. she had a noticeable amount...rawhides and Nylabones and all that did nada). Can't beat marrow bones (raw, NOT cooked...cooked bones splinter!)

 

[Squiggy]

I can't believe you got all this free meat and are giving it to the DOG! My valentine's day present is a visit from my boyfriend and all the venison and goose he got this season... free meat? I might share, but the dog won't be eating that good!!

Lol, thanks for the replies everybody.

I've got a couple dozen pounds of each. My friend goes on a rampage every waterfowl season. I'm pretty sure he goes well over the bag limit (is it per season or per day?). The thing is, he's not too fond of eating game so I always receive a fridge full of meat this time year. It's going to take forever to eat this alone.

Could I substitute the meat for half his dog food and give him multivitamins (the same I'm taking) or something

 

[VAgirl]

Could I substitute the meat for half his dog food and give him multivitamins (the same I'm taking) or something

Pardon me for possibly being snarky, but this is the kind of attitude that makes it tough to do home cooked diets. It's actually hard work to make sure that you're doing it right and asking people on a message board about a sort of half baked plan sounds like just the kind of situation that will result in your animal becoming deficient in the nutrients it needs.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

give him multivitamins (the same I'm taking)

You mean human multivitamins? 😱 Er...no. Iron and A overdose, depending on the brand, can be a big deal. Dogs have very different vitamin/mineral mg intake needs than humans. I've heard of it being done....but I'd steer very clear of it.

 

[twelvetigers]

You should probably just go see a local veterinarian and tell them exactly what you have and what you'd like to do with it, and they should be able to guide you in the right direction.

 

[ri23]

Pardon me for possibly being snarky, but this is the kind of attitude that makes it tough to do home cooked diets. It's actually hard work to make sure that you're doing it right and asking people on a message board about a sort of half baked plan sounds like just the kind of situation that will result in your animal becoming deficient in the nutrients it needs.

My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, this is what typically happens in the normal pet owning population. What is good for me is good for my pet; hence dogs getting tylenol or ibuprofen and coming in for emergency treatment later.

 

[VAgirl]

give him multivitamins (the same I'm taking)

You mean human multivitamins? 😱 Er...no. Iron and A overdose, depending on the brand, can be a big deal. Dogs have very different vitamin/mineral mg intake needs than humans. I've heard of it being done....but I'd steer very clear of it.

We actually used human multivitamins in our simulation/lab the other day where we created diets and it worked out ok (not ideal for all values, granted, but nowhere near toxicities...mostly just excesses within the "safe" range in the water soluble vitamins). But I'd never feel comfortable doing this type of thing in a living breathing animal without comparing each nutrient's range of acceptable values between deficiency and toxicity (and then consulting a veterinary nutritionist to really get the correct answer since, honestly, what the heck do I know?😀)

 

[pressmom]

One thing that no one has mentioned, diets need to be changed slowly!!! I tried to switch my dachshund to EVO and I did it too quickly and he got raging diarrhea.

Also, the newest generation of kids is the first in many generations to have a SHORTENED life span than the generation before. The reason: obesity.

I also agree that dogs eat what you put in front of them. It's up to you to make sure it is balanced, healthy, and palatable. Raw diets can do this, but they are a fair bit of work. You have to be willing to obtain the right nutrients, assemble them, and serve them everyday. It is easier for the majority of people to take a scoop into dry kibble and feed the dog. (And many people manage to get this wrong, look at all the obese dogs!) Raw diets aren't for everyone--they are for very nutritionally educated people and people who are willing to make a long term commitment to feeding their dogs this way.

Also, never underestimate the stupidity of your clients. If they are feeding raw, ask them exactly how they are doing it. A large cat came into an exotics practice I was shadowing at on emergency. Turns out it was being fed boneless, skinless chicken breast and one of it's bones broke just in performing the PE.

 

[StealthDog]

If you think that we are perfectly fine because we can eat like crap and then just fix it down the line so that we can "live longer than ever" ... you might want to think a little harder on that one.

