Ask a neurosurgery resident anything

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Neusu, Thank you so much for your wisdom. I have a few questions. I am currently in a 6 yr BA/MD program at UMKC and am in the second year of medical school. My heart is set on neurosurgery and I have shadowed many surgeons, done research in the field and absolutely love it. In all honesty, I really wish I loved something else but I can't see myself doing anything else besides NSG. The thing is, my school has a cumulative science GPA from the first of 6 years that help determine AOA and stuff like that (but ofc rotations and ECs and Boards end up playing a role too). I used to have a 4.0 throughout my first year but because of some recent deaths and turbulence , I have gotten three Cs and two Bs in the middle of my schooling. If I have picked it up since then, and continued to get As throughout the rest of my medical classes and get High-Honors Pass on rotation and do well on Boards/research, do I have a shot? Or will those three Cs and two Bs that I got a long time ago immediately disqualify me? Also how important is AOA? Is there anything more I can do to help make up for those previous bad grades?

I don't have a lot of experience with applicants from a 6-year BA/MD program. In general, pre-clinical grades are not that strongly held unless you have to repeat a course. There are some who feel you'll be to young and immature to handle it. Keep working hard and put all the pieces in place that you can, as you mentioned, such as a good board score and research.

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Piggybacking off the previous question, is AOA pretty much a must to match? Or could a great step score and research make up for it? Although from what I hear, is it possible that a good enough step score for neurosurgery usually helps with AOA anyway?
 
Also speaking of step - reminder to please share how you studied for it, if you ever get a chance.
 
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Piggybacking off the previous question, is AOA pretty much a must to match? Or could a great step score and research make up for it? Although from what I hear, is it possible that a good enough step score for neurosurgery usually helps with AOA anyway?

According to Charting the Outcomes 2016, only about 33% of seniors who matched NSG were AOA. 60% of NSG PD's cited AOA as a factor for consideration for interview and its importance was ranked as 4.0/5.0 on average. To contrast Step 1 and LORs were cited 93 and 97% of the time with average importance ratings of 4.6 and 4.8, respectively. When asked to do the same for ranking applicants to match, AOA was cited as a factor 43% of the time with an importance of 3.9/5.0, way behind personal factors like performance at the interview, opinions of current residents and housestaff and LORs.
 
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According to Charting the Outcomes 2016, only about 33% of seniors who matched NSG were AOA. 60% of NSG PD's cited AOA as a factor for consideration for interview and its importance was ranked as 4.0/5.0 on average. To contrast Step 1 and LORs were cited 93 and 97% of the time with average importance ratings of 4.6 and 4.8, respectively. When asked to do the same for ranking applicants to match, AOA was cited as a factor 43% of the time with an importance of 3.9/5.0, way behind personal factors like performance at the interview, opinions of current residents and housestaff and LORs.
The stats they keep track of/you guys can find amazes me every day. Awesome.
 
According to Charting the Outcomes 2016, only about 33% of seniors who matched NSG were AOA. 60% of NSG PD's cited AOA as a factor for consideration for interview and its importance was ranked as 4.0/5.0 on average. To contrast Step 1 and LORs were cited 93 and 97% of the time with average importance ratings of 4.6 and 4.8, respectively. When asked to do the same for ranking applicants to match, AOA was cited as a factor 43% of the time with an importance of 3.9/5.0, way behind personal factors like performance at the interview, opinions of current residents and housestaff and LORs.

Great find, thanks for the help.
 
  1. Do you ever work with engineers or computer scientists to develop new technology?
  2. Is there a larger risk for being sued as a neurosurgeon?
  3. How different is neurology vs neurosurgery residencies? Timeline and experiences?
  4. Do you consult with neuroradiologists?
- a soon to be medical student curious about the field
 
This might be a stupid question. What are you thoughts on the efficacy questions surrounding spine procedures. Do you think this will ultimately lead to payors reigning in volumes? Where do you think NSG will shift if spine is greatly reduced?

This is a highly debated topic. There are numerous procedures we do, with myriad indications. Anectdotally, many of them do seem to work.

So far as I'm concerned, back pain is simply part of life. When it gets to the point it is debilitating, significantly impacting the quality of life, or there are focal neurological deficits (e.g. weakness), then a surgical intervention should be considered.

Neurosurgeons are human, and motivated by the same thing most are. If spine suddenly lost reimbursement, I suspect it would be far less common.
 
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Piggybacking off the previous question, is AOA pretty much a must to match? Or could a great step score and research make up for it? Although from what I hear, is it possible that a good enough step score for neurosurgery usually helps with AOA anyway?

