Ask a first year small animal vet

[WildFlowerDVM]

Hello,
I have been off SDN since I was pre-vet 5 or so years ago. I have now almost finished my first year in a medium sized small animal practice. I have since visited SDN just to read up and I feel like the tone is kind of depressing towards pre-vet students and the veterinary career in general. I love my job in general practice and I know a lot of people are interested in small animal medicine. I struggled in vet school and in undergrad but if you would ask me if I would do it again to become a vet I would say absolutely yes. I have a great work life balance and the opportunities in vet med are extensive if you are willing to work for it. Being a new vet is hard but rewarding. If you are having anxiety about the career in general ask me anything! Its just one persons opinion and I am sure my situation is not true for all new grads. I encourage people to go to vet school and mentor a lot of pre-vets in my clinic. Some vets discourage people from entering the career which I don't necessarily agree with. I am just here to give my perspective as someone who does not regret my career and is happy with my choice on choosing to go to vet school.

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[Minnerbelle]

Rather than starting a new thread, especially because I think it is very important to put together the experiences of many veterinarians in one place for easy reference, it may be a good idea for you to add to this thread.

http://www-forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php?threads/Would-you-do-it-over-again?.1121682/

It's been about half a year, I feel like people should also put in updates every 6-12 months as their experiences change, as many of us were venturing into relatively new territories as we posted initially.

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[WhtsThFrequency]

Hello,
I have been off SDN since I was pre-vet 5 or so years ago. I have now almost finished my first year in a medium sized small animal practice. I have since visited SDN just to read up and I feel like the tone is kind of depressing towards pre-vet students and the veterinary career in general. I love my job in general practice and I know a lot of people are interested in small animal medicine. I struggled in vet school and in undergrad but if you would ask me if I would do it again to become a vet I would say absolutely yes. I have a great work life balance and the opportunities in vet med are extensive if you are willing to work for it. Being a new vet is hard but rewarding. If you are having anxiety about the career in general ask me anything! Its just one persons opinion and I am sure my situation is not true for all new grads. I encourage people to go to vet school and mentor a lot of pre-vets in my clinic. Some vets discourage people from entering the career which I don't necessarily agree with. I am just here to give my perspective as someone who does not regret my career and is happy with my choice on choosing to go to vet school.

Why? And define discourage. I.e. are there reasons do you believe are not grounds for discouragement that people who are negative towards the career tend to cite? I feel we are much more realistic as opposed to plain old negative Nancys here. Truth hurts.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

Well, it is your first year practicing. Isn't there a sort of "honeymoon phase"?

Please post updates every year. I'll subscribe to see the evolution.

 

[Minnerbelle]

And define discourage.

In this forum, it means saying anything negative about the profession.

(And anyone who is "discouraging" must be the loser vet/vet student who has nothing better to do than rant on a prevet forum. You know, the outliers in a field full of happy people who feel their jobs are sunshine and rainbows filled with unicorn farts)

geez in your years here, have you not learned anything?


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[dyachei]

Well, it is your first year practicing. Isn't there a sort of "honeymoon phase"?

Please post updates every year. I'll subscribe to see the evolution.

yes, yes there is.

I think realism needs to happen. And it isn't always negative. But it's important to have realistic expectations for the field.

I have to say...it kind of makes me chuckle when people come online complaining about all the negativity. All they are basically doing is being negative to those that have shared their true feelings. smidge of hypocrisy there.

 

[rockatiel]

As a prevet/class of 2020 acceptee I have never felt discouraged from entering the field by anyone here. It has all been really good advice. I'm a first generation student so I didn't really have any mentors/advisors in this process. a lot of my information has come from here. Any job comes with difficulties and I'm glad to know what I'm getting myself into. I'll be honest-if I could see myself doing something else in life, I'd probably be doing it because of the debt. And I've told other friends IRL considering switching to vet med the same thing. And they may feel put off at first, but they thank me eventually. The vets here do love what they do, or they wouldn't be here mentoring prevets and warning them of the financial risks, the mental risks, any of it. Don't fault your colleagues for wanting to give advice-it's not a perfect profession. Nothing wrong with addressing the things that need fixing by the people that see it firsthand.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I have to say...it kind of makes me chuckle when people come online complaining about all the negativity. All they are basically doing is being negative to those that have shared their true feelings. smidge of hypocrisy there.

+1000

Why people can't share their experiences without crapping on other people's experiences, I don't get. Especially because in this case it's like kicking someone while they're down. Share your experiences, whatever they are. That's really important. They are all valid. But to make it seem like there must be something wrong with other people because their experience was different than yours is not cool.


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[WhtsThFrequency]

Yep

I've said this before (for clarity, I am not picking on the OP, just going off on a slight tangent) that I don't like the judgement that can occur when people say negative things, or even when they just complain.

There is an underlying culture in higher education, and particularly veterinary medicine, that you are supposed to just shut up, take it, and like it. People become used to being treated badly, or being unhappy, or stressed, and they begin to think well this is just how it is. We have to accept it. Almost like a form of Stockholm syndrome. And it can even turn into a sort of masochistic pride. I experienced this a LOT in my first lab, and the social pressure to not say anything negative (lest you become ostracized) is immense and extremely detrimental to your emotional and mental health. It is that type groupthink that leads to people who are struggling in work or school not want to seek help, because they think they shouldn't need it.

And later down the line, when people in the same situation share negative experiences or complain, these people try to shut them down or even outright attack them, implying that they don't really deserve to be there, or they can't cut it, they are just whining and it isn't that bad, or some variation of that. Usually because they don't like feeling like someone is challenging what has become their worldview.

