Argosy Dallas PsyD?

[futureapppsy2]

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This program was sued for allegedly misleading students about their accreditation status and was featured in the PBS Frontline program on for-profit schools. It appears to have been wiped from Argosy Dallas website, so I'm assuming that it shut down or is shutting down. Does anyone know when that happened or what the outcome of the lawsuit was? I'm guessing that the program never became accredited.

Thanks!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Good question!

I remember the thread we had on that…maybe a year and a half ago? I was hoping that was the first of multiple lawsuits, as I heard rumblings of similar tactics at other places.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Good question!

I remember the thread we had on that…maybe a year and a half ago? I was hoping that was the first of multiple lawsuits, as I heard rumblings of similar tactics at other places.

Old threads here for reference: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/argosy-university-dallas-psyd-program.549874/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pbs-frontline-for-profit-universities.725013/

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

EDMC closed the PsyD programs at Argosy Campuses that were not APA Accredited. The Seattle, Denver, and Dallas PsyD programs are doing Teach Out as are some other PsyD programs such as Forest Institute.

The class action Lawsuit for Argosy-Dallas was settled in 12/2013 for 3.3 million dollars but Argosy did not have to admit liability.

The lawsuit from students at the Denver Campus was from the EdD Counseling program and they reached a 3.3 million settlement. It was about marketing staff receiving bonuses for recruiting students.

The marketing department at the Dallaa Campus due to it being a new campus were informed that the PsyD program was in the process of applying for APA accreditation not that they would be APA accredited before they graduated.

Most of the students transferred from the Dallas PsyD program to other Argosy APA accredited campuses. I was close to finishing so I continued and graduated with match at an APA accredited Internship and I am now licensed in three States. I hold HSP credentials and work and make a salary in the $150-$200 thousand range. Most of the students in the class action lawsuit are licensed psychologist with good income. The lawsuit caused problems with incoming classes but the earlier classes did well and some of them ended up getting jobs with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Medical Schools, Universities, and other Federal jobs.

 

[PsyDr]

This confirms some things for me.

 

[erg923]

I hold HSP credentials and work and make a salary in the $150-$200 thousand range.

This is make believe.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

This is make believe.

It is not make believe. We just had our reunion last Friday night with some 200 alumni and all of us are licensed with good jobs. Some are working at UTSW, UT- Dallas Brain Health, UT-Arlington, Carswell Federal Women's Prison, Ohio State Medical School, Larned State Hospital, State Hospital in Pineville, LA, Medical Center in Baton Rouge, Medical School in Indiana, Successful Private Practice, and many other top jobs.

The whole Class Action lawsuit was engineered by two disgruntled students and Frontline took the bait as did a Dallas Attorney. Argosy being one of the most successful professional schools was used as the lead in to gain viewers but actually the proprietary certificate programs were exploiting students and they were not able to find jobs with Medical billing or other Nursing assistant jobs. This was not true at Argosy as we did internships, graduated, became licensed Psychologist, acquired professional jobs, and are successful. This includes the 30 students in the lawsuit as 25 of those students are successful licensed psychologist.

 

[PsyDr]

What's the forensic payor mix and number of hours per week?

 

[erg923]

It is not make believe. We just had our reunion last Friday night with some 200 alumni and all of us are licensed with good jobs. Some are working at UTSW, UT- Dallas Brain Health, Carswell Federal Women's Prison, Ohio State Medical School, Larned State Hospital, State Hospital in Pineville, LA, Medical Center in Baton Rouge, Medical School in Indiana, Successful Private Practice, and many other top jobs.

The whole Class Action lawsuit was engineered by two disgruntled students and Frontline took the bait as did a Dallas Attorney. Argosy being one of the most successful professional schools was used as the lead in to gain viewers but actually the proprietary certificate programs were exploiting students and they were not able to find jobs with Medical billing or other Nursing assistant jobs. This was not true at Argosy as we did internships, graduated, became licensed Psychologist, acquired professional jobs, and are successful. This includes the 30 students in the lawsuit as 25 of those students are successful licensed psychologist.