It looks like 13% of those who matched in 2016 were AOA http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf On the Program Director Survey, of the 55 who replied, it rated a 3.8 for importance as a selection criteria, behind Step 1, Step 2, letters, clerkship grades, and class rank http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

I don't think it's important. Many schools do not have it. It is a nice accolade, if available, and you earn it. That being said, not earning it is not a big deal.
 
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I know you've answered a lot of questions related to research dating back years, but I have another pretty specific one.

I'll be starting at an MSTP this year and I've been going back and forth a lot on my long-term goals. I feel strongly that I want to go into neurosurgery and my basic scientific interest is in neural circuits - essentially studying the computations they perform to give rise to memory, decision making, perception, etc, and how can we manipulate them to fix disorders. This kind of interest seems to align more with labs that focus on the more psychiatric side of things. However, the path I desire more is perhaps one where I could be more hands on and pursue a specialization in something like functional neurosurgery to contribute to the growing field of circuit-level brain interventions and also technology like DBS and BMIs. It seems that the common type of research that those pursuing neurosurgery do in med school involves specific neurological disease, or sides heavily on the molecular/cellular side of neurology (in which i have pretty low scientific experience or interest). I'm not sure if this is just because functional neurosurgery is just a small subset of neurosurgery in general.

Is my perception of research accurate? I know you say that just doing research is most important, but would a PhD with a basic neuroscience lab that focuses on neural circuit function vs. a lab that studies molecular/cellular mechanisms associated with neurological disorders put me at a disadvantage relative to other applicants (perhaps because it would make it seem like I want to be a psychiatrist or neurologist and don't know what I'm getting into)? Should I try to supplement this thesis research by also working with a researching neurosurgeon at my institution? Am I wrong for wanting to pursue neurosurgery?

Thanks and sorry if this post comes off as a little neurotic.
 
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The stats they keep track of/you guys can find amazes me every day. Awesome.

I tend to like data, so naturally keeping track of what is where helps. I wish ERAS/NRMP would give me the raw data so I could look for meaningful relationships.
 
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  1. Do you ever work with engineers or computer scientists to develop new technology?
  2. Is there a larger risk for being sued as a neurosurgeon?
  3. How different is neurology vs neurosurgery residencies? Timeline and experiences?
  4. Do you consult with neuroradiologists?
- a soon to be medical student curious about the field

1) All of the time.
2) All MDs have a risk of being sued. The general saying is not if, but when. Neurosurgeons tend to have a rather profound impact on their patients' lives, so this plays a role in the suit.
3) Neurology is 4 years, neurosurgery is 7. Neurosurgery is surgical intervention in neuological disorders whereas neurology is diagnosis and medical treatment of the same. The are about as similar as internal medicine and general surgery.
4) We do consult with neuoradiologists. They read every brain and spine image that we obtain. When we have a specific question, we'll often discuss this in particular with them.
 
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I know you've answered a lot of questions related to research dating back years, but I have another pretty specific one.

I'll be starting at an MSTP this year and I've been going back and forth a lot on my long-term goals. I feel strongly that I want to go into neurosurgery and my basic scientific interest is in neural circuits - essentially studying the computations they perform to give rise to memory, decision making, perception, etc, and how can we manipulate them to fix disorders. This kind of interest seems to align more with labs that focus on the more psychiatric side of things. However, the path I desire more is perhaps one where I could be more hands on and pursue a specialization in something like functional neurosurgery to contribute to the growing field of circuit-level brain interventions and also technology like DBS and BMIs. It seems that the common type of research that those pursuing neurosurgery do in med school involves specific neurological disease, or sides heavily on the molecular/cellular side of neurology (in which i have pretty low scientific experience or interest). I'm not sure if this is just because functional neurosurgery is just a small subset of neurosurgery in general.

Is my perception of research accurate? I know you say that just doing research is most important, but would a PhD with a basic neuroscience lab that focuses on neural circuit function vs. a lab that studies molecular/cellular mechanisms associated with neurological disorders put me at a disadvantage relative to other applicants (perhaps because it would make it seem like I want to be a psychiatrist or neurologist and don't know what I'm getting into)? Should I try to supplement this thesis research by also working with a researching neurosurgeon at my institution? Am I wrong for wanting to pursue neurosurgery?

Thanks and sorry if this post comes off as a little neurotic.

First and foremost, see if the lifestyle and research focus you desire are compatible with neurosurgery, more specifically, 7-years of residency working 80-hours-a-week, not doing what you are interested in. If, after giving up functional for 7-years, yes there are many labs that focus on the specifics you desire. Using molecular biology or electrophysiology techniques are often necessary because our understanding of the field is poor, but the field is varied. Often, there is a putative specific disease focus assigned by the lab, moreover for funding reasons (e.g. a specific society has funds for research, we want them, let's assign this study to that disease because they are vaguely overlapping). Ideally, you would find a neurosurgeon with a lab, or involved in a group, that conducts research that interests you. Even if you join a lab that has no neurosurgeons, it would be a good idea to get involved with the neurosurgeons at your program. After all, they are the gate keepers to you getting in to neurosurgery residency.
 
