Are you in radiology because of the money?

[bronx43]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Sure ya would. If it's such an easy path, go for it.

Most doctors vastly over-estimate their own potential for success. While doctors may have to each a $hit sandwich, at least we have a sandwich and will keep getting sandwiches. Same can't be said for all those people trying to make it in business. The system is rigged to get us jobs...which can't be said for any other field.

This is exactly correct. The only bargaining chip physicians have is the ability to control supply. As oversupply becomes more prevalent, then even that is out the window.

 

[OneStrongBro]

Here is list of the top ten paying medical specialities by Forbes magazine.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/efkk45eldej/the-10-best-paying-medical-specialties/

Don't go into radiology because of money.

 

[IMDoc607]

Sure ya would. If it's such an easy path, go for it.

Most doctors vastly over-estimate their own potential for success. While doctors may have to each a $hit sandwich, at least we have a sandwich and will keep getting sandwiches. Same can't be said for all those people trying to make it in business. The system is rigged to get us jobs...which can't be said for any other field.

At this time I don't want to but I know I can do it. With that being said, who says I need to make > $150,000? I'm saying that's would accept that money if I wasn't working as a invasive or interventional cardiologist waking up in the middle of the night.

 

[IMDoc607]

I think all those jobs/businesses are far less accessible to you than you might think, especially in a situation where reimbursements were to drastically decrease. You would see a flood of practitioners vying for these positions who are in far better position than you (assuming you are just a clinician). I don't know why MDs think that pharm companies have perpetual hard-ons for them... they have hard-ons for big wigs researchers with wide industry knowledge, connections, and applicable expertise. Unless you are some renowned department chief from an academic center, having any respectable ties to big pharma is pretty much a pipe dream. As far as hospital administration jobs, what have you done so far in administration? You think you can just call up a hospital and say you want to be their CMO? You have to work your way up very very slowly, and entry point for a physician into administration is through clinical practice as you slowly take on adminsitrative roles. Getting to C level would probably take you decades if even possible. I don't know what medical businesses are... but if you mean entrepreneurship, good luck on that.

Let's put all that aside and take an analytical approach at this. In what socio-economic and political landscape would such drastic cuts to the health care industry occur? It would occur in the setting of monumental paradigm shift in this country from a financial standpoint. Long story short, the available pool of money for ALL components of health care will be drastically decreased, and everyone is looking to get theirs. This effectively makes it so no one in health care will be able to maintain their current cut of the pie. Therefore, none of the aforementioned options will likely be more attractive than practicing. Even if they were, it's simply a game of musical chairs. Physicians, collectively, cannot move into those other positions enough to actually cause any disruptions to supply of providers. So, ultimately, the threat of "leaving medicine" for physicians in general is an empty one.

You're right it wouldn't be easy but I think you're missing my point. I would have a much simpler life with a lot less stress. I wouldn't feel the need to make more than 100 to 150K. Listen, I am constantly looking at business deals and how to make money since I am fortunate to have extra cash. Just because I don't rely on medicine as my only income source doesn't mean it's my only talent. What you said is right but I'm always looking for ways to make money so I can enjoy medicine as my job.

 

[a runner]

It's true, you can get out of medicine. But let's face it, the only realistic way to do it and to still make a reasonable amount of money (or more) is to take a large sum of capital and become some kind of entrepreneur. One example would be to invest in properties or businesses and manage them. Of course, you can't do this until you've built up a considerable amount of cash first, and many doctors haven't been taught how to successfully manage businesses this way.

 

[shark2000]

There are two things here that should be separated.

1- Money: Medicine is still a secure way to make money, better than MOST other fields.

2- Cost: Though you make a good money in medicine, the cost is also very high. Higher than what most think. The price of medicine is the BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE. The cost is missing good times of your 20s and 30s. And also after that the situation is not as rosy as general public think. You have to work like a dog the rest of your life.

It is like saying Maserati is better or BMW or Honda. The answer is obvious. But Most people with average or high income may agree that though Maserati is a better can than Lexus, but the price is not worth it.

If I went in the other routes, there was a very very small chance that I became rich. But MOST MOST likely I would not make as much as what I make now. However, something is obvious. I would have a better life during my 20s and early 30s.

This is why doctors are so scared about and abscessed with INCOME. Because if they take away the money, nothing is left. The best years are already GONE by the time you can make some money.

Now with this market, even you can not have a stable middle life. These days my girlfriend and I are begging for a job for her. She is a cardiology fellow. The best that we could find is about 1.5 hours away outside the big city we live. The only option we have is to find a good neighborhood between our two jobs which is an hour away from each job. It means each of us has to drive 2 hours a day. Also the nights that she is on call, she has to stay near the hospital. The nights that I do night shift, I have to sleep somewhere near the hospital as I can not drive back in highway for more than one hour after a long night . Long story short, we are screwed after being in training for about 30 years together.

To the OP: Most doctors are in medicine, because they don't have any other options after being 10-15 years in training (i.e. detached from real life). They made a choice when they were 20 and now at the age of 60 they have to get along with it and accept the consequences, good or bad.

 

[bronx43]

Now with this market, even you can not have a stable middle life. These days my girlfriend and I are begging for a job for her. She is a cardiology fellow. The best that we could find is about 1.5 hours away outside the big city we live. The only option we have is to find a good neighborhood between our two jobs which is an hour away from each job. It means each of us has to drive 2 hours a day. Also the nights that she is on call, she has to stay near the hospital. The nights that I do night shift, I have to sleep somewhere near the hospital as I can not drive back in highway for more than one hour after a long night . Long story short, we are screwed after being in training for about 30 years together.

To the OP: Most doctors are in medicine, because they don't have any other options after being 10-15 years in training (i.e. detached from real life). They made a choice when they were 20 and now at the age of 60 they have to get along with it and accept the consequences, good or bad.

That's pretty crappy, man. Having a significant other who's a physician is really problematic nowadays, unless one of you two is primary care, hospitalist, or emergency medicine where there are still jobs galore.

 

[cbtk18]

Here is list of the top ten paying medical specialities by Forbes magazine.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/efkk45eldej/the-10-best-paying-medical-specialties/

Don't go into radiology because of money.

