Asians, the new Jews in admissions at top schools?

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serenade said:
AAMC has matriculates by ethnicity over 4 years for all ethnicities. That will give you the same data as the MSAR.
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With respect to each medical school? Dude. Send me a link. 😎
 
La Presse said:
Citation please. Otherwise, this is false.
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Misworded that. I got that figure from a post that NickNaylor or someone had posted a year ago about the demographics at UTSW, which essentially were around 40% Asian, 40% White, and 20% Other.
 
At my school it's about 50% white, 30% oriental, 15% South Asian, and 5% aboriginal/black/unidentifiable like Taboo from BEP.
 
I agree with the OP. It seems that asians are the only group that it is still acceptable for the liberal bastions to discriminate against on the basis of race.
 
Well, we all know Asians are a bunch of communist Nazi super Jews that want to take our jobs.
 
Wow, some of you guys need to learn to live in a multi-cultural society and stop complaining on everything.
 
I think MCAT should be the only criteria, everything else is subjective. Imagine NFL combines they strictly go by performance and not any other nebulous guidelines. I don't know for fact if there is discrimination against asians or not. College kids in US are probably the most compassionate of all the people and they are not capable of discrimination. Some old people I don't know.
 
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mimelim said:
Oriental refers to things, not people, unless you mean it offensively. Just fyi. I have seen physicians burn bridges with patients for that mistake.
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No, I don't mean it offensively. I assume it's offensive in North America, but where I originally come from (England) it's not offensive. I have never used the term nor any other racial demonym with patients.
 
dr doze said:
I agree with the OP. It seems that asians are the only group that it is still acceptable for the liberal bastions to discriminate against on the basis of race.
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I hate that affirmative action discriminates against people like me, but I really feel sorry for the Laotian, Hmong, Cambodian, etc refugee families who fled war and violence and are now trapped in low SES jobs and lives. But AA still discriminates against them just because they're "Asian." All while giving massive bonuses to upper and upper middle class blacks.

It's a joke. It really is.
 
Hell there are even parts from India and China that have under represented people that immigrated here. I don't get how these "minorities" are chosen. I get AA for undergrad because that doesn't really matter, but AA for professional schools shouldn't be happening. If you're not up to par with other applicants them you should get on their level.

Typed on my phone
 
minwoo123 said:
The article that started it all:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

Articles from the NYTIMES:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-asian-quota-in-the-ivy-league
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/o...rt-for-their-own-good.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

Thrown in for good measure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOe6DDbLGAs


The topic of Asians being the new Jews (when there were quotas on Jews at Ivy League universities in the early 20th century) has recently become quite a hot topic.

What do you guys think? Do you think this also applies to graduate and professional schools as well?

Let's try to have a fierce, but respectable, debate/discussion.

Personally, I think there are quotas for Asians. I mean, you're not gonna see Harvard admit that they have a quota for Asians any time soon. An explicit quota or an imaginary quota result in the same outcome.

For medical school admissions, besides MCAT scores and GPA, perhaps legacy and background have an influence as well. For example, if your parents are famous physicians or if they donated a lot of money to the medical school or something, your chances of getting in are probably higher.

*the sad state of higher education in America*
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I take it you're of Asian descent since you're calling our state of higher education "sad". Asians (Including people from India) are considered over represented minorities for admissions Medical School. The number of Asians applying each year is staggering when compared to all other minority groups (which is partly why averages for Asians is so high). Anecdotally, out of the 20-30 Asians I have known through random classes, all are either Pre-Med or Pre-Dent.

I hate to say it, but broadening our diversity IS important. All over the world, most foreigners aren't even given a chance to study/practice medicine there (China comes to mind). Averages for hispanics and blacks are on the rise so to simply cast these people off as "stealing your spot" is nonsense and quite disparaging. Just because you had an MCAT of 32 while a black person scored a 28, they deserve the spot less then you? No one is owed anything in higher education admissions and it goes far beyond MCAT/GPA. I think the way medical schools view everything is much better than just being a "numbers game".

You're probably not going to want to hear this/like this, but patients do like being seen by people similar to themselves. Just work harder than your cohorts or go DO, unless the prestige of MD matters so much to you 🙄
 
Midifelder10 said:
I think MCAT should be the only criteria, everything else is subjective. Imagine NFL combines they strictly go by performance and not any other nebulous guidelines. I don't know for fact if there is discrimination against asians or not. College kids in US are probably the most compassionate of all the people and they are not capable of discrimination. Some old people I don't know.
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So how do you screen out socially inept people who have no business being within breathing distance of people? Sorry, but chances are we use the Mcat even more than we should, we need to find other measures that select for better and more humane doctors.
 
dr doze said:
I agree with the OP. It seems that asians are the only group that it is still acceptable for the liberal bastions to discriminate against on the basis of race.
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How exactly are you being discriminated against?
 
