Asians

[DVMDream]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I do agree that heritages shouldn't be a determining factor in whether one applies for vet school or not, but that heritage, socioeconomic background, and opportunities are vastly different for different individuals, and that does need to be considered in admissions. Sadly, there are more people who are qualified than positions, and there is never a sure fire way to be certain who will be successful in vet school.

I agree here. It should be more than just I am blank heritage. It should be my heritage taught me this and because of what it taught me I will bring this to veterinary school. My problem currently is how socioeconomic background is determined by schools (the FAFSA). It takes into account how much ones parents make (if under 24) or what you make (if 24 or over; or can prove you are independent from your parents). It does not take into account how much money the mortgage costs, how much debt people have accumulated due to medical problems, etc, etc. So those students whose parents make very little (when compared to the average-but then again the average is incredibly skewed.) tend to get the grants and need-based scholarships. Those students whose parents make tons of money; mommy and daddy foot the bill (I can not tell you how many people I have wanted to smack because mommy or daddy has yet to give them their $150 a week allowance or whose mommy and daddy will only pay for undergrad but not graduate school). Those who are in the middle class are the ones who can not get anything. I fall right into middle class. I feel incredibly blessed to be here and would not trade it for anything. But, because of this I have had to work at least part-time; if not full-time while in school. I have also already accumulated over $50,000 in debt. My parents had a hard start early on. When I was little my mother was diagnosed with lupus and she was no longer able to work. My dad began working 3 jobs to attempt to make ends meet (one of these included delivering newspapers). It did not work; eventually they had to file for bankruptcy (destroying their credit). They have been steadily improving since, but because of the bad credit the payments they have to make each month on the mortgage is about 4 times the average. They are hanging on by a thread and trying to work with the mortgage company to keep the house from foreclosing (we have lived in this house for 18 years). My parents have no ability to help me with school, but because of what they earn every year; the FAFSA determines that they have plenty of money to fund my schooling (not taking into account anything else). It is ridiculous. The system is not right and does not take into account the necessary things. So, I look like an average middle-class, white female who had no idea what it is like to struggle based on my application; but that is far from the truth. I get how hard it is to come from nothing and try to make something; it is hard, but I am so grateful for the fact that I have had to work my a s s off to get to where I am today; I appreciate it so much more than if it would have been simply handed over to me.

 

[HopefulAg]

Affirmative action isn't the best way to go about fixing it, but the majority certainly is not being victimized for things their ancestors did.

If a less qualified person, Bobby, gets something over someone else, Johnny, just based on the color of his skin, then yes, Johnny is being victimized for what his ancestors did. That's affirmative action.

 

[Shanomong]

[.

 

[PicklePie]

If a less qualified person, Bobby, gets something over someone else, Johnny, just based on the color of his skin, then yes, Johnny is being victimized for what his ancestors did. That's affirmative action.

Both their fathers work in the same field. For every $1.00 that Johnny's dad earns, Bobby's dad earns $0.72 just because of the color of his skin.

Because minorities are turned down for home loans twice as often as equally qualified whites, Johnny's family bought a house while Bobby's family rents. Johnny's family is able to gain equity with every payment, which they can borrow against in times of need. Bobby's family does not gain any equity.

Because of this, Bobby has to work part-time after school in order to help his family stay afloat. This takes away from the time he could otherwise use to study or shadow a veterinarian. Johnny has spare time to study as well as shadow.

Many standardized tests are slightly skewed and favor the white majority, even if it is unintentional. For examples, look at the CAHSEE score gap between minority and majority students. Bobby does well, but not quite as well as Johnny does. Johnny has the benefit of being the target audience as well as having plenty of study time.

They both apply to veterinary school. Johnny's grades and test scores are slightly higher. The admissions board realizes that Bobby has struggled against institutional discrimination his whole life but still excels and does almost as well as Johnny in every way. Bobby gets in! Woo!

Johnny gets waitlisted, which pushes him to try even harder next year! He reapplies and is accepted! Woo! Or he becomes a bitter racist, whatev.

 

[BlacKAT33]

PicklePie- lol that is a nice story, hopefully the ending is true 🙂

I can see myself flipping between both sides of this. I think it really depends on the situation.

It drives me crazy when people use their race to slack off but still get scholarships etc b/c of their color. My african american friend in hs was a complete slacker and had a crappy gpa, no extra curriculars but got a scholarship to the same school as me. I am considered white even though I am Persian. my parents have faced more struggles than his family because they started with no money when my dad immigrated here. Even though he is black, his family was wealthy. I had an almost perfect gpa and a stellar resume. ARG i was so mad he got a scholarship+honors program and i got nothing!

At the same time, I know there are also minorities who work extremely hard to overcome the difficulties they have (like picklepie's story).

so i guess im a flip-flopper, but every situation is different

 

[jpeterman13]

Both their fathers work in the same field. For every $1.00 that Johnny's dad earns, Bobby's dad earns $0.72 just because of the color of his skin.

Because minorities are turned down for home loans twice as often as equally qualified whites, Johnny's family bought a house while Bobby's family rents. Johnny's family is able to gain equity with every payment, which they can borrow against in times of need. Bobby's family does not gain any equity.

Because of this, Bobby has to work part-time after school in order to help his family stay afloat. This takes away from the time he could otherwise use to study or shadow a veterinarian. Johnny has spare time to study as well as shadow.

Many standardized tests are slightly skewed and favor the white majority, even if it is unintentional. For examples, look at the CAHSEE score gap between minority and majority students. Bobby does well, but not quite as well as Johnny does. Johnny has the benefit of being the target audience as well as having plenty of study time.

They both apply to veterinary school. Johnny's grades and test scores are slightly higher. The admissions board realizes that Bobby has struggled against institutional discrimination his whole life but still excels and does almost as well as Johnny in every way. Bobby gets in! Woo!