I'm not sure why, when I say people are living longer than ever on unbalanced diets, you assume that I mean unhealthy diets? Unbalanced just means that humans aren't eating a perfect ratio of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients every single day. I don't know of any of us, regardless of how healthy we eat, that eats a diet that you could plug into BalanceIt-type software. That's the disconnect I mentioned between human nutrition and animal nutrition- in animal nutrition, we have this idea that a consistent diet that is complete and balanced is the epitome of "healthy", totally forgetting about the importance of the ingredients that go into the diet. I think it's Hills that loves to use the example that you could make a complete and balanced diet out of cardboard (carbs), a boot (protein), and motor oil (fats), but that doesn't mean a dog could survive on it. But "Dogs need nutrients, not ingredients", right?

You and I agree on most things (that good nutrition is the best preventative medicine, etc)- I just come to the conclusion that feeding my dog a perhaps slightly unbalanced diet made of whole, fresh ingredients is a healthier route than feeding a 100% complete and balanced extruded kibble.

I just think it's bizarre that we trust ourselves to perform surgery, interpret radiographs, alter the immune and endocrine systems, treat congestive heart failure- and yet we don't trust ourselves to be able to figure out what to feed a normal, healthy adult dog if it isn't a commercial food? How do humans manage to live for 80, 90, 100 years without eating a diet formulated by a nutritionist?

 

[HeartSong]

I'm not sure why, when I say people are living longer than ever on unbalanced diets, you assume that I mean unhealthy diets?

Unbalanced is unhealthy. I'm not talking just obesity, though that is the biggest factor currently. But also osteporosis, folic acid deficiency, vitamin deficiencies and the list could go on. Those are just ones we KNOW are from unbalanced diets. I also believe a lot of health issues are from unbalaced thus unhealthy diets.

Just something to think about. Consider how many cats died from taurine deficiency before we figured out that they needed it in the diet (and for any cat where people feed it a dog food only). One simple amino-acid is vital to life for cats. Bottom line - an unbalanced diet IS an unhealthy diet.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

One simple amino-acid is vital to life for cats. Bottom line - an unbalanced diet IS an unhealthy diet.

I think what Stealth Dog meant was that all unbalanced diets are unhealthy, but not all unhealthy diets are unbalanced.

 

[StealthDog]

Unbalanced is unhealthy.

Unbalanced in exactly the same way every single day is unhealthy- unbalanced daily, but with variety day-to-day, is how humans eat most of the time. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning obesity as an example of an unbalanced diet- too many calories equals obesity, which can be caused by a perfectly nutritionally balanced diet fed (or eaten) in excess.

We should also remember that taurine-deficient feline diets were considered 100% complete and balanced at the time, and likely passed AAFCO feeding trials. The cats who got sick were cats eating the same diet, every day, for months and months. The cats eating a slightly varied, likely unbalanced diet (on a day-to-day basis) of mice and shrews and whatever didn't get DCM. Just because we can make a food that contains 100% of everything that we know animals need to live for a long long time doesn't mean it contains everything that animals need period. We still have plenty to learn about nutrition!

Commercial food companies do their best to research and then adapt their formulas to what the science says, I'm not denying that- but the ultimate goal for them is still to provide a product that is convenient for the consumer. There is no way to reconcile convenience with feeding fresh foods (with the possible exception of the new Innova Flex diets).

 

[No Imagination]

- too many calories equals obesity, which can be caused by a perfectly nutritionally balanced diet fed (or eaten) in excess.

Thats not entirely true.

I know next to nothing in terms of diets or even balancing, but there is a lot of new work in a kinda old field, but gaining new momentum, called "Metabolic Channeling", where metabolic pathways are semi-permanently shifted based on available nutrients. Enzyme complexes like the Pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (start of TCA) can have associated Km's changed based on available nutrients. Its especially well documented in the regulatory enzymes of glycolysis.

It ends up, a calorie =/= a calorie depending on these metabolic shifts in an organs metabolism (I should say, not all food contains the same amount of calories depending on the metabolic state) - I doubt these shifts are taken into account with these diets, but it may be worth looking into, as animals are usually on them long term with little variety.

Of course, too many calories are bad, but too much anything is bad.

If this is a subject any nutritionists or biochemists are interested in, let me know, I have a few good papers on work that explain it better then i just did.

Ovadi (Hungarian enzymologist) is a good place to start for the basics

 

[HeartSong]

I think what Stealth Dog meant was that all unbalanced diets are unhealthy, but not all unhealthy diets are unbalanced.

Umm, no. You obviously haven't been following the discussion. StealthDog is trying to make the point that you don't have to worry about balancing a diet because people eat unbalanced and incomplete diets and we are living longer than ever (see response #9).