HughMyron said:
I hate that affirmative action discriminates against people like me, but I really feel sorry for the Laotian, Hmong, Cambodian, etc refugee families who fled war and violence and are now trapped in low SES jobs and lives. But AA still discriminates against them just because they're "Asian." All while giving massive bonuses to upper and upper middle class blacks.

It's a joke. It really is.
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You're not being discriminated against. And Southeastern Asians are helped, they gain in the disadvantaged, being the first to graduate college, etc categories. They likewise like many legal refuges obtain a lot of support from the government upon immigrating here.

But I will agree, we should make AA more a system that helps persons more on class, not on their ethnicity. Though again, we should examine that ethnicity has major negative barriers to African Americans even if they achieve equal status to Whites and Asians.
 
So...

JEWS, THE NEW GENTILES?

Sent from mobile
 
OP here. Interesting responses! I've just been silently observing the thread and am glad to see that there have been some coherent responses. Though I hope many of you are reading the NYTimes articles at least and then commenting.

I don't think me being Asian-American has anything to do with my comment about the "sad state of education in America". I believe that the point of the articles is that in America, higher education is not based on merit (we don't live in a meritocratic society). And...uh...I've already been accepted to my top choice already, so it's not like l'm bitter or anything.....

Of course, the implications of that are, what is merit? Can merit be measured? Do we even want a meritocratic society?

I agree that the standards of admissions into medical schools are different (and should be different) than standards of admissions into the top undergraduate school. And diversity is important as there have been studies (and from personal experience) that physicians of a certain ethnicity are best at serving community members of the same ethnicity.

However, the point of the articles is, "Is discrimination (just straight-out quotas) against Asians occurring in higher education in America?" And according to the research studies, the hard statistical evidence, the answer seems to point strongly to "YES, it is occurring. It is a trend similar to what happened in the 1920s against high performing Jewish Americans."

In addition, what is wrong with asking, "Why must Asians always have to outperform everyone? Why are we being punished for performing well?" If there's anything that should happen, the bar should be set higher for Caucasian-Americans, who have had power and influence in America for hundreds of years before any Asians came to the states.

I find the comments of some posters really amusing in that they just completely disregard the difficulties and discrimination that Asian immigrants and Asian Americans have faced for many decades. I don't think a lot of you realize just how many sacrifices Asian immigrant parents have to make. And now that we're outperforming everyone with genuine, hard work, everyone's like, "Tackle the Asians." Quite disgusting.

That to me is ridiculous. That to me seems morally wrong. That to me is just downright sad.


And finally, I hope that higher education in America works more on SOCIOECONOMIC diversity rather than RACIAL diversity. Socioeconomic diversity is what truly matters, in my opinion, in creating a diverse community. Otherwise, you just end up with an externally diverse community.
 
Tread carefully friends
 
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Affirmative Action and URM status in the medical school admissions process are two separate issues.

The medical community is not out to "punish" Asians. They are trying to produce a physician population that represents the country, because studies have shown that patients are more likely to trust and comply with doctors that are the same race as them. Once again, this isn't about favoring/hating certain students, it's about bettering the overall health of the country by giving patients physicians that they are comfortable with.The last time I checked, Asians make up less than 5% of the US population but are more than 15% of physicians.
 
minwoo123 said:
. I believe that the point of the articles is that in America, higher education is not based on merit (we don't live in a meritocratic society). And...uh...I've already been accepted to my top choice already, so it's not like l'm bitter or anything.....



I don't think a lot of you realize just how many sacrifices Asian immigrant parents have to make. And now that we're outperforming everyone with genuine, hard work, everyone's like, "Tackle the Asians."
.
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It is about as meritocratic a system that exists in the world. I note that thousands of families who reside in China and Korea send their children to US boarding schools and universities every year. A trend that has been skyrocketing in recent years. If American education is such a "sad state" why send your 14-18 year old kid half a world away and pay a fortune for the privilege of doing so? Knowing that you will see him or her only a few weeks a year.

Yes, Asian immigrant parents sacrifice. But so does any family of any ethnicity that moves to another country where the is a cultural difference, a language difference, a physical difference with the majority of the population. They do it because they want to make a better life for themselves and their children. It is part of the cost of making such a move. It is not unique to asain parents. All four of my grandparents were immigrants. None of whom spoke english.

