Are women wasting valuable med school and residency spots?

[235009]

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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html

In this opinion article from today's NYTimes this female anesthesiologist argues that future physicians should be dedicated to working as full time clinicians once they finish their training, otherwise they are robbing society of valuable resources (med school and residency spots). The main theme of the article seems focused on female physicians who choose to work part time or generally shorter hours than their male counterparts.

NOTE: this article does not in any way reflect my views or beliefs so don't shoot the messenger! The thread title was purposefully provocative so you'd click.

 

[Disinence2]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html

In this opinion article from today's NYTimes this female anesthesiologist argues that future physicians should be dedicated to working as full time clinicians once they finish their training, otherwise they are robbing society of valuable resources (med school and residency spots). The main theme of the article seems focused on female physicians who choose to work part time or generally shorter hours than their male counterparts.

NOTE: this article does not in any way reflect my views or beliefs so don't shoot the messenger! The thread title was purposefully provocative so you'd click.

lol More people need to go into primary care and work more..says the anesthesiologist

 

[Law2Doc]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html

In this opinion article from today's NYTimes this female anesthesiologist argues that future physicians should be dedicated to working as full time clinicians once they finish their training, otherwise they are robbing society of valuable resources (med school and residency spots). The main theme of the article seems focused on female physicians who choose to work part time or generally shorter hours than their male counterparts.

NOTE: this article does not in any way reflect my views or beliefs so don't shoot the messenger! The thread title was purposefully provocative so you'd click.

I don't think the author was saying women shouldn't be doctors, just that you can't have it all, and sacrifices of home-time will have to be made because this isn't a part time endeavor. Most women who achieve in medicine get this. A lot of folks in pre-allo who assure others that there are abundant part time options for those who do want it all, probably don't get it.

 

[gujuDoc]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html

In this opinion article from today's NYTimes this female anesthesiologist argues that future physicians should be dedicated to working as full time clinicians once they finish their training, otherwise they are robbing society of valuable resources (med school and residency spots). The main theme of the article seems focused on female physicians who choose to work part time or generally shorter hours than their male counterparts.

NOTE: this article does not in any way reflect my views or beliefs so don't shoot the messenger! The thread title was purposefully provocative so you'd click.

Well that depends on the field they are entering.

I think women who want lesser hours and who are competitive enough for the more competitive lifestyle specialties have opportunities to enter fields that don't require those long hours. But there are some fields where I think women should really think long and hard about it before they enter if they are not able to give their time fully. For example, as a woman if you are not willing to give the time for a surgical position that requires on call hours a lot or what not you should not enter.

as for primary care, well its pot calling the kettle black coming from an anesthesiologist. Ask that anesthesiologist why he didn't go into primary care. The truthful answer is it is boring or it is not life style conducive or it is not a high enough salary.

There needs to be more primary care doctors regardless of field and better distribution but let's be honest. We are not going to sacrifice happiness to live in the middle of nowhere just to fulfill a primary care need. We'd be lying to ourselves if we said such. And primary care is often not challenging enough for some people and they get bored by it or by the amount of patients in primary care that are truly non compliant. so I don't know but i think even if it were an all male profession again we would still have a huge problem with primary care doctors being in shortage.

 

[gujuDoc]

I don't think the author was saying women shouldn't be doctors, just that you can't have it all, and sacrifices of home-time will have to be made because this isn't a part time endeavor. Most women who achieve in medicine get this. A lot of folks in pre-allo who assure others that there are abundant part time options for those who do want it all, probably don't get it.

I agree. I think the other thing is if you are going to enter a field that requires lot of being on call and what not you should be able to be ready to make the arrangements necessary to have someone help look after your kids like grandparents or a daycare center or what not.

I've known some pretty strong female physicians in my community who have been able to manage it but I've also heard of people who are entering IM planning on working only 30 hours a week and I don't know I don't get it. I guess is their choice but not sure I agree with it.

 

[mmmcdowe]

II have heard this sentiment most in the surgically related fields. Supposedly there are studies demonstrating the significant drop off in surgical hours when comparing male and female surgeons after residency. It may be that this is more of a concern in surgery because of the long residencies involved.

 

[NickNaylor]

This thread underdelivered based on the title.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I think the article is Bull.

Youngin' doctors nowadays are considering both their profession and their lifestyle/families - which I think is a wise decision - and I do think anyone can enter the medical field, and later decide to be a part-time physician (which still is 30+ hours a week).

The true argument this woman should be making is the need for more residency position, so that there isn't such a shortage of docs and where physicians can have a well-rounded life. Instead of complaining that future physicians are thinking more about their lifestyle, then the calling to be a physician. Especially hated the end: "Medicine shouldn't be a part-time interest to be set aside if it becomes inconvenient; it deserves to be a life's work." Even if you are part-time, you are still devoting your life to it and TONS of time. ughhhh. Women and men physicians should be able to "have it all" with kids and physician-ness if that is what they want.

