Aren't schools supposed to care if you're flunking a course?

[persia]

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I posted the other day about the misery in my anatomy class, and I am still fuming about the whole thing. I am really struggling with the lecture portion of the class and the last two exams (written) we have had to take the exam in a room with a loud student lounge right outside the door. 😱

Needless to say, it has been really hard for me to concentrate with the noise outside, and I absolutely feel my grade has suffered. This last time I did not even get a passing score, so you can imagine how mad I am about it. I have tried to speak to the professor and the several different lecturers about it but they just blow me off. The whole course is disorganized and we are left on our own to figure things out in the lab.

I am concerned that my lecture grade isn't even passing on this last exam and it is impacting my overall course grade. I don't want to flunk and yet, no one (meaning professor, ta's lecturers, etc) seems to care. I emailed the administration assistant to ask what I should do in order not to flunk, and she replied that it was not big deal if I flunked, I could just retake the course again. 😕 This seems insane, I mean, no help no tutoring no concern? Does this sound crazy to other people? I have an appointment to speak to someone else in administration, but I am not very optimistic at this point.

We were told there would be great support to help us succeed here, but right now I am not seeing any of it and I am really mad -

 

[wonderkid]

talk to your dean of student affairs

 

[!dr_nick!]

Are there other like-minded students in your class? More voices shouting makes it easier to be heard.

 

[Ypo.]

Keep trying to get the help. I'm sorry that it doesn't seem to coming forthwith.

The squeeky wheel gets the grease. If you need the help, its ultimately your responsibility to find it, so don't give up and keep being persistent. The fact that you are upset instead of apathetic about your grades is good...use that to your advantage.

 

[persia]

I am also going to speak with the Dean of Student Affairs, definitely. I was wondering tho, is it considered 'bad form' to go to the Dean about things? On the one hand, I know that's what they're there for, but on the other hand, will I get a reputation as a complainer or will it get back to the professor and then he'll have it in for me? I wouldn't do this lightly and I feel reluctant to do it as it is, but I can see no choice. I don't want to walk into the final and have the same **** as the last two exams. I am loosing points (and ALOT) due to this stupid room situation.

And as for other students, well they don't like the noise during the exams and the chaos of the lab either, but they are WAY too chicken to say or do anything about it. Everyone is concerned about repercussions or getting a bad rep from the administration and the prof. Why do I have to be the only one to speak up, it's so frustrating ...

 

[Ypo.]

If you are tactful and act professional in your requests for dealing with these issues, you won't develop a bad reputation or offend anyone. Even if you act very demanding and complaining, I seriously doubt the professor will try to 'get you', although they may decide they don't like your personality. For one thing, its hard to 'get' a student with multiple choice tests. For another, I just don't think they would behave so unprofessionally.

 

[azzarah]

Why don't you just ask the other students to shut the hell up? you can do it nicely of course. 😉 Email the dean and ask if there are any tutors available to help you. If you need to see a therapist about adjusting to med school, you can inquire about that from your student health center or whatever. Don't worry too much about what other people think about you. Get help ASAP...you dont' want to fail anatomy.
It looks much better on your transcript to get help when you need it and pass than to fail.

 

[missmod]

I think most schools have an ombudsman, who is someone who is part of the faculty, but designated to speak for the students. They're a little different than the Dean of the Student Affairs b/c they are on the side of the students in the ombudsman role. You may try finding out of there is such a person at your school, it may be easier to talk to him/her.

 

[Su4n2]

ear plugs...

 

[dancinjenn]

Do you have a faculty advisor? Or a class counselor? We have a full-time counselor for every class and are instructed to see her for everything from excused absences to finding a left-handed desk to take the test in. Go to the dean...he/she should be involved with students having any difficulties. We also have a full-time study advisor who can give pointers, help us revamp study skills, and set up free tutors who are 2nd years. Try to find if any of those options are available. I also had problems with the written...even though my practical scores were always good...and our study advisor helped me find resources. Hope this helps.

 

[jennie 21]

ear plugs...

Brilliant suggestion. Or maybe try bringing your iPod or Walkman to the exam?

 

[Wrigleyville]

Brilliant suggestion. Or maybe try bringing your iPod or Walkman to the exam?

I'm guessing they wouldn't allow those because of cheating concerns, but the earplugs sound like an obvious and effective solution.

