As in organic chemistry - impossible, or are most people just dumb?

[butiwuvu]

I'm hearing lots of people fussing about how hard organic chemistry is, and how hard it is to get an A. But then, most of these people have GPAs in the mid-threes or less, so they're clearly getting Bs or worse in other classes too (including some easy classes).

Is organic chemistry really the nightmare class everyone makes it out to be, or is it just that many organic chemistry students are dreamer premeds who don't have the academic muscle to cope?

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[EpiPEN]

I B T B

 

[cpa2md]

I'm hearing lots of people fussing about how hard organic chemistry is, and how hard it is to get an A. But then, most of these people have GPAs in the mid-threes or less, so they're clearly getting Bs or worse in other classes too (including some easy classes).

Is organic chemistry really the nightmare class everyone makes it out to be, or is it just that many organic chemistry students are dreamer premeds who don't have the academic muscle to cope?

Organic chemistry is one of those things that you either get it or you don't. I don't. O Chem II is the only C I ever got, and that was after I dropped it once.

It is definitely a weed-out course, but it also takes a visual perception that some people just don't get (like me!).

 

[EpiPEN]

Some people are memorizers and some people are problem solvers. I'm guessing that's where the difficulty part comes in. I was shafted in biochem becuase I hate hardcore memorizing. But did well in Ochem becuase there was some figuring and logic to do.

 

[DoctorDreamer]

OP, I don't know the answer to your question. I thought OChem was interesting, intuitive, and quite frankly pretty easy. BUT, I tend to feel that way about most classes.

I have friends who study way harder than me and can barely pull C's.

I have other "friends" who are pulling D's and C's, but they could be pulling A's if they just sucked it up and realized school (particularly premed) takes work and life is not one big frat party.

I think we're all just have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[russellfx]

I'm hearing lots of people fussing about how hard organic chemistry is, and how hard it is to get an A. But then, most of these people have GPAs in the mid-threes or less, so they're clearly getting Bs or worse in other classes too (including some easy classes).

Is organic chemistry really the nightmare class everyone makes it out to be, or is it just that many organic chemistry students are dreamer premeds who don't have the academic muscle to cope?

organic chem sucks.. its boring and its a lot of material to know. it is a nightmare class i'd say.. unless you love chemistry and are very good at nitpicking details out of a chapter of boring usless information.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Eh, o-chem involves baby logic. Learn some rules and then simply apply them. I don't think it takes some kind of uber visualization ability that only .00001% of the population has. I find that ochem is almost completely dependent on your effort, which is why I LOVED the series.

To contrast, Ochem and Calc I and II are both heavy weed-outs here and I just don't have the logical abilities to do mathematics like that. I thought ochem was a breeze but calc made me **** bricks.

 

[HumidBeing]

A's aren't impossible. The class requires a different type of thinking than most classes that students have taken previously. Some people are good at that, but it's difficult for many to adapt. There are lots of people who really enjoy ochem and do well.

If you read through the threads, you can see that there are many who disliked or struggled through chemistry, but found ochem to be more enjoyable and did better there.

People with GPA's in the mid-threes aren't doing poorly. They're obviously getting A's in many of their classes.

 

[EpiPEN]

Eh, o-chem involves baby logic. Learn some rules and then simply apply them. I don't think it takes some kind of uber visualization ability that only .00001% of the population has. I find that ochem is almost completely dependent on your effort, which is why I LOVED the series.

To contrast, Ochem and Calc I and II are both heavy weed-outs here and I just don't have the logical abilities to do mathematics like that. I thought ochem was a breeze but calc made me **** bricks.

limit(calc->II) butt_hole_size = Brick


Had to put it into language I can understand

 

[tiedyeddog]

limit(calc->II) butt_hole_size = Brick


Had to put it into language I can understand

Haha, I think this comment made my day.

Some people are memorizers and some people are problem solvers. I'm guessing that's where the difficulty part comes in. I was shafted in biochem becuase I hate hardcore memorizing. But did well in Ochem becuase there was some figuring and logic to do.