Johnny gets waitlisted, which pushes him to try even harder next year! He reapplies and is accepted! Woo! Or he becomes a bitter racist, whatev.

Well there's also a kid named Zach who is the same skin color as Bobby's (the minority). He grew up in a very privileged community and had a wealthy family...basically funding was not an issue. Should he still have an advantage over Johnny because he has different colored skin? What is he literally did not perform as well as another qualified white student despite his family's financial support?

the entire story (as I read it) is based on the assumption that the minority makes less money. We all know that this isn't always the case, my old neighbors were Asian...rich as hell. On the other side of my house, there was a white family who lived paycheck to paycheck. Should the "minority" still have a leg up?

 

[IvyLynx]

The choice of wording of some of the sentiments here make me cringe.

It's pretty difficult to remove race from socioeconomic status, as one is a factor of the other in America. I personally check those little race boxes because my ethnicity is part of my identity, as I assume I would have turned out differently if I belonged to a different group. Ok, I know I would have.

It frustrates me when people claim heritage that they are not a part of....ie 'my great great grandfather was an apache.' I hear this stuff a lot, and am grateful that status for my heritage can't be claimed without appropriate tribal documentation. When people say things like that as a claim of heritage, I instantly know they aren't part of the culture.

I personally appreciate people accepting all aspects of their heritage. I think it's one thing for me to say that I'm part Chippewa, but completely different for me to try and pretend that I have any inkling of what it's like to actually be viewed as Chippewa or to be a member of its culture. I would never try to claim any random bits of my heritage because of it, though I do actually view myself as a person of mixed heritage. Being an eighth or thirty-secondth or whatever of X is still valid, it just might not be relevant.

 

[Minnerbelle]

We all know that this isn't always the case, my old neighbors were Asian...rich as hell. On the other side of my house, there was a white family who lived paycheck to paycheck. Should the "minority" still have a leg up?

well... isn't that why they usually also have a section where you can write about how you've been disadvantaged in any way?

i mean if i remember correctly, at least csu had a multicultural statement, unique experiences statement, AND a disadvantaged statement. so eeeveryone can put something in those. maybe someone isn't very multicultural but has super unique experiences?

i think csu was the only place that i said anything about being multicultural, simply because they asked for it. and it wasn't like "i'm asian, therefore i'm multicultural" either. i wrote about how i understand that different cultures have different standards of "common sense" when it comes to animal care/health through my life experiences. i didn't feel disadvantaged in any way so i left that statement blank.

so i reiterate, i have never felt disadvantaged "despite" the fact that i'm a minority (i mean geesh take a look at all the wealthy asians in the bay area!). HOWEVER, i grew up in a town where 99.99% of the population was white and my family of 6 pretty much made up the 0.01%. for the most part, i felt very much accepted and loved, but there was plenty of ignorance. there were several instances where i was made to feel completely inferior simply because of my race while growing up. i was quite resilient and didn't have a prob for the most part, and i actually loved my childhood. but another sibling of mine wasn't as lucky. my brother developed a lot of issues and became rather mute and didn't know how to express himself. that led to him developing tourrettes syndrome and becoming so violent to the point that he had to be removed from the household. my parents were affluent enough to ship him off to boarding school rather than having him land himself in juvi.

because of my non-english speaking household, neither of my sisters scored above a 400 on their GRE verbal. however, it does not mean that they aren't as smart or as hard working, or qualified. i hated when other kids told me that my english would never be as good as theirs, and worked waaaaaaay more on my vocab/writing even in elementary school than anyone else i know. because of that, i was able to score much higher.

not saying at all that anyone in my family should be given any kind of leg up on admissions (because i don't believe we should), but you are very wrong if you think that whites and minorities of the same financial situation are equal. there are definitely exceptions, but there's a lot of sucky things that come with being a minority with racism being a big thing.

 

[PicklePie]

Well there's also a kid named Zach who is the same skin color as Bobby's (the minority). He grew up in a very privileged community and had a wealthy family...basically funding was not an issue. Should he still have an advantage over Johnny because he has different colored skin? What is he literally did not perform as well as another qualified white student despite his family's financial support?

the entire story (as I read it) is based on the assumption that the minority makes less money. We all know that this isn't always the case, my old neighbors were Asian...rich as hell. On the other side of my house, there was a white family who lived paycheck to paycheck. Should the "minority" still have a leg up?

There are exceptions to every rule. The statements made about Bobby are true, based on real sociological studies. It is a fact that on average a black man makes only 72% of what a white man in the exact same position will make. It is a fact that minority families are turned down for home loans twice as often as equally qualified white families.

Keep in mind that Bobby is the average. For every Zach, there is a Ted who has pretty much zero chance to succeed because of the discrimination inherent in our system.

 

[HopefulAg]

It's a way of recognizing that there is a lot of lost time to make up for; that it is not possible for the socioeconomic status of this group to have equalized with that of the majority in 1/5th of the time it took us to get where we are. It's not an apology, it's a way of dealing with the ongoing lag in equality.

Yet the people they're giving affirmative action to often aren't qualified. So sure they're getting all these awesome positions and what not but there's no substance to it. How is it helping them catch up when you're just shoving them through the system when they're not ready?

Story too long to quote

Because there's no such thing as a disadvantaged white that goes through similar circumstances. 🙄 S/he certainly wouldn't get that same leg up. That is racism.

 

[DVMDream]

i didn't feel disadvantaged in any way so i left that statement blank.