Asian success in America is earned. I don't begrudge it one bit. Please bring all your friends who cherish education and value hard work and who want to come here and work for the opportunities that still exist here.

Those immigrants of whatever ethnicity who don't value education and hard work and want to come here for the social welfare benefits need not apply.

Don't play the victim card.
 
serenade said:
So how do you screen out socially inept people who have no business being within breathing distance of people? Sorry, but chances are we use the Mcat even more than we should, we need to find other measures that select for better and more humane doctors.
Click to expand...

An interview will tell you who is going to be more humane and obviously no one will fake their responses. Why did I not think of that.
 
Midifelder10 said:
An interview will tell you who is going to be more humane and obviously no one will fake their responses. Why did I not think of that.
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Chances are if you actually need to fake an interview your acting is going to be as obnoxious and tasteless as an Adam Sandler movie. But chances are you wouldn't know that because you've never even attempted to act a role in your life.
 
I really can't believe a mod hasn't shut down this disgusting xenophobic and anti-semetic thread Then again, given some of the behaviors of the mods here, I'm not too surprised either.
 
If we're looking to diversify the market of doctors, might as well diversify the NBA/NFL and make it harder for black people to get in and diversify Hollywood and make it harder for Jewish people to get in.

Asians want to be actors and professional athletes too 🙁
 
Plue00 said:
If we're looking to diversify the market of doctors, might as well diversify the NBA/NFL and make it harder for black people to get in and diversify Hollywood and make it harder for Jewish people to get in.

Asians want to be actors and professional athletes too 🙁
Click to expand...

Not in the least bit funny dude..

Here's an idea for all the opinionated pre-meds here- float these genius ideas on race and medicine you guys have with p\those you interview. Stand by your disgusting opinions with those who should hear them and know the truth about how you all fear minorities "taking your spots" in medical school
 
H Y F R said:
I really can't believe a mod hasn't shut down this disgusting xenophobic and anti-semetic thread Then again, given some of the behaviors of the mods here, I'm not too surprised either.
Click to expand...

Er, it's not all that anti-semetic, not all that xenophobic either. It's just full of a lot of incredibly dumb comments.
 
minwoo123 said:
OP here. Interesting responses! I've just been silently observing the thread and am glad to see that there have been some coherent responses. Though I hope many of you are reading the NYTimes articles at least and then commenting.

I don't think me being Asian-American has anything to do with my comment about the "sad state of education in America". I believe that the point of the articles is that in America, higher education is not based on merit (we don't live in a meritocratic society). And...uh...I've already been accepted to my top choice already, so it's not like l'm bitter or anything.....

Of course, the implications of that are, what is merit? Can merit be measured? Do we even want a meritocratic society?

I agree that the standards of admissions into medical schools are different (and should be different) than standards of admissions into the top undergraduate school. And diversity is important as there have been studies (and from personal experience) that physicians of a certain ethnicity are best at serving community members of the same ethnicity.

However, the point of the articles is, "Is discrimination (just straight-out quotas) against Asians occurring in higher education in America?" And according to the research studies, the hard statistical evidence, the answer seems to point strongly to "YES, it is occurring. It is a trend similar to what happened in the 1920s against high performing Jewish Americans."

In addition, what is wrong with asking, "Why must Asians always have to outperform everyone? Why are we being punished for performing well?" If there's anything that should happen, the bar should be set higher for Caucasian-Americans, who have had power and influence in America for hundreds of years before any Asians came to the states.

I find the comments of some posters really amusing in that they just completely disregard the difficulties and discrimination that Asian immigrants and Asian Americans have faced for many decades. I don't think a lot of you realize just how many sacrifices Asian immigrant parents have to make. And now that we're outperforming everyone with genuine, hard work, everyone's like, "Tackle the Asians." Quite disgusting.

That to me is ridiculous. That to me seems morally wrong. That to me is just downright sad.


And finally, I hope that higher education in America works more on SOCIOECONOMIC diversity rather than RACIAL diversity. Socioeconomic diversity is what truly matters, in my opinion, in creating a diverse community. Otherwise, you just end up with an externally diverse community.
Click to expand...

Ok,

"African American children are three times more likely to live in poverty than Caucasian children. American Indian/Alaska Native, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian families are more likely than Caucasian and Asian families to live in poverty (Costello, Keeler, & Angold, 2001; National Center for Education Statistics, 2007)."
Source: http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-erm.aspx

Much more interesting tidbits there and how victimizing yourself or other Asians isn't getting you any sympathy. Sorry, but there isn't an equal number of poor blacks, whites, hispanics or asians. Maybe aside from certain European groups, only whites haven't dealt with any prejudicial hardships.