 

[persia]

Hey thanks for these great responses! Today I was at lab and for the FIRST time all block, which is about 13 weeks now, the professor said hello to me in lab and when I asked him if he could help me he actually came over and helped me. This is the first time the whole semester that he has ever come to my table in anatomy. Usually he only talks with the super smart tables. He seemed nice enough so about 20 minutes later I approached him in his office privately and told him my concerns about the noise, my failing grade as a result and my concerns about passing the course. He didn't seem to give a shish-kabob, so to speak, but I pushed on ahead and I pushed for a new room asignment, etc. He really is a piece of work, and I wasn't sure if I was actually looking at what I have to clean up after my dog when I walk her ....

He seemed to think I was being flaky for not being able to deal with the noise, and that just made me irrate. But I figured I had nothing to loose so I carefully just came out and said what was on my mind. I also pointed out to him that that was the first time he had ever come to my table, ever, and he seemed kind of apologetic about that. He said it's not his concern if students fail, and so I asked him several times to clarify what that mean, and to repeat that to me. After two or three goes with that he began to soften and I just kept pushing him on that: 'so there's really nothing available for students who struggle?' stuff like that.

By the end, he was really trying to make an effort to help me and said he would come to my table every period at least once to check in with me and make sure everything was going well.

What a &*^%$ jerk. At our school we are forced to write evaluations of the profs and the courses, and we are asked to be as honest as possible. So, that's what I plan to do. Plus work with a good tutor a friend found for me. And I get to sit in a quiet room for the exam - 🙂

Ugh, what a big pain in the butt. I am still going to talk with the dean, but this has been a real drag.

 

[Kevbot]

I am also going to speak with the Dean of Student Affairs, definitely. I was wondering tho, is it considered 'bad form' to go to the Dean about things? On the one hand, I know that's what they're there for, but on the other hand, will I get a reputation as a complainer or will it get back to the professor and then he'll have it in for me? I wouldn't do this lightly and I feel reluctant to do it as it is, but I can see no choice. I don't want to walk into the final and have the same **** as the last two exams. I am loosing points (and ALOT) due to this stupid room situation.

And as for other students, well they don't like the noise during the exams and the chaos of the lab either, but they are WAY too chicken to say or do anything about it. Everyone is concerned about repercussions or getting a bad rep from the administration and the prof. Why do I have to be the only one to speak up, it's so frustrating ...

I would be incredibly pissed as well if I had a proff that couldn't lecture well. But, the reality is, that writing a bad survey at the end of the course will do no good. It's too late at that point and its not likely that your grade will be changed. And if you are labeled a complainer and you get help and pass, it's better than if you didn't complain and failed. Am I right?

Anyway, just out of curiousity:

Are your proffs lecture exams so specific that you can't learn all the material from your textbook?

Does your school have a scribe service that you could be using to clarify your own notes?

Good luck with everything

 

[Ypo.]

Hey thanks for these great responses! Today I was at lab and for the FIRST time all block, which is about 13 weeks now, the professor said hello to me in lab and when I asked him if he could help me he actually came over and helped me. This is the first time the whole semester that he has ever come to my table in anatomy. Usually he only talks with the super smart tables. He seemed nice enough so about 20 minutes later I approached him in his office privately and told him my concerns about the noise, my failing grade as a result and my concerns about passing the course. He didn't seem to give a shish-kabob, so to speak, but I pushed on ahead and I pushed for a new room asignment, etc. He really is a piece of work, and I wasn't sure if I was actually looking at what I have to clean up after my dog when I walk her ....

He seemed to think I was being flaky for not being able to deal with the noise, and that just made me irrate. But I figured I had nothing to loose so I carefully just came out and said what was on my mind. I also pointed out to him that that was the first time he had ever come to my table, ever, and he seemed kind of apologetic about that. He said it's not his concern if students fail, and so I asked him several times to clarify what that mean, and to repeat that to me. After two or three goes with that he began to soften and I just kept pushing him on that: 'so there's really nothing available for students who struggle?' stuff like that.

By the end, he was really trying to make an effort to help me and said he would come to my table every period at least once to check in with me and make sure everything was going well.

What a &*^%$ jerk. At our school we are forced to write evaluations of the profs and the courses, and we are asked to be as honest as possible. So, that's what I plan to do. Plus work with a good tutor a friend found for me. And I get to sit in a quiet room for the exam - 🙂

Ugh, what a big pain in the butt. I am still going to talk with the dean, but this has been a real drag.