The Forbes physician articles are known to be ridiculous and completely unfounded. There's this one female author that writes all that crap and the accuracy of her articles are laughable. Wouldn't put too much faith in that link.

 

[TheFlashMD]

There are two things here that should be separated.

1- Money: Medicine is still a secure way to make money, better than MOST other fields.

2- Cost: Though you make a good money in medicine, the cost is also very high. Higher than what most think. The price of medicine is the BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE. The cost is missing good times of your 20s and 30s. And also after that the situation is not as rosy as general public think. You have to work like a dog the rest of your life.

It is like saying Maserati is better or BMW or Honda. The answer is obvious. But Most people with average or high income may agree that though Maserati is a better can than Lexus, but the price is not worth it.

If I went in the other routes, there was a very very small chance that I became rich. But MOST MOST likely I would not make as much as what I make now. However, something is obvious. I would have a better life during my 20s and early 30s.

This is why doctors are so scared about and abscessed with INCOME. Because if they take away the money, nothing is left. The best years are already GONE by the time you can make some money.

Now with this market, even you can not have a stable middle life. These days my girlfriend and I are begging for a job for her. She is a cardiology fellow. The best that we could find is about 1.5 hours away outside the big city we live. The only option we have is to find a good neighborhood between our two jobs which is an hour away from each job. It means each of us has to drive 2 hours a day. Also the nights that she is on call, she has to stay near the hospital. The nights that I do night shift, I have to sleep somewhere near the hospital as I can not drive back in highway for more than one hour after a long night . Long story short, we are screwed after being in training for about 30 years together.

To the OP: Most doctors are in medicine, because they don't have any other options after being 10-15 years in training (i.e. detached from real life). They made a choice when they were 20 and now at the age of 60 they have to get along with it and accept the consequences, good or bad.

Great post. Sorry for your situation. That's an obviously less than ideal setup.

On a lighter note, doctors being "abscessed with income" is some pretty powerful imagery. Place some drains today?

 

[meister]

Doctors are obsessed with money because they typically have hundreds of thousands in student loans hanging around their neck for a decade, with each monthly statement more horrifying than the previous.

 

[tco]

Great post. Sorry for your situation. That's an obviously less than ideal setup.

On a lighter note, doctors being "abscessed with income" is some pretty powerful imagery. Place some drains today?

I chuckled at that line, too.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[shark2000]

Thanks everyone.

 

[gasman654]

Does anybody else notice the theme on this website about posts related to money correlating to educational status?

Pre-med: I want to heal the sick and volunteer in Africa. I will flame to death the occasional premed who posts about wanting to be a doctor for money and tell him that you must sacrifice to be a doctor and that he can make more money by being a i-banker (even though I don't know that is).
M1-M2: Which specialty pays the most with the fewest hours, why physicians deserve to get paid so much, how do I get the highest step score, etc.
M3-M4: I have so many loans. I will make X salary in a few years, no other fields besides medicine can make as much money as I will
Resident: Don't choose your specialty based on money, going to med school is not worth it for the money.
Junior attending: medicine is great, i love what I do and get paid very well
Senior attending: medicine sucks i don't make money anymore, i hate my life, obama, people in general, etc. kids should be [insert something asinine] instead being doctors

Is there a way to report this as the best post on SDN?

 

[Dusn]

If you're claiming that U.S. physicians will be making less than their counterparts in Canada and the UK in the near future, please, provide some proof.

It's amazing how prevalent the notion is that physicians make more in the U.S. than they do in Canada. Ophthalmologists in Canada, for example, make significantly more than ophthalmologists in the U.S. do -- this has been true for a long time. I'm more familiar with ophthalmology but I know this holds true for many other fields as well.

The health care costs are higher in the U.S. because of non-physician costs, such as the price of pharmaceuticals and the waste on bureaucracy.

 

[maxxor]

The Canadian argument is a tricky one though. Canadian specialists that have a job make more or higher than their American counterparts. However, ask any Canadian orthopedist about their job market and they will tell you a tale of woe that will make any person moaning about the Radiology market realize how good they have it.

Canada needs to pay somewhat equivalently to America, because their residency trained physicians can practice in America, so to prevent an extreme brain drain, they have to pay well.

 

[shark2000]

The Canadian argument is a tricky one though. Canadian specialists that have a job make more or higher than their American counterparts. However, ask any Canadian orthopedist about their job market and they will tell you a tale of woe that will make any person moaning about the Radiology market realize how good they have it.

Canada needs to pay somewhat equivalently to America, because their residency trained physicians can practice in America, so to prevent an extreme brain drain, they have to pay well.

In Canada you can make a very high salary, but only in remote areas. Pretty much the government has to pay physicians a great bonus to encourage them to go to remote areas. The geography of Canada is different from US. Other than a few big cities, most of its land is very undesirable to live, extremely cold and underpopulated.

You have to compare (most of) Canada to North Dakota, not Boston or Florida or San Diego. In North Dakota, you can make two-three times of what you make in San Francisco. You can not just compare the average salaries of Canada and US.

 

[a runner]

What are the taxes for high income earners in Canada like? Compared to the US?

 

[rule out normal]

What are the taxes for high income earners in Canada like? Compared to the US?

Those rates may be more similar than you think. However, there are many other types of taxes other than the income tax. These other taxes are often overlooked by everyday people. These taxes act upon your savings, investment, and retirement accounts. They essentially prevent wealth accumulation and funnel your assets back to the government to spend as they see fit.

 

[Sirach38]

2- Cost: Though you make a good money in medicine, the cost is also very high. Higher than what most think. The price of medicine is the BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE. The cost is missing good times of your 20s and 30s. And also after that the situation is not as rosy as general public think. You have to work like a dog the rest of your life.