I also left that statement blank. Even with struggling through school. I just felt as though there are SO many other people who have life way worse than I do. I am also just used to having to work hard and did not see it as a disadvantage; it has just become normal to me. And I still do not believe I am disadvantaged in any way. I am also very sorry to hear about your brother. I hope he is doing well and getting better. I had a similar issue with my sister except her problems were with anger management and drugs. Fortunately, she ended up in jail and over the past 5 years has been slowly turning her life back around. It is very hard to watch anyone you love go through something like that. I wish your brother and family the best.

 

[PicklePie]

Because there's no such thing as a disadvantaged white that goes through similar circumstances. 🙄 S/he certainly wouldn't get that same leg up. That is racism.

Haha, of course there are. Like me Whitey-white-white to the bone with plenty of financial and social issues dragging me down, I won't go into specifics since it's a long story. But that is why I filled out the little 'disadvantaged' text box on my supplemental applications. There are plenty of chances to plead your case and explain your situation.

The problem is that when you look at averages, the average white person is doing a hell of a lot better than the average minority. There are huge problems with the way things are run and affirmative action is a sloppy fix. It is better than no fix at all.

This is long and wordy, but I think a lot of people in this thread would benefit from reading it.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id...2UtYjkyZS00NTA2LThhNjUtNjI5OWJiNzg2ZTg4&hl=en

 

[HopefulAg]

The problem is that when you look at averages, the average white person is doing a hell of a lot better than the average minority. There are huge problems with the way things are run and affirmative action is a sloppy fix. It is better than no fix at all.

At some point the minorities need to look out for themselves. My sister is a teacher, and she teaches a large portion of minorities as well as some white folks. This is 1st grade and what happens? For the most part the minority's parents don't give a **** about their kid. I know this sounds harsh but that's the way of it. When she speaks to white parents, she gets a much better response than a minority parent. They simply don't care about their children's futures: don't make them do homework, do the homework for them, don't take an interest in their child's education, don't reprimand the child for acting out, nothing.

Now that's not all cases, and it's not to say all white parents are perfect (lord knows that's not true) but there's a very plain trend there. I think that's a cultural issue that needs to be worked out. Giving them preferential treatment exacerbates the effect because they don't need to work for something in the lower levels (seriously, they're shoved through grade school. My sister couldn't hold a student back if she tried, and she has. Several times) and they don't need to work for something in the higher levels either.

Affirmative action does more harm than good IMO. And yes that's anecdotal evidence but I can't think of a study that would have the funding to even try to prove that, so that's all I have for you. So perhaps the lower averages aren't exactly the majority's fault.

Whitey-white-white to the bone with plenty of financial and social issues dragging me down. But that is why I filled the hell out of the little 'disadvantaged' text box on my WI supplemental application. There are plenty of chances to plead your case and explain your situation.

A minority could plead their case just as well.

 

[jpeterman13]

not saying at all that anyone in my family should be given any kind of leg up on admissions (because i don't believe we should), but you are very wrong if you think that whites and minorities of the same financial situation are equal. there are definitely exceptions, but there's a lot of sucky things that come with being a minority with racism being a big thing.

I guess my main point is that applying the idea that "whites make more than minorities" to every situation can potentially give someone a leg up when they really shouldn't have any advantage. It varies so much from case to case, nowadays, I think that we need to rethink our paradigms regarding situations like this. I'm not speaking as generally as you are implying, I am talking about the exceptions.

There are exceptions to every rule. The statements made about Bobby are true, based on real sociological studies. It is a fact that on average a black man makes only 72% of what a white man in the exact same position will make. It is a fact that minority families are turned down for home loans twice as often as equally qualified white families.

Keep in mind that Bobby is the average. For every Zach, there is a Ted who has pretty much zero chance to succeed because of the discrimination inherent in our system.

That is exactly my point, that there are exceptions. So these exceptions could end up robbing someone of a seat because of these "averages". We all know about a Bell shaped curve, that puts some at the high end, right? So when those kids apply (the ones at the high end), they get the same luxury of being labeled as underprivileged (for the lack of a better word) when they aren't at all. Trust me, I go to school with A LOT of them. In some cases I am the minority being a white guy (although i am "pretty fly for a white guy 😎"). They drive crazy Cadillac CTS' and have the newest Macs as soon as they come out. I don't think that it's fair that just because they have a different colored skin, they get the advantage. That is what I am trying to get to.

*these two responses are delivered with utmost levity. I'm not racist in any way shape or form, I guess it's my believe that people are equal that drives my opinions about a Utopian application process...which I know will never happen.

 

[Minnerbelle]

At some point the minorities need to look out for themselves. My sister is a teacher, and she teaches a large portion of minorities as well as some white folks. This is 1st grade and what happens? For the most part the minority's parents don't give a **** about their kid. I know this sounds harsh but that's the way of it. When she speaks to white parents, she gets a much better response than a minority parent. They simply don't care about their children's futures: don't make them do homework, do the homework for them, don't take an interest in their child's education, don't reprimand the child for acting out, nothing.

This makes me want to cry... do you really think that just because parents don't come to the parent-teacher conference, follow up with the teacher's phone calls, or bring cup cakes to school, that means they don't care about their child? I know you're trying to say that if a child is failing in school, then the parents should do something if they care... but that doesn't mean that if they don't do anything, they don't love their kids.

A lot of studies have shown that even at a very young age, many underrepresented minority children have the mindset that "school is not for them." That is not the child's fault. They are not old enough to make a decision for themselves. Partially, that idea is brought on by their parents who also don't believe that "school is not for their children", but a lot of that has to do with how minorities are perceived in general.