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This is a bit of a subjective question, but would you say neurosurgeons you've worked with fit the typical "surgeon" mold? Like, very intense, no BS individuals? I only wonder because I work in the OR and have shadowed and met 3 neuro guys, one of them being my closest mentor, and I do not find this to be the case at all. They're willing to stop and talk or explain what they're doing throughout the procedure to me, just a pre-med student, and will take time to talk after they close the case. We joke at work all the time that it's not the neurosurgeons who are the self-righteous people who think they are God's gift to earth, it's surprisingly the ortho guys. I know this will vary from program to program/hospital to hospital, but I was just wondering if you've enjoyed working with neurosurgeons for the better part of your life?

I tried asking this as tactfully as possible because I think we can all see that you are not this way from the amount of time you have spent answering thousands of questions in this thread. I hope nothing I said offended you. Thanks again for what you do!
 
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First and foremost, see if the lifestyle and research focus you desire are compatible with neurosurgery, more specifically, 7-years of residency working 80-hours-a-week, not doing what you are interested in. If, after giving up functional for 7-years, yes there are many labs that focus on the specifics you desire. Using molecular biology or electrophysiology techniques are often necessary because our understanding of the field is poor, but the field is varied. Often, there is a putative specific disease focus assigned by the lab, moreover for funding reasons (e.g. a specific society has funds for research, we want them, let's assign this study to that disease because they are vaguely overlapping). Ideally, you would find a neurosurgeon with a lab, or involved in a group, that conducts research that interests you. Even if you join a lab that has no neurosurgeons, it would be a good idea to get involved with the neurosurgeons at your program. After all, they are the gate keepers to you getting in to neurosurgery residency.


Thanks so much for the reply.

Just wanted to clarify my first point a little to put my neurotic mind at ease. I'm definitely interested in Neurosurgery beyond the functional aspect. Fascinated by all aspects of the CNS, but my long-term scientific goals are functional. So, you think it's okay if I work in a pure basic neuroscience lab for my PhD thesis (e.g. something like studying memory and behavior in a mouse model by targeting neural circuits with optogenetics) as long as I also work with a neurosurgeon on the side through med school? In your experience, do you ever see applicants that are heavier on the basic neuroscience side, and does it cause any negative reactions?
 
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I have the opportunity to shadow and work on clinical research with some neurosurgeons this summer (as an undergrad). Do you have any advice as to what questions I should ask, what to focus on, what not to do, etc.? Really excited and want to get the most out of this.
 
This is a bit of a subjective question, but would you say neurosurgeons you've worked with fit the typical "surgeon" mold? Like, very intense, no BS individuals? I only wonder because I work in the OR and have shadowed and met 3 neuro guys, one of them being my closest mentor, and I do not find this to be the case at all. They're willing to stop and talk or explain what they're doing throughout the procedure to me, just a pre-med student, and will take time to talk after they close the case. We joke at work all the time that it's not the neurosurgeons who are the self-righteous people who think they are God's gift to earth, it's surprisingly the ortho guys. I know this will vary from program to program/hospital to hospital, but I was just wondering if you've enjoyed working with neurosurgeons for the better part of your life?

I tried asking this as tactfully as possible because I think we can all see that you are not this way from the amount of time you have spent answering thousands of questions in this thread. I hope nothing I said offended you. Thanks again for what you do!

I tend to agree, the neurosugeons I work with or have met tend to be pleasant. Perhaps this is just because I also fit this personality type, but I seem to fit in. Certainly, there are some self-righteous types in neurosurgery, but I suspect it is not as prevalent as one would think. In any case, I try not to characterize whole sub-groups of people within medicine based on my limited interaction with a few individuals at my institution.
 
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@neusu I'm starting medical school in the Fall. How would I best go about preparing to be a strong neurosurgery applicant given my medical school's lack of residencies besides family medicine. Moreover, research opportunities at my institution are very limited. It is possible to develop connections and do research at one of my sister medical schools in Chicago (that has a neurosurgery residency program). However, I'd be traveling 1.5 hours any time I would need to be on-site.

Also, I've heard that, since my medical school does not have any residencies besides family medicine, students often act as interns in the hospital and work one-on-one with attendings. Do you think that such experience is uniquely beneficial when it comes to residency applications (would such experience make me stand out)?