The make believe comment was referring to your "salary"

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Thanks for the story, but I dont care. The make believe comment was referring to your "salary"

After I finished my postdoctoral, I accepted a position in a private practice group with a number of contracts enabling my income in the range of 150-200 thousand. I have been doing this for two months and I am making $15,000 per month this past month as first month was orientation and training. There may be some good and bad months but I have the potential to make over $200 thousand per year. I just paid off my second car with my last check.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Good on ya. Eventually I'll give in to PP and collect the dollars.

 

[erg923]

After I finished my postdoctoral, I accepted a position in a private practice group with a number of contracts enabling my income in the range of 150-200 thousand. I have been doing this for two months and I am making $15,000 per month this past month as first month was orientation and training. There may be some good and bad months but I have the potential to make over $200 thousand per year. I just paid off my second car with my last check.

So you don't make a salary, correct?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Good on ya. Eventually I'll give in to PP and collect the dollars.

I'm starting to get the itch to do some "on the side" work (particularly given the small number of actual neuropsychologists in my surrounding area), but I don't know that I'll ever have it in me to do PP full-time. My thinking at the moment is that I'd instead probably just keep my current (or a similar) salaried position and then go into another industry entirely.

But we'll see what happens.

Getting back to the OP's topic, it'll be interesting to see how this ends up shaking out come 2017, and if the changes will actually have any significant effects on the training landscape.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

So you don't make a salary, correct?

When you are in PP you earn you income based on services provided, third party payments, Medicare, Medicaid, etc...

My income varies month to month and I am my own boss. I can set my hours and have flexibility. I typically work a schedule of 1-9 pm and have mornings available for extra as needed.

 

[MCParent]

200 alumni and all of us are licensed

 

[erg923]

When you are in PP you earn you income based on services provided, third party payments, Medicare, Medicaid, etc... .

Yes, I am well aware.

I was referring to this post.

I hold HSP credentials and work and make a salary in the $150-$200 thousand range.

You do not make this as a salary. This statement is thus false, and it was deceitful. And I belive it was purposefully so.

 

[Cigolon]

When you are in PP you earn you income based on services provided, third party payments, Medicare, Medicaid, etc...

My income varies month to month and I am my own boss. I can set my hours and have flexibility. I typically work a schedule of 1-9 pm and have mornings available for extra as needed.

I only had a chance to do billing with Caid/Care for about 3 years. I did plenty of testing while I was with it. I'd be curious how those payrates stack out to 15k a month. Been a while now since I looked at bill rates, but isn't it something like ~100 for the intake, 6 hours testing max billable at ~70 a pop, and then a feedback for ~90. The number of times that they paid me the bill rate within a month was... maybe once. Never had them declined (joy of being contracted with the state for the testing), but they didn't turn it around fast. I assume you arent getting the full cut. 60/40 maybe, at best? Either that or you are paying overhead. I'm interested in your business model. If it is with medicaid, I'd be dying to know how you work that because those numbers don't make sense to me... from one guy who worked in medicaid PP to another.

 

[erg923]

I only had a chance to do billing with Caid/Care for about 3 years. I did plenty of testing while I was with it. I'd be curious how those payrates stack out to 15k a month. Been a while now since I looked at bill rates, but isn't it something like ~100 for the intake, 6 hours testing max billable at ~70 a pop, and then a feedback for ~90. The number of times that they paid me the bill rate within a month was... maybe once. Never had them declined (joy of being contracted with the state for the testing), but they didn't turn it around fast. I assume you arent getting the full cut. 60/40 maybe, at best? Either that or you are paying overhead. I'm interested in your business model. If it is with medicaid, I'd be dying to know how you work that because those numbers don't make sense to me... from one guy who worked in medicaid PP to another.

I have doubts that the person is even a psychologist at all. More likely "Argosy recruiter." But he is free to throw around his bling bling if he so chooses.

