PhD/PsyD Argosy...but with a twist!

[Parakletos]

I have a great deal of trepidation in asking this question as most on here don’t seem very fond of the school in question, but here it goes:


I have been accepted and am currently enrolled in the Psy.D program at The Arizona School of Professional Psychology at Argosy University. Is this terrible?

First off, let me explain a bit about myself.

My undergraduate is a 3.65 in Biblical Studies from a private Christian University in Arizona.

I have about 35-40 graduate credits from a Master of Arts in Professional Counseling from Phoenix Seminary in Arizona and was a 3.02 GPA student there (yes that .02 matter to me!).

So, I don’t have a TON of what a lot of programs are looking for in their student’s backgrounds. That being said, I do think I am fairly intelligent. I mean, I received a B+ in a theology course taught by Wayne Grudem, if you know who that is you might know what that entails. I don’t disclose this to be boastful, but to illustrate that in my previous field I am well educated.

That all being said, the reason I looked at Argosy was because it (and Midwestern) were the only APA accredited PsyD programs in Arizona (I can’t afford to move, I am married and have a young son, and my wife’s job is too good). To me, I think a PsyD degree from Argosy is going to carry more weight in the health field than a LPC from Phoenix Seminary (I am not downplaying Phoenix Seminary by any means, it is a fine institution, I am just not sure many know that it even exists outside of the Theological community).

I am looking to pursue a more clinical/counseling career, and like the idea of working for the VA, possibly joining the Air Force, private practice, or possibly teaching at a small Christian university later in life.

For someone like me, with my background, is a PsyD from the Arizona site a bad idea? Also, I know many have mentioned it really depends a lot on the specific site itself.


Here are some of the faculty: http://clinical.argosy.edu/locations/phoenix/faculty


Louise Baca – Ph.D. from ASU

Ana Bustamante – Ph.D. from UofArizona

Bhupin Butaney –Ph.D. from St. John’s University and Ed.M from Harvard


Thanks all!


Kind Regards,

EDIT: This campus' PsyD program is APA accredited, but their match rate to an APA accredited internship has ranged from 56-35% over the years, the most recent being 35%.

EDIT 2: The program Dean has this in his bio: "Dr. Wechsler is a member of the Arizona State Board of Psychologist Examiners serving his second term of 5 years. He also served on the Board of Directors at the Arizona Psychology Training Consortium."

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[Parakletos]

Just to clarify to the moderators, I thought my particular question was a bit more specific than just a general argosy thread, which is why I created it. Let me know if this is not the case Thank you.

 

[WisNeuro]

This school has terrible accredited match rates, which you will need if you want to work in the VA. In the VA I have seen about 5-6 applications from Argosy-Phoenix, none were rankable. Last 4 years accredited match rates 45, 44, 38, 38. You will be swimming upstream to overcome the reputation. It's doable, but that's an expensive gamble to take when you will have a hard time securing an internship.

In the end, you need to do what you need to do, but my honest feeling is that this school is part of the problem in the field, doesn't adequately train psychologists, and does not even come close to delivering value for what is paid by students.

 

[erg923]

I have a great deal of trepidation in asking this question as most on here don’t seem very fond of the school in question, but here it goes:


I have been accepted and am currently enrolled in the Psy.D program at The Arizona School of Professional Psychology at Argosy University. Is this terrible?

First off, let me explain a bit about myself.

My undergraduate is a 3.65 in Biblical Studies from a private Christian University in Arizona.

I have about 35-40 graduate credits from a Master of Arts in Professional Counseling from Phoenix Seminary in Arizona and was a 3.02 GPA student there (yes that .02 matter to me!).

So, I don’t have a TON of what a lot of programs are looking for in their student’s backgrounds. That being said, I do think I am fairly intelligent. I mean, I received a B+ in a theology course taught by Wayne Grudem, if you know who that is you might know what that entails. I don’t disclose this to be boastful, but to illustrate that in my previous field I am well educated.

That all being said, the reason I looked at Argosy was because it (and Midwestern) were the only APA accredited PsyD programs in Arizona (I can’t afford to move, I am married and have a young son, and my wife’s job is too good). To me, I think a PsyD degree from Argosy is going to carry more weight in the health field than a LPC from Phoenix Seminary (I am not downplaying Phoenix Seminary by any means, it is a fine institution, I am just not sure many know that it even exists outside of the Theological community).

