Ask a neurosurgery resident anything

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Thank you immensely for doing this thread! I'm currently trying to schedule my MS4 electives and do you recommend any outside of the neurosurgery sub-I, NICU, neuroradiology, and neuropathology?

As mentioned, do away SubI rotations at other institutions. Other than that, do what you find interesting. You will get a lot of neuroICU, neuroradiology, neuropath, neurology etc as a resident (well, at least some). Alternatively, pick the easiest route through so you can have some time to enjoy life, or take something you wouldn't normally like dermatology, ENT, OB/GYN because you won't be seeing much of this again for the rest of your life.

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Do you think it would be possible to pursue a neurosurgery residency as a DO? I mean, obviously it’s POSSIBLE as in people have DONE IT, but is it common?
 
As a medical student, you will rarely have time to conduct basic science. If you can, and get a meaningful paper, great. Regardless, publish or perish. If you have a research experience, but do not have a paper from it, it does not matter for applications.

Is it common to work in a nsg basic science lab for a summer and be named as an author on a paper a year down the line bc of data you contributed? I'm currently deciding between the above being a possibility (for a poster presentation and possibility of a pub) vs doing a ten week clinical msrp with a (99%) guaranteed first author paper. Which would you recommend? Both are with the same PI.
My PI recommends the basic science exposure.
 
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Do you think it would be possible to pursue a neurosurgery residency as a DO? I mean, obviously it’s POSSIBLE as in people have DONE IT, but is it common?

It is both possible, and people have done it. Prior to the merger of the ACGME and the AOA, there were DO specific residencies, so it was common. Now, it hasn't been long enough to determine how this merger impacts DO students' ability to match, when competing with their MD counterparts.
 
One issue being faces at the moment is apparently the pediatric neurosurgery board doesn't recognize DOs. That hopefully will be addressed shortly but I thought that was odd that they hadn't previously resolved accreditation issues.
 
Is it common to work in a nsg basic science lab for a summer and be named as an author on a paper a year down the line bc of data you contributed? I'm currently deciding between the above being a possibility (for a poster presentation and possibility of a pub) vs doing a ten week clinical msrp with a (99%) guaranteed first author paper. Which would you recommend? Both are with the same PI.
My PI recommends the basic science exposure.

It really depends on the lab. More liberal labs will put you on. More conservative labs treat data collection as a technician, and you are not included in the authorship of the paper. So, unless you analyze the data, write or review the paper, or contribute significantly, you are left off.

I am a bit distant from the issue now, but in my review of resident applicants, papers are valued highest. Oral presentations count less, but far more than posters. If I were you, knowing what I know now, I would do the research experience with a paper as a result.

The old saying is that if it's not published, you didn't do it. You could spend 10 years in a lab doing amazing research. On your application though, if it is not out in press, it will not matter.
 
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It really depends on the lab. More liberal labs will put you on. More conservative labs treat data collection as a technician, and you are not included in the authorship of the paper. So, unless you analyze the data, write or review the paper, or contribute significantly, you are left off.

I am a bit distant from the issue now, but in my review of resident applicants, papers are valued highest. Oral presentations count less, but far more than posters. If I were you, knowing what I know now, I would do the research experience with a paper as a result.

The old saying is that if it's not published, you didn't do it. You could spend 10 years in a lab doing amazing research. On your application though, if it is not out in press, it will not matter.
Thank you!!
Is there any way I can politely ask my PI what his take is on how much work/effort would lead to authorship for basic science work in his immunotherapy lab? All he said before was "significant contribution" would yield authorship but thats incredibly vague.
 
How much of a variety can/do private practice or community hospital employed neurosurgeons have? Is it reasonable for a endovascular trained doc to have a practice encompassing tumors, spine, carotids, neuro IR, a little open vascular, and then trauma call? Considering if they want to be that busy.

Obviously NSGY often has some poor outcomes for trauma cranis. How often do you see amazing recoveries following them? Do they help balance out and get you through the catastrophic outcomes?

bump :)
 
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Thank you!!
Is there any way I can politely ask my PI what his take is on how much work/effort would lead to authorship for basic science work in his immunotherapy lab? All he said before was "significant contribution" would yield authorship but thats incredibly vague.

Probably not. This type of question comes off as lazy, or at a minimum trying to do the least amount of work. Most PIs want someone who is motivated and willing to do whatever is necessary.
 

Ooops, I missed this one

Private practice surgeons can typically do what they please, or what is referred to them. Thus, yes, a general practice is possible.

Some trauma craniotomies do very well. Many do not. When I was a medical student, I thought I would enjoy trauma. As I progressed through residency, trauma became increasingly annoying. Moreover, the majority of neuro trauma ER visits are non-operative, and are a huge drag on a service. Add to this that the surgeries are rarely technically challenging, and I would be more than happy to never take trauma call again in my life.
 
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I know you gave a ratio of your spine/cranial earlier in this thread somewhere and I thought you said 80/20 or 70/30 or so. What's the most common cranial cases you do?

Glad to hear some trauma cranis do very well. Do some walk out with no deficits at all? Many people talk about trauma craniotomies like they all just produce vent dependent quadriplegics.
 
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Probably not. This type of question comes off as lazy, or at a minimum trying to do the least amount of work. Most PIs want someone who is motivated and willing to do whatever is necessary.
Makes sense! Thanks!
 
I know you gave a ratio of your spine/cranial earlier in this thread somewhere and I thought you said 80/20 or 70/30 or so. What's the most common cranial cases you do?

Glad to hear some trauma cranis do very well. Do some walk out with no deficits at all? Many people talk about trauma craniotomies