 

[styphon]

Sounds like a thinly veiled shot at sexism.

Women are over 50% of medical students because they perform better on MCAT's and have better applications over all. I think this is causing some fear in "manly men". If everyone is so afraid, I'd suggest men on a whole do better on MCAT's and give up the "limiting women applications" crap which would never fly.

On top of that, there is no profession which forces its members to work a certain number of hours after they become one of its members. To do such would amount to forced labor (a nice way of saying slave labour) which will never happen.

In short: For males who believe this, grow some balls and do better as pre-meds.

 

[StudyShy]

She's probably infertile or a lesbian. Either way that's okay, but what a trader!

 

[Avoidthetiger]

She has kids and grandkids...

styphon - I agree with you though. It's a very sexist article. I also think even male physicians are considering "lifestyle" choices and probably are working part-time moreso now than in the past (though I'm now looking for proof of it)

---> Honestly, I'm starting to think that this woman just doesn't like the changing profession and is complaining.

two articles regarding men and working part-time:
"Most physicians don't go to medical school and endure the rigors of residency with the intention of only working part time when they get into practice. These days, however, an increasing number of physicians are doing just that. Part-time physicians now make up 21% of the workforce, compared with 13% in 2005, the recent Cejka Search/American Medical Group Management Retention Survey found. And among those part-time physicians, the fastest growing segments are men approaching retirement age and women in early to mid-career. This data suggests that the old stereotype of the hard-driving, perennially exhausted physician who always puts patient concerns before personal ones, spending little time with family, is waning." link

Twenty-nine percent of female doctors worked part time in 2005. The figure grew to 36% in 2010. Only 7% of male physicians worked part time in 2005, but the figure climbed to 13% in 2010. Male doctors were more likely to work part time at the end of their careers. About 31% of male physicians ages 55 to 64 worked part time compared with 15% of their female colleagues in this age group. One in five male physicians older than 65 worked part time, but only 2% of female physicians in this age bracket did. link

 

[Socrates25]

The author of the original article is a self-righteous hypocrite pompous bitch.

Yeah I said it.

This is the same idiot who says everybody should go into primary care, meanwhile she's not happy with her 350k as a gas doc and so she goes out and hires CRNAs to run her rooms so she can make an extra 150k per year. 🙄

The government should use her own logic against her and force her out of anesthesiology into primary care and mandate that she put in a minimum of 60 hours per week for a 100k salary.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" eh comrade?

 

[cbrons]

Good article...

 

[mmmcdowe]

Sounds like a thinly veiled shot at sexism.

Women are over 50% of medical students because they perform better on MCAT's and have better applications over all. I think this is causing some fear in "manly men". If everyone is so afraid, I'd suggest men on a whole do better on MCAT's and give up the "limiting women applications" crap which would never fly.

On top of that, there is no profession which forces its members to work a certain number of hours after they become one of its members. To do such would amount to forced labor (a nice way of saying slave labour) which will never happen.

In short: For males who believe this, grow some balls and do better as pre-meds.

Good job, combating sexism with more sexism. If you care to check, the 2010 data for applicants and matriculants demonstrates that men have higher mcat scores and science GPA whereas women have higher writing samples and conscience gpas. Also, I believe. there were still a tad more men than women. I doubt there is any significant difference in any of this data though.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I wonder about the data about part time. What id be interested in knowing is the percentage of each that are retired as well as working part time. Sure it is striking that only two percent of senior women physicians are part time, but the data could be interpreted differently if there are more retired women in that bracket.

 

[raltima07]

Sounds like a thinly veiled shot at sexism.

Women are over 50% of medical students because they perform better on MCAT's and have better applications over all. I think this is causing some fear in "manly men". If everyone is so afraid, I'd suggest men on a whole do better on MCAT's and give up the "limiting women applications" crap which would never fly.

On top of that, there is no profession which forces its members to work a certain number of hours after they become one of its members. To do such would amount to forced labor (a nice way of saying slave labour) which will never happen.

In short: For males who believe this, grow some balls and do better as pre-meds.

LOL you are no better. And your information on women is wrong, men score higher on the MCAT. Why don't you get your facts straight?

 

[flatearth22]

I didn't know you could attend to patients in your kitchen.

 

[eli20]

While I understand her opinion, I can't agree because we have fundamentally different assumptions about the field. I don't buy into the whole "privileged" and "morally obligated" sacrificial social servant model.

 

[MightyMoose]

Until the state starts to fund medical school, they have no say so on what you do when you're done. None.

 

[holoclothes]

Coming from the perspective of a pre-medical student: Would it be cynical to suggest that physicians are growing disenchanted with their roles as healthcare providers as they begin to recognize the diminishing returns in their ability to care for their patients' health purely through clinical work because of daunting socioeconomic determinants of health?