I am 25 years old. I am a 3rd year medical student. This is something that I have never really understood. I frequently hear people saying that they are "sacrificing" the best years of their lives to become doctors. As a medical student, I don't feel this way at all. I love medicine and I love medical school. I feel it is a great privilege to be studying what I love and to learn something new and interesting every day. Do I work hard? Absolutely. But who doesn't? I have many friends my age who graduated from college after four years, didn't go to grad school, and are making good money (90k/year). However, they too are working hard. Many of them are working 70+hrs/week and some of them absolutely hate their jobs. It doesn't make sense to me that doing something I am passionate about is a waste of the best years of my life. I still get to spend time with my family, spend time with friends, volunteer, exercise, and go out on weekends. As I look at my life and compare it to many of my fellow 25 year old friends, I feel I have a great life. In no way do I feel like I am missing out on anything or sacrificing anything. On the contrary, I am gaining a lot and living experiences that many of my non-medical peers could only dream of. I can honestly say that I have loved every moment of medical school, even the hard moments. Having to work hard is not a burden to me because it is extremely rewarding to see the fruits of my labor.

Maybe I just got lucky. If I hated medical school then I could definitely see my current situation as a sacrifice. If I lived my current existence waiting for the time when I will become an attending and make a six figure salary, then I would definitely be sacrificing the best years of my life. This is not the case. I wake up everyday excited to go to school because I know that I will learn something new in the field that I love. Up to this point, the journey has been great and by no means a waste of my 20s.

 

[Kaputt]

I am 25 years old. I am a 3rd year medical student. This is something that I have never really understood. I frequently hear people saying that they are "sacrificing" the best years of their lives to become doctors. As a medical student, I don't feel this way at all. I love medicine and I love medical school. I feel it is a great privilege to be studying what I love and to learn something new and interesting every day. Do I work hard? Absolutely. But who doesn't? I have many friends my age who graduated from college after four years, didn't go to grad school, and are making good money (90k/year). However, they too are working hard. Many of them are working 70+hrs/week and some of them absolutely hate their jobs. It doesn't make sense to me that doing something I am passionate about is a waste of the best years of my life. I still get to spend time with my family, spend time with friends, volunteer, exercise, and go out on weekends. As I look at my life and compare it to many of my fellow 25 year old friends, I feel I have a great life. In no way do I feel like I am missing out on anything or sacrificing anything. On the contrary, I am gaining a lot and living experiences that many of my non-medical peers could only dream of. I can honestly say that I have loved every moment of medical school, even the hard moments. Having to work hard is not a burden to me because it is extremely rewarding to see the fruits of my labor.

Maybe I just got lucky. If I hated medical school then I could definitely see my current situation as a sacrifice. If I lived my current existence waiting for the time when I will become an attending and make a six figure salary, then I would definitely be sacrificing the best years of my life. This is not the case. I wake up everyday excited to go to school because I know that I will learn something new in the field that I love. Up to this point, the journey has been great and by no means a waste of my 20s.

I agree. Med school has been fun. Met lots of great people, and got to prolong entering the real workforce. I'm 26, recently married, and happy. I am enjoying these "best years of my life". Then again, I'm a low-maintenance person who is content just to have a few good friends and family around to enjoy life.

Lots of people idealize what the life outside of medicine would be like for them. Like they'd be rolling in the i-banking dough or something. I'd probably be stuck pipetting in a lab for hours on end if I wasn't in med school.

 

[meister]

Can you guys check back in in a couple of years after you've both been ground into a fine paste by your eighth chest pain admission and/or twelfth butt pus I&D?

 

[Sirach38]

Can you guys check back in in a couple of years after you've both been ground into a fine paste by your eighth chest pain admission and/or twelfth butt puss I&D?

I'm not sure eight chest pain admissions or twelve butt puss I&Ds are going to make me feel like I wasted or sacrificed the best years of my life. I'm sure there will be days that I won't like and situations that upset me, but that doesn't mean these situations will make me regret choosing medicine. I think many of us in the medical field lose touch with reality. We feel that just because we worked hard and may have above average intelligence, we deserve to have a beautiful life full of rainbows and sunshine. This is not reality. Life is hard for the majority of human beings. My life is TONS better as a medical student than many of my non-medical friends who are out in the real world working. If you love medicine, there is no better field. Was studying 60hrs/week for Step 1 hard? Yes! But it was also fun and interesting. I learned a lot and while I was learning, many of my friends were mindlessly pushing papers at their jobs and hating every moment of it. I guess what I am trying to say is that when I look at my life, I feel blessed. I am thankful when I wake up everyday because I know I am doing what I love. This is a luxury that the VAST majority of people don't have. It only takes stepping out of our own medical field bubble and looking at people in other fields to realize just how good we have it. Of course, I am speaking as someone who chose medicine because I love it and could not see myself doing anything else. It certainly is not the case for everyone. Many of my classmates hate medical school and view it as some burden they have to endure in order to become an attending someday. They may be very disappointed once they get there.

 

[anonperson]

I am 25 years old. I am a 3rd year medical student. This is something that I have never really understood. I frequently hear people saying that they are "sacrificing" the best years of their lives to become doctors. As a medical student, I don't feel this way at all. I love medicine and I love medical school. I feel it is a great privilege to be studying what I love and to learn something new and interesting every day. Do I work hard? Absolutely. But who doesn't? I have many friends my age who graduated from college after four years, didn't go to grad school, and are making good money (90k/year). However, they too are working hard. Many of them are working 70+hrs/week and some of them absolutely hate their jobs. It doesn't make sense to me that doing something I am passionate about is a waste of the best years of my life. I still get to spend time with my family, spend time with friends, volunteer, exercise, and go out on weekends. As I look at my life and compare it to many of my fellow 25 year old friends, I feel I have a great life. In no way do I feel like I am missing out on anything or sacrificing anything. On the contrary, I am gaining a lot and living experiences that many of my non-medical peers could only dream of. I can honestly say that I have loved every moment of medical school, even the hard moments. Having to work hard is not a burden to me because it is extremely rewarding to see the fruits of my labor.

Maybe I just got lucky. If I hated medical school then I could definitely see my current situation as a sacrifice. If I lived my current existence waiting for the time when I will become an attending and make a six figure salary, then I would definitely be sacrificing the best years of my life. This is not the case. I wake up everyday excited to go to school because I know that I will learn something new in the field that I love. Up to this point, the journey has been great and by no means a waste of my 20s.