I agree with what you're trying to say here. It's about a comfortable middle ground between memorization/logic. While bio chem is just tons of lame memorization, ochem has some but it really isn't that hard, especially if you apply the rules ad logical use them. I think most people don't do enough problems, myself, but that's dependent on the individual. Some people don't need to, but those who are doing poorly should buckle down and just do tons more problems until they understand the stuff.

Oh, and I love memorization. HATE applied logic stuff, like physics. I would have been the world's worst engineer.

 

[TheLegendofEdel]

Organic can be hard if you don't keep on top of your material. I'm not one who likes to study at all, so my grades are not the best for a pre-med student (not by far), yet if you buckle down and keep on top of the material, you can easily get an A in organic. It all depends on if you put the work into it.

 

[RickAstley]

Getting an A is easy if you put in the work. That doesn't mean sitting in the library flipping through your notes- these are the dreamer pre-meds you speak of. It means actively rewriting notes and making study guides while reading the book and lecture notes, memorizing a big ass stack of flashcards, doing hundreds of practice problems and reviewing the logic behind your answers whether right or wrong. And then repeating the process all over again multiple times before each exam. I must have gone through at least a 1,000 page stack of computer paper each semester of orgo just writing out mechanisms and multi-step synthesis flowcharts over, and over, and over. When people break down in tears next to you during the final exam you'll be glad you did the work.😀

 

[ofoshoukno]

I'm hearing lots of people fussing about how hard organic chemistry is, and how hard it is to get an A. But then, most of these people have GPAs in the mid-threes or less, so they're clearly getting Bs or worse in other classes too (including some easy classes).

Is organic chemistry really the nightmare class everyone makes it out to be, or is it just that many organic chemistry students are dreamer premeds who don't have the academic muscle to cope?

Organic chem is one of the first challenges of many that you will face, should you pursue a career in medicine.

 

[tdsbird2]

I got a B in lecture and a C in lab the first semester and then got two As...it is possible, it just depends how much you want to put into it...and it wasnt that the second semester teacher was easier. We took the national o chem final and I was in the 95 percentile. Just block SDN, and go study.

 

[Flaxmoore]

OChem I was okay at my school- I pulled a B of some form (been a long time). OChem II was a nightmare- teacher who couldn't teach.

 

[surfstarj]

Some people are memorizers and some people are problem solvers. I'm guessing that's where the difficulty part comes in. I was shafted in biochem becuase I hate hardcore memorizing. But did well in Ochem becuase there was some figuring and logic to do.

Yeah, i think the trouble for a lot of students is that there isn't a whole lot of memorizing to do. You have to learn a system, rules, etc and APPLY them to whatever the prof throws at you.

Random thought: organic success correlated to VR score? ability to reason being more important than memorization? Just thinking out loud...

 

[GoldShadow]

Organic chem... the material isn't really "hard", per se (at least not in my experience). But there are a lot of things to learn, and it is very time consuming. I think the people who rely purely on memorization for orgo find it to be nightmarish; the people that try to use logic will have an easier time.

I spent a lot of time going through chapters, problems, examples, mechanisms, and reactions, but it paid off. I got an A in Orgo I last semester and I'm going to get an A in Orgo II this semester.

I've definitely found (at least in my class/experience) that there's a direct correlation between the amount of time put into studying orgo and exam grades; ie, if you take the time to learn the stuff, you will do well. I put in a good deal of time and I'm doing well. The people who start looking at the material for the first time just 2 or 3 days before a test are the ones getting Fs and Ds. The ones who study more, but not earlier or more comprehensively, are getting Bs and Cs.

 

[TheRealMD]

It depends on the professor and the person themselves, but I can honestly say that Ochem was the easiest science course I have ever taken. That and physics. But I find some bio to be truly horrendous.

To each their own.

 

[nimbusadjust120]

I'm hearing lots of people fussing about how hard organic chemistry is, and how hard it is to get an A. But then, most of these people have GPAs in the mid-threes or less, so they're clearly getting Bs or worse in other classes too (including some easy classes).