I'm glad that most of the vets and students here have not fallen into that trap. We all seem to mostly be on the same page. Ironically a lot of the challenges to the negativity come from pre-vets or people with less experience. But I've heard similar sentiment even from people in the trenches who are trying to play ostrich.

 

[twelvetigers]

If you know what you are getting into and you have a plan to make it work for you, you will get 100% support.

If you don't like our honest feedback about our experiences, you will be advised to not let the door hit your rump on the way out.

I mean, if you look way back, you can see that any of us were at one time bight, cheerful, not-to-be-discouraged pre-vets. This is how we came out the other side. For better or for worse. And I don't think any of us hate it so much that we have left the field or anything like that, so...

 

[WildFlowerDVM]

Why? And define discourage.

I define discouraging as people saying to not enter the profession at all due to money or poor life work balance. I'm not really attacking any particular person here because I don't really know the vets on here or each of your individual stories. But in real life I work with several vets who are so hard on the pre-vets and often tell people not to enter the profession because it's a huge mistake etc. I am just trying to give my own personal perspective on it which is that it's not as bad as a lot of people say it is. Things are do-able. It is possible to not regret the decision to go to vet school. It's still a great profession with good jobs available. I am not the first person to notice or to write on the subject. It is a problem in veterinary medicine. Here are a few articles on it from vets who have noticed the problem and take a similar stance on the subject.

http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/a-vets-advice-about-careers-in-veterinary-medicine?page=2

http://www.drandyroark.com/tips-for-aspiring-vets-from-the-other-side-of-the-fence/


Is the problems in this profession real? Yes. There are problems in EVERY profession. No job or career is perfect. If you have the aspirations to go to vet school do it. I've already had a ton of people private message me with questions. They are valid questions and concerns about the first year out. So take the post as you want. It's just one personal experience. No reason to get all offended because it's important to be honest about the not so great parts of vet school like cost and stress. It's also important to tell people who have anxiety about vet school that you can make it and it's possible to get a job and be ok. I'm hoping the answers I have been providing people have been helpful. This post was mostly intended for people struggling with stress and the decision to enter the profession.

 

[DVMDream]

I define discouraging as people saying to not enter the profession at all due to money or poor life work balance.

No one here has ever told any to not enter the profession.

However, we do speak openly and honestly about the debt, the bad clients, the poor life work balance, etc. Yes, reality can suck, but just because it isn't what pre-vets "want" to hear, doesn't mean it isn't valid. Everyone has a different experience and opinion. I am glad you are doing great and enjoying yourself, but this:

Hello,
I have been off SDN since I was pre-vet 5 or so years ago. I have now almost finished my first year in a medium sized small animal practice. I have since visited SDN just to read up and I feel like the tone is kind of depressing towards pre-vet students and the veterinary career in general. I love my job in general practice and I know a lot of people are interested in small animal medicine. I struggled in vet school and in undergrad but if you would ask me if I would do it again to become a vet I would say absolutely yes. I have a great work life balance and the opportunities in vet med are extensive if you are willing to work for it. Being a new vet is hard but rewarding. If you are having anxiety about the career in general ask me anything! Its just one persons opinion and I am sure my situation is not true for all new grads. I encourage people to go to vet school and mentor a lot of pre-vets in my clinic. Some vets discourage people from entering the career which I don't necessarily agree with. I am just here to give my perspective as someone who does not regret my career and is happy with my choice on choosing to go to vet school.

Indicates that you don't like our personal experiences because they don't match with yours. If people you know are telling people not to go into vet med, they are clearly doing so for a reason and based upon their own opinion. Just because it doesn't match your opinion or idea on what vets should be doing doesn't make those opinions invalid. You are indicating here that those opinions that aren't all roses and daises and unicorn farts shouldn't be valid. Yes, we are a bit of a realistic bunch, but we have never nor have I ever (in the however many years I have been here) seen anyone tell someone to not go into veterinary medicine. We instead caution them to some of the struggles of the profession and then state if those don't turn you away or you can't see yourself doing anything else, then go for it.

And we do provide a lot of mentoring and good services here. We have a "what are my chances thread" where pre-vets can post stats and ask for any ways to improve their application. We have class threads for every class on here including for the current class applying. Pre-vets post questions and those who have gone through it answer those questions. I see second, third, fourth year students and graduated vets posting in the current first year class thread. I have received so much advice from the current class above me. We have a thread on just veterinary school resources. We have a thread that allows people to contact members to read over their personal statements for the application cycle. To come into SDN and see a few realistic posts about the profession that don't align with your roses/daises viewpoint and state that we are "depressing towards pre-vet students" and that you "mentor a lot of pre-vets" really minimizes and ignores the vast amount of good this forum does and has done for a many pre-vets that have come across these pages.

 

[WildFlowerDVM]

[QUOTE="DVMDream, post: 17640702, member: Indicates that you don't like our personal experiences because they don't match with yours. [/QUOTE]

Sorry it came across that way. Not my intention. You guys do a great job. Keep it up.

 

[LetItSnow]

Some vets discourage people from entering the career which I don't necessarily agree with.

I dunno. Your first line was a negative comment about posters specifically here on SDN ("I have since visited SDN just to read up and I feel like the tone is kind of depressing towards pre-vet students and the veterinary career in general.") but then you tried to backtrack and say in a follow-up that you weren't really talking about posters here at SDN. I don't buy the "I am just trying to give my own personal perspective on it which is that it's not as bad as a lot of people say it is" comment. It is exactly as bad as lot of people say it is .... AND it can be just as good as some other people, like yourself, say. Just because you've had a great experience doesn't mean other people haven't had a ****ty one.