Is this related at all to physicians spending less time in the clinic or being on call?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

i actually think that was well written with some incisive points

 

[mmmcdowe]

Coming from the perspective of a pre-medical student: Would it be cynical to suggest that physicians are growing disenchanted with their roles as healthcare providers as they begin to recognize the diminishing returns in their ability to care for their patients' health purely through clinical work because of daunting socioeconomic determinants of health?

Is this related at all to physicians spending less time in the clinic or being on call?

I agree that there is disenchantment, but I think its a combination, of increasing beaurocracy, decreasing independence of practice, litigation, decreased perception of appreciation and respect, increased fighting among midlevels and alternative medicine practitioners, etc. In other words, the days of one individual holding back the tide of disease are over, for better and worse

.

 

[quiltlady]

I think Avoidthetiger raised the interesting point which is what constitutes part-time? The part time physicians i know, pediatrician and and anesthesiologist, both women, work 40 hours a week, which is considered part time.

 

[dbeast]

So does this mean all male applicants can apply as URM? Sweet...

 

[Long Way to Go]

Until the state starts to fund medical school, they have no say so on what you do when you're done. None.

Except they do. They don't fund medical school itself (except in the form of loans), but they easily put in more money into your residency training than you put in for medical school.

Anyway, the article reminded me of this blog post, also written by a female anesthesiologist.

 

[tman5890]

What's wrong with working "part time" if its 40 hours a week? Most people incur lots of debt by the time they become full doctors and as long as they can pay it off working "part time", who cares? Those same doctors were probably well qualified for med school and if they didn't take the position, someone with lower grades and such probably would. Is that any better?

 

[rockyrado]

I didn't know you could attend to patients in your kitchen.

I know that's not supposed to be funny, but not gonna lie, I laughed my ass off

 

[eli20]

I think Avoidthetiger raised the interesting point which is what constitutes part-time? The part time physicians i know, pediatrician and and anesthesiologist, both women, work 40 hours a week, which is considered part time.

Well I guess this would depend on what field you go into. I know several dermatologists who work ~45 hours a week and are "full time." Obviously people who weren't smart enough to avoid the more medically necessary specialties should be forced to work 80 hour weeks 🙄.

 

[235009]

I think Avoidthetiger raised the interesting point which is what constitutes part-time? The part time physicians i know, pediatrician and and anesthesiologist, both women, work 40 hours a week, which is considered part time.

What's wrong with working "part time" if its 40 hours a week? Most people incur lots of debt by the time they become full doctors and as long as they can pay it off working "part time", who cares? Those same doctors were probably well qualified for med school and if they didn't take the position, someone with lower grades and such probably would. Is that any better?

I'm quite sure by "part time" she means ~20 hours a week, which is the classic definition of the term. At one of those club meetings a female attending was telling us about how she worked part time (20 hours a week) while raising a family.

 

[MSU2009]

I didn't know you could attend to patients in your kitchen.

Ha.

Someone has to make us men sandwiches; women should think about that before following their dreams of medicine and whatnot.. 🙄

LOL you are no better. And your information on women is wrong, men score higher on the MCAT. Why don't you get your facts straight?

Also, I thought you were female, but this post makes me rethink that..

If you are in fact a girl +1 for not agreeing with that overly sexist post you quoted.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

truthfully, i've never had a rocking sandwich made by a girl. dudes definitely make the most diesel sandwiches.

 

[StudyShy]

truthfully, i've never had a rocking sandwich made by a girl. dudes definitely make the most diesel sandwiches.

Are you a boy or a girl?

 

[deleted307836]

Except they do. They don't fund medical school itself (except in the form of loans), but they easily put in more money into your residency training than you put in for medical school.

Anyway, the article reminded me of this blog post, also written by a female anesthesiologist.

👍

Michelle Au is awesome btw. Currently on the waiting list at my library for her new book...

Edit: and to add to that, state medical schools are indeed subsidized by the government. So if you go to a state school and then partake in a 4 year residency, technically the government invested in you greatly. Whether that confers some moral responsibility to serve in and of itself is a worthy debate.

 

[45408]

I think this is causing some fear in "manly men". If everyone is so afraid, I'd suggest men on a whole do better on MCAT's and give up the "limiting women applications" crap which would never fly.

In short: For males who believe this, grow some balls and do better as pre-meds.

"Growing balls" (really?) is discouraged at most levels of education and will get you punished for acting out, or drugged for having ADD.

There are far fewer men in post-secondary education, and I think it's because schools and teaching styles have progressively favored girls over boys, especially at lower levels.

 

[Eric01]

I'm so glad this article was written by a woman. I'm sure the NYTimes are too.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'm so glad this article was written by a woman. I'm sure the NYTimes are too.