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
I tend to agree, the neurosugeons I work with or have met tend to be pleasant. Perhaps this is just because I also fit this personality type, but I seem to fit in. Certainly, there are some self-righteous types in neurosurgery, but I suspect it is not as prevalent as one would think. In any case, I try not to characterize whole sub-groups of people within medicine based on my limited interaction with a few individuals at my institution.

Great. Thank you for the response!
 
Thanks so much for the reply.

Just wanted to clarify my first point a little to put my neurotic mind at ease. I'm definitely interested in Neurosurgery beyond the functional aspect. Fascinated by all aspects of the CNS, but my long-term scientific goals are functional. So, you think it's okay if I work in a pure basic neuroscience lab for my PhD thesis (e.g. something like studying memory and behavior in a mouse model by targeting neural circuits with optogenetics) as long as I also work with a neurosurgeon on the side through med school? In your experience, do you ever see applicants that are heavier on the basic neuroscience side, and does it cause any negative reactions?

That research sounds great. Most PhD students have heavy basic science research. In my experience, most change their mind in residency and end up in private practice.
 
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Quick question about the peds nsg fellowship match report - in 2015, 42 applicants registered, 32 participated, and 28 of those 32 matched. I'm not exactly sure what to make of that. Any idea why 10 applicants registered and didn't participate? Should I take those numbers to mean there's an 88% match rate, or is the real number closer to 67%?

And more importantly, is there a strong self-selection bias going on here? It seems like a match rate of almost 90% is pretty solid, but is this applicant pool much stronger than the general pool of nsg residents?
 
I'm going to be shadowing a neurosurgeon on Thursday. Given the specialty of the doc, it's probably a craniotomy and resection of GBM. Do you have any advice for shadowing in a case like this or anything that you think is really interesting that I should be keeping an eye out for? Thank you!
 
I'm going to be shadowing a neurosurgeon on Thursday. Given the specialty of the doc, it's probably a craniotomy and resection of GBM. Do you have any advice for shadowing in a case like this or anything that you think is really interesting that I should be keeping an eye out for? Thank you!
Its amazing and there is nothing like it. That is all.
 
Do you want to be a neurosurgeon?

haha that would definitely be awesome but I'm just focused on getting in to school first. One step at a time!

One of my mentors is a neurosurgeon and he lets me scrub into cases with him frequently. It is absolutely fascinating and I'm positive you'll have a lot of fun. The only advice I have for you as far as shadowing goes is to try to read the mood in the OR for the day. Some days it is perfectly fine to ask questions (usually while they are closing or during a non-critical time in the operation) as long as the surgeon is in a good mood. Other days, not so much. Just try to read the mood and act accordingly.
 
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haha that would definitely be awesome but I'm just focused on getting in to school first. One step at a time!

One of my mentors is a neurosurgeon and he lets me scrub into cases with him frequently. It is absolutely fascinating and I'm positive you'll have a lot of fun. The only advice I have for you as far as shadowing goes is to try to read the mood in the OR for the day. Some days it is perfectly fine to ask questions (usually while they are closing or during a non-critical time in the operation) as long as the surgeon is in a good mood. Other days, not so much. Just try to read the mood and act accordingly.
Thanks for the advice. I do research in the neurosurgery department with a couple neuro-oncologists, but I've never gotten see the surgery in person.
 
Thanks for the advice. I do research in the neurosurgery department with a couple neuro-oncologists, but I've never gotten see the surgery in person.
Oh thats awesome! I would love to get involved in research with surgeons but sadly there isn't an academic center where I live. What kind of research do you guys do?
 
Oh thats awesome! I would love to get involved in research with surgeons but sadly there isn't an academic center where I live. What kind of research do you guys do?
All kinds of stuff... it's sort of like candy land for nerds. It's mostly biostat research but I can take it most anywhere. I've written a paper on the toxicity of intrathecal administration of various drugs. I'm working on another paper on gene expression of patients glioblastoma. They also let me propose and run a project on novel diagnostic indicators for cns metastasis. It's pretty cool
 
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Oh thats awesome! I would love to get involved in research with surgeons but sadly there isn't an academic center where I live. What kind of research do you guys do?
Btw, I didn't have a medical center near me either. The med school is 2 hours away from campus, so I took this semester off just to do research. If you have time/ are taking a gap year, you might consider doing that.
 
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All kinds of stuff... it's sort of like candy land for nerds. It's mostly biostat research but I can take it most anywhere. I've written a paper on the toxicity of intrathecal administration of various drugs. I'm working on another paper on gene expression of patients glioblastoma. They also let me propose and run a project on novel diagnostic indicators for cns metastasis. It's pretty cool

Btw, I didn't have a medical center near me either. The med school is 2 hours away from campus, so I took this semester off just to do research. If you have time/ are taking a gap year, you might consider doing that.