I think it's great to share your positive experience. But you don't need to make between-the-lines comments about people who are sharing their negative experiences. We're just being realistic.

As for my first year ... shrug. Pluses and minuses. I make above first-year-avg (somewhere in the $100-110k range, but I could easily make less if I cut back or more if I took more shifts) with mostly reasonable benefits (decent health, dental, 401k after some period of time, DEA license if we want it, scrubs allowance, various memberships, VIN, CE budget, etc.). I work about half of the time with another ER doc on site in our busiest hospital, and about half the time alone. About one day/week I'm surrounded by specialists (IntMed, CC, Sx, Dentistry, primarily, and occasionally Neuro/Onco), from a separate practice that we are co-located with, which is a great learning opportunity for me. Even when I'm at one of our smaller hospitals working alone I still have 6-7 other doctors on-duty at our other hospitals who are just a phone call away and capable of looking at my medical record, lab reports, radiographs, and ultrasound images, if I'm dealing with something weird, new to me, or whatever.

About the biggest downside is the frickin' schedule: it's all over the map with the usual ER nights, weekends, holidays. I like getting to know the good clients, so I consider that a 'con' of this gig since I generally don't get to build that long-term relationship. The positive side of that, I suppose, is that the bad clients are gone fast, too. My salary has a down side, as well: it's not the kind of thing where I can go from an associate salary at a GP to the income of an owner with a moderate-to-very successful clinic. It gets complicated because we are paid differently depending on whether we're doing our "regular" shift, an internal "relief" shift, or what we call a "second doctor" shift, but the long and short is that my salary is starting a higher than average, but also won't grow very fast and ultimately, has a ceiling.

And, I dunno if I can really handle the exhaustion of ER work: I love the work, and my coworkers for the most part are awesome, but .... I may have to shift to a day job just to have a life where I'm not living in a perpetual state of exhaustion. I suppose like most other ER docs - I like what I do but wish I could do it 4 days/week for 10 hours/day during daylight hours.

Another big downside is no paid vacation. I really don't like the way the industry works for a lot of us where you can take time off ... you just don't make money. That's not vacation. In the rest of the professional white-collar world, people get paid vacation where they can take time off without worrying about the hit to their budget, or without feeling like they have to stack one month's worth of work days into three weeks so they can afford to take off a week. In a field where we're starting to understand that mental health is important, I think this is an issue that should start to change.

For me the single biggest downside to this profession is that it makes me not want to be around people. I'm an introvert. Interacting in our busy hospitals with staff, other doctors, referring doctors, clients..... by the time I leave work I don't want to see or talk to anyone. Ever. Again. And that kinda sucks for my family who, for reasons that remain inexplicable, actually seem to like me and want to spend time with me.

A negative to this field that is bigger than I anticipated is just how friggin' awful some doctors can be. I don't mean their medicine. I mean, I'm not naive - I know there are asshats in every profession in the world. But man does it seem like vet med has a pretty high percentage of DVMs who will happily throw their colleagues under the bus. We're a snide, back-stabbing, judgmental profession, and it sucks. I never saw this level of condescending judgmental attitudes in either of my former two professions. It blows. And it can be super discouraging. We all talk about how we KNOW that clients lie or misunderstand or whatever but .... what's the FIRST thing that happens when I see some client, and they later tell their regular vet that I did or didn't do X? The vet calls up and complains about "that damn ER vet blah blah blah." Never mind if my record - that is emailed and/or faxed to the RDVM - clearly shows I tried to offer X to their client; they just take their client at their word. Even though we all know better. It's .... friggin' amazing.

If I could do everything again I think I might a) go into this when I'm young enough for a residency, and then b) pursue something like a radiology residency where I could angle myself for a teleradiology gig and sit at home in my underwear with a beer reading radiographs for ER docs like me who are too busy and too tired to read them ourselves. You really start to pine for that when your front desk people tell you "Hey, Dr. LIS, the radiologist is on line 2 for you" and you pick up the phone and the radiologist says "Hey there Dr. LIS, I feel like I've talked to you a lot today!"

Sigh.

I did an end-of-shift pericardiocentesis yesterday on a dog that came in looking like you'd expect a dog with a crap ton of fluid around its heart. It left with a bounce in its step and a short life expectancy from the hemangiosarcoma. Nevertheless, I usually find those satisfying because hey, the owners have a dog that looks like it's dying, and it leaves feeling pretty damn good and they get to plan the end-of-life and spend some quality time feeding cheeseburgers and otherwise spoiling their dog. Yesterday I stuck the thing, drained 250ml of blood, watched it leave, and I felt absolutely no satisfaction. Too busy, too tired.

Anyway. That was a ridiculously long response. @WildFlowerDVM I think it is great to share the positives. I'm glad you're enjoying practice. Just don't come down on people who are making sure pre-vets at least have their eyes opened to the negatives: that's doing them a service, not "discouraging" them. I'm glad you are posting positive comments to help keep it balanced.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Another big downside is no paid vacation. I really don't like the way the industry works for a lot of us where you can take time off ... you just don't make money. That's not vacation. In the rest of the professional white-collar world, people get paid vacation where they can take time off without worrying about the hit to their budget, or without feeling like they have to stack one month's worth of work days into three weeks so they can afford to take off a week. In a field where we're starting to understand that mental health is important, I think this is an issue that should start to change.