Yeah, it definitely would give them a Ton of grief if it was written by a man.

 

[deleted307836]

I'm so glad this article was written by a woman. I'm sure the NYTimes are too.

Seriously... if it were written by a man... 1) It wouldn't have been published and 2) There would have been a huge outcry against it and its "sexist" author, even if it possessed the same content.

At least this being written by a woman will make more people seriously think about this issue.

 

[YouNeverKnow22]

II have heard this sentiment most in the surgically related fields. Supposedly there are studies demonstrating the significant drop off in surgical hours when comparing male and female surgeons after residency. It may be that this is more of a concern in surgery because of the long residencies involved.

I've definitely heard this for neurosurgery

 

[JonnyL]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vubYloIzCg0[/YOUTUBE]

Sorry, I couldn't resist 😀

 

[45408]

For the original question, no, I don't think they're wasting slots in med school or residency, but I do think it would be foolish to ignore the difference in the amount of time worked afterward and not adjust the number of positions accordingly.

 

[boaz]

The author is only arguing that it's an obligation for those choosing medicine as a career to be committed to making it their "life's work." There's nothing sexist about that, since she doesn't suggest that admissions committees etc. adjust the male/female ratio.

 

[StudyShy]

The same argument can be applied to anyone who works in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics). It was one of the main reasons why women were kept out of R&D until he second World War.

 

[Long Way to Go]

For the original question, no, I don't think they're wasting slots in med school or residency, but I do think it would be foolish to ignore the difference in the amount of time worked afterward and not adjust the number of positions accordingly.

I'm not sure I understand this. How exactly would one "adjust the number of positions accordingly"? Institute a cap on the percentage of women and only accept applicants who promise to work >45 hours/week? Do that for everyone? Forbid women from working in medicine entirely?

 

[45408]

I'm not sure I understand this. How exactly would one "adjust the number of positions accordingly"? Institute a cap on the percentage of women and only accept applicants who promise to work >45 hours/week? Do that for everyone? Forbid women from working in medicine entirely?

Clearly.

How about just increasing the number of positions so that we have enough physicians to serve the patient population we have? Was that so hard?

 

[gettheleadout]

I'm not sure I understand this. How exactly would one "adjust the number of positions accordingly"? Institute a cap on the percentage of women and only accept applicants who promise to work >45 hours/week? Do that for everyone? Forbid women from working in medicine entirely?

...or just increase the number of residency spots and not discriminate. I'm pretty sure this is what TheProwler was getting at.

Edit: Beat. 🙁

 

[Long Way to Go]

Clearly.

How about just increasing the number of positions so that we have enough physicians to serve the patient population we have? Was that so hard?

Ah. That.

Well, it would be nice if Congress (and hospitals?)got its act together and did that. Not holding my breath though.

 

[eli20]

The author is only arguing that it's an obligation for those choosing medicine as a career to be committed to making it their "life's work." There's nothing sexist about that, since she doesn't suggest that admissions committees etc. adjust the male/female ratio.

Except that she's specifically targeting women under the assumptions that only women want a work/life balance or that all women want traditional families. Do I think the article is sexist? Not so much, but its not exactly gender-neutral either.

 

[Suncrusher]

It's not gender-neutral because the data show that women doctors are more likely than male doctors to only work part time...how do you expect her to write something gender-neutral based off of that? I don't think in any part of her article that she assumes that only women want balance or family in their lives. The author is criticizing EVERY doctor who chooses to work only part-time, and it just so happens that the data show that more of those doctors are female. That's not the author's fault, and her tone towards women was not something the article should be attacked over...

 

[eli20]

It's not gender-neutral because the data shows that women doctors are more likely than male doctors to only work part time...how do you expect her to write something gender-neutral based off of that? I don't think she is assuming that only women want balance or family in their lives. The author is criticizing EVERY doctor who chooses to work only part-time, and it just so happens that most of those doctors actually are female. That's not the author's fault, and her tone towards women was not something the article should be attacked over...

I think making an assertion that we should specifically ask all female applicants about their family plans is a pretty blatant assumption. It's not the authors fault that the data shows women are more likely to work part-time, but if shes trying to make an argument about part-time physicians it's silly to couch her real argument in gendered terms because it's only going to distract from her point.

 

[235009]

Clearly.

How about just increasing the number of positions so that we have enough physicians to serve the patient population we have? Was that so hard?

...or just increase the number of residency spots and not discriminate. I'm pretty sure this is what TheProwler was getting at.

Edit: Beat. 🙁

There is no question that increasing the number of residency slots would solve the problem but what the author is arguing is that tax payers wouldn't be getting a good return on their investment since residency is 100% government funded and the taxpayers would basically be paying for 2 residencies to get 1 full time physician