Sounds super interesting! Hey thats a good point. And I will be taking a gap year. I guess when we get closer to that time I can start sending out emails and see if I get any bites. I do clinical research at a secondary campus for my state school (it is more with primary care), so maybe that'll give me a little hook-up. Thanks for the suggestion, I would've never thought of doing that!
 
Sounds super interesting! Hey thats a good point. And I will be taking a gap year. I guess when we get closer to that time I can start sending out emails and see if I get any bites. I do clinical research at a secondary campus for my state school (it is more with primary care), so maybe that'll give me a little hook-up. Thanks for the suggestion, I would've never thought of doing that!
Good luck! You'd be surprised what you can get when you send out emails. That's how I got this research.
 
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I have the opportunity to shadow and work on clinical research with some neurosurgeons this summer (as an undergrad). Do you have any advice as to what questions I should ask, what to focus on, what not to do, etc.? Really excited and want to get the most out of this.

This can be an excellent way to become involved. Your level of knowledge and understanding at first will be far too low to do much and most people become overwhelmed and are easily discouraged. Realizing this, set your expectations low, and your time-frame for results extended, and you should be happy. For any successful project, know what you're doing and why, as well as how to do it, is important. You will likely spend a good amount of time, at first, just reading and trying to remember the different terms we use and/or collecting data. Once you are familiar with this, things become easier. Try to enjoy yourself!
 
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@neusu I'm starting medical school in the Fall. How would I best go about preparing to be a strong neurosurgery applicant given my medical school's lack of residencies besides family medicine. Moreover, research opportunities at my institution are very limited. It is possible to develop connections and do research at one of my sister medical schools in Chicago (that has a neurosurgery residency program). However, I'd be traveling 1.5 hours any time I would need to be on-site.

Also, I've heard that, since my medical school does not have any residencies besides family medicine, students often act as interns in the hospital and work one-on-one with attendings. Do you think that such experience is uniquely beneficial when it comes to residency applications (would such experience make me stand out)?

Thanks in advance for your help.

All other things being equal, a school with a program tends to provide more opportunities than one without a program. You certainly can still develop connections, conduct research, and have a strong application coming from any school. I am unclear as to what a sister medical school is, can you clarify?

While having more of a role and more responsibility as a medical student is beneficial to your ability to function as an intern, it really makes no difference to your training or application to residency. You spend 3-7 years in residency to learn the skills you need, and they assume you don't know anything when you arrive because the variability between knowledge acquired at different medical schools is wide. That being said, the caveat is that if you are a go-to guy on your SubI, you may do better and have a better letter of recommendation as such.
 
It seems somewhat dangerous/careless that they allow surgeons to carry out surgeries after 30 hours of consecutive work. I'm assuming this could mean there's a shortage of people practicing in the field, potentially intentional. But why not admit more residents and train more people in neurosurgery to keep the work hours down a bit? First hand, do you feel like its a big problem having people carry out surgeries after extremely long shifts/lack of sleep? I know you said that sleep deprivation hasn't seemed to cause any errors way back in this post, but I still don't see how its acceptable to leave higher potential for human error when it can be avoided.
 
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@neusu
All other things being equal, a school with a program tends to provide more opportunities than one without a program. You certainly can still develop connections, conduct research, and have a strong application coming from any school. I am unclear as to what a sister medical school is, can you clarify?

While having more of a role and more responsibility as a medical student is beneficial to your ability to function as an intern, it really makes no difference to your training or application to residency. You spend 3-7 years in residency to learn the skills you need, and they assume you don't know anything when you arrive because the variability between knowledge acquired at different medical schools is wide. That being said, the caveat is that if you are a go-to guy on your SubI, you may do better and have a better letter of recommendation as such.

Thank you for your reply. I'm matriculating at the University of Illinois. Maybe calling the Chicago campus a "sister" medical school wasn't the right way to put it. University of Illinois has 3 campuses. 2 of which have most of the residencies you'd expect while 1 (the campuses I'm going to) only has a Family Medicine residency program. I do not have any complaints, however. I just want to know how best to excel in my situation if I stay committed to being a neurosurgeon.
 
Quick question about the peds nsg fellowship match report - in 2015, 42 applicants registered, 32 participated, and 28 of those 32 matched. I'm not exactly sure what to make of that. Any idea why 10 applicants registered and didn't participate? Should I take those numbers to mean there's an 88% match rate, or is the real number closer to 67%?

And more importantly, is there a strong self-selection bias going on here? It seems like a match rate of almost 90% is pretty solid, but is this applicant pool much stronger than the general pool of nsg residents?