Ugh, tell me about it. The great thing about production pay is that I'm paid for the amount of work I do. It's awesome
to get that $3000 bonus check at the end of an exhausting month. But it also means I can't ever take any time off. I wish that "paid vacation" actually meant that they actually pretend like you earned enough to meet production during the time you were gone so you didn't get penalized for taking vacation. Not only do I miss production pay (which is to be expected if you're not working), I end up "owing" $~1700 per week that I take vacation on. I can't afford that.

For me the single biggest downside to this profession is that it makes me not want to be around people. I'm an introvert. Interacting in our busy hospitals with staff, other doctors, referring doctors, clients..... by the time I leave work I don't want to see or talk to anyone. Ever. Again. And that kinda sucks for my family who, for reasons that remain inexplicable, actually seem to like me and want to spend time with me.

I actually said the same exact thing this week to my two closest friends from college. I have 0 desire to meet and mingle with people because to me, carrying on any kind of conversation with anyone but my favoritest people in the world is such a chore after a full week of being forced to converse with people and pretending to be interested while putting on this sickeningly sweet and happy persona. In my non "vet" time, I just want to prance around naked in my apt with my cat and just have the freedom to say or not say whatever the hell comes to mind.


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[that redhead]

I did an end-of-shift pericardiocentesis yesterday on a dog that came in looking like you'd expect a dog with a crap ton of fluid around its heart. It left with a bounce in its step and a short life expectancy from the hemangiosarcoma. Nevertheless, I usually find those satisfying because hey, the owners have a dog that looks like it's dying, and it leaves feeling pretty damn good and they get to plan the end-of-life and spend some quality time feeding cheeseburgers and otherwise spoiling their dog. Yesterday I stuck the thing, drained 250ml of blood, watched it leave, and I felt absolutely no satisfaction. Too busy, too tired

I'm sorry LIS

 

[dyachei]

I define discouraging as people saying to not enter the profession at all due to money or poor life work balance. I'm not really attacking any particular person here because I don't really know the vets on here or each of your individual stories. But in real life I work with several vets who are so hard on the pre-vets and often tell people not to enter the profession because it's a huge mistake etc. I am just trying to give my own personal perspective on it which is that it's not as bad as a lot of people say it is. Things are do-able. It is possible to not regret the decision to go to vet school. It's still a great profession with good jobs available. I am not the first person to notice or to write on the subject. It is a problem in veterinary medicine. Here are a few articles on it from vets who have noticed the problem and take a similar stance on the subject.

http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/a-vets-advice-about-careers-in-veterinary-medicine?page=2

http://www.drandyroark.com/tips-for-aspiring-vets-from-the-other-side-of-the-fence/


Is the problems in this profession real? Yes. There are problems in EVERY profession. No job or career is perfect. If you have the aspirations to go to vet school do it. I've already had a ton of people private message me with questions. They are valid questions and concerns about the first year out. So take the post as you want. It's just one personal experience. No reason to get all offended because it's important to be honest about the not so great parts of vet school like cost and stress. It's also important to tell people who have anxiety about vet school that you can make it and it's possible to get a job and be ok. I'm hoping the answers I have been providing people have been helpful. This post was mostly intended for people struggling with stress and the decision to enter the profession.

Those articles you quoted said not to trample on ambition. That's not what happens here. We ask users to honestly evaluate what their ambitions are. Do they really want to be a vet? Or do they just see it as the inevitable endpoint so they can work with animals all day? Is their ambition just to get a higher education degree like a PhD, DVM, MD? I mean, these are things most pre-vets may not have considered.

There's so much more to "ambition" than this one degree. that's a very, very specific ambition.

 

[CynicKitten]

For what it's worth, I agree about the tone of the website. For me, it often comes of as rude, rather than helpful. To me, there is a definite way to say something in a helpful tone, and a different way to say the same thing in a rude tone - it's about making a conscious effort to use the former. Thanks for the post! I am sure people will find it helpful!

 

[Coquette22]

For what it's worth, I agree about the tone of the website. For me, it often comes of as rude, rather than helpful. To me, there is a definite way to say something in a helpful tone, and a different way to say the same thing in a rude tone - it's about making a conscious effort to use the former. Thanks for the post! I am sure people will find it helpful!

I think because a) people don't use the search function, so we answer the same 8 questions continually ("What should I major in", "I got a W, am I going to die?", "Which school is best for blue-eyed-green-haired-monkey medicine?", etc), b) pre-vets often argue with us more experienced students/practicing vets("But, really I don't care about the money, it's different with me!!"). So threads often start out helpful, and then often devolve into some sarcasm and eye-rolling on our part.

 

[flameshock]

I think because a) people don't use the search function, so we answer the same 8 questions continually ("What should I major in", "I got a W, am I going to die?", "Which school is best for blue-eyed-green-haired-monkey medicine?", etc), b) pre-vets often argue with us more experienced students/practicing vets("But, really I don't care about the money, it's different with me!!"). So threads often start out helpful, and then often devolve into some sarcasm and eye-rolling on our part.

I think there's also a tonal shift between these two demographics. Certainly, interpretation is up in the air on the Internet, but I do think there can be a general view of 'this wasn't cheerful support, so it was rude' taken by the pre-vet side. A lack of exclamation marks and emoji doesn't necessarily mean a lack of helpfulness (or useful information) in a reply.

I've only been on these forums since January but I had noticed the dichotomy before this thread. I think it's interesting to watch, personally.

 

[DVMDream]

For what it's worth, I agree about the tone of the website. For me, it often comes of as rude, rather than helpful. To me, there is a definite way to say something in a helpful tone, and a different way to say the same thing in a rude tone - it's about making a conscious effort to use the former. Thanks for the post! I am sure people will find it helpful!