Even IF it was that the parents didn't give a **** about their children as you say, how is that the child's fault? If there really is such a great correlation between being a minority and not caring about your kids... shouldn't something be done to level the playing field for these kids? What if they grow up and realize in 9th grade that they really do value education and want to go to college? By 9th grade... this child is already waaaaay behind the college bound white kids whose parents "cared" enough to keep them on track. No matter how hard this kid works, he/she's not going to be as qualified as the white kids.

am i missing something here? or is it okay to tell these kids that maybe their parents should have cared... in the hopes that "they'll realize the mistakes all these minority parents make with their kids' education" and do better for their kids and "take the initiative themselves." chances are... these kids are just going to be reaffirming their childhood notion that school is not for minority folk... and make sure that their kids "know their place"

i have worked with some of these high schoolers so i'm not making this stuff up... i've taken a chemistry high school student who failed (20% test average) and taught the 2nd semester to him throughout the summer and had him retake the tests so he could pass the class and still be eligible for sports. the hardest part was to get him in the mindset that it is possible for him to do well. that A's in the sciences are not just for the white and asian kids. his mindset until then was "why even bother? i'm not going anywhere anyways." once he started believing that he could do it, he passed the class with a test average just 2 percent shy of an A.

 

[PicklePie]

That is exactly my point, that there are exceptions. So these exceptions could end up robbing someone of a seat because of these "averages". We all know about a Bell shaped curve, that puts some at the high end, right? So when those kids apply (the ones at the high end), they get the same luxury of being labeled as underprivileged (for the lack of a better word) when they aren't at all. Trust me, I go to school with A LOT of them. In some cases I am the minority being a white guy (although i am "pretty fly for a white guy 😎"). They drive crazy Cadillac CTS' and have the newest Macs as soon as they come out. I don't think that it's fair that just because they have a different colored skin, they get the advantage. That is what I am trying to get to.

I wouldn't call it robbing, that's a little inflammatory. Even if they are at the high end, they aren't doing as well as high end white guys. That 72% earning statistic is true for professionals as well, the survey involved doctors and lawyers. So the high end kids are still not where they rightfully should be. Personally I think it is better that a few undeserving kids slip by and get a leg up than a bunch of deserving kids get held back.

And you really should read the article that I linked. I don't want to offend, but white dudes in general don't realize just how well off they are. We white ladies only get about $0.78 for every dollar that white guys do, so think about the gap between white guys and minority women.

Bootstraps bootstraps!

Do you honestly think that affirmative action funnels black slackers into vet schools?

 

[Minnerbelle]

I guess my main point is that applying the idea that "whites make more than minorities" to every situation can potentially give someone a leg up when they really shouldn't have any advantage. It varies so much from case to case, nowadays, I think that we need to rethink our paradigms regarding situations like this. I'm not speaking as generally as you are implying, I am talking about the exceptions.

and i was agreeing with you in my post. i was saying that because there are so many exceptions, there are all those sections in the applications so EVERYONE has the chance to talk about anything they felt disadvantaged about. and I never said anywhere here that your race (purely for the sake of race with no other circumstances attached) should be a leg up.

so i have no idea what exactly you thought i was implying...

but my point in that post you refer to was that i understand that there are exceptions. i am an exception, and i don't believe that i should receive any kind of leniency. i thought i made myself clear. HOWEVER, I was trying to implicitly suggest through talking about my personal experiences that people who have not experienced being a minority (and being white in a predominantly URM college does not count) should be a bit more sensitive about making statements about these "exception minority" people who they think are mooching off the system. There's also a huge difference between talking about an URM and an OVERrepresented minority.

 

[BlacKAT33]

This makes me want to cry... do you really think that just because parents don't come to the parent-teacher conference, follow up with the teacher's phone calls, or bring cup cakes to school, that means they don't care about their child? I know you're trying to say that if a child is failing in school, then the parents should do something if they care... but that doesn't mean that if they don't do anything, they don't love their kids.

A lot of studies have shown that even at a very young age, many underrepresented minority children have the mindset that "school is not for them." That is not the child's fault. They are not old enough to make a decision for themselves. Partially, that idea is brought on by their parents who also don't believe that "school is not for their children", but a lot of that has to do with how minorities are perceived in general.

Even IF it was that the parents didn't give a **** about their children as you say, how is that the child's fault? If there really is such a great correlation between being a minority and not caring about your kids... shouldn't something be done to level the playing field for these kids? What if they grow up and realize in 9th grade that they really do value education and want to go to college? By 9th grade... this child is already waaaaay behind the college bound white kids whose parents "cared" enough to keep them on track. No matter how hard this kid works, he/she's not going to be as qualified as the white kids.

am i missing something here? or is it okay to tell these kids that maybe their parents should have cared... in the hopes that "they'll realize the mistakes all these minority parents make with their kids' education" and do better for their kids and "take the initiative themselves." chances are... these kids are just going to be reaffirming their childhood notion that school is not for minority folk... and make sure that their kids "know their place"

i have worked with some of these high schoolers so i'm not making this stuff up... i've taken a chemistry high school student who failed (20% test average) and taught the 2nd semester to him throughout the summer and had him retake the tests so he could pass the class and still be eligible for sports. the hardest part was to get him in the mindset that it is possible for him to do well. that A's in the sciences are not just for the white and asian kids. his mindset until then was "why even bother? i'm not going anywhere anyways." once he started believing that he could do it, he passed the class with a test average just 2 percent shy of an A.

My mother is a teacher too, and she does find this with african american/lower income parents. Not all, but majority. I wouldn't go as far as to say they dont give a ****. Some do care but have other worries such as just supporting the children. Others really dont care at all. I think it is a cycle that passes on from parent to child, if they were raised that they can't succeed and school doesnt matter... they probably won't teach their kids that way either. (altho im sure there are exceptions who want a change for their kids)

I do think something should be done about this, but i think it should start when the kids are younger. Not when they are in high school and have made C/D's every semester and suddenly have a change of heart.
I think that we should start with the kids AND the parents of the child at a young age. Talk about positive reinforcement, role modeling, importance of education, etc etc. Both the parents and kids need support. And parents do need to be more involved because the school system can not give PERSONALIZED help for EVERY student. Pushing your kids to do their homework, and better, to understand the homework is very important. It's hard work being involved in your kids education, but it makes ALL the diff. I think mentor programs for underprivileged kids are great. I dont necessarily think that affirmative action could do as much as these things above.