Is organic chemistry really the nightmare class everyone makes it out to be, or is it just that many organic chemistry students are dreamer premeds who don't have the academic muscle to cope?

From what i have believed, most of the people who wanted to become doctors are money faced, stethoscope fetish and wanted to have "dr" attached to their initials. Most of them refused to admit themselves. Only those who really have a true desire to accept challenges, wanted to continue learning/studying forever, have a medical condition or have been inspired by medicine will do well during their pre-med days because if they have the interest in something, they will put in every effort to achieve their goals.

No one is stupid. They didn't do well because they are lazy, and their interest was only 5 minutes hot.

 

[AUD]

From my experience, and the way I'm tested on it, its all about recognizing patterns as well as applying them. I do both very well, and so I find that I enjoy O-chem much more than I enjoyed G-chem. I also feel like it is a class where you have to understand WHY reactions happen the way they do. If you understand that, then you barely have to memorize the mechanisms per say, because you already know whats going to happen. Even though it might require a little more work when you are learning it, it means a lot less work and higher grades when studying for the tests. It actually doesn't require much work at all to learn like that, because at the level O-chem is taught, its all about electronegativity, identifying the nucleo/electrophiles, and sterics.

 

[Womialas]

It's not impossible, there's just a cost-reward aspect that I took into account. To get an A in that class, you're going to need to put in 2 to 3 times the amount of work that you do for other classes. I settled for my C and got straight As in all my other classes. Sure, it brings the GPA down, but saves you some of your sanity.

 

[UD912]

Although it has more or less already been said, OChem can be the hardest class you ever take or the easiest. Or even in between. It all depends on how naturally you grasp the concepts. I know plenty of people that study every day for the class and still barely pull C's. Still others barely study at all and get A's. I'd say feel the class out for yourself; if the stuff comes fairly easy to you from the start, it'll probably stay that way. I have not studied for more than 3 hours for ANY exam in OChem (I'm currently in my second semester) and I've never gotten lower than an A.

Like others said though, this intuitiveness for the subject is completely independent of just about anything else. Sure, I can pull A's without a sweat in OChem, but I don't even know if I'm going to get in the B range for physics2 this semester. All in all, don't let what other people tell you scare you, even if you don't get it right away you can put in the work and get the A if you really want it.

 

[scrubsaresexy]

As someone who is about to walk out the door to take (aka: fail) the ACS exam, orgo is hard. You really have to put the time in and understand it from the first day, or you'll be pretty screwed.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

i think most people aren't dumb, they just don't study the right way. I thought orgo was pretty darn easy, but a lot of people find it to be a wall. That's because they study for this class like it's biology of physio. Orgo isn't about memorization, but for premeds, not memorizing every little rxn is just a hard concept to grasp.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

So if you have less than a mid three....you are dumb???Im confused....I bet Vihsadas could have something to say about that.

 

[WinterLights]

I like organic chemistry. I firmly believe that there is no class that I cannot get in A in if I actually put forth the time and effort. The people who usually find o-chem difficult are the ones that say that they "just don't understand" (i.e. they do not have the killer instinct) or they just don't like studying.

 

[Cardinals]

As has already been pointed out, a lot will depend on your teacher, how hard you work at it, your particular strengths, etc. For me, I'd say it was challenging but not impossible. It was harder than Gen Bio, but easier than Gen Chem or Physics. I will second the idea that the ACS test sucks. That thing was twice as hard as my class.

 

[DoctorRx1986]

Remember, most of organic chemistry is based on electronic charge and repulsion. A methoxide ion, which is negatively charged, for instance, will be attracted to the positively charged carbon of a carbonyl in a nucleophilic addition reaction. The pi electrons of an alkene, which are negatively charged once again, will have an electrostatic attraction for the positive dipole moment formed in molecular bromine, Br and react as a result. Ultimately, the regioselectivity of that reaction will occur and thus form one constitutional isomer or another, but that is another topic. The point is....like charges repel and opposites attract. Once you begin to understand this most basic of a concept in organic chemistry, mechanisms and reactions themselves will fall into place. Organic chemistry will fall into place much more easily. You will not see formic acid, HCOOH, which by the way is the chemical ants secrete to cause you a stinging sensation as they bite, react with hydrochloric acid, HCl. What you will see is a base such as sodium hydroxide reacting with the acid above. Why? Because of differences in charge...the proton of the carboxyl group is partially positive because of differences in electronegativity whereas the hydroxide ion of the base is negative. Therefore, they attract and react. You will form water and a salt as a byproduct. If only people could see such things instead of memorizing, organic chemistry would be much easier.