Helpful tips (that will seem "rude" but is actually going to be necessary for both vet school and life after vet school):

1. Thicker skin. People say things in a way that may not be very "nice" and it happens often. Especially in vet school and especially clients. You have to have some ability to kind of be like a duck is to water and allow the "not nice" things to just slid off your back. Having stated that, most people here are never outright blatantly mean.

2. Read with positive intent. This is the internet. Tone doesn't come across well over the internet and in writing. You need to assume positive intent. Instead of instantly thinking "OMG! That was so rude. They could have said that more nicely" Stop for a moment and really consider what that person is saying. Their tone may not have intended to come across as "harsh" because it is the internet and instead consider the content and meaning of what that poster is saying. If the content is helpful and guiding (which I can guarantee that most of the time when pre-vets whine we are being "mean" they are missing the actual helpfulness in the post because they get so wrapped up in "ugh, but you could have been nicer in the way you posted that) then the poster was likely intending to be helpful and guiding and you are most likely misreading their tone.

3. Life doesn't get served on a silver platter with cookies and unicorn rainbow ice cream. There is a fine distinction between reality and negativity. I can't tell you how many times we get told over and over by pre-vets because we give honest answers to questions on debt, income, school, life in vet school, admissions, etc... that we need to "GTFO out of 'their' pre-vet forum and go use our vet forums". That helps exactly no one. Trust me, we all understand that moment of being the starry-eyed pre-vet who is just excited for and anticipating veterinary school, we have been there. Many of us are now out on the other side of that and understand the realities of vet school, debt, the profession, etc. We are passing on what we know to the next group of pre-vet students. Yes, I get it, many of it sounds bad, because, again, life sucks and so does reality. The only question that remains to be answered is,.. Are you going to roll your eyes, decide that the realities of this profession won't apply to you, stomp your feet that we are "negative", "don't understand" and "should GTFO" and then continue about your merry way with rose-colored glasses or are you going to take our advice to heart, consider everything that occurs in vet med (both the good and bad) and make an informed decision about your future?

4. I can guarantee that if you messaged any regular on this forum and wanted an open-ended, 100% honest opinion on the veterinary profession, they would quite willing give you that opinion. I can also guarantee that every member (OP included) would have both good and bad things to say about vet med. That is the nature of any profession. I can also guarantee that no one here would tell you "don't go to vet school". Myself included and I can be a cynical bastard. You have to make a decision that is right for you and all I can do is say "this is my opinion based on my experiences so far". Some of it is going to leave a bad taste in your mouth, some of it might make you excited about vet med. But realism does not equal negativity and for some reason over the recent years that has been a difficult thing to get pre-vets to comprehend.

 

[twelvetigers]

Hey, I get paid vacation! I leave at 5pm pretty much every day, sometimes earlier! I get Tuesdays off! I also get paid less than $50k a year. So.

Whatever you think it will be like, 90% of the time, it ain't like that.

 

[DVMDream]

I also get paid less than $50k a year. So.

Ouch.

 

[twelvetigers]

Ouch.

If it wasn't for husband, I'd be living under a bridge.

No, I could probably find something thatp aid better, esp if I did corporate. I just... kinda don't want to. I will eventually, if things don't pick up.

 

[DVMDream]

If it wasn't for husband, I'd be living under a bridge.

No, I could probably find something thatp aid better, esp if I did corporate. I just... kinda don't want to. I will eventually, if things don't pick up.

Yeah. I hear varying things about corporate. Both good and bad. Just like everything else.

I am going to most likely have a very hard decision to make here next week with picking my first job.

Also, a word of advice to pre-vets: Vet med is a very small world. Don't burn bridges.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

I also get paid less than $50k a year.

Lies, you Porsche driving, mansion owning veterinarian.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I can think of many times where, from the POV of a self-labeled sarcastic a**, a post was written that was past the point of sarcasm and not deserving of that kind of response. I can also think of times where someone has said "That was mean!" to the same person and I've felt pretty strongly that it was misinterpreted by the offended.

I can also think instances revealed to me in confidence in which someone has felt authoritative enough to tell/imply to a pre-vet via PM that he/she is an idiot or will make a bad doctor. To me, that is absolutely absurd and shouldn't be happening. Completely ridiculous. It's the imagined authority some people exert that annoys me the most. I've also seen it come from pre-vet posters as well (judging a doctor's decision in the rant thread, for example). I usually just ignore it because it doesn't affect me, but when I see it, it's hard to resist getting involved. It's fun to read the bickering and fighting, but it's very time consuming to actually participate in it

 

[LetItSnow]

I think there's also a tonal shift between these two demographics. Certainly, interpretation is up in the air on the Internet, but I do think there can be a general view of 'this wasn't cheerful support, so it was rude' taken by the pre-vet side.

I think it is even a bit more than "that wasn't cheerful" .... There is a whole lot of "that wasn't what I wanted to hear, so I'm going to call it rude". Most of the "that was rude" seems to happen when someone who actually has experience corrects someone's naive impression or assumptions about vet med.

Pre-vet: "Money doesn't matter! I HAVE to go to school X that costs 3 times my IS because I loved my visit there!"

Vet (student): "Future you will be sad that current you put so much priority on which school to go to, and so little on money."

Pre-vet: "OMG!! So rude! How dare you trample on my dream!"

Vet (student): *sigh*

 

[DVMDream]

I can also think instances revealed to me in confidence in which someone has felt authoritative enough to tell/imply to a pre-vet via PM that he/she is an idiot or will make a bad doctor. To me, that is absolutely absurd and shouldn't be happening. Completely ridiculous.