 

[Cigolon]

I have doubts that the person is even a psychologist at all. More likely "Argosy recruiter." But he is free to throw around his bling bling if he so chooses.

I don't know about that, but I can tell you he hasn't billed a lot of medicaid testing. If you have, it doesn't take you 1 testing case to get an idea (slow to pay, medium payrates). I had several that were approved but took a few months to end up actually paying out for services billed on the EOB. I made a decent living doing testing with my masters before I went back to school (especially considering I was working under someone and had to pay the piper so to speak for supervision, space, being an associate), but I wasn't buying cars with my first month's paycheck. lol. If he really is, I'll send him my C.V. and maybe we can talk jobs.

 

[smalltownpsych]

150k is quite feasible, although difficult, in my current setting. You have to keep no-shows down to below 20% and work during lunch and have some extra work such as on-call. 200k might be possible, but I think it would kill me.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It is not make believe. We just had our reunion last Friday night with some 200 alumni and all of us are licensed with good jobs. Some are working at UTSW, UT- Dallas Brain Health, UT-Arlington, Carswell Federal Women's Prison, Ohio State Medical School, Larned State Hospital, State Hospital in Pineville, LA, Medical Center in Baton Rouge, Medical School in Indiana, Successful Private Practice, and many other top jobs.

The whole Class Action lawsuit was engineered by two disgruntled students and Frontline took the bait as did a Dallas Attorney. Argosy being one of the most successful professional schools was used as the lead in to gain viewers but actually the proprietary certificate programs were exploiting students and they were not able to find jobs with Medical billing or other Nursing assistant jobs. This was not true at Argosy as we did internships, graduated, became licensed Psychologist, acquired professional jobs, and are successful. This includes the 30 students in the lawsuit as 25 of those students are successful licensed psychologist.

Yeah, I'm not sure I believe this. Given that the program probably only had 200-ish grads total, was unaccredited, and came from a stock of programs that have a not great reputation in the field, to say the least, I highly, highly doubt all of them went on to highly competitive, prestiguous employment, especially when said places often explicitly require going to an accredited program and often screen applications on this criterion even when it'a not a requirement.

FWIW, I did look at the OSU, UTSW, and UTA to see if they had employees from Argosy-Dallas. Nope to the first two and the third was ambiguous (two PsyDs work in their UCC--one as an LPA--but there was no mention of educational history). Of course, websites can be slow to update, have incomplete info or bios, etc., but still... huh.

 

[WisNeuro]

What!?! Inaccurate information information being posted!?! I'm shocked!

 

[smalltownpsych]

It is not make believe. We just had our reunion last Friday night with some 200 alumni and all of us are licensed with good jobs. Some are working at UTSW, UT- Dallas Brain Health, UT-Arlington, Carswell Federal Women's Prison, Ohio State Medical School, Larned State Hospital, State Hospital in Pineville, LA, Medical Center in Baton Rouge, Medical School in Indiana, Successful Private Practice, and many other top jobs.

The whole Class Action lawsuit was engineered by two disgruntled students and Frontline took the bait as did a Dallas Attorney. Argosy being one of the most successful professional schools was used as the lead in to gain viewers but actually the proprietary certificate programs were exploiting students and they were not able to find jobs with Medical billing or other Nursing assistant jobs. This was not true at Argosy as we did internships, graduated, became licensed Psychologist, acquired professional jobs, and are successful. This includes the 30 students in the lawsuit as 25 of those students are successful licensed psychologist.

200 alumni from a non-APA-accredited program who have become licensed? If that is correct, which other posters have rightly questioned, then it makes me think Texas needs to tighten up their standards.

 

[MCParent]

Y
FWIW, I did look at the OSU, UTSW, and UTA to see if they had employees from Argosy-Dallas. Nope to the first two and the third was ambiguous (two PsyDs work in their UCC--one as an LPA--but there was no mention of educational history). Of course, websites can be slow to update, have incomplete info or bios, etc., but still... huh.