I don't want to completely discount what you're saying but you're just a medical student. Nothing you do counts for anything in the hospital/clinic setting. You're so far removed from what residency and the meat of your medical training will be like it's laughable. The hardest stuff you've had to do so far was study for step 1 in an artificial environment (no other real duties other than studying). This is not your fault, but just how medical education is nowadays. Medical school is generally interesting and overall isn't that bad of an experience other than a few exceptions.

People work hard in other jobs, but residency is a different beast. It is physically, mentally, and emotionally draining. I enjoy my job in general, but even with the work hour restrictions, a resident's job can be a miserable experience. I don;t personally feel I've wasted my 20s but I can see why other physicians feel that way. The practice of medicine is interesting but the other extraneous factors can make one question their decisions especially when they see their peers in non medical jobs doing reasonably well. A couple of things:

1. Call/night float are brutal things. I'm still doing traditional 24 hour calls and it is not physically easy when you're on your feet. Couple that with the fact that I have to leave my family for a full 24-28 hours on a regular basis makes it especially more painful. Image doing this with a wife who just had a newborn and leaving them behind. It sucks and is a huge sacrifice that others with a regular 9-5 job don't have to experience.

2. Lack of holidays off. I hate working on days when others don't/ We split up holidays in my program which is fine. But I get envious of others getting to chill with their family/friends, watch the game etc on Christmas/Thanksgiving. You know what I was doing on Christmas day? Taking a ruptured ectopic back to the OR. Yeah, I enjoy the OR and the case was fine, but being on when nearly every other profession is no fun.

3. Lack of gratitude. With all of this sacrifice, you still get shat upon by ungrateful patients, their families, lawyers, administrators etc. You'd think with the level of sacrifice there'd be some more appreciation. If this was a regular job, I wouldn't care. Foruntately/unfortunately most residents and attendings care a lot about their patients. Seeing them come back with complications or have a poor outcome if everything was done correctly eats away at us. I've been up at 2am, knowing I have to get up in a few hours to follow up vitals/labs on patients I've oeprated on using my home EMR access.

SO yeah, I can see how all of these things coupled together can make one think they've wasted the best years of their life.

I don't hold any illusions that if I skipped on medical school I'd somehow be a baller on wall street, but I do think I could have easily done a 9-5 office job or worked for the government, done my 20-25 years maxing out at maybe 100,000K a year and then retire with a pension that life wouldn't be so bad.

 

[Sirach38]

I don't want to completely discount what you're saying but you're just a medical student. Nothing you do counts for anything in the hospital/clinic setting. You're so far removed from what residency and the meat of your medical training will be like it's laughable. The hardest stuff you've had to do so far was study for step 1 in an artificial environment (no other real duties other than studying). This is not your fault, but just how medical education is nowadays. Medical school is generally interesting and overall isn't that bad of an experience other than a few exceptions.

People work hard in other jobs, but residency is a different beast. It is physically, mentally, and emotionally draining. I enjoy my job in general, but even with the work hour restrictions, a resident's job can be a miserable experience. I don;t personally feel I've wasted my 20s but I can see why other physicians feel that way. The practice of medicine is interesting but the other extraneous factors can make one question their decisions especially when they see their peers in non medical jobs doing reasonably well. A couple of things:

1. Call/night float are brutal things. I'm still doing traditional 24 hour calls and it is not physically easy when you're on your feet. Couple that with the fact that I have to leave my family for a full 24-28 hours on a regular basis makes it especially more painful. Image doing this with a wife who just had a newborn and leaving them behind. It sucks and is a huge sacrifice that others with a regular 9-5 job don't have to experience.

2. Lack of holidays off. I hate working on days when others don't/ We split up holidays in my program which is fine. But I get envious of others getting to chill with their family/friends, watch the game etc on Christmas/Thanksgiving. You know what I was doing on Christmas day? Taking a ruptured ectopic back to the OR. Yeah, I enjoy the OR and the case was fine, but being on when nearly every other profession is no fun.

3. Lack of gratitude. With all of this sacrifice, you still get shat upon by ungrateful patients, their families, lawyers, administrators etc. You'd think with the level of sacrifice there'd be some more appreciation. If this was a regular job, I wouldn't care. Foruntately/unfortunately most residents and attendings care a lot about their patients. Seeing them come back with complications or have a poor outcome if everything was done correctly eats away at us. I've been up at 2am, knowing I have to get up in a few hours to follow up vitals/labs on patients I've oeprated on using my home EMR access.

SO yeah, I can see how all of these things coupled together can make one think they've wasted the best years of their life.

I don't hold any illusions that if I skipped on medical school I'd somehow be a baller on wall street, but I do think I could have easily done a 9-5 office job or worked for the government, done my 20-25 years maxing out at maybe 100,000K a year and then retire with a pension that life wouldn't be so bad.

You make some excellent points and I have no arguments in regards to the life of a resident because I am not there myself. I can only speak for medical school when I say that in no way do I feel like I am wasting or sacrificing my 20s as a medical student. I guess I'll have to wait until I start residency to decide whether the time spent as a resident was a waste. Furthermore, I don't have a wife or kids so I can dedicate myself fully to what I do without worrying about leaving somebody behind. This may contribute to my satisfaction as a medical student. If I was missing time with my wife/kids to study or be in school, I may not be as satisfied or happy with the current state of my life.

I guess the bottom line is that we have picked this profession. No one has forced us into medicine and no one has forced us to remain in medicine. Our happiness is our own responsibility. We are not martyrs. If we are not happy we must examine ourselves because more often than not, it is our internal circumstances that need adjustment and not our external situation. I think the only people who waste "the best years of their lives" are those that realized early on that medicine was not what they loved yet continued in the field. Even if residency is utterly miserable, it is temporary and well worth it if you chose medicine for the right reasons. These are my current feelings as a 3rd year. However, I'm just an ignorant medical student who may very well be in for a rude awakening come residency.

 

[shark2000]

I was one of the most energetic and most eager medical students. One of those who were super-excited about medicine. Now I am overall satisfied with what I have done and my current job/situation. But it is not as fun as you say. A job is a job. The good parts will become routine and monotonous, but the bad parts will become worse over time.

If you have any doubt, see how many doctors are looking forward eagerly to retire or to save enough money and go part time.