If this is happening, the person receiving these private messages, should be reporting them. However, I get this feeling you are getting a one-sided "so and so stated this and how rude". I don't know any of the more regular posters (and I know a lot of them personally) who would take the time to 1. PM a pre-vet unsolicited and 2. Tell them they are an idiot and will make a bad doctor.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

If this is happening, the person receiving these private messages, should be reporting them. However, I get this feeling you are getting a one-sided "so and so stated this and how rude". I don't know any of the more regular posters (and I know a lot of them personally) who would take the time to 1. PM a pre-vet unsolicited and 2. Tell them they are an idiot and will make a bad doctor.

I agree that it is told from only one person involved, but without going into much detail, I know what was said. I agree that reporting should happen, but some people are very hesitant to do that because they feel they will be picked on further (whether or not being picked on is being "thin skinned"). This forum has a very high-school feel to it sometimes. I say just block someone you really don't like to see pop up on your screen. Problem solved.

 

[flameshock]

I think it is even a bit more than "that wasn't cheerful" .... There is a whole lot of "that wasn't what I wanted to hear, so I'm going to call it rude". Most of the "that was rude" seems to happen when someone who actually has experience corrects someone's naive impression or assumptions about vet med.

Pre-vet: "Money doesn't matter! I HAVE to go to school X that costs 3 times my IS because I loved my visit there!"

Vet (student): "Future you will be sad that current you put so much priority on which school to go to, and so little on money."

Pre-vet: "OMG!! So rude! How dare you trample on my dream!"

Vet (student): *sigh*

Personally, I've been very grateful for the cold water-like splash of reality the vet side of the forums provided. That didn't mean I enjoyed hearing it when it contradicted my goals/plans/expectations...but data is important and those personal experiences are incredibly valuable for predicting what my own outcomes will be. Even if it isn't sunshine and puppies.

I was sad when I turned down a school I really loved to go to my instate choice. Now, however, I'm comfortable that it was a good choice, and puts me in a better financial position later in life. I don't think I would have made the decision I did without the SDN input.

 

[DVMDream]

I agree that it is told from only one person involved, but without going into much detail, I know what was said. I agree that reporting should happen, but some people are very hesitant to do that because they feel they will be picked on further (whether or not being picked on is being "thin skinned"). This forum has a very high-school feel to it sometimes. I say just block someone you really don't like to see pop up on your screen. Problem solved.

People don't get "picked on" for reporting things. And you can help to not back up that feeling by recommending them to report and stating they won't get picked on for it. Instead of telling them to block people.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I will fully admit that I can be "rude" sometimes. However, it is never borne out of malignancy. And even the people I may act difficult towards, it isn't out of lack of caring. In fact, it is usually the opposite.

Perhaps it is who I trained under, who was one of the most curmudgeongly yet most caring pathologists I have ever met, who had trained under an even more curmudgeonly and caring pathologist who was one of the best in the history of the entire profession and who, sadly, passed recently. He had no qualms about telling us that we gave a stupid answer to a question. He made more than a few of us cry on multiple occasions. But he gave a ****. I remember in my first week of residency, when I had just moved 1200 miles away from everything I had ever known, left my family, my SO, everything behind, completely alone, he came up to my in my office and went "Dr. WTF, would you like to have fourth of July dinner with my family and I?" Things like that. He pushed us because he cared. Not just about our education, but forming us as solid, brave people who could stand up to scrutiny and give as good as we got, people who didn't fold under pressure, people who weren't afraid to give their honest opinion in a straightforward and even aggressive manner if warranted, to not hide behind excessive propriety which can, in many cases, water down the importance of what you are trying to get across.

He taught me to question and challenge everything, and to not be shy about it. I learned that if I think someone is doing something or saying something stupid or naive, I am damn well going to tell them because if I pussyfoot around it they are going to continue being stupid and/or naive. And I welcome them challenging me back. Of course, you can't walk around being a jerk to everyone. But there is something to be said for brutal honesty. It doesn't mean people don't care. In many cases, it means the opposite.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Personally, I've been very grateful for the cold water-like splash of reality the vet side of the forums provided. That didn't mean I enjoyed hearing it when it contradicted my goals/plans/expectations...but data is important and those personal experiences are incredibly valuable for predicting what my own outcomes will be. Even if it isn't sunshine and puppies.

I was sad when I turned down a school I really loved to go to my instate choice. Now, however, I'm comfortable that it was a good choice, and puts me in a better financial position later in life. I don't think I would have made the decision I did without the SDN input.

I feel like I know a lot of people who either needed SDN or to at least take off their rose-colored glasses. There are a lot of my classmates who turned down IS/contract seats to attend Illinois. And now I'm seeing several on this thread alone turning down IS seats to go elsewhere. I don't think I ever get over the shock of that. I would have cleaned the entire school with my toothbrush to get into my IS. Not a single day goes by where I think about my debt.

Edit: Sorry, meant forum

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

If this is happening, the person receiving these private messages, should be reporting them. However, I get this feeling you are getting a one-sided "so and so stated this and how rude". I don't know any of the more regular posters (and I know a lot of them personally) who would take the time to 1. PM a pre-vet unsolicited and 2. Tell them they are an idiot and will make a bad doctor.

Agreed. I may bust people's balls but I wouldn't harangue them over PM telling them they will be bad doctors. That's childish. Of course, we are only hearing one side of the story here. I have told a student before that he was going to be a terrible vet if he kept acting the way he did, and it was true. But I would never tell someone that simply because they are naive. We all were at some point (and still are in many ways - you'll never figure life out completely).