I am looking to pursue a more clinical/counseling career, and like the idea of working for the VA, possibly joining the Air Force, private practice, or possibly teaching at a small Christian university later in life.

For someone like me, with my background, is a PsyD from the Arizona site a bad idea? Also, I know many have mentioned it really depends a lot on the specific site itself.


Here are some of the faculty: http://clinical.argosy.edu/locations/phoenix/faculty


Louise Baca – Ph.D. from ASU

Ana Bustamante – Ph.D. from UofArizona

Bhupin Butaney –Ph.D. from St. John’s University and Ed.M from Harvard


Thanks all!


Kind Regards,

EDIT: This campus' PsyD program is APA accredited, but their match rate to an APA accredited internship has ranged from 56-35% over the years, the most recent being 35%.

EDIT 2: The program Dean has this in his bio: "Dr. Wechsler is a member of the Arizona State Board of Psychologist Examiners serving his second term of 5 years. He also served on the Board of Directors at the Arizona Psychology Training Consortium."

First, whats the twist here?

Second, you arent willing to move across a state border for grad school, yet you might want to join the Air Force?! Explain that...

Third, where the faculty went to school is irrelevant. What are they doing now and how involved are their students in it? What do you get from it? What is their (Argosy's) track record of placing students in the positions you ideally want as a psychologist? The VA pretty much has their pick of whomever they want, so the odds that they are going to prefer the training that comes with the typical Argosy program over most others is probably slim.

Fourth, while it is certainly considerate of you to think about your family's geographic needs, why aren't you equally concerned about the financial needs? How much are you going to give Argosy for all this? Then, how much will you likely make per year? Then, calculate monthly loan repayment.

 

[deleted343839]

I am looking to pursue a more clinical/counseling career, and like the idea of working for the VA, possibly joining the Air Force, private practice, or possibly teaching at a small Christian university later in life.

For someone like me, with my background, is a PsyD from the Arizona site a bad idea? Also, I know many have mentioned it really depends a lot on the specific site itself.

[Edited in light of info below re: program graduate stats, and common sense.]

Yes, it's a bad idea.

 

[MCParent]

I can’t afford to move

Then you can't afford the extraordinary debt from going to that program.

To me, I think a PsyD degree from Argosy is going to carry more weight in the health field than a LPC from Phoenix Seminary (I am not downplaying Phoenix Seminary by any means, it is a fine institution, I am just not sure many know that it even exists outside of the Theological community).

This is not The Giver. Those are not your only options.

Here are some of the faculty: http://clinical.argosy.edu/locations/phoenix/faculty
...
Dr. Wechsler....

Irrelevant.

 

[bmedclinic]

Then you can't afford the extraordinary debt from going to that program.

This is not The Giver. Those are not your only options.

Irrelevant.

smart move though, to have a litigation consultant on staff. Clearly, Agrosy learned some lessons.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just checked out their own employment brochure. Only 60% of recent graduates employed in a field related to their degree with an average salary of 55k. Wow, just wow.

 

[thewesternsky]

Just checked out their own employment brochure. Only 60% of recent graduates employed in a field related to their degree with an average salary of 55k. Wow, just wow.

...And they put that in a BROCHURE? Wow.

Can you link? I can't find that particular area of their website.

I have this:

http://ge.argosy.edu/programoffering/971

But they refuse to disclose job placement stats at that link.

 

[WisNeuro]

http://content.argosy.edu/assets/pdf/AU/Sci/graduate-stats/phoenix.pdf

 

[erg923]

Clinical Psychology - PsyD 20 0 20 12 60.0% $55,177

Flip a coin about whether your will actually work as a psychologist. Then do it for Mcdonalds manager wage. Good job, Argosy!

 

[erg923]

I like this too...seems like some curriculum redesign is in order here, no?

Q. How long will it take me to complete this program?

A, The program is designed to take 60 months to complete. Of those that completed the program in 2013-2014, 24% finished in 60 months.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Clinical Psychology - PsyD 20 0 20 12 60.0% $55,177

Flip a coin about whther your will actually work as a psychologist. Then do it for Mcdonalds manager wage. Nice! Good job, Argosy!