I guess its more like solving a problem at the core instead of superficially.

Also, i posted an article in the previous page about this same topic so i'll slip it in again since the convo turned to the exact same thing as the article.
http://www.nmanet.org/images/uploads/Journal/OC986.pdf

 

[jpeterman13]

I never said anywhere here that your race (purely for the sake of race with no other circumstances attached) should be a leg up.

I guess I misunderstood you then

 

[HopefulAg]

This makes me want to cry... do you really think that just because parents don't come to the parent-teacher conference, follow up with the teacher's phone calls, or bring cup cakes to school, that means they don't care about their child? I know you're trying to say that if a child is failing in school, then the parents should do something if they care... but that doesn't mean that if they don't do anything, they don't love their kids.

You misunderstood. I didn't say that not doing that stuff makes them a terrible parent who doesn't care. I said that they simply DON'T care, as in doing those things isn't even a thought in most of their minds. You should hear some of the stories and reactions my sister gets from parents. One lady who had her kid held back in my sister's class literally yanked her son out of the class at the beginning of the new year, marched him down to the principal's office, screamed at the principal that her son wasn't going to stay back a year, and ended up getting him put in second grade. The kid can't even write his own name. That is not caring about your kids education.

Even IF it was that the parents didn't give a **** about their children as you say, how is that the child's fault?

While I never said it was the child's fault, it is up to the kid to do his own work. But you can't expect a first grader to think like that. Does not change the fact that the parents need to step up.

Do you honestly think that affirmative action funnels black slackers into vet schools?

Never said that either. However you can't deny they get funneled into other areas. There are likely other bars they can't penetrate that prevents them from getting funneled into vet school; financial likely as you know as well as I how expensive simply applying to vet school is. I don't think there's scholarships and what not for the application process aside from some schools waiving supp fees.

chances are... these kids are just going to be reaffirming their childhood notion that school is not for minority folk... and make sure that their kids "know their place"

Again, this is a parenting issue associated with that demographic. You would think (hope) they would want better for their own children and encourage them thusly. There's truly only so much that a teacher can do to encourage and inspire. Parents have to be held accountable. Wish it wasn't like that but they have way, WAY more time with their kid than teachers do and their effort isn't divided amongst 30 other kids.

 

[DVMDream]

I am curious to what everybody else thinks about kids who are part of a under represented minority, but when they were infants they were adopted and raised by caucasians. Essentially, the are getting the same benefits as the majority while being part of a minority race. They could have some really interesting personal statements and unique experience essays. Anyone else have an opinion; should they also be given a leg-up because they can consider themselves a minority?

**I am not in any way attempting to sound rude or discriminating to those who have been adopted this is just a general question. Two of my roommates/friends are adopted.**

 

[BlacKAT33]

I am curious to what everybody else thinks about kids who are part of a under represented minority, but when they were infants they were adopted and raised by caucasians. Essentially, the are getting the same benefits as the majority while being part of a minority race. They could have some really interesting personal statements and unique experience essays. Anyone else have an opinion; should they also be given a leg-up because they can consider themselves a minority?

**I am not in any way attempting to sound rude or discriminating to those who have been adopted this is just a general question. Two of my roommates/friends are adopted.**

I know a girl exactly like this. born somewhere in south america and adopted by a white family, raised with all the majority benefits. you can also tell that her parents were very involved in her life. (sports, importance of education, volunteering) she did it all. she excelled a lot academically and was always doing charity events. she is now in vet school!!

edit: i have no clue what she wrote her race down as, if anything at all. but i do know that she did not get a leg up, she worked hard and deserved to get accepted.

 

[PicklePie]

You should hear some of the stories and reactions my sister gets from parents.

Did you ever stop to wonder just why so many minority students are doing poorly in your sister's class? There is a general assumption that men are better at math than women, so someone conducted a study of elementary school math classes. They found that girls were called on much less often, with acted to discourage them. When teachers were made to call on boys and girls the same number of times, the girls' scores improved but the teachers felt that they were favoring the girls. I can't find the paper anymore, otherwise I'd link to it. The teachers weren't out to get the girls, but their unintentional bias affected their success.

However you can't deny they get funneled into other areas.

And what areas would those be?

 

[OtakuVet]

Responding to DVMDream, Im an african american student. Things...let me just have it like this. My world has always been different for me because Im the first one in my entire family to actually pursue professional school. Im one of the few in my family who has not had a kid before the age of 18. It just kinda skipped my mom, sister and myself. But I've posted my thoughts on this once before. I will just do it again. I, feel that affirmative action is a cop out to actually helping african americans and low income families. Yeah its nice to help that one percent. But I dont think many of you realize how few make it to where we are today. They need help. We need to start organizing community programs to help people to make it so we dont have to use measures where the few that slip through the cracks get these opportunities. Because from my point of view, I find it unfair. I hate the fact that my cousins and even my sisters are discouraged that they cant get anywhere. And its the schools that isnt helping them with this and its apathy. Straight apathy. i believe that in all professions if we were to branch out to these people and tell them that its a possibility then it can get better. But it all starts with the education of the parents and the homes. Im sorry food stamps dont make things better. Giving them a job at Mcdonalds or walmart doenst change the future. I dont feel I deserve any leg up but I also feel that people deserve to be given the chance...and many many children arent even given the chance to dream. So affirmative action not for it. People letting me in because my life sucks and Im a minority, not for it. People given an ACTUAL equal opportunity. Im all for that.