 

[DVMDream]

Agreed. I may bust people's balls but I wouldn't harangue them over PM telling them they will be bad doctors. That's childish.

I was going to say... I think most of us regulars are more than fine bursting people's dreams well out in public...

 

[dyachei]

People who report things don't get any backlash. If they do and report that as well, the offender will be further penalized.

I think sometimes people internalize what they think she being said between the lines. You know what they say about assuming...

 

[rockatiel]

I would have cleaned the entire school with my toothbrush to get into my IS.

Do you think of I made a special trip to LSU today they'd take me off the waitlist?

 

[rockatiel]

This does frighten me though because a vet I worked with was a very recent grad and she keeps telling me to stop worrying about debt, and it's not a big deal. Even when I told her I had to go OOS she said that. I mean it's relieving to hear, but I know it's not good advice.

 

[twelvetigers]

Go here:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/premedical-student-glossary/

And scroll down to "Burnett's Law" and read what it says.

It's a product of the forums more than a product of the specific people here. It happens in other sections too.

 

[twelvetigers]

Lies, you Porsche driving, mansion owning veterinarian.

I drive a Hyundai. I do live in a nice house, but my husband makes 3-4x what I do...

And my loans are NOT $300k like the poor person that posted after me, they aren't even $100k. So that makes a HUGE difference in my ability to 'settle'.

And FWIW things haven't quite gone as planned as far as business goes, so I didn't sign up for poverty wages permanently. It's just not worked out as expected.

 

[DVMDream]

This does frighten me though because a vet I worked with was a very recent grad and she keeps telling me to stop worrying about debt, and it's not a big deal. Even when I told her I had to go OOS she said that. I mean it's relieving to hear, but I know it's not good advice.

I mean, it is really going to depend on each individual person, their debt level and their living situation.

Let's put it this way... I have over $300K in debt. I just checked the exact amount last night because I am a glutton for punishment. On the federal loan website there is a way to input your income and some other things in order for them to show you what your payments would be...

If I wanted to do a straight up standard 10 year repayment plan, my loan payment would be: $3,888 per month. That is laughable. Not going to happen

A straight forward 25 year repayment plan, my loan payment would be: $2,328 per month. Again, laughable

Now there are some graduated plans... both 10 year and 25 year, you start off paying a lower amount per month and increase every 2 years or so as you pay back the loan..

10 year graduated for first month: $2,239 they estimate the final payment would go up to: $6,717 ( )
25 year graduated for first month: $1,884 estimate of final payment: $3,357

Now, for income based repayment...

$852 per month (based on what I put in as my current estimated salary, my salary should increase so this amount will increase).

There are some other income based/pay as you earn options that vary from $568/month to $1,235/month...

Now, this goes to show how much this can vary... given a current job offer I have... I could make that 10 year repayment IF I spend <$500 on living expenses and live with someone for basically free for 10 years. You can see how if I had an SO who could pay other bills, I could be fine. As long as he can continue to pay everything else (mortgage, car, electricity, etc) and I dump nearly my entire income into my loans, they could be gone in 10 years.

However, I don't have an SO and I can't live for free for 10 years... that sticks me into this range of.... well, that 25 year repayment plan is going to be squeezing me tight. As in, I would have no savings at the end of each month. However, loans would be paid off and I wouldn't have to worry about that income tax on a forgiven amount. However, if I ever want to own a home (which I do)... placing myself on this plan would instantly disqualify me from a home loan.

So, we look at IBR, I can set myself up to be on IBR, pay that amount for a little bit as I get comfortable with how much I am making and how to go about directing my money to different resources. I would also then be able to qualify for a home loan. The thing about this, is that I can vary how much I pay... I can pay that minimum of $850/month or I can bump it up to $1500 one month, if I have the means.

Now, this is just based upon my needs and knowing different offers I have, benefits I am being offered and including any other expenses that aren't being covered by my employer that I would need to pay.

It varies so much based upon so many factors. An SO who could pay for living expenses can make a HUGE difference, heck it makes me want a sugar daddy (sometimes). Getting a salary of $90K sounds great, but if you have zero benefits... once you add in health insurance, DEA (~$700), State license ($400 for me), membership dues, VIN, CE, PLI, etc... you might as well take that $75K job that will pay for all of those things. Especially since the income tax on $90K is much more than on $75K...

It really just depends on each person, their exact loan amount, their income, etc...

And it looks great to see that "oh look, with IBR you can make payments, probably buy a house, etc" however... the tax on that amount forgiven is >$300K.... I won't be able to save up over $300K in 25 years while paying all the other bills that need to be paid. So IBR can make things look nice and will make you comfortable as you figure things out, but it isn't a solution.

 

[rockatiel]

I mean, it is really going to depend on each individual person, their debt level and their living situation.

Let's put it this way... I have over $300K in debt. I just checked the exact amount last night because I am a glutton for punishment. On the federal loan website there is a way to input your income and some other things in order for them to show you what your payments would be...

If I wanted to do a straight up standard 10 year repayment plan, my loan payment would be: $3,888 per month. That is laughable. Not going to happen

A straight forward 25 year repayment plan, my loan payment would be: $2,328 per month. Again, laughable

Now there are some graduated plans... both 10 year and 25 year, you start off paying a lower amount per month and increase every 2 years or so as you pay back the loan..

10 year graduated for first month: $2,239 they estimate the final payment would go up to: $6,717 ( )
25 year graduated for first month: $1,884 estimate of final payment: $3,357

Now, for income based repayment...

$852 per month (based on what I put in as my current estimated salary, my salary should increase so this amount will increase).