To be fair, they stated that they are looking at the six month period right after they graduate so it includes people getting their postdoc hours before licensure. I only made about 42k during my postdoc and I think 50k is probably pretty good currently.

 

[erg923]

To be fair, they stated that they are looking at the six month period right after they graduate so it includes people getting their postdoc hours before licensure. I only made about 42k during my postdoc and I think 50k is probably pretty good currently.

Why are only 60% of them working?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Why are only 60% of them working?

Debters' Prison?

 

[WisNeuro]

http://ge.argosy.edu/programoffering/971

About $121k purely in tuition and books. Also,

"What are my chances of getting a job when I graduate?

The job placement rate for students who completed this program is *%.


* This institution is not currently required to calculate a job placement rate for program completers."

 

[UnknownPsych]

The median amount of debt for program graduates is shown below:
Federal loans: $191,950

 

[PsyDr]

1) Talking about how well educated you are is pointless. Okay, so you did better than some in undergrad. So did everyone else in grad school.

2) Faculty: you gotta think about the success and drive of someone who would want to teach full time in a school that pays like 60k/year with no research funding. The bright and shining stars of the program are not going to turn down a Harvard appointment to go teach in argosy. If you had a specific thing you were interested in, this might make a difference. Employer do not care where your professors trained. They care where you trained.

3) Being geographically limited is a big problem for anyone in this field. You are will likely be required to move with match, you might have to move for post doc, and maybe for jobs, etc. There are also not a ton of jobs. At the end of the 4th year, you will likely have to move. Then find a post doc. Then a job. Just look up how many psychologists there are in your area. Then look up the population of your area. Then multiply the prevalence of mental illness by the population. Then times the percent insured. Now divide by number of psychologists. Then take a guess at the percent that both want and have time for therapy. Hint: if Phoenix isn't already fairly saturated, graduating 50 psychologists a year will get it there.

BUT, my biggest concern is that it is often the case that you might not know exactly what is encompassed in training. You are talking about 5 years of full time work, which means your child will need daycare. This is not a "I'll take classes from 9-noon, while timmy is in pre-K". This is full time study, with additional required practica for 20hrs/week. Plus nights writing papers, reports, studying, more writing, like a lot of writing, reading, more reading, like a lot of reading, etc.

4) If someone offered you 200k to move, would you? Because, saying you can't afford to move, while simultaneously talking about taking on 200k in debt belies a thinking of the present over riding the future. Is your wife going to pay your tuition? Because you can run the numbers and figure out: free tuition +wife takes a huge paycut vs. 200k @6.5% for 20 years.

5) Your career prospects seem all over the place. In some regards they should, and that's kinda normal. But you are talking about a 200k investment.

6) What is your plan if you are part of the 65% that doesn't get matched? I'm using context clues to guess that it is not "strip my way out of debt".

 

[AcronymAllergy]

RE: PSYDR's post, I think it's also important to note that even if you end up making use of IBR, you're still likely to pay $200k+ on your loans when all is said and done. For example, a monthly payment of $700 x 25 years = $210,000. You then, as things currently stand, have the amount forgiven after those 25 years taxed as income.

Just an additional point to consider.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I can't speak to the small Christian college idea, but if you want to increase your clinical/counseling knowledge and experience, and you're geographically limited, I'd recommend going to a reputable clinical social work program over Argosy. Their stats are terrible, yikes.

I figured it wouldn't be too difficult to see how your proposed program does in terms of landing at the local va at least. Also, my best guess is that of the options you suggested, va would be most likely to allow you a local employment option while paying a salary high enough to maybe offset your debt. I looked up the Internship brochures for the internships at Phoenix VA and, for some variety, the Tucson VA. Though not every psychologist would necessarily be involved in internship training, I thought it would provide some decent information about the training of their staff. Caveat: I did this quickly and did not verify that every single program was correctly identified as professional school or not. I made a quick decision based on name or prior knowledge.