I then invalidated that point by pointing out that people are unhealthier now because of all kinds of nutrient deficiencies. However, it now seems that StealthDog believes that people are healthy (don't get osteoporosis, folic acid deficiency, etc) because we, afterall, eat a variety of food day by day. I believe that people are unhealthy because we don't pay much if any attention to our diet so therefore we get sick from it. I think we disagree on whether or not people eat healthy diets or rather if people can be healthy dispite our diets. Since we can't agree on that point, we will never agree on how we should design our pets' diets.

 

[StealthDog]

However, it now seems that StealthDog believes that people are healthy (don't get osteoporosis, folic acid deficiency, etc) because we, afterall, eat a variety of food day by day.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Absolutely, there are people who are unhealthy because they eat crummy. And people who eat a good diet tend to live longer, better-quality lives. If I following your argument, you're saying that the only healthy diet is one that's balanced, which is why the healthiest pet foods are "100% complete and balanced" commercial diets. But when you think of a healthy human diet, what is it? Is it 100% "complete and balanced" every day? Does it need to be? Or can we survive (and thrive) with a diet that is varied day-to-day, but balanced over time? How do you (personally) make sure that your diet is balanced- do you calculate it out each day?

Pet nutrition relies on the assumption that pets are fed the same thing every day. It's the same way we feed livestock- kibble is a convenient way to feed a large number of animals an identical diet. It makes things like calculating a recipe with BalanceIt easy. As soon as we drop the assumption that every meal is identical, it gets too hard to figure out the whole "complete and balanced" thing- and once we can't measure it, we tend to throw it out the window. (it goes for more than just nutrition- i.e., the AVMA refuses to take a stance on pig confinement since we don't have a great way to measure how stressed out it makes a pig to be confined in a small pen)

I'm not asking you to agree with me about how to feed our pets. I'm just saying that I'm perfectly comfortable with a diet that changes day-to-day, both for myself and my pupper. There is no reason that the recommendations for good human nutrition should differ from the recommendations for good pet nutrition. The handy-dandy nutrition.gov says "A "healthy diet" is one that provides enough of each essential nutrient, contains a variety of foods from all of the basic food groups, provides adequate energy to maintain a healthy weight, and does not contain excess fat, sugar, salt or alcohol." Good enough for me, good enough for my dog.

ETA: I do realize that the majority of the pet-owning population wouldn't be able to feed a diet sufficient in nutrients, fats, etc without relying on commercial pet foods...

 

[ratbandit]

Sorry I didn't read this whole post, but does anyone know if geese can have the same sarcocystis infections that duck breast meat can have?

 

[Electrophile]

I would suspect that, as with many parasites besides the hardcore Trichinella parasites in wild game (cougar jerky, yum!), freezing the meat for a period would likely kill them. The Merck Manual reports:

Experimental work demonstrated that infected pork could be made safe for consumption by cooking at 70°C for 15 min or by freezing at -4°C for 2 days or -20°C for 1 day.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/91600.htm

Any uncooked meat I feed to the dogs is frozen at least 3 weeks before giving it to them. And no bear or cougar meat. 😉

Of course just meat isn't balanced. The BARF and raw diets are not just meat...it is meat, bones, organ meats, veggie mashes, all from various sources. Many people also do whole prey model diet.

*waits for Electrophile to get all up in this thread* 😉 I would but I'm sooo friggin busy right now...

You rang?

Regarding completeness, my snakes doesn't eat kibble and they can live 20-40+ years in captivity eating whole mice and rats. So yeah, basically, if you do a raw diet, you'll really to duplicate those prey items. People who claim to be feeding a whole prey model diet but just do chicken necks and quarters and some occcasional liver ain't cutting it. You have to do a veggie blend and/or green tripe, edible bones, and organ meats, just as WTF (haha) said.