 

[EpiPEN]

A class is only as hard as the tests the professor gives

 

[ryno]

I think Ochem really exposes ones study skills. I'm about to get an A in the class, and I'll have to say that, for me, staying on top of the material as its being covered in class was crucial. It takes time, and understanding. I think Ochem is pretty straight forward, but like TheRealMD, I have my weaknesses in Bio.

 

[mathlete]

I remember being so scared of Ochem when I first enrolled in it. But I ended up doing well in the two courses, not because I was some kind of genius and others who say horrible things about it are dumb. But it was because I found it so interesting, it required understanding and not much memorization like my bio classes and Gchem, and it was a lot more concise with less things from everywhere thrown in there than Gchem. I really think you have to develop an interest in it to excel in Ochem. If you don't like it, get help from TA's and tutors... you'll learn to appreciate it more than other courses, I promise you that.

The key thing is "don't be scared, don't give in to all the exagerrated hype that surrounds ooooooochem." seriously, I later realized that the fear of it was my biggest burden, much like with the MCAT. Things will become interesting, not easy, and that's a great motivation to understand reactions. I guess the only thing that I hated about Ochem in the end was "reverse synthesis"... it even sounds hard, but with enough practice you'll become a reverse synthesizer 😉

 

[DoctorRx1986]

As for the above comment the poster above wrote about retrosynthetic analysis, I have to say I found it a little difficult at first. First semester organic didn't really dive into it too much, but by second semester, you either had to learn it or drown. By second semester, it became very logical to me and not difficult at all except in some circumstances. Overall, I'd say retrosynthesis is a fantastic way of sharpening intellectual ability. What other course requires that you think backwards? Not many. I believe organic chemistry should be a requirement for ALL college students in order to make them more academically and intellectually adept and stop with the bs drinking, getting wasted, and slacking off during the college years.

 

[bigDee]

Getting an A is easy if you put in the work. That doesn't mean sitting in the library flipping through your notes- these are the dreamer pre-meds you speak of. It means actively rewriting notes and making study guides while reading the book and lecture notes, memorizing a big ass stack of flashcards, doing hundreds of practice problems and reviewing the logic behind your answers whether right or wrong. And then repeating the process all over again multiple times before each exam. I must have gone through at least a 1,000 page stack of computer paper each semester of orgo just writing out mechanisms and multi-step synthesis flowcharts over, and over, and over. When people break down in tears next to you during the final exam you'll be glad you did the work.😀

There's no better way to put it than to practice practice. I too do a decent amount of problems and synthesis for each test. I make flashcards like they're going out of style. I didn't do this much for the beginning of ochem 1 cause there wasn't any synthesis but for ochem 2 where the tests are based on memorizing reactions and such, flashcards are the way to go.

Me and my friends are one of the only ones with an A because we have so many babies in our class. We just had a teacher evaluation in class a few days ago. I wasn't there but I heard everyone complained that the professor was the worst and he made the quizes and tests too hard. I've never seen a bigger bunch of whiners in my life. These tests are pretty fair so they're just trying to get the professor in trouble so he may give a bigger curve or something.

 

[pakbabydoll]

I am very good at memorizing so I am hoping that will help me out....

 

[DoctorRx1986]

f

I am very good at memorizing so I am hoping that will help me out....