There are some other income based/pay as you earn options that vary from $568/month to $1,235/month...

Now, this goes to show how much this can vary... given a current job offer I have... I could make that 10 year repayment IF I spend <$500 on living expenses and live with someone for basically free for 10 years. You can see how if I had an SO who could pay other bills, I could be fine. As long as he can continue to pay everything else (mortgage, car, electricity, etc) and I dump nearly my entire income into my loans, they could be gone in 10 years.

However, I don't have an SO and I can't live for free for 10 years... that sticks me into this range of.... well, that 25 year repayment plan is going to be squeezing me tight. As in, I would have no savings at the end of each month. However, loans would be paid off and I wouldn't have to worry about that income tax on a forgiven amount. However, if I ever want to own a home (which I do)... placing myself on this plan would instantly disqualify me from a home loan.

So, we look at IBR, I can set myself up to be on IBR, pay that amount for a little bit as I get comfortable with how much I am making and how to go about directing my money to different resources. I would also then be able to qualify for a home loan. The thing about this, is that I can vary how much I pay... I can pay that minimum of $850/month or I can bump it up to $1500 one month, if I have the means.

Now, this is just based upon my needs and knowing different offers I have, benefits I am being offered and including any other expenses that aren't being covered by my employer that I would need to pay.

It varies so much based upon so many factors. An SO who could pay for living expenses can make a HUGE difference, heck it makes me want a sugar daddy (sometimes). Getting a salary of $90K sounds great, but if you have zero benefits... once you add in health insurance, DEA (~$700), State license ($400 for me), membership dues, VIN, CE, PLI, etc... you might as well take that $75K job that will pay for all of those things. Especially since the income tax on $90K is much more than on $75K...

It really just depends on each person, their exact loan amount, their income, etc...

And it looks great to see that "oh look, with IBR you can make payments, probably buy a house, etc" however... the tax on that amount forgiven is >$300K.... I won't be able to save up over $300K in 25 years while paying all the other bills that need to be paid. So IBR can make things look nice and will make you comfortable as you figure things out, but it isn't a solution.

when I crunched the numbers, with around a $204k tuition before interest on forgiveness plans, my monthly payment would be around the $2000 range if I remember correctly. Of course IBR seemed much more doable in the short term, sadly I think about the having an SO thing all. The. Time. I have always been so independent, and I really, really don't want to change that. And for that I sometimes wish I was wired differently lol.

 

[that redhead]

People from all walks come through this forum, and they're drawn here because they need help getting into school. And that's the foundation of SDN - helping one another understand the process and achieve the goal. But once we've reached that point, we realize we really appreciated the camaraderie among the vast majority of people here. And we build friendships and actually care about each others' lives. And we stick around because we remember just how important that support was when we were slogging through applications, and then school and now the real world and we want to pass that on. Sometimes we're cranky because it's tough to see bright-eyed and bushy-tailed pre-vets who act as though they already know what we've been through and poo-poo on the input we feel is worth something because we've run the gamut. We're sincerely trying to help.

 

[LetItSnow]

Sometimes we're cranky because it's tough to see bright-eyed and bushy-tailed pre-vets who act as though they already know what we've been through and poo-poo on the input we feel is worth something because we've run the gamut.

Honestly, it is a lot like going into an exam room and listening to the owner reject your dx and/or tx recommendations because their aunt knows someone from the dog park whose groomer recommended that they just use coconut oil and warned them not to trust that overpriced greedy vet who will try to sell them on unnecessary diagnostics.

 

[that redhead]

Honestly, it is a lot like going into an exam room and listening to the owner reject your dx and/or tx recommendations because their aunt knows someone from the dog park whose groomer recommended that they just use coconut oil.....

I was going to make a similar reference

 

[Minnerbelle]

I can also think instances revealed to me in confidence in which someone has felt authoritative enough to tell/imply to a pre-vet via PM that he/she is an idiot or will make a bad doctor. To me, that is absolutely absurd and shouldn't be happening. Completely ridiculous. It's the imagined authority some people exert that annoys me the most.

Way to take the actions of one aberrant dingus and make it seem like it applies to a whole group of people.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[cdo96]

Honestly, it is a lot like going into an exam room and listening to the owner reject your dx and/or tx recommendations because their aunt knows someone from the dog park whose groomer recommended that they just use coconut oil and warned them not to trust that overpriced greedy vet who will try to sell them on unnecessary diagnostics.

Ugh. Don't even get me started on friend/ internet recommendations.

Last summer, I had a massively obese pug come in with a grade 5 heart murmur, a grapefruit sized abscess, and a cough that would cause the dog to pass out.
The owners gave the dog a mixture of Children's Robitissun and honey for the cough, and a penicillin shot with a dirty needle (but they had to stick the dog 7 times to actually get the syringe to work).
I still feel so bad for that dog.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[rockatiel]

Ugh. Don't even get me started on friend/ internet recommendations.

Last summer, I had a massively obese pug come in with a grade 5 heart murmur, a grapefruit sized abscess, and a cough that would cause the dog to pass out.
The owners gave the dog a mixture of Children's Robitissun and honey for the cough, and a penicillin shot with a dirty needle (but they had to stick the dog 7 times to actually get the syringe to work).
I still feel so bad for that dog.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Oh my god. I love puggies, I grew up with one!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Way to take the actions of one aberrant dingus and make it seem like it applies to a whole group of people.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I say that there there are occurrences of nonsense that have happened that give validity to the OP's statement, and you say something like this. Never did I say it was everyone. If I wanted to say everyone, I would have.