I am not talking about money. As I say, you make more money than most of your college friends. But you also pay for it.

Studying was the easiest thing I have done so far in life. I'd rather study for radiology boards or step 1 than apply for a job or attend the weekly meetings of my group. Honestly, the knowledge aspect of it or the pure radiology/medicine part itself are the easiest parts. The logistics and the business aspects are the most annoying things.

Just to give you an idea. Playing tennis is one of my hobbies. It is great and I love it. But imagine rather than choosing to play it twice a week, you have to play it everyday, 10-12 hours a day for the rest of your life. Some nights you have to go to the tennis court and play a 12 hour shift. Your friends are going for a brunch on Sunday, but you have to play tennis. You have to go to tennis CME course now and then. If you are sick, still you have to play it or you have to beg someone to cover you. If you make a mistake, there is a risk that someone sues you. Also you have to actively participate in the tennis club's committee (i.e. hospital board), otherwise they will cut your salary or ...

Please save your above post somewhere and read it again in 10 years, when you are an attending.

 

[Sirach38]

I was one of the most energetic and most eager medical students. One of those who were super-excited about medicine. Now I am overall satisfied with what I have done and my current job/situation. But it is not as fun as you say. A job is a job. The good parts will become routine and monotonous, but the bad parts will become worse over time.

If you have any doubt, see how many doctors are looking forward eagerly to retire or to save enough money and go part time.

I am not talking about money. As I say, you make more money than most of your college friends. But you also pay for it.

Studying was the easiest thing I have done so far in life. I'd rather study for radiology boards or step 1 than apply for a job or attend the weekly meetings of my group. Honestly, the knowledge aspect of it or the pure radiology/medicine part itself are the easiest parts. The logistics and the business aspects are the most annoying things.

Just to give you an idea. Playing tennis is one of my hobbies. It is great and I love it. But imagine rather than choosing to play it twice a week, you have to play it everyday, 10-12 hours a day for the rest of your life. Some nights you have to go to the tennis court and play a 12 hour shift. Your friends are going for a brunch on Sunday, but you have to play tennis. You have to go to tennis CME course now and then. If you are sick, still you have to play it or you have to beg someone to cover you. If you make a mistake, there is a risk that someone sues you. Also you have to actively participate in the tennis club's committee (i.e. hospital board), otherwise they will cut your salary or ...

Please save your above post somewhere and read it again in 10 years, when you are an attending.

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this is the case for the VAST majority of people in America no matter what field they are in. Having things within your job that you don't like is not unique to medicine. Life is hard. You get to go play "tennis" everyday. Most other people get to do something they hated from the beginning everyday. We should be thankful we are playing "tennis".

 

[maxxor]

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this is the case for the VAST majority of people in America no matter what field they are in. Having things within your job that you don't like is not unique to medicine. Life is hard. You get to go play "tennis" everyday. Most other people get to do something they hated from the beginning everyday. We should be thankful we are playing "tennis".

While "could be worse" may be useful for your own personal change of perspective, it is no way to advance a profession. There is no reason we should simply accept "well it could be worse, so I shouldn't complain". It's the same reaction I get when people say "I just want a comfortable life". No one owes you a comfortable life, and unless you are willing to fight for something more than "comfortable", you will be walked over.

 

[Kaputt]

Can you guys check back in in a couple of years after you've both been ground into a fine paste by your eighth chest pain admission and/or twelfth butt puss I&D?

Well that's why I'm not going into internal medicine or general surgery.

I'm a med student, so yeah I don't have perspective on residency and beyond, so I'm in for a lot of suck in the future. But work sucks in general. What we do as human beings is complain about work. Why should medicine be too different?

Though I agree with maxxor that we shouldn't just roll over and take it, but rather fight for our profession. But all I know is I'd be working my ass off in another industry that I hate if I wasn't in medicine.

 

[Sirach38]

While "could be worse" may be useful for your own personal change of perspective, it is no way to advance a profession. There is no reason we should simply accept "well it could be worse, so I shouldn't complain". It's the same reaction I get when people say "I just want a comfortable life". No one owes you a comfortable life, and unless you are willing to fight for something more than "comfortable", you will be walked over.

Of course we should never roll over and take what we are given. I am all for fighting to improve physician satisfaction and work environment. What I am not for is physicians discouraging bright pre-meds from pursuing medicine because it is a waste of your 20s or 30s. Medicine is NOT a waste of the best years of your life. It is a wonderful and rewarding profession if you go into it for the right reasons and with the right expectations/attitude. It is hard but so are all the other jobs out there.

 

[DCBFan]

I just checked so listings at the nearest major medical center to make sure I wasn't off my rocker. They are advertising most RN positions with a pay range between $23-37/hr. There was a nursing manager position listed at $74k/year. This is pretty good money for a job that doesn't require a college education especially compared to engineers and computer scientists who make around the same amount. If you're saying that your aunt started at $42/hr (what would be needed to make $75k in a 50 weeks at 36 hr/week) right as her first RN job in Ohio, then I simply don't believe that. Even with overtime, her wage would have been mid-30s. California may as well be a different country apparently. Where I live ED docs make about 350-400k/year and ED nurses make about $30/hr, and it's not the boonies. I'm not sure what's being argued at this point. Are you trying to discredit me by proving nurses actually are rich with a few anecdotes and therefore be able to continue pushing the "doctors should get paid more because nurses already get paid a ton" line of reasoning? I mean, the data's out there. Go to google and look up RN pay ranges. In most places you'll find $20-40/hr depending on experience

Anecdotally, I know another nurse making six figures, but she's the head of a department so your mileage may vary.

I just wanted to say that nursing is one field where your base rate per hour can be very misleading. My buddy's contract has a crazy amount of escalators and incentives (based on shift, call, time of last shift, etc. etc.) and he'll often excitedly tell me about days that he was able to stack a bunch of incentives and make 4-5X his normal rate. Now, that's not usually what he makes but the point is that it's hard to tell from a job listing how much a hardworking or senior nurse will make.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this is the case for the VAST majority of people in America no matter what field they are in.

The VAST majority of Americans work 10-12 hour days, 5-7 days a week? Not buying that. At least in my group of friends (and myself, when I was an engineer), everyone works in the 40-45 hour/week range.