Memorization is not exactly the way to go in organic chemistry. Sure, you will have to commit to memory certain things such as reagents used, catalysts, reaction conditions, solvents, etc... for your reactions. However, if you attempt to memorize EVERY reaction pathway without truly understanding it, listen to me closely and listen again...YOU WILL FAIL. 👎 The correct approach to learning organic chemistry is understanding the "why" and "how" of eaction reaction and mechanism. Ask yourself as you are introduced to a nucleophilic addition reaction, "Why does this primary amine react with an aldehyde or ketone to form an imine?" "How does this occur and why does this occur?" "Why won't 2-butanone react with pentanal?" As you do this, you will find it much easier to understand and apply all the reactions that are thrown at you...memorization will simply cause you trip ups and promote a superficial understanding of the subject matter. Big concept here for you to know if you haven't already taken organic chemistry: Opposite charges attract and like charges repel...nucleophiles, which are negatively charged or neutral and usually contain excess electrons, are attracted to electrophiles, which are positively charged. Once you understand that and see it over and over again, you will find organic chemistry is a great, yet demanding course, that is composed of relatively simple concepts. With that concept above, you will later be able to understand why 2-butanone won't react with pentanal.

 

[GreenShirt]

It will largely depend on how the tests at your school are written and graded. At my UG there's was very strict curve, so only about the top 20% or less of the class received an A. Out of a class of 200 competitive pre-meds only 40 would walk away with an A and the other 160 of us got something else. I didn't find doing basic problems too difficult, but had trouble with the harder test questions (average scores could be in the 50s or 60s on these exams).

So while, Orgo requires hrs of practice problems and memorization, teachers have way of making it harder than it is.

 

[HappyG0Lucky]

O-chem was the only class I had to consistently study almost everyday to get an A. More specifically, O-chem 2 was hardest FOR ME. It's very individual and also varies by your professor. Eventually, everybody is going to hit upon a subject they have to work harder in. For a lot of people it's o-chem, but for others it's biochem, or calc, or maybe speech class 😛 As long as you study everyday and take advantage of your resources like office hours, TA's, study sessions etc, it is definitely possible to get an A. And to put it into perspective...O-chem is nothing compared to the amount of material required for most med school classes so it's good practice if nothing else.

 

[GoldShadow]

f


Memorization is not exactly the way to go in organic chemistry. Sure, you will have to commit to memory certain things such as reagents used, catalysts, reaction conditions, solvents, etc... for your reactions. However, if you attempt to memorize EVERY reaction pathway without truly understanding it, listen to me closely and listen again...YOU WILL FAIL. 👎 The correct approach to learning organic chemistry is understanding the "why" and "how" of eaction reaction and mechanism. Ask yourself as you are introduced to a nucleophilic addition reaction, "Why does this primary amine react with an aldehyde or ketone to form an imine?" "How does this occur and why does this occur?" "Why won't 2-butanone react with pentanal?" As you do this, you will find it much easier to understand and apply all the reactions that are thrown at you...memorization will simply cause you trip ups and promote a superficial understanding of the subject matter. Big concept here for you to know if you haven't already taken organic chemistry: Opposite charges attract and like charges repel...nucleophiles, which are negatively charged or neutral and usually contain excess electrons, are attracted to electrophiles, which are positively charged. Once you understand that and see it over and over again, you will find organic chemistry is a great, yet demanding course, that is composed of relatively simple concepts. With that concept above, you will later be able to understand why 2-butanone won't react with pentanal.

QFT 👍👍👍

 

[pakbabydoll]

f


Memorization is not exactly the way to go in organic chemistry. Sure, you will have to commit to memory certain things such as reagents used, catalysts, reaction conditions, solvents, etc... for your reactions. However, if you attempt to memorize EVERY reaction pathway without truly understanding it, listen to me closely and listen again...YOU WILL FAIL. 👎 The correct approach to learning organic chemistry is understanding the "why" and "how" of eaction reaction and mechanism. Ask yourself as you are introduced to a nucleophilic addition reaction, "Why does this primary amine react with an aldehyde or ketone to form an imine?" "How does this occur and why does this occur?" "Why won't 2-butanone react with pentanal?" As you do this, you will find it much easier to understand and apply all the reactions that are thrown at you...memorization will simply cause you trip ups and promote a superficial understanding of the subject matter. Big concept here for you to know if you haven't already taken organic chemistry: Opposite charges attract and like charges repel...nucleophiles, which are negatively charged or neutral and usually contain excess electrons, are attracted to electrophiles, which are positively charged. Once you understand that and see it over and over again, you will find organic chemistry is a great, yet demanding course, that is composed of relatively simple concepts. With that concept above, you will later be able to understand why 2-butanone won't react with pentanal.