Phoenix:
5 supervisors got psyd at a professional school, 2 of whom went to arizona school of prof psych or Argosy. The rest (21) have PhDs from traditional universities (one being fuller - which may be interesting due to your religious interest).
Academic affiliations of interns over the last 2 years:
New Mexico State University
Loma Linda University x4
Arizona State University
University of Miami
Palo Alto University x2
PGSP- Stanford Psy.D. Consortium Program
Illinois School of Professional Psychology, Chicago
Arizona State University
Florida Institute of Technology
University of Texas – Austin

Tucson:
1 supervisor got phd at a professional school, 0 of whom went to arizona school of prof psych or Argosy. The rest (13) have PhDs or PsyDs from traditional universities (one, again, being fuller - which may be interesting due to your religious interest).
Academic affiliations of interns over the last 4 years:
Nova Southeastern University x2
Catholic University of America
Florida Institute of Technology
University of Missouri-St. Louis
University of Southern Mississippi
Alliant/CSPP-LA
Washington State University
Pacific Graduate School of Psychology x2
Pepperdine University
Loma Linda University
Arizona State University x2
Washington U. in Saint Louis
Seattle Pacific University

Let's say phoenix Argosy graduates 20 a year. I'm not convinced your odds of staying local and getting a va job are great if you get a degree from there.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Why are only 60% of them working?

Because they couldn't get a job?
Can't really defend that stat and wasn't really defending the school, but if you are in the top half of the class apparently it can at least work for them. Basically 50/50 gamble on about 200K.

It could actually be worse than that, too. I know that my program offered a substantial grant for qualified students. We were the ones with the high GREs and solid experience from what I recall. These schools have an incentive to try to get some good students in and they are the ones who are in the top half who can make a go of it.

 

[Lyra33]

I wouldn't do it. Aside from the interest in teaching, what are the other reasons for wanting a PsyD? If you just want to do private practice, an LPC will be perfectly fine for that, and cost much less money and time. The time commitment and debt that is going to be involved in getting this degree honestly won't be worth it. Especially since you have a child, think about trying to pay for the things your child needs while trying to pay back student loans. I have a decent-paying job and I don't have anyone else to support, and thinking about all my loan repayment is daunting to me every month.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Based on the cost (easily $200k+ after tuition, fees, compound interest, etc), poor match rate (really really bad), and overall reputation of the program (poor)….I cannot see a way anyone could objectively say this would be a good idea. Financially it will be crippling and professionally it may leave you at a significant disadvantage if you can't beat the odd at literally every fork in the road (practica, internship, post-doc, etc).

 

[bcliff]

http://www.theonion.com/article/report-most-profit-colleges-started-effort-pay-own-50618

 

[WisNeuro]

Wait. What's the twist? Is the twist that there was no actual twist? Damn you M. Night!!!!!!

 

[cara susanna]

The twist is horrible debt and poor employment prospects with a cherry flavor instead of grape.

 

[futureapppsy2]

The twist is horrible debt and poor employment prospects with a cherry flavor instead of grape.

Why would have that when I could have terrible debt, poor employment prospects, and delicious non-fat ice milk (unflavored, of course)?

 

[ikibah]

i was not disappointed by these reponses

 

[futureapppsy2]

i was not disappointed by these reponses

Idk... no one seemed to appreciate my unflavored ice milk reference! Do you all have a bunch of old paint cans in your garages or something?

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

The faculty bio of the guy who specializes in 'Trauma/Abuse' appears to be psychodynamic in orientation. If you really want to work for the VA (presumably several years from now) that might be a difficult sell considering how much emphasis the VA puts on evidence-based or empirically-supported psychotherapeutic treatment approaches in its practitioners.

 

[Chalupacabra]

Idk... no one seemed to appreciate my unflavored ice milk reference! Do you all have a bunch of old paint cans in your garages or something?

Your frequent Simpsons references are one of the highlights of this board, for sure.

 

[Sendtrees]

I would love to know why the OP thought that the response to his special reasons for wanting to go to Argosy would be any different from everyone else's special reasons. Cynically, I do think it's possible that if he stays in his geographic location and cultural niche, he could make a go of it in private practice with people who think they need a Christian therapist. But his spiritual quest does not make the terrible financial decision any less disastrous.