I am not terribly familiar with the pediatric match, but it seems fair that there as an 88% match rate.

There is a strong self selection for any fellowship in neurosurgery. Pediatrics is the only field with a match process. The majority of neurosurgeons are in private practice, and do not do fellowship. Likewise, for your average neurosurgeon, a year of fellowship is a year of lost salary as an attending. Doing a fellowship does not increase the salary, like it would going from internal medicine to GI or cards. The only benefits of fellowship are if a resident has a particular academic interest or wants specialty training to do more advanced surgeries more routinely.

Those interested in pediatric neurosurgery tend to focus their research efforts therein and may do extra electives in that realm. With respect to your question whether or not they are stronger, I would have to say it depends. Certainly, there are many strong residents going in to pediatric neurosurgery. That being said, many pediatric neurosurgery resident applicants would be a weaker applicant to another sub-specialty like vascular, spine, or functional (and vice versa). It really comes down to personal preference, fit, and connections.
 
The average neurosurgeon resident has 13.4 abstracts, presentations, and posters. In your opinion, are local school poster symposiums and presentations worth listing? or should you really only national conferences/abstracts?
 
I'm going to be shadowing a neurosurgeon on Thursday. Given the specialty of the doc, it's probably a craniotomy and resection of GBM. Do you have any advice for shadowing in a case like this or anything that you think is really interesting that I should be keeping an eye out for? Thank you!

If it's your first time shadowing, just trying to keep abreast of what is going on may prove challenging. In the OR, stay out of the way, don't touch anything, especially anything blue. If you start to feel dizzy, say something, unlock your knees, and/or squat down if you can. It should be a fun experience!
 
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It seems somewhat dangerous/careless that they allow surgeons to carry out surgeries after 30 hours of consecutive work. I'm assuming this could mean there's a shortage of people practicing in the field, potentially intentional. But why not admit more residents and train more people in neurosurgery to keep the work hours down a bit? First hand, do you feel like its a big problem having people carry out surgeries after extremely long shifts/lack of sleep? I know you said that sleep deprivation hasn't seemed to cause any errors way back in this post, but I still don't see how its acceptable to leave higher potential for human error when it can be avoided.

There are a number of factors in play here. First and foremost, for most people 30-hours is a lot (the limit is 28-hours however), residents included. That being said, let us make an analogy to running a marathon. If you take your average person off the street, and ask them to run a marathon, they would not be ready. Marathon runners, on the other hand, have trained for the distance and are psychological and physiologically ready for the event. Most people off the street would not function well after 28-hours. Likewise, most residents don't either. Even so, residents in training, at least in neurosurgery, are generally familiar with getting less sleep, and/or taking call for 28-hours. Is it safe? It seems so, given the system of checks in place. Is there a better system? At the moment, that appears to be no.

To answer your question regarding a shortage of neurosurgeons. That is tough to measure. From what I can tell, there does not seem to be a protracted wait for a neurosurgeon, or people going untreated. Would the number of hours be less if we had more neurosurgeons? Most likely. Would those neurosurgeons be trained as well? Undoubtedly not. The RRC has oversight over resident training and has strict requirements for the experiences of each resident with respect to volume and breadth of cases seen. Diluting the volume (and breadth) across more residents would result in lower quality training for each resident.

Finally, to address human error. Unfortunately, in the world of humans dealing with and treating other humans, human error is a factor. There have been many studies looking at duty hours and whether they play a role in these events, notably prior to and after the switch from 28-hours, to a 16-hour limit for interns, and back. My assessment of this is that most residents tend to be able to function within their range of practice at the end of their call period. Most near-misses, misses, or never events that occur, are due to a series of errors and involve multiple people.
 
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@neusu

Thank you for your reply. I'm matriculating at the University of Illinois. Maybe calling the Chicago campus a "sister" medical school wasn't the right way to put it. University of Illinois has 3 campuses. 2 of which have most of the residencies you'd expect while 1 (the campuses I'm going to) only has a Family Medicine residency program. I do not have any complaints, however. I just want to know how best to excel in my situation if I stay committed to being a neurosurgeon.

Tough call. I am not particularly familiar with the system, but I know there are UI programs in Peoria and Chicago. First and foremost, focus on learning the material to be a doctor. The foundation of any application is grades and Step scores. After this, it might be worth looking in to the possibility of doing research with one of the departments affiliated with your system. This will introduce you to the deparment and establish interest in the field. Likewise, being published is beneficial for applications.
 
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I am not terribly familiar with the pediatric match, but it seems fair that there as an 88% match rate.