I'm not belittling Asian's previous struggles and achievements, but as stated before, asians performing well on standardized tests does NOT correlate to being a good physician. Facts are as a minority group you are doing far better socioeconomically than other minorities (source above). Hell, studying for the MCAT is already a financial burden that is difficult for people to afford and factoring in interviews, applications and all that jazz. It really is difficult for families to absorb those costs and have to take out loans JUST to gamble on an acceptance.

OP I think anyone, including asian, who works hard enough will make it into medical school, but facts are people of lower socioeconomic backgrounds just aren't likely to be physicians due to lack of resources and asians just aren't statistically known for being on the lower end of the spectrum.
 
darklabel said:
Ok,

"African American children are three times more likely to live in poverty than Caucasian children. American Indian/Alaska Native, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian families are more likely than Caucasian and Asian families to live in poverty (Costello, Keeler, & Angold, 2001; National Center for Education Statistics, 2007)."
Source: http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-erm.aspx

Much more interesting tidbits there and how victimizing yourself or other Asians isn't getting you any sympathy. Sorry, but there isn't an equal number of poor blacks, whites, hispanics or asians. Maybe aside from certain European groups, only whites haven't dealt with any prejudicial hardships.

I'm not belittling Asian's previous struggles and achievements, but as stated before, asians performing well on standardized tests does NOT correlate to being a good physician. Facts are as a minority group you are doing far better socioeconomically than other minorities (source above). Hell, studying for the MCAT is already a financial burden that is difficult for people to afford and factoring in interviews, applications and all that jazz. It really is difficult for families to absorb those costs and have to take out loans JUST to gamble on an acceptance.

OP I think anyone, including asian, who works hard enough will make it into medical school, but facts are people of lower socioeconomic backgrounds just aren't likely to be physicians due to lack of resources and asians just aren't statistically known for being on the lower end of the spectrum.
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Inb4RaceWars
 
AshPreMed said:
MinWoo,

This has already been discussed before, and I suggested socioeconomic diversity instead of ethnic diversity for increased efficiency and fairness. Good catch.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=13017211#post13017211
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I think alot of people are missing the fact that the whole URM thing has nothing to do with recruiting poor people to be doctors. It's about recruiting people of color to be doctors. I know it isn't fair, but I just wanted to state the whole thing wasn't put in place for poor people. Yes, there are poor people who struggle in every race, but this whole thing was designed to recruit specific races. The majority of White and Asian docs aren't gunning to go work in the neighborhoods where these URMs actually live.
 
MuAgonist said:
I think alot of people are missing the fact that the whole URM thing has nothing to do with recruiting poor people to be doctors. It's about recruiting people of color to be doctors. I know it isn't fair, but I just wanted to state the whole thing wasn't put in place for poor people. Yes, there are poor people who struggle in every race, but this whole thing was designed to recruit specific races. The majority of White and Asian docs aren't gunning to go work in the neighborhoods where these URMs actually live.
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Then why does AMCAs have a "Disadvantaged" section in the application if they didn't care at all about recruiting poor people?

For ethnic diversity part you're right. They do want to represent all ethnic groups since we do live in a country with many different faces; however, communities where URMs live tend to be poor/lacking in resources. Also I know people who are listed as URM but have no intention of working in rural or poor urban areas where most of the blacks or hispanics live. So recruiting people who have lived in poor conditions would have a higher probability of said people going back to their community and helping out communities that actually have a physician shortage.

But this post was mostly how OP thinks its "unfair" and somehow asians are discriminated like the "smart jews" of back in the day and that for me is just ludicrous. Just because majority of people in medical school is white doesn't mean anything. There are more white people in the US than all other groups and statistically Asians, compared to other minorities, make up a small population in the US thus less asians applying compared to say whites and less getting in. If there were an equal number of asians to white than this would be a different argument.
 
darklabel said:
Then why does AMCAs have a "Disadvantaged" section in the application if they didn't care at all about recruiting poor people?

For ethnic diversity part you're right. They do want to represent all ethnic groups since we do live in a country with many different faces; however, communities where URMs live tend to be poor/lacking in resources. Also I know people who are listed as URM but have no intention of working in rural or poor urban areas where most of the blacks or hispanics live. So recruiting people who have lived in poor conditions would have a higher probability of said people going back to their community and helping out communities that actually have a physician shortage.