Thanks I don't know why but I got the impression that o-chem is a lot of memorization. I have been seeing a lot of organic chem threads so I am going to get one of those organic chem books for practice.

 

[makushin]

I took the organic sequence in the summer, so for me, yes IT WAS A NIGHTMARE. I was very cocky going into Organic 1, I had this attitude like 'if anyone gets an A it will be me'. They were my first B's in over 60 credits. So there you go, I was a straight A student and it broke me. And these were not B+'s, I barely got a B both semesters.

I found myself trying to memorize reactions. DO NOT DO THIS. I think this was my downfall. Later, when I studied for the DAT, for some reason I started actually seeing the mechanisms, and it became much easier, and I scored in the 94% for O-chem on the DAT. This is the way to do it. DO NOT MEMORIZE.

I do, however, believe that I could have achieved A's if I hadn't taken them in the summer. The summer courses just went so fast that I was in over my head before I knew it. Good luck.

 

[Insulinshock]

As for the above comment the poster above wrote about retrosynthetic analysis, I have to say I found it a little difficult at first. First semester organic didn't really dive into it too much, but by second semester, you either had to learn it or drown. By second semester, it became very logical to me and not difficult at all except in some circumstances. Overall, I'd say retrosynthesis is a fantastic way of sharpening intellectual ability. What other course requires that you think backwards? Not many. I believe organic chemistry should be a requirement for ALL college students in order to make them more academically and intellectually adept and stop with the bs drinking, getting wasted, and slacking off during the college years.

I do plenty of all three of those, and I still carry a 3.84. I feel discriminated against. 😀

 

[DoctorRx1986]

I do plenty of all three of those, and I still carry a 3.84. I feel discriminated against. 😀

Lol, well, at least you have a great gpa, so it's not as bad as those who do the above and have 2.5's. 👍

 

[Tutmos]

Make sure you take other classes during those semesters that won't be so time consuming. I made sure to take more "fluff" courses while taking Ochem so I could devote a larger than normal amount of time to it. It paid off with A's in all three. I think that's a lot of why med schools focus on Ochem grades, because they know it takes a good deal of effort and the people that aren't willing to work for it won't "luck" out and get a good grade, unless it's a joke of a school.

 

[jjmack]

I really liked orgo I, but felt organic II was just too much of the same...let's learn about another functional group. It was my worst grade in college.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

As in Organic are impossible and most ppl are just dumb.

 

[Nonnahs]

Eh, o-chem involves baby logic. Learn some rules and then simply apply them. I don't think it takes some kind of uber visualization ability that only .00001% of the population has. I find that ochem is almost completely dependent on your effort, which is why I LOVED the series.

To contrast, Ochem and Calc I and II are both heavy weed-outs here and I just don't have the logical abilities to do mathematics like that. I thought ochem was a breeze but calc made me **** bricks.

I'm just the opposite. Calc I and II just kind of clicked for me, whereas OChem was insufferable. To me, it was just a bunch of letters that "did stuff." Granted, I figured it out to an extent. It just took a LOT more work than Calc did.

I FINALLY got OChem right before the last exam. Everything fell into place, there was this beautiful light, shining down on me from heaven, and cheerful birds sang their merry song as they flew around my head. Okay, so the moment was dramatized for effect... BUT my Aha! moment was quite astounding.

Random thought: organic success correlated to VR score? ability to reason being more important than memorization? Just thinking out loud...

I'd say no, not in my case. VR was pretty easy for me and OChem kicked my butt like my momma did the first time I said the F word in front of her.