There is a strong self selection for any fellowship in neurosurgery. Pediatrics is the only field with a match process. The majority of neurosurgeons are in private practice, and do not do fellowship. Likewise, for your average neurosurgeon, a year of fellowship is a year of lost salary as an attending. Doing a fellowship does not increase the salary, like it would going from internal medicine to GI or cards. The only benefits of fellowship are if a resident has a particular academic interest or wants specialty training to do more advanced surgeries more routinely.

Those interested in pediatric neurosurgery tend to focus their research efforts therein and may do extra electives in that realm. With respect to your question whether or not they are stronger, I would have to say it depends. Certainly, there are many strong residents going in to pediatric neurosurgery. That being said, many pediatric neurosurgery resident applicants would be a weaker applicant to another sub-specialty like vascular, spine, or functional (and vice versa). It really comes down to personal preference, fit, and connections.
Got it, that makes sense, thanks!

I'm taking your earlier advice by the way, I'll be shadowing a peds neurosurgeon soon, so hopefully I can deal with seeing the non-accidental trauma/terminal brain cancer/etc that you mentioned. I'm a bit worried about that, but you're definitely right that I should figure out whether or not I can handle it before jumping in head-long to pursuing that field as an MS1.
 
Hi @neusu—thanks so much for answering all these questions. This thread is my favorite thing to read in bed...

...I need more hobbies.

I have a couple of questions for you. As an undergrad I shadowed a neurosurgeon, and I fell in love with both being in the OR and the cases I was fortunate enough to see. My questions now are (I'm an incoming M1): (1) What would be the best way to confirm or deny my interest in NSG itself? Should I contact the same attending I joined as an undergrad and ask if he would mind me scrubbing in for a few cases? (2) As a med student—at least as an M1—I imagine I won't be trusted which much more than standing there watching. So how could I then garner a sense of what it is actually like to be wearing the loops myself and operating? So I know if I truly enjoy operating or not?

I'm hesitant about NSG for a couple of reasons, could you give me a honest assessment of the relative validity of each of these hesitations? (1) One of the most compelling aspects of surgery for me (other than the actual operating on the human body) is the ability to have a profound and immediate impact on a patient's life. Do you find the surgical interventions you perform significantly increase others' quality of life? (2) When I'm sleep-deprived I find myself to be crankier, less patient, etc (as do most people). Are the long hours something I would be able to become accustomed to? And my body would respond accordingly and develop the mental, emotional, physical stamina NSG requires? (3) I would love to work in an academic setting, but I've done basic science research all four years in undergrad and I am more than done. I loved conducting research, but I don't see it being something I want to focus on in my career. I would love, however, to teach residents. How feasible is it, as a NSG attending, to work at an academic hospital and be a clinician-educator?

Edit: What are your most and least favorite cases?
 
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The average neurosurgeon resident has 13.4 abstracts, presentations, and posters. In your opinion, are local school poster symposiums and presentations worth listing? or should you really only national conferences/abstracts?

If I recall correctly students are advised to list everything. It certainly is better to have abstracts at the national meetings, but unless you have an inordinate amount of other impacting lines on your CV, every thing counts. There is a saying about your CV that they gauge it's strength by weighing it, e.g. the longer the better.
 
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There are a number of factors in play here. First and foremost, for most people 30-hours is a lot (the limit is 28-hours however), residents included. That being said, let us make an analogy to running a marathon. If you take your average person off the street, and ask them to run a marathon, they would not be ready. Marathon runners, on the other hand, have trained for the distance and are psychological and physiologically ready for the event. Most people off the street would not function well after 28-hours. Likewise, most residents don't either. Even so, residents in training, at least in neurosurgery, are generally familiar with getting less sleep, and/or taking call for 28-hours. Is it safe? It seems so, given the system of checks in place. Is there a better system? At the moment, that appears to be no.

To answer your question regarding a shortage of neurosurgeons. That is tough to measure. From what I can tell, there does not seem to be a protracted wait for a neurosurgeon, or people going untreated. Would the number of hours be less if we had more neurosurgeons? Most likely. Would those neurosurgeons be trained as well? Undoubtedly not. The RRC has oversight over resident training and has strict requirements for the experiences of each resident with respect to volume and breadth of cases seen. Diluting the volume (and breadth) across more residents would result in lower quality training for each resident.

Finally, to address human error. Unfortunately, in the world of humans dealing with and treating other humans, human error is a factor. There have been many studies looking at duty hours and whether they play a role in these events, notably prior to and after the switch from 28-hours, to a 16-hour limit for interns, and back. My assessment of this is that most residents tend to be able to function within their range of practice at the end of their call period. Most near-misses, misses, or never events that occur, are due to a series of errors and involve multiple people.