I am 25 years old. I am a 3rd year medical student. This is something that I have never really understood. I frequently hear people saying that they are "sacrificing" the best years of their lives to become doctors. As a medical student, I don't feel this way at all. I love medicine and I love medical school. I feel it is a great privilege to be studying what I love and to learn something new and interesting every day. Do I work hard? Absolutely. But who doesn't? I have many friends my age who graduated from college after four years, didn't go to grad school, and are making good money (90k/year). However, they too are working hard. Many of them are working 70+hrs/week and some of them absolutely hate their jobs. It doesn't make sense to me that doing something I am passionate about is a waste of the best years of my life. I still get to spend time with my family, spend time with friends, volunteer, exercise, and go out on weekends. As I look at my life and compare it to many of my fellow 25 year old friends, I feel I have a great life. In no way do I feel like I am missing out on anything or sacrificing anything. On the contrary, I am gaining a lot and living experiences that many of my non-medical peers could only dream of. I can honestly say that I have loved every moment of medical school, even the hard moments. Having to work hard is not a burden to me because it is extremely rewarding to see the fruits of my labor.

Maybe I just got lucky. If I hated medical school then I could definitely see my current situation as a sacrifice. If I lived my current existence waiting for the time when I will become an attending and make a six figure salary, then I would definitely be sacrificing the best years of my life. This is not the case. I wake up everyday excited to go to school because I know that I will learn something new in the field that I love. Up to this point, the journey has been great and by no means a waste of my 20s.

I'm not sure what you're on, but I would really, really like some.

 

[rule out normal]

The VAST majority of Americans work 10-12 hour days, 5-7 days a week? Not buying that. At least in my group of friends (and myself, when I was an engineer), everyone works in the 40-45 hour/week range.



I'm not sure what you're on, but I would really, really like some.

I would bet most people work 30-40 hours a week. And they spend lots of that time dicking around, eating lunch, etc.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I would bet most people work 30-40 hours a week. And they spend lots of that time dicking around, eating lunch, etc.

Haha, yeah, I would imagine the ratio of actual work to work hours is considerably higher in medicine than most other careers.

 

[shark2000]

I would bet most people work 30-40 hours a week. And they spend lots of that time dicking around, eating lunch, etc.

4+

My lunch time: tell my colleague that I am leaving the work station, then run into the cafeteria, rapid scan of what is available, randomly buy one, rush back to my work station and start to eat. After the first bite the telephone rings because someone has a question about a study that was done 2 months ago.

I don't have any problem with my current life. The main problem is when people start to complain that doctors are overpaid.

 

[Substance]

4+

My lunch time: tell my colleague that I am leaving the work station, then run into the cafeteria, rapid scan of what is available, randomly buy one, rush back to my work station and start to eat. After the first bite the telephone rings because someone has a question about a study that was done 2 months ago.

I don't have any problem with my current life. The main problem is when people start to complain that doctors are overpaid.

We work hard. However, most of us do not "work" as "hard" as a mill laborer. However, the mill laborer has a job that is lowly skilled and can be easily replaced by another person. He also has a job for which mistakes are low-risk and generally inconsequential. He also never has to take responsibility for making decisions that can endanger people's lives on a daily basis.

Physicians are paid because they are capable of learning the large volume of knowledge on how disease works and how to help patients who suffer from illness, and not everyone has the inherent capability to do that, the same way not everyone has the inherent capability of making it to the NBA. Ours is a rare skillset. We make high-risk decisions in high-pressure situations so that people can live better, or even live at all. If we fail, we are personally held accountable. If we fail, people are hurt.

In my opinion we are not paid enough, especially the primary care docs.

No physician makes too much money.

 

[bronx43]

We work hard. However, most of us do not "work" as "hard" as a mill laborer. However, the mill laborer has a job that is lowly skilled and can be easily replaced by another person. He also has a job for which mistakes are low-risk and generally inconsequential. He also never has to take responsibility for making decisions that can endanger people's lives on a daily basis.

Physicians are paid because they are capable of learning the large volume of knowledge on how disease works and how to help patients who suffer from illness, and not everyone has the inherent capability to do that, the same way not everyone has the inherent capability of making it to the NBA. Ours is a rare skillset. We make high-risk decisions in high-pressure situations so that people can live better, or even live at all. If we fail, we are personally held accountable. If we fail, people are hurt.

In my opinion we are not paid enough, especially the primary care docs.

No physician makes too much money.

Whoa there, let's not tute our horns a bit TOO much. Physicians are paid, because there is demand for our services, along with a strict control of our supply. So, just like EVERYONE else in the world, our income is based on supply and demand - not what you think you can do. In fact, I would venture that there are more people out there capable of learning a lot of information than you would like to think. You don't need a very high IQ - you simply have to be not dumb and be motivated. There are far more people able to do medicine than there are those that can have a decent understanding of quantum mechanics or differential equations. There isn't a single concept in medicine that you cannot explain to another reasonably intelligent person and they would not understand, as it's all one step logic. There are infinite concepts in physics that you will NEVER understand regardless of the number of hours you put into it, unless you have the IQ for it. I find that most people can't process more than 3 logical steps/turns, and it's not something you can improve.

As I've said before, the current system makes it so it's impossible to actually quantify a physician's worth in dollars and cents, simply because it's outside of a free market system of pricing. You cannot price the value of an appendectomy when the consumers are almost entirely shielded from the cost. Is it worth $100? $1000? $1000000? How do you know and how can you demonstrate it?

 

[colbgw02]

Whoa there, let's not tute our horns a bit TOO much. Physicians are paid, because there is demand for our services, along with a strict control of our supply. So, just like EVERYONE else in the world, our income is based on supply and demand - not what you think you can do. In fact, I would venture that there are more people out there capable of learning a lot of information than you would like to think. You don't need a very high IQ - you simply have to be not dumb and be motivated. There are far more people able to do medicine than there are those that can have a decent understanding of quantum mechanics or differential equations. There isn't a single concept in medicine that you cannot explain to another reasonably intelligent person and they would not understand, as it's all one step logic. There are infinite concepts in physics that you will NEVER understand regardless of the number of hours you put into it, unless you have the IQ for it. I find that most people can't process more than 3 logical steps/turns, and it's not something you can improve.