Did you check the list of administrative assistants?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

FWIW, I did look at the OSU, UTSW, and UTA to see if they had employees from Argosy-Dallas. Nope to the first two and the third was ambiguous (two PsyDs work in their UCC--one as an LPA--but there was no mention of educational history). Of course, websites can be slow to update, have incomplete info or bios, etc., but still... huh.

I highly doubt a psychologist could be credentialed any any of those places w/o APA-acred. for the program (or internship).

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I could list all their names but I will respect their privacy. If you go to LinkedIn and type search Texas School of Professional Psychology at Argosy University, Dallas many of the names will pop up including me and the alumni at Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center. Some are still doing postdoctoral and are LPA which many of us obtained to take the EPPP early.

Now is there going to be a lynch mob waiting for me when I get home tonight?[emoji26]

The school was called the American School of Prodessional Psycholigy for three years.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I could list all their names but I will respect their privacy. If you go to LinkedIn and type search Texas School of Professional Psychology many of the names will pop up including me!!

Now is there going to be a lynch mob waiting for me when I get home tonight?

The school was called the American School of Prodessional Psycholigy for three years.

Argosy has always been called the American School of Professional Psychology or "[state] School of Professional Psychology" In fact, when I ran those searches, I searched specifically for PsyDs in order to get a broader number of results.

 

[Rivi]

It is not make believe. We just had our reunion last Friday night with some 200 alumni and all of us are licensed with good jobs. Some are working at UTSW, UT- Dallas Brain Health, UT-Arlington, Carswell Federal Women's Prison, Ohio State Medical School, Larned State Hospital, State Hospital in Pineville, LA, Medical Center in Baton Rouge, Medical School in Indiana, Successful Private Practice, and many other top jobs.

The whole Class Action lawsuit was engineered by two disgruntled students and Frontline took the bait as did a Dallas Attorney. Argosy being one of the most successful professional schools was used as the lead in to gain viewers but actually the proprietary certificate programs were exploiting students and they were not able to find jobs with Medical billing or other Nursing assistant jobs. This was not true at Argosy as we did internships, graduated, became licensed Psychologist, acquired professional jobs, and are successful. This includes the 30 students in the lawsuit as 25 of those students are successful licensed psychologist.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Argosy has always been called the American School of Professional Psychology or "[state] School of Professional Psychology" In fact, when I ran those searches, I searched specifically for PsyDs in order to get a broader number of results.

If you look at the history it was called "The Illinois School of Professional Psychology in 1970. It was changed to The American School of Professional Psychology in 2001.

Most of the PsyD from ISPP where very successful and accepted but FSPS seemed to grow in the early 2000's and with the new schools negative attitudes developed.

I know many from the ISPP who are psychology Board Chairs and also in the VA and Major Medical Centers who are highly respected. Most of them were opposed to the name changes and preferred ISPP.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I could list all their names but I will respect their privacy. If you go to LinkedIn….etc

I think what people took exception to was the broad strokes w/ with you tend to paint a picture, at least that was my reaction to what you posted. Can a person find a way to be successful….probably, but what is the likelihood that they can do that coming from a non-APA Acred. program? The modal outcome is not $150k-$200k/yr. Heck…that is in the top 10% or earning across experience (let alone ECP).

 

[WisNeuro]

….probably, but what is the likelihood that they can do that coming from a non-APA Acred. program? The modal outcome is not $150k-$200k/yr. Heck…that is in the top 10% or earning across experience (let alone ECP).

We have some of this data. What is available suggests that there is a significant difference in salaries by degree type.

 

[Chalupacabra]

Did you check the list of administrative assistants?