 

[badcats]

Not exactly on topic, but semi-related...
A lot of people who come from a financially disadvantaged background who excel despite it tend to gravitate toward a career that will prevent them from ever having to deal with financial issues again, such as medical doctors, lawyers, or business owners. Vet med doesn't really fit that bill since as we all know it is one of the worst debt:income ratios possible for higher education.

The argument is being made that being a minority automatically puts you at a financial and educational disadvantage, so wouldn't the same reasoning apply?

 

[Minnerbelle]

At some point the minorities need to look out for themselves. My sister is a teacher, and she teaches a large portion of minorities as well as some white folks. This is 1st grade and what happens? For the most part the minority's parents don't give a **** about their kid. I know this sounds harsh but that's the way of it. When she speaks to white parents, she gets a much better response than a minority parent. They simply don't care about their children's futures: don't make them do homework, do the homework for them, don't take an interest in their child's education, don't reprimand the child for acting out, nothing.

You misunderstood. I didn't say that not doing that stuff makes them a terrible parent who doesn't care.

Sorry for misunderstanding... but that's exactly what I thought you meant from the above paragraph. "For the most part the minority's parents don't give at **** about their kid" sounds like pretty horrible parenting to me...

And I totally agree that MUCH more has to be done to solve the problem at the core, but I'm not sure that affirmative action (which I consider a makeshift bandage) should be taken away until the wound has healed at least somewhat and the bandage is no longer needed.



..
..

 

[PicklePie]

And I totally agree that MUCH more has to be done to solve the problem at the core, but I'm not sure that affirmative action (which I consider a makeshift bandage) should be taken away until the wound has healed at least somewhat and the bandage is no longer needed.

This exactly. Affirmative action is a lame temporary measure, but removing it without coming up with an actual solution to the problem isn't the brightest idea. Personally, I do not think that it does more harm than good and any white person who feels totally victimized by it does not fully understand the situation.

Badcats, I certainly can't speak for a whole group, but sometimes even a little financial stability can mean a whole heck of a lot. I'm sure everyone here understands that vets don't rake in the dough, but the idea of having a stable income with health benefits is so freaking exciting after living in less than ideal conditions.

 

[DVMDream]

Responding to DVMDream, QUOTE]


I am not sure which one of my posts you are responding to. But, I do agree with you. I do not believe affirmative action works as well as some people think it does. I also do believe we need to help out the children who are less fortunate and maybe educate their parents and show them that their kids can succeed. There are many things wrong in this country and unfortunately I do not see this one being addressed appropriately anytime soon. But there are many disadvantaged children out there from all different races. I mentioned earlier that I watched my sister fall into drugs; I have gone to some of the places she has lived; places that many people would not go within 20 miles of. It is sad, really sad. I understand that these young kids living in these areas need help; they do not realize that they have sooo much potential because there is nobody around to show them that they can do whatever they want and that they can make their lives better. My sister's step-son is 8 years old and he said to me that he would like to go into the army and then become a doctor; that is if he doesn't die before he gets the chance. I asked him what he meant by dying before he gets the opportunity. He mentioned that every night he hears gun shots going off and he is afraid that one of these times the bullet is going to hit him. I have never cried so hard before. This is what I mean by how absolutely privileged I am and how I may have had it harder than some people; I would never consider myself disadvantaged. There are way too many children who can not get the help they need to achieve their dreams. I wish there was a good answer to give all of those young kids what they deserve, regardless of race, but I am clueless as to what that answer is.

 

[jpeterman13]

Responding to DVMDream, QUOTE]

He mentioned that every night he hears gun shots going off and he is afraid that one of these times the bullet is going to hit him. I have never cried so hard before.

I used to spend a lot of my time in Flint MI...and let me tell you, this was a legitimate concern. It's scary to be in a place that when a gun goes off, you know that the police probably won't be around anytime soon to check it out.

 

[twelvetigers]

If a gun goes off here, I assume someone is hunting deer.

I can't imagine.

Sorry... continue.

 

[DVMDream]

I used to spend a lot of my time in Flint MI...and let me tell you, this was a legitimate concern. It's scary to be in a place that when a gun goes off, you know that the police probably won't be around anytime soon to check it out.

Ya, every once in a while I will hear guns go off in my neighborhood and I know no one is going to come check it out. But it is far and few between and I am much older. To think that this 8 year old is hearing them every night is just heart-wrenching. Luckily, they have recently moved to a slightly nicer neighborhood so hopefully he will fill safer now. I just feel so bad for kids that have to live in those types of areas it is disturbing.

 

[Minnerbelle]

+1 Otakuvet

I completely agree with what you and BlacKat are saying, and I think I just realized why this thread (with respects to the discussions about URMs) has been really bugging me. It seems like a lot of people only get riled up about affirmative action because "it takes away from qualified white students," but seem rather apathetic about what NEEDS to be done so that URMs are given a chance and given an equal opportunity. As I've said earlier, I feel like affirmative action is a rather pathetic bandaid on a wound (a gaping one at that which probably will not heal on its own). There is no way that affirmative action in itself is ever going to help the core issue. The reason I say that we still shouldn't get rid of affirmative action is that it's one incentive that can still get an older child to turn things around or keep hoping if they wanted to. Yes, we need to start improving the quality of minority education/childrearing from pre-school and up to ensure they have a strong foundation... and I know that by high school it's too late for a lot of kids, but I've seen some deserving kids who probably would not even have tried had it not been for affirmative action.