As I've said before, the current system makes it so it's impossible to actually quantify a physician's worth in dollars and cents, simply because it's outside of a free market system of pricing. You cannot price the value of an appendectomy when the consumers are almost entirely shielded from the cost. Is it worth $100? $1000? $1000000? How do you know and how can you demonstrate it?

Your point holds, but I would venture to guess that a small minority of people can readily understand the concepts behind DWI/ADC, DTI, fMRI, or even MRS. Among radiologists, I feel like I have an above average understanding of these concepts, because it interests me, but the radiologists who use this stuff for research purposes laugh at my pitiful excuse for an understanding. Even basic MR physics normally causes 4th-year medical students, interns, and R1s - whom I would consider to be "reasonably intelligent" - to go cross-eyed after about 45 seconds. Again, I understand your point; I figured I'd just mention an exception here because this is a radiology forum, after all.

 

[womp]

Can you guys check back in in a couple of years after you've both been ground into a fine paste by your eighth chest pain admission and/or twelfth butt puss I&D?

Thank God I don't have to deal with butt puss or chest pain in ortho. We have our own crap though.

I agree with Sirach38 further above, as a med student there were several rotations where I got out at 3pm and have my weekends off, and I think to myself, this is great, this is what everybody else in the real world must be feeling. But after awhile, all that time starts to get mundane and unused. Initially, I would go out kayaking, hit the gym more, go out more with my wife, see some friends, did road trips, but as time went by, I'd just sit on my butt watching Netflix or dicking around on the Internet. And I look at my friends with 9-5 office jobs, and it's pretty much the same. Most went out about as much as I did with twice the amount of free time as I did. Life gets routine. Humans have a remarkable ability to plateau and get used to whatever leisure they're in and still feel less than fully content. Maybe I'm just a boring ass guy, but then you could argue medicine is perfect for me.

However, I do feel that our student debt levels are beginning to go out of control. There's no reason that doctors should be paying 7% interest rates on what is the safest student loans, when they could buy a house on the free market for 3.5%. Given the minimum wage level of residency salaries and the hours worked, and the fact that all our loans nowadays come from the federal government and not private banks, loan interest should be waived during residency (as they used to be). It's practically impossible for a resident who is single to pay even the interest on their loans while still providing shelter and food for himself, especially in cities where the top programs tend to be located. To have the interest then accrue is just morally wrong. Either pay residents more or waive the interest.

 

[TUGM]

Totally off topic, but I'm pretty sure butt puss and butt pus are two different things...

 

[Kaputt]

Thank God I don't have to deal with butt puss or chest pain in ortho. We have our own crap though.

I agree with Sirach38 further above, as a med student there were several rotations where I got out at 3pm and have my weekends off, and I think to myself, this is great, this is what everybody else in the real world must be feeling. But after awhile, all that time starts to get mundane and unused. Initially, I would go out kayaking, hit the gym more, go out more with my wife, see some friends, did road trips, but as time went by, I'd just sit on my butt watching Netflix or dicking around on the Internet. And I look at my friends with 9-5 office jobs, and it's pretty much the same. Most went out about as much as I did with twice the amount of free time as I did. Life gets routine. Humans have a remarkable ability to plateau and get used to whatever leisure they're in and still feel less than fully content. Maybe I'm just a boring ass guy, but then you could argue medicine is perfect for me.

However, I do feel that our student debt levels are beginning to go out of control. There's no reason that doctors should be paying 7% interest rates on what is the safest student loans, when they could buy a house on the free market for 3.5%. Given the minimum wage level of residency salaries and the hours worked, and the fact that all our loans nowadays come from the federal government and not private banks, loan interest should be waived during residency (as they used to be). It's practically impossible for a resident who is single to pay even the interest on their loans while still providing shelter and food for himself, especially in cities where the top programs tend to be located. To have the interest then accrue is just morally wrong. Either pay residents more or waive the interest.

Wait, you're in ortho? Then why are you posting on AuntMinnie...?

 

[DermViser]

I am 25 years old. I am a 3rd year medical student. This is something that I have never really understood. I frequently hear people saying that they are "sacrificing" the best years of their lives to become doctors. As a medical student, I don't feel this way at all. I love medicine and I love medical school. I feel it is a great privilege to be studying what I love and to learn something new and interesting every day. Do I work hard? Absolutely. But who doesn't? I have many friends my age who graduated from college after four years, didn't go to grad school, and are making good money (90k/year). However, they too are working hard. Many of them are working 70+hrs/week and some of them absolutely hate their jobs. It doesn't make sense to me that doing something I am passionate about is a waste of the best years of my life. I still get to spend time with my family, spend time with friends, volunteer, exercise, and go out on weekends. As I look at my life and compare it to many of my fellow 25 year old friends, I feel I have a great life. In no way do I feel like I am missing out on anything or sacrificing anything. On the contrary, I am gaining a lot and living experiences that many of my non-medical peers could only dream of. I can honestly say that I have loved every moment of medical school, even the hard moments. Having to work hard is not a burden to me because it is extremely rewarding to see the fruits of my labor.

Maybe I just got lucky. If I hated medical school then I could definitely see my current situation as a sacrifice. If I lived my current existence waiting for the time when I will become an attending and make a six figure salary, then I would definitely be sacrificing the best years of my life. This is not the case. I wake up everyday excited to go to school because I know that I will learn something new in the field that I love. Up to this point, the journey has been great and by no means a waste of my 20s.

Come back after finishing your MS-3 OB-Gyn and MS-3 General Surgery rotations, Mr. "I love medicine and I love medical school."

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Come back after finishing your MS-3 OB-Gyn and MS-3 General Surgery rotations, Mr. "I love medicine and I love medical school."

Can't you just accept that there is variability in how people see things? What happens if he goes through M3 and still has the same attitude. What will you tell him then, "wait till intern year?" What if he stills feel like his time has been worthwhile spent? Then is it "wait till you're an attending and find out how it's not all roses and you've wasted the last decade looking forward to an illusory notion... etc. etc." And what if he's an attending and he still sports the same outlook? Then what? Is he "crazy?" Does he "not know what he's missed/is missing?"