Well, I'm proud of you. Its hard to ask for help, especially if you feel like you aren't being listened to. But it sounds like you managed to stay on good terms with him AND get what you wanted. good job and good luck. Keep up with it 👍

 

[Meat Cookie]

Funny how US med students expect their hands to be held and their noses wiped when they run into academic difficulty. At most US schools, actually, they do get it...once you're accepted, they will bend over backwards to get you the help you need to push you through. Such a thing doesn't exist at a Carib school because of the need to get rid of the deadbeats that don't belong in medicine...if you do poorly, you fail, plain and simple - no handholding, no remediation, no sympathetic shoulder to cry on. Makes you wonder how many US med students would never make it in the Caribbean due to the lack of support...and perhaps we can even (dare I say) give a little respect to the students who do make it.

 

[Hoya11]

Funny how US med students expect their hands to be held and their noses wiped when they run into academic difficulty. At most US schools, actually, they do get it...once you're accepted, they will bend over backwards to get you the help you need to push you through. Such a thing doesn't exist at a Carib school because of the need to get rid of the deadbeats that don't belong in medicine...if you do poorly, you fail, plain and simple - no handholding, no remediation, no sympathetic shoulder to cry on. Makes you wonder how many US med students would never make it in the Caribbean due to the lack of support...and perhaps we can even (dare I say) give a little respect to the students who do make it.

US students expect it because of what it took to get into school in the first place, something students in the carribean clearly dont understand..

 

[persia]

Hey Meat Cookie,

I have alot of respect for people who are willing to go the Carribean route and I don't for a second think they have it easy. I know how hard they have to work to do what alot of US students take for granted (third year rotations are hard to get, coming back to the US and having to take the toefl exam, plus the fmg label, etc.). I certainly don't want any hand holding, but I do expect a certain level of fairness and an attempt to actually teach or encourage students. And that would be because the Administration and faculty keep telling us they want to provide that. If they didn't say that, I wouldn't expect it.

What I am having a REALLY hard time with - and so are alot of other students in my class - is that the faculty of our anatomy dept do not seem to care about the non-superstar students, which is most of us. There is a real observation that the senior faculty cherish the smart students and spend all their time with them, while the rest of us are struggling on their own. The professor also gets really angry when I try and ask him simple stuff and says things to me like: you're big people, you can figure this out. 😕

Today he came by and asked me how I was doing, and I said not very well and I was having a hard time and needed some help. He just walked away.

In short, he is a complete #$$hole. Pardon my French ... Alot of the ta's are also really reluctant to help. Today one of the ta's was so unhelpful she would only say things like: oh, yeah, that's an artery. That's a vein. Period. It was really harsh. Something is really wrong here and alot of us don't like it.

My appointment with the dean is on Monday - wish me luck 😀

 

[theprizefighter]

Persia,

You go to a med school in CA, right? It's a little shocking to me that such things are happening out there. I was always under the impression that Cali med schools were stellar just because it's so difficult to gain admission to them. Of course, I don't want to generalize all Cali med schools but it looks like things are not always what they seem...

Good luck

 

[azzarah]

Next time he comes over ask him specific questions. Like, I am having a hard time finding the inguinal canal here. Should I go deeper or is it located more superficially?
Also, why are you doubting yourself? Who says you are not as smart as everyone else? Just because you did poorly on ONE anatomy exam, it doesn't mean you are not smart. Plus, you WILL learn from your mistakes and kick a$$ on the next test! Have faith in yourself!!!!

Hey Meat Cookie,

I have alot of respect for people who are willing to go the Carribean route and I don't for a second think they have it easy. I know how hard they have to work to do what alot of US students take for granted (third year rotations are hard to get, coming back to the US and having to take the toefl exam, plus the fmg label, etc.). I certainly don't want any hand holding, but I do expect a certain level of fairness and an attempt to actually teach or encourage students. And that would be because the Administration and faculty keep telling us they want to provide that. If they didn't say that, I wouldn't expect it.

What I am having a REALLY hard time with - and so are alot of other students in my class - is that the faculty of our anatomy dept do not seem to care about the non-superstar students, which is most of us. There is a real observation that the senior faculty cherish the smart students and spend all their time with them, while the rest of us are struggling on their own. The professor also gets really angry when I try and ask him simple stuff and says things to me like: you're big people, you can figure this out. 😕

Today he came by and asked me how I was doing, and I said not very well and I was having a hard time and needed some help. He just walked away.

In short, he is a complete #$$hole. Pardon my French ... Alot of the ta's are also really reluctant to help. Today one of the ta's was so unhelpful she would only say things like: oh, yeah, that's an artery. That's a vein. Period. It was really harsh. Something is really wrong here and alot of us don't like it.

My appointment with the dean is on Monday - wish me luck 😀

 

[Maple]

Persia,

You go to a med school in CA, right? It's a little shocking to me that such things are happening out there. I was always under the impression that Cali med schools were stellar just because it's so difficult to gain admission to them. Of course, I don't want to generalize all Cali med schools but it looks like things are not always what they seem...