Thank you for the detailed reply! This gives me a better idea of the logic behind the workload.
 
Hi @neusu—thanks so much for answering all these questions. This thread is my favorite thing to read in bed...

...I need more hobbies.

I have a couple of questions for you. As an undergrad I shadowed a neurosurgeon, and I fell in love with both being in the OR and the cases I was fortunate enough to see. My questions now are (I'm an incoming M1): (1) What would be the best way to confirm or deny my interest in NSG itself? Should I contact the same attending I joined as an undergrad and ask if he would mind me scrubbing in for a few cases? (2) As a med student—at least as an M1—I imagine I won't be trusted which much more than standing there watching. So how could I then garner a sense of what it is actually like to be wearing the loops myself and operating? So I know if I truly enjoy operating or not?

I'm hesitant about NSG for a couple of reasons, could you give me a honest assessment of the relative validity of each of these hesitations? (1) One of the most compelling aspects of surgery for me (other than the actual operating on the human body) is the ability to have a profound and immediate impact on a patient's life. Do you find the surgical interventions you perform significantly increase others' quality of life? (2) When I'm sleep-deprived I find myself to be crankier, less patient, etc (as do most people). Are the long hours something I would be able to become accustomed to? And my body would respond accordingly and develop the mental, emotional, physical stamina NSG requires? (3) I would love to work in an academic setting, but I've done basic science research all four years in undergrad and I am more than done. I loved conducting research, but I don't see it being something I want to focus on in my career. I would love, however, to teach residents. How feasible is it, as a NSG attending, to work at an academic hospital and be a clinician-educator?

Edit: What are your most and least favorite cases?

I tend to read in bed before I fall asleep, as well.

Finding out if it is something you want to do can be difficult. The topics themselves are often fascinating. The way we treat them, however, can be more mundane. See if it would be possible to shadow for a day or two. More important than determining if you would want to be a neurosurgeon is determining if you would be willing to make the sacrifices and go through the required training that are necessary to become a neurosurgeon. While this may have to wait until your M3 or M4 year, you can get to know the residents and get a feel for their life. To put it in scope, residency is nearly as long as undergrad and medical school, combined. Add to that you will be working a lot, and have minimal flexibility to do the things you enjoy, spend time how you'd like, or attend to personal commitments (e.g. weddings etc). Research is a great way to get involved, get to know the people better, and have opportunities for shadowing or going to the OR.

With respect to your hesitations: Yes, I find we do have a significant effect on the quality of our patients life. Depending on the case, we can extend length of life or simply improve it. Most people do adapt to long hours and sleep deprivation. That being said, it has to be something you are willing to sacrifice and want to do. Resenting life all-day ever-day is no way to live. There are many types of academic neurosurgeons. A few have a basic science lab and also a clinical practice. Many conduct clinical research while practicing. There are also many who do some research but teach. It really depends on what you would like to do, and if there is a department that needs your particular skill set and interests. That being said, academic neurosurgery in general is moving towards the expectation of productivity, e.g. requiring research and publication.

My favorite cases are open vascular.
 
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Thanks so much for your thoughtful response! Things to keep in mind.

Not to derail the thread into a book club, but other than charts etc what do you read before bed? And to all the NSG lovers on this thread FWIW I'd recommend reading When Breath Becomes Air...it's a haunting memoir written by a neurosurgeon confronting an early death. I sobbed several times while reading it and still find myself reflecting upon his words. Some light summer reading perhaps?
 
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Thank you for the detailed reply! This gives me a better idea of the logic behind the workload.

I am happy to hear it helps you understand. Truth be told, there are likely a number of other factors at play that are less altruistic (e.g. finances of paying more residents, competition from more graduates decreasing salaries across the board, etc.). Finally, the world tends to follow the first and second law of thermodynamics, that is a body at rest stays at rest. Given the current system seems to work, most of the time, for most people, there really is not much pushing it to change let alone a proposed alternative that is better. Keeping these factors in mind when you consider your field of choice, how it is currently, and where it is headed, can prepare you for your future.
 
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Thanks so much for your thoughtful response! Things to keep in mind.

Not to derail the thread into a book club, but other than charts etc what do you read before bed? And to all the NSG lovers on this thread FWIW I'd recommend reading When Breath Becomes Air...it's a haunting memoir written by a neurosurgeon confronting an early death. I sobbed several times while reading it and still find myself reflecting upon his words. Some light summer reading perhaps?

Oh it varies. Mostly journal articles or things for my next days cases. I follow SDN or other forums. For actual books, lately, I tend to be in to history. Given the wealth of books available and limited amount time, though, finding one I'll enjoy can be the hardest part because of the opportunity cost reading a book I'm not enjoying.
 
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