But this post was mostly how OP thinks its "unfair" and somehow asians are discriminated like the "smart jews" of back in the day and that for me is just ludicrous. Just because majority of people in medical school is white doesn't mean anything. There are more white people in the US than all other groups and statistically Asians, compared to other minorities, make up a small population in the US thus less asians applying compared to say whites and less getting in. If there were an equal number of asians to white than this would be a different argument.
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You're right, but the disadvantaged thing is separate from URM. I was just trying to keep the two separate. There are valid reasons for both.
 
it's funny how med schools want culturally diverse classes but we all end up hanging out with our own ethnicity in the end anyway.

anyways, i have personally faced racial adversity at the hands of peers (eg. being called many names/picked on growing up because of my skin color), but this is just not considered intrinsic to the plight of asian americans. however, many other ethnicities openly face such discrimination and are given their due grievances/special treatment. our own upward mobility and success has been to our own detriment. i don't think any other ethnicity has been able to achieve the "american dream" as successfully as we have; thus, because we have elevated our socioeconomic status we are largely ignored any special attention despite the fact that we are still silently discriminated against. albeit, this discrimination is of a different flavor. just as undocumented immigrant workers threaten blue collar jobs, we are viewed as a threat in white collar corporate america and face a very real glass ceiling in many instances-- yes check scholarly literature on this.

discrimination against asian americans is very real. am i arguing that asian americans need special treatment? no, not at all. and, i also do not believe the racial troubles we face are equal or as problematic as those faced by others. and, honestly, things will never change for asian americans unless there happens to be a paradigm shifting event(s) and/or until more time passes where the asian youth aren't primarily 1st generation.

tl;dr
 
Plue00 said:
If we're looking to diversify the market of doctors, might as well diversify the NBA/NFL and make it harder for black people to get in and diversify Hollywood and make it harder for Jewish people to get in.

Asians want to be actors and professional athletes too 🙁
Click to expand...

Lol....that is apples and oranges when compared to education.

There are Asians and Jews in Hollywood! Sports...well if they have the natural talent and take up sports as a kid, there ya go!
 
KnuxNole said:
Lol....that is apples and oranges when compared to education.

There are Asians and Jews in Hollywood! Sports...well if they have the natural talent and take up sports as a kid, there ya go!
Click to expand...

Why did you bump this clusterf***k of fallacious arguments and annoying people?
 
serenade said:
Why did you bump this clusterf***k of fallacious arguments and annoying people?
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I didn't see the date of the last post 😳
I forgot I bookmarked it because it was too long to read...and wanted to read it when I had time to spare...
 
I wonder if anyone other than hyper-analytical pre meds actually thinks about the logistics of medical school admission.

Can you picture the physicians, crowded around a surgical bed?:

"I'm still pissed I didn't get an interview invitation from such-n-such."

"I'll bet it was because you're Jewish."
 
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beating-a-dead-horse-2-300x226.jpg
 
"*the sad state of higher education in America*"

Indeed. That is the sad truth.
Learned this the hard way while applying for Undergrad.
At least I know what to face when applying to med schools.
 
Neuronette said:
"*the sad state of higher education in America*"

Indeed. That is the sad truth.
Learned this the hard way while applying for Undergrad.
At least I know what to face when applying to med schools.
Click to expand...

Enlighten us.
 
minwoo123 said:
And finally, I hope that higher education in America works more on SOCIOECONOMIC diversity rather than RACIAL diversity. Socioeconomic diversity is what truly matters, in my opinion, in creating a diverse community. Otherwise, you just end up with an externally diverse community.
Click to expand...

There's also the argument to be made that focusing on socioeconomic diversity can also help increase racial diversity since certain groups occupy certain positions on the socioeconomic ladder. For example, it's no coincidence that the poor inner-city neighborhoods are often composed of African-Americans and Hispanics since they often lack the resources to move elsewhere to other places, and face discrimination (African-Americans mostly) in locating to "good" suburbs when they do have the chance. Add to this the disinvestment of inner-city neighborhoods, redlining, sub-prime mortgages, gang violence etc. and you get significant barriers set up against an applicant coming from an area like that. So I don't see why assuming that all stats being equal, someone with a 27-29 MCAT coming from an area like that should get preference over someone with a 34.


Btw, I'm an ORM

tl;dr: Socioeconomic focus --> Racial diversity also.
 
Mornhavon said:
Doesn't seem like anyone actually read the original article that OP posted.

The issue isn't so much anti-asian discrimination, but the massive amounts of corruption in favor of jewish applicants in the ivy league. Looks like white-gentiles are the most harmed by these practices, although other groups like Asians are as well.
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Your reading capacity.... god.... The issue is that this parallels former Jewish quotas, that restricted Jews from occupying a lot spaces in Ivy League institutes.
 
Too many cornball brothers at US medical schools. Schools think that black patients want black physicians, but people who are hood-raised see through that facade instantly.
 
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