Someone said earlier that it wasn't the white population's fault for the state of URMs... but a lot of the foundation for many cities' poverty rates for minorities were systematically set up that way. I took a class on it my senior year in college and it was frightening. I'm not going to attach my whole paper about it here, but unless you can say that the Federal Housing Association, redlining, and blockbusting has nothing to do with it, I think the government (and therefore tax payers) needs to step it up to rectify the situation.

The following was a huge eye opener for me:
.
.
."This legacy of disadvantage for minorities is glaring, if you consider that the average net worth of a black family is currently 1/8 the average net worth of a white family nationwide, while comparisons between families of similar wealth show through all measures of success (rates of college graduation, rates of employment and work hours, welfare usage) that they are equal along racial lines14. Given that the white people prospering in the suburbs are not aware of the systematic redlining of minority communities by banks, it’s not hard to understand why the correlation between minority races and poverty (and all the ills that come with it) is confused as causation. This results in the formation of negative stereotypes about minorities that ultimately allows the rest of society to blame poverty in minority communities on the minority members themselves.".

 

[HopefulAg]

Did you ever stop to wonder just why so many minority students are doing poorly in your sister's class? There is a general assumption that men are better at math than women, so someone conducted a study of elementary school math classes. They found that girls were called on much less often, with acted to discourage them. When teachers were made to call on boys and girls the same number of times, the girls' scores improved but the teachers felt that they were favoring the girls. I can't find the paper anymore, otherwise I'd link to it. The teachers weren't out to get the girls, but their unintentional bias affected their success.

Yes I have stopped to wonder that, but that study is not reflective of the situation. The white students are the minority in her class. There's a whole of 2 (out of 30) white kids in her current class. One of which is very quiet and refuses to respond most of the time (though she has external issues with family) so that leaves 1 kid that she would be giving supposed preferential treatment to. She spends a lot of time with her 'trouble students' (those not doing well) but she can only do so much. If the kid is refusing to respond, won't do their work, won't respond to her, lashes out at her (she's been hit by a student before; kid has severe anger issues), well, there's only so much she can be held responsible for. Once again, she is NOT their parents nor is she a substitution for them.

And what areas would those be?

Sorry there's no clear and simple answer to that question. Affirmative action is pushed on any government entity and suggested to private ones. 'Funneled' may not have been the correct word (as it indicates a focal point), I suppose 'forced' might have been a better option.

I completely agree with what you and BlacKat are saying, and I think I just realized why this thread (with respects to the discussions about URMs) has been really bugging me. It seems like a lot of people only get riled up about affirmative action because "it takes away from qualified white students,"

It's not about the white kid getting jipped. If there was an affirmative action equivalent for whites, I'd be opposed to that as well (I'd exploit the hell out of it in the mean time though). It's about propagating racism while saying 'oh we're fixing it' with the same device.

 

[jpeterman13]

It's about propagating racism while saying 'oh we're fixing it' with the same device.

👍👍👍

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[twelvetigers]

The other day, someone wrote that they were "siked" about something, rather than "psyched." I haven't slept since.

 

[PicklePie]

The other day, someone wrote that they were "siked" about something, rather than "psyched." I haven't slept since.

Maybe they were so nauseated that they dropped a c?

 

[dgm]

gyped

Gypped!

 

[HopefulAg]

Totally off topic (OK not totally), but it's gyped, which has its word root in gypsy, who was also a URM group often accused of stealing, so to "gyp" someone was a derogatory way to say "to steal"

OK that's my dorky history major moment of the day😀. Carry on.

Yah I looked at it for a while thinking "that's not right". I tried gipped first (so I was on the right track lol) but then changed it to jipped. I shall remember the gypsies next time I want to talk of someone getting shafted lol.

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[dlf]

Eggs n Coffee: What's your plan B if you're so interested in ours? I don't know if your attitude will get you very far in a Med school interview.

 

[sumstorm]

It's pretty difficult to remove race from socioeconomic status, as one is a factor of the other in America. I personally check those little race boxes because my ethnicity is part of my identity, as I assume I would have turned out differently if I belonged to a different group. Ok, I know I would have.

actually, if they couldn't be seperated, we wouldn't have any individuals of race in different socioeconomic classes...and both of us would probably not have the opportunity to change our socioeconomic class in a single generation. I may have turned out differently, but at this point, I believe I have had amazing opportunities that other students haven't had, and those are enough to display how exceptional my experiences have been. I just don't think it should matter, and sometimes moving ahead even when society hasn't caught up is the best way to move things forward (and that isn't suggesting that others should do the same....just my personal motivations.) I also don't include gender in my applications for schools/jobs/etc if at all avoidable.

I personally appreciate people accepting all aspects of their heritage. I think it's one thing for me to say that I'm part Chippewa, but completely different for me to try and pretend that I have any inkling of what it's like to actually be viewed as Chippewa or to be a member of its culture. I would never try to claim any random bits of my heritage because of it, though I do actually view myself as a person of mixed heritage. Being an eighth or thirty-secondth or whatever of X is still valid, it just might not be relevant.

I am going to put it this way, and I am sure it will offend someone, but I think it will make sense. I have black south african heritage via the carribean in my genetic heritage, but it is distant and a part of the native heritage. Someone who claims apache would be akin to me saying I am a 'n-word'. Apache means 'enemy' and isn't a name these individuals call themselves, most use sub tribal names or dente or tinde. I am pretty sure most people would be offended if I walked up and called myself a term that is considered insulting to the population. So it frustrates me when others do it. It then means they are claiming the heritage for the purpose of claiming it, NOT because it has influenced and affected their life.

Of course, my personal opinion, and it doesn't really mean much in terms of real world (I tend to be way too idealistic.)

 

[sumstorm]

Yet the people they're giving affirmative action to often aren't qualified. So sure they're getting all these awesome positions and what not but there's no substance to it. How is it helping them catch up when you're just shoving them through the system when they're not ready?