Good luck

Exactly what I was thinking....

I'm sorry your experience has been so tough Persia...keep at it..it has to get better. If you stick it out, they will have to acknowledge you. 👍

good luck!

Maple

 

[persia]

Hey thanks for the support!

I come from California but I am in school somewhere else. I've been talking to more students and they hate the class too (for the same reasons), but are just trying to get through it. I have a good tutor from the second year class and he has been a big help so far. Mostly, yes, my confidence has taken a real beating and having such unsupportive faculty hasn't helped bring it back up.

I know there will always be people who are difficult or even obstructive as we go along in our careers, and so I am trying to look at this as a learning experience, and this guy is just my teacher ... 😉

 

[Sage880]

Just something to say about the profs spending so much time with the star students... it may suck but can't you understand it?

I'm in med school and I also coach a martial arts club. There are a big range of students in the club and I always spend the most time with the most skilled (not talented) students. I hate teaching the same things over and over again - I wonder why they haven't been practiced since last class. The people who have obviously been working on stuff and just need minor corrections or suggestions or ideas is a better use of my time I think.

It's the same with anatomy - the doctors around the lab come over and quiz people and there's a division. The students who know 90% of what they're doing because they studied before get all the attention because the doctors start pointing out the really hard to understand points. The students who are still struggling to see the major arteries and veins get ignored. I think the the doctors just wonder why they hadn't properly prepared for the class.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm just saying I can understand why the doctors spend so much time with the best students. I don't spend any time fighting over whether it's fair or right. I just accept that this is the way it is and try to get it to work to my advantage by reading up lots before I come to class.

 

[Sage880]

Oh, and not to make a big plug for Ireland or anything but in our anatomy class there are 30 students and 3 doctors and like 6 4th year students. My biggest complaint is that there's always 2 people hovering near by waiting to pounce on anyone with a question because they're so bored.

They do baby the students a lot here though. We have had our hand held through most things so far but they're slowly starting to cut the umbilical cord. Still, I'm not sure but I have a feeling that if you start failing here the professors might drop by your house and physically hold you down and make you study.

 

[fang]

Persia,

That's great you're making a big effort to change the situation-- I bet a lot of people feel the same way you do but don't care enough to pursue it!

I was in a sort of similar situation... my lab table was in the corner, and the faculty tended to skip it when they went around to help students. We solved the problem by sending one person off to find an instructor while the rest of us thought up some good questions to ask... that way we made sure someone came to our table a few times during each lab, and we had plenty of questions answered. We all did well in the class, but I remember that was frustrating.

Maybe take an approach when you talk to the admin that focuses on you're thoughts/feelings rather than pointing out their problems directly-- you'll get more milage out of them and it won't be percieved as whining. Also, I think anyone can ace anatomy if they put in enough hours... you only failed one test, there's plenty of time to make it up!!

 

[phoenixsupra]

Oh, and not to make a big plug for Ireland or anything but in our anatomy class there are 30 students and 3 doctors and like 6 4th year students. My biggest complaint is that there's always 2 people hovering near by waiting to pounce on anyone with a question because they're so bored.

They do baby the students a lot here though. We have had our hand held through most things so far but they're slowly starting to cut the umbilical cord. Still, I'm not sure but I have a feeling that if you start failing here the professors might drop by your house and physically hold you down and make you study.

Yeah, they "baby" the students. That's cuz the students there ARE babies. Seventeen years old and fresh out of highschool. Isn't the class size more than 30. That's not the Royal College of Surgeons you're talking about is it?

 

[Sage880]

Yeah, they "baby" the students. That's cuz the students there ARE babies. Seventeen years old and fresh out of highschool. Isn't the class size more than 30. That's not the Royal College of Surgeons you're talking about is it?

All the Irish in our class are 18 or 19 except for a couple mature Irish students. But yeah, they still are right out of highschool big time. But at the same time, their version of the SAT's is much harder then the SAT and the people in the class have gotten close to perfect on it (especially this year). They're young but they're not idiots or totallly naive to what goes into taking a tough course.

It's 30 because we alternate days in the anatomy lab. 30 one afternoon and 30 the next during the week. 60 people in the class total.

As for the babying though, roughly 30 of the students are Irish and the rest are from other countries. About half of those are Malaysian though so they tend to be a little younger then the North American students. All and all, I think they go a little overboard with the hand holding - especially with the "if you're not studing THIS afternoon - you will fail!" lectures.