I had an adjunct community college professor who was an Argosy grad - very intelligent person and a good teacher, but after I completed the class and transferred schools we became friends and they made it clear being an Arogsy grad did not exactly lead to people knocking down their door. The only jobs they could find were direct service work that people could qualify for with an Associate's Degree or BA/BS. They finally appeared to realize their Argosy degree wasn't going to open any doors and they're currently completing an intensive nursing program.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I've known some incredibly accomplished, talented, and bright Argosy/Alliant graduates and faculty. I really do respect them and hope that they get the careers and recognition they deserve. However, that doesn't mean that we can or should ignore the fact that the overall outcome data for these programs is markedly poor or that many of them engage in questionable practices (e.g., huge class sizes, questionable recruit tactics, etc).

 

[BuckeyeLove]

The only jobs they could find were direct service work that people could qualify for with an Associate's Degree or BA/BS

We're they just not licensed? Or couldn't get licensed?

 

[Chalupacabra]

We're they just not licensed? Or couldn't get licensed?

Couldn't get licensed - I believe they had one of their non-license eligible Master's degrees.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I do know that Argosy is in the process of shutting down in Dallas. I worked a conference that was hosted in Dallas last year and one of the student workers attended the program as a 3rd year. She had told me about their closure that would happen this year.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I've known some incredibly accomplished, talented, and bright Argosy/Alliant graduates and faculty. I really do respect them and hope that they get the careers and recognition they deserve. However, that doesn't mean that we can or should ignore the fact that the overall outcome data for these programs is markedly poor or that many of them engage in questionable practices (e.g., huge class sizes, questionable recruit tactics, etc).

You are aware that the Argosy - Dallas Program was reviewed by ASBPP National Registry and met the requirements for the National Registry. This happened in 2010-11 and the next step was to apply for APA accreditation. Argosy-Dallas PsyD was a ASBPP NR program. The NR is considered a equivalent or higher standard than APA accreditation and allows for students to apply for licensure without having course -transcript review. Additionally those of us who completed APA Internships and about 50% obtained APA accredited internships prior to the lawsuit, meant that my internship is acceptable by all State licensing boards. Therefore, I met all standards and requirements for ASBPP-NR HSP.

As in any doctoral program, some students did not finish and completed the MACL and obtained LPA licensure. However, judging from the reunion on Friday, most of the students I knew graduated and are successful licensed psychologist in many States, not just Texas. Texas psychologist licensure is one of the more difficult states to obtain licensure and their Oral exams are noted as a process where some candidates do not pass and are denied licensure until they retake their Oral exam six months later.

The documentary in 2009 only focused on a small group of students, several who either quit the program or did not advance for whatever reason without giving equal opportunity to the students who were doing well in the program, similar to myself. Additionally, many of those students continued on and graduated despite being in a class action lawsuit against the program.

To only be fair, it might be necessary to have a follow up program to see how those students and other students at Argosy - Dallas turned out. The lawsuit had no bearing on the four PsyD programs Teaching out and eventual closing, but rather to maintain the ten current APA accredited Argosy programs and Argosy-Dallas and the other three closing programs as MACP programs where students may finish up their doctorate at one of the ten APA accredited programs.

Regarding the EPPP pass rate, most of Argosy-Dallas students took it before finishing our doctorate. Despite what the EPPP data indicated in 2012, I know a number who passed the EPPP. The indication of 0 out of 11 passing may only be for students taking the EPPP after completing the doctorate degree or only for first time administration of EPPP. Some of us passed it in the second or third attempt.

http://www.asppb.net/?page=scoresbydrprogram

 

[WisNeuro]

Umm, the numbers don't support that "50% obtained an accredited" internship idea. From 2011-2014, 2/67 or 2.9% of students got that from Argosy-Dallas. That seems quite a bit different than 50% to me.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Umm, the numbers don't support that "50% obtained an accredited" internship idea. From 2011-2014, 2/67 or 2.9% of students got that from Argosy-Dallas. That seems quite a bit different than 50% to me.

The first cohort to go on internship was in 2007 and this was 3 students and all 3 went to APA sites. The second cohort went on internship in 2008 and there were 8 and I believe 4 were in APA sites. In 2009-2010 when the lawsuit was filed was when the numbers of APA site match were reduced and the number of students applied.