I am sorry, I realize you are generalizing, but we are on a vet focused forum, so I am going to say that I do NOT think that applicants who AREN'T qualified are being admitted to vet school. I also don't think vet schools are shoving people through when they aren't ready.

 

[sumstorm]

At some point the minorities need to look out for themselves. My sister is a teacher, and she teaches a large portion of minorities as well as some white folks. This is 1st grade and what happens? For the most part the minority's parents don't give a **** about their kid. I know this sounds harsh but that's the way of it. When she speaks to white parents, she gets a much better response than a minority parent. They simply don't care about their children's futures: don't make them do homework, do the homework for them, don't take an interest in their child's education, don't reprimand the child for acting out, nothing.

OK....really, lets think about this. My parents worked two jobs plus ran the farm from the time I was 8. Before that, my father worked two jobs and my mother one (he worked 2 & 3, and she worked 1st to cut down on child care costs.)

I was a latchkey kid from age 8. That means my parents didn't have time to check homework, never went to school functions, etc. Many days I was lucky to speak with them, and if we did talk, it was while doing chores.

Neither of my parents graduated high school. Some of their siblings did. I was the first generation to go to college, and it was viewed as a 'slacker' move to avoid working (despite the fact that I still worked FT.) They also wouldn't assist with the EFC. Why? well, as they said, if I am old enough to be considered an adult for criminal activities and military service, the government should consider me an adult for education purposes (and I happen to agree with my parents on that.)

I have caucasion siblings who were given full scholarships for state undergrad. Why? Because they played sports. They were C/D students. I was better off attending a private lib arts school scholarship wise than a local state university (it cost me less) and I was a 4.0 high school student. Their mom went to every event...their dad came from a well off family who set him up in his own business (his siblings were lawyers and doctors.) So apparently she cared more...they had far more opportunities but did far less with them (both are now in their 6th year of undergrad without degrees.)

Should my parents have cared more? Possibly. However, they achieved their goal; they raised a self-sufficient, independent child who will not move back in with them. For them, that is success...and they would take that over a kid who boomerangs back into the house after 4 or 8 years of school, so that they can now focus their attention on caring for thier parents. The best thing my parents ever did was tell me 'go look it up.' Fortunatly for me, I embraced that idea.

There aren't easy solutions...at least not until we are able to provide adequate child care with solid educational strategies for all children from birth on, along with adequate safe housing and ample nourishment. Otherwise, children from families that are limited socio-economicly will always be disadvantaged, whether that socio economic limitation is due to historical discrimination, poor fiscal decisions, lack of money management knowledge, or changes in fortune (such as loosing a job in a hard economy.)

 

[oscarmomma]

I am curious to what everybody else thinks about kids who are part of a under represented minority, but when they were infants they were adopted and raised by caucasians. Essentially, the are getting the same benefits as the majority while being part of a minority race. They could have some really interesting personal statements and unique experience essays. Anyone else have an opinion; should they also be given a leg-up because they can consider themselves a minority?

**I am not in any way attempting to sound rude or discriminating to those who have been adopted this is just a general question. Two of my roommates/friends are adopted.**

hmm not sure if this has already been addressed...ill be honest i read most of these posts but really- some are quite long lol. i just thought i'd put in my 2 cents since i happen to be korean and adopted by a Caucasian middle-class family of suburbia

it's kind of funny to think of myself as a minority since i really am one of the "whitest" people you'll ever meet (no offense meant). the only time i realize i am a "minority" is when people point it out to me...aka "why don't you look like your mom/dad/sister?" or "why do you have the most english sounding name ever but look like you do" or, my favorite, when i'm out to eat with my mother.. "are you two together or should i give separate checks?" It has shaped me as a person, but ive never felt like i don't belong or that i dont have a real family.

so, i check the asian box on applications because it's there and it is what my ethnic background is. I answer it just like any other question on an application- honestly. If it "looks" good, great but i really hope if i'm accepted it's because of my hard work, not how i may look. I think that everyone should use anything they can to get an advantage and that encompasses everything that makes you, well, YOU. i dont see my "race" as an advantage, so to speak, but just a part of who i am.

hopefully this clears up any questions you may have had...? haha 🙂

 

[DVMDream]

hmm not sure if this has already been addressed...ill be honest i read most of these posts but really- some are quite long lol. i just thought i'd put in my 2 cents since i happen to be korean and adopted by a Caucasian middle-class family of suburbia

it's kind of funny to think of myself as a minority since i really am one of the "whitest" people you'll ever meet (no offense meant). the only time i realize i am a "minority" is when people point it out to me...aka "why don't you look like your mom/dad/sister?" or "why do you have the most english sounding name ever but look like you do" or, my favorite, when i'm out to eat with my mother.. "are you two together or should i give separate checks?" It has shaped me as a person, but ive never felt like i don't belong or that i dont have a real family.

so, i check the asian box on applications because it's there and it is what my ethnic background is. I answer it just like any other question on an application- honestly. If it "looks" good, great but i really hope if i'm accepted it's because of my hard work, not how i may look. I think that everyone should use anything they can to get an advantage and that encompasses everything that makes you, well, YOU. i dont see my "race" as an advantage, so to speak, but just a part of who i am.

hopefully this clears up any questions you may have had...? haha 🙂

Thanks for this. I am always glad to hear someone's opinion who is actually in the situation. Two of my roommates were adopted by fairly rich caucasian families (upper-class). One is caucasian and the other is Indian (from India). It is always interesting to hear what they have experienced. I was just wondering what someone who was applying for vet school or accepted to vet school's opinion was who was in this situation. Thank you for your honest opinion. Good luck on your applications!!