Speaking of nutrition software, I ran a week's worth of a typical raw diet through the Zootrition software to turn it into a day's (added up all the stuff I'd feed in average week and divided each ingredient by 7) and it actually came out pretty well, even with really pretty minimal supplementing. The other thing I like about that program is that you can use whole prey items since it's for zoo animals as well as domestic species. One thing that is problematic about nutrition software is that some values for some nutrients for some foods have not really been evaluated, researched, or updated, or there was a small sample size. So there is going to be tremendous variation. I try to look stuff up here when I can:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
http://nutrition.whatfoods.com/nutrition/

Also, regarding human nutrition, if a company came out with a granola bar kind of thing that they GUARANTEED could cover your nutritional needs FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE (with a kid formula, lactating and pregnant woman formula, and senior formula, of course) because they fed it to 8 people for six months and did very minimal blood work and made sure the people didn't lose more than 15% of their body weight and only 2 died during the trial, would you seriously eat it? Thanks but no thanks! Besides the fact that I'm a foodie at heart, we don't know everything there is to know about human and animal nutrition. About every 5-10 years, there seems to be a paradigm shift in nutrition and I don't want to ever presume to know more than mother nature.

That being said, I don't really do much raw feeding currently for a number of reasons (mostly $$ since I'm the Natura student rep and free is much cheaper than $300-400 a month on 4 dogs), but I have done it successfully for about 4 years now. No perforations, good blood work, good radiographs, I'm not coming down with salmonella or E. coli every other day. I won't go out of my way to recommend it to people, but people are going to do it whether you tsk tsk them or not, so might as well do it correctly, I say.

 

[StealthDog]

Okay, I've been thinking about this. I think a big disconnect comes from two different opinions about nutrition- one that thinks animal nutrition should head in the direction of human nutrition (fresh foods, fewer processed foods, variety), while the other thinks that human nutrition should head in the direction of animal nutrition (more foods designed to make it easier to eat a complete and balanced diet- I hear people say "I wish Hill's made a People Diet" on a regular basis).

 

[Electrophile]

I agree, StealthDog. I'm all about nutrition research (trying to do a really cool nutrition research project this summer actually), but I still think it is best to look at the ancestral diet of the animal in question. Everyone in the know in zoo/exotics medicine knows that when you vary too much in the diet the animal was designed to eat, you get problems. Why we try to reinvent the wheel getting dogs and cats to eat diets more similar to rodents than canids and felids (other than to make $$$) is beyond me.

 

[VAgirl]

The concern that I think I and several other people have is that, most people who are going to feed a home prepared diet aren't going to be varying it. They're going to get a recipe, make it, and keep making it. So the benefit you're getting from varying your foods and the balancing over the long run is probably not there. So in that sense, I'd rather have a commercially prepared balanced food rather than an imbalanced one that is home prepared where the animals will be getting the same unbalanced food every day forever.

I think it's hard enough to get one reliable home prepared recipe, let alone enough to vary it up while feeling reasonably confident that they're balanced even in the obvious ways (taurine for cats, enough calcium especially for growing animals, not feeding deficient or toxic levels of things--Vit A comes to mind if you're throwing in organ meats like liver, and on and on for all the topics in nutrition we haven't covered yet😀.)

I think that's where the disconnect comes from in this discussion. Sure, I think fresh food is better than extruded kibble, if done right. I just think (and I think HeartSong is on this same page) that the chances of it being done right are slim for your average Joe. (Electrophile, StealthDog, you guys are not the average Joe...or even the average Josephine for that matter).

 

[HeartSong]

Okay, I've been thinking about this. I think a big disconnect comes from two different opinions about nutrition- one that thinks animal nutrition should head in the direction of human nutrition (fresh foods, fewer processed foods, variety), while the other thinks that human nutrition should head in the direction of animal nutrition (more foods designed to make it easier to eat a complete and balanced diet- I hear people say "I wish Hill's made a People Diet" on a regular basis).

Hmm, I'm of the third opinion. Both should be going in their own direction toward a healthy, well-researched, well-planned out balanced and complete diet. Now whether that diet is balanced day-by-day or week-by-week (as the government is now starting to lean toward) doesn't really matter to me. I don't think it would be wise to go longer than a week without a required nutrient. I do believe that a kibble diet should be on a rotational diet, that doesn't mean I think it has to be that way. And why can't you have both variety and balance?

But I believe it does take hardwork to ensure a diet is healthy. As you quoted from the government "A “healthy diet” is one that provides enough of each essential nutrient," you (and any average joe) is going to have to do research if they want to make sure they are getting each essential nutrient in their diet (or their pets').