Three students did APA accredited Federal Prison Internships. Three student went to the Wichita Consortium. One went the Salesmanship Club, three went to Houston ISD, two to Dallas ISD, three to Pineville LA Hospital, two to Baton Rouge Consortium, two to SARHC, and two at UTSW.

Up until the time of the lawsuit we had good success of gaining APA accredited sites. They were ready to apply for the APA site visit in 2010 but were prevented from moving this direction by the corporate office in Pittsburg.

 

[WisNeuro]

Once again, the numbers you are quoting do not match up with what APPIC lists as outcome data for Argosy Dallas. This reads like a bad recruiting brochure.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

From 2010-2014 after the lawsuit and Lifeline program is when the numbers went down. I did my internship in 2012 and it is an APA accredited internship but the APPIC data for that year indicated 0 APA site when actually Two matched with APA sites that year.

 

[psych844]

From 2010-2014 after the lawsuit and Lifeline program is when the number went down. I did my internship in 2012 and it is an APA accredited internship but the APPIC data for that year indicated 0 APA site when actually Two matched with APA sites that year.

You are living proof that Argosy Dallas is a joke.

 

[WisNeuro]

You are living proof that Argosy Dallas is a joke.

I'm all for denigrating programs that make our profession look bad, but we need to keep it civil in interpersonal interactions. Feel free to call out discrepancies, but the name calling makes us all look bad.

 

[psych844]

I'm all for denigrating programs that make our profession look bad, but we need to keep it civil in interpersonal interactions. Feel free to call out discrepancies, but the name calling makes us all look bad.

Meh. Sometimes people need to be called out. The program is a joke, everyone knows that, but at the end of the day he has to take personal responsibility for the statements that he makes on here. (most of his statements are inaccurate).

 

[WisNeuro]

Meh. Sometimes people need to be called out. The program is a joke, everyone knows that, but at the end of the day he has to take personal responsibility for the statements that he makes on here. (most of his statements are inaccurate).

True, but there are better ways to handle it. Just think of it as good practice in a professional setting 🙂 We all come across many people we think are idiots in our clinical lives (e.g., Neurologists diagnosing CTE after a single concussion with 0 LOC). We have to deal with it constantly while maintaining relationships, just let the data speak for itself.

 

[erg923]

So you're claiming that the reported data is incorrect and that your far-fetched anecdotes are more credible?

This.

This poster HAS to be an administrator or recruiter rather than a psychologist. They proclaim to know, and subsequently cite, WAY more information off hand (without reference to documents or actual data sets) than anyone would ever really know about their fellow students or their graduate program.

And by the way, what exactly does this say about your program?

The indication of 0 out of 11 passing may only be for students taking the EPPP after completing the doctorate degree or only for first time administration of EPPP. Some of us passed it in the second or third attempt./QUOTE]

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I was a student at Argosy Dallas and graduated from the Texas School of Professional Psychology so how could I be an Administrator? Almost all of the faculty completed APA accredited programs and Internships except for several off the older faculty.

The program is in Teach Out mode so it will be no more. However, the other programs are thriving such as MA and EdD Counseling, MA in forensic psychology and MA in Industrial Psychology and some of these students apply to the 10 APA accredited PsyD Argosy programs to complete the PsyD.

I gather no one has complaints about the APA accredited PsyD Argosy Programs? [emoji12]

 

[erg923]

I was a student at Argosy Dallas and graduated from the Texas School of Professional Psychology so how could I be an Administrator? [emoji12]

Because I don't believe the first part of the sentence.

 

[psych844]

Because I don't believe the first part of the sentence.

Maybe both statements are true. He finished, was unable to find a Psych job, now he makes the big bucks tricking others into making the mistake he made. That is certainty one way to make some money back.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

However, the other programs are thriving such as MA and EdD Counseling, MA in forensic psychology and MA in Industrial Psychology...

The programs may be thriving bc they are flush w. student loan $'s…but how about the students?