I mean, experience and probability is one thing, but you have to be open to the notion that some people will just not see things the same way as you do. Your experience is not 1+1=2. It's subjective and multi-factorial.

I feel like many times, when people are asked, "how was Experience A," they don't actually take the time to reflect back on it and really give a well thought out answer. They just parrot back the general consensus. It's like they only pay attention to the parts of the experience that people most frequently point out. This seems especially prevalent on SDN, where a complex, nuanced experience like medical school is distilled down to, "It sucked. It was a waste of my 20's."

 

[shark2000]

Can't you just accept that there is variability in how people see things? What happens if he goes through M3 and still has the same attitude. What will you tell him then, "wait till intern year?" What if he stills feel like his time has been worthwhile spent? Then is it "wait till you're an attending and find out how it's not all roses and you've wasted the last decade looking forward to an illusory notion... etc. etc." And what if he's an attending and he still sports the same outlook? Then what? Is he "crazy?" Does he "not know what he's missed/is missing?"

I mean, experience and probability is one thing, but you have to be open to the notion that some people will just not see things the same way as you do. Your experience is not 1
+1=2. It's subjective and multi-factorial.

I feel like many times, when people are asked, "how was Experience A," they don't actually take the time to reflect back on it and really give a well thought out answer. They just parrot back the general consensus. It's like they only pay attention to the parts of the experience that people most frequently point out. This seems especially prevalent on SDN, where a complex, nuanced experience like medical school is distilled down to, "It sucked. It was a waste of my 20's."

Good points.

But the poster is so ecstatic and so happy about being in medicine that if you don't know you think he has won the Megamillions 200 mil ticket. All of us have been through medical school. It is good. But there are always certain people who think that they have won a lottery because they are in medical school or a certain residency.

In my experience, people who are very excited in the beginning of the road, are one of the first ones who will become disappointed. Such level of excitement usually is a result of imagination and not reality. Once the same person sees the reality, the whole thing will change into a big disappointment. The happiest people in medicine or any other field are the ones who have "This is a job like any other job. It has its good and bad aspects. I like some aspects of it and I dislike some other aspects. But the whole thing is fine. Nothing is perfect" mentality.

 

[DermViser]

Good points.

But the poster is so ecstatic and so happy about being in medicine that if you don't know you think he has won the Megamillions 200 mil ticket. All of us have been through medical school. It is good. But there are always certain people who think that they have won a lottery if they are in medical school or a certain residency.

In my experience, people who are very excited in the beginning of the road are one of the first ones who will become disappointed. Such level of excitement usually is a result of imagination and not reality. Once the same person sees the reality, the whole things will change into a big disappointment. The happiest people in medicine or any other field are the ones who have "This is a job like any other job. It has its good and bad aspects. I like some aspects of it and I dislike some other aspects. But the whole think is fine. Nothing is perfect" mentality.

THIS. THIS. THIS.

 

[womp]

Wait, you're in ortho? Then why are you posting on AuntMinnie...?

Yup. Just wanted to post some match rate statistics there. I gave radiology and anesthesiology heavy consideration at one point. Decided against it because of current job market for radiology and uncertainty about the impact of CRNAs for anesthesiology. Still decent fields if you're really passionate about it. But I kind of liked a lot of things and didn't have a big obsession with any, so wavered a lot. I think that's actually pretty typical of medical students. It's hard to commit to something for 20-30 years after seeing something for 2 weeks or liking one mentor. In the real world, you could just quit your job or transfer, and move onto a different niche. I guess for the pessimists in medicine, that's another knock against this career.

 

[Kaputt]

Yup. Just wanted to post some match rate statistics there. I gave radiology and anesthesiology heavy consideration at one point. Decided against it because of current job market for radiology and uncertainty about the impact of CRNAs for anesthesiology. Still decent fields if you're really passionate about it. But I kind of liked a lot of things and didn't have a big obsession with any, so wavered a lot. I think that's actually pretty typical of medical students. It's hard to commit to something for 20-30 years after seeing something for 2 weeks or liking one mentor. In the real world, you could just quit your job or transfer, and move onto a different niche. I guess for the pessimists in medicine, that's another knock against this career.

brb heading to Orthogate to speculate about spine getting slashed and the gas forums to say "sucks to be you, bros" about CRNAs

 

[womp]

brb heading to Orthogate to speculate about spine getting slashed and the gas forums to say "sucks to be you, bros" about CRNAs

If spine reimbursement were drastically cut, I'd feel worse about the PP neurosurgeons.... Spine ortho guys can always do more joints and ortho fellowships are 1 yr.

No one wants to invest 6 years in a grueling NS residency to find out they'll make less than a hospitalist on an hourly basis, or even worse, can't even find a job.

 

[Kaputt]

If spine reimbursement were drastically cut, I'd feel worse about the PP neurosurgeons.... Spine ortho guys can always do more joints and ortho fellowships are 1 yr.

No one wants to invest 6 years in a grueling residency to find out they'll make less than a hospitalist on an hourly basis, or even worse, can't even find a job.

The musings of a 4th year who chose ortho over rads are not that important to the rads community. We have enough people in our community crying foul about the job market. We don't need outsiders doing it too.

 

[womp]

The musings of a 4th year who chose ortho over rads are not that important to the rads community. We have enough people in our community crying foul about the job market. We don't need outsiders doing it too.

Nevermind. Best of luck to you.

 

[shark2000]

If spine reimbursement were drastically cut, I'd feel worse about the PP neurosurgeons.... Spine ortho guys can always do more joints and ortho fellowships are 1 yr.

No one wants to invest 6 years in a grueling residency to find out they'll make less than a hospitalist on an hourly basis, or even worse, can't even find a job.

Ortho is a great field, no doubt. Show me a radiologist who makes less that hospitalists and I will show you 20 orthopods who hate every moment of their career/life (I am MSK radiologist and regularly see more orthopods than you have seen in your life).

My question is if you are happy with your choice, why you are hanging around in radiology forum and try to convince others (or yourself) that ortho is a right choice. What are you looking for here?