I know I don't in mine. But I can't afford a nutritionist to tell me what I'm missing in my diet. Sometime I take supplements, I try to eat good choices from each food group and sometimes I say forget it, I'll live with the consequences. But I don't want my dogs' to live with the consequences of me feeding them whatever I feel like without researching what I'm feeding them or doing minimal research and thinking that is enough. They can't make that choice for themselves. Their health is our responsibility.

 

[HeartSong]

Sure, I think fresh food is better than extruded kibble, if done right. I just think (and I think HeartSong is on this same page) that the chances of it being done right are slim for your average Joe. (Electrophile, StealthDog, you guys are not the average Joe...or even the average Josephine for that matter).

Exactly. 👍

 

[Nexx]

I agree, StealthDog. I'm all about nutrition research (trying to do a really cool nutrition research project this summer actually), but I still think it is best to look at the ancestral diet of the animal in question. Everyone in the know in zoo/exotics medicine knows that when you vary too much in the diet the animal was designed to eat, you get problems. Why we try to reinvent the wheel getting dogs and cats to eat diets more similar to rodents than canids and felids (other than to make $$$) is beyond me.

Is this where we start to debate how much like a wolf a chihuahua or a great dane is?

I'm too lazy to look at the moment, but it IS on my list to do--but I'd wager to guess while the diets might need to be similar we may have "naturally" selected for animals that thrive on different nutritional requirements than their ancestors.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Umm, no. You obviously haven't been following the discussion.

*rollseyes* Relax. Sorry I didn't interpret someone else's post as flawlessly as you....even though you didn't.

I then invalidated that point by pointing out that people are unhealthier now because of all kinds of nutrient deficiencies...However, it now seems that StealthDog believes that people are healthy (don't get osteoporosis, folic acid deficiency, etc) because we, afterall, eat a variety of food day by day

You invalidated? As in proven beyond a doubt? Do you have any research to back that up? That nutrient deficiency is a very large reason people are unhealthier now, and not just a speck in the middle of a myriad of other disorders including environmental factors, increase in resistant diseases, increase in disease spread, etc? And as for that last jab, Stealthdog had been engaging in a civil conversation with you, there was no call to act all high and mighty. And I might add that in terms of osteoporosis, that has a lot of factors (mainly hormonal), nutrition is only a small to medium part.

 

[Electrophile]

Is this where we start to debate how much like a wolf a chihuahua or a great dane is?

I'm too lazy to look at the moment, but it IS on my list to do--but I'd wager to guess while the diets might need to be similar we may have "naturally" selected for animals that thrive on different nutritional requirements than their ancestors.

Not really. A wolf, coyote, jackal, pariah/feral dog's digestive track are all going to be similar. Just because an Chihuahua is smaller doesn't make it less of an omnivorous carnivore. Cats and ferrets are certainly smaller than many dogs and are more obligate carnivores. Dogs have been domesticated for anywhere between 15,000 and 100,000 years, depending on who you ask. They've only been on kibble for the last 50-60. Surely people were doing something right as plenty of dogs made it to reproductive age just fine as dogs certainly aren't extinct. As Paul Pion on VIN says, dogs and cats didn't evolve to eat out of a bag of kibble.

The concern that I think I and several other people have is that, most people who are going to feed a home prepared diet aren't going to be varying it. They're going to get a recipe, make it, and keep making it. So the benefit you're getting from varying your foods and the balancing over the long run is probably not there. So in that sense, I'd rather have a commercially prepared balanced food rather than an imbalanced one that is home prepared where the animals will be getting the same unbalanced food every day forever....

I think that's where the disconnect comes from in this discussion. Sure, I think fresh food is better than extruded kibble, if done right. I just think (and I think HeartSong is on this same page) that the chances of it being done right are slim for your average Joe. (Electrophile, StealthDog, you guys are not the average Joe...or even the average Josephine for that matter).

Yes, that's true. I don't casually advocate it. When I did more raw feeding and people asked what diet my dogs were on to make them look as good as they did, I would usually just say "a special diet," since I didn't want to dive into an hour plus long discussion on the nuances of nutrition and make sure people know it's a lot more than tossing them a chicken quarter. Plus some dogs just do better on a cooked diet than raw or do better on kibble, and that's perfectly fine. I'd likewise rather have a dog on a balanced kibble than an unbalanced home prepared diet as we all hear about the dogs that eat nothing but ground beef or the cats that eat nothing but tuna. And thanks for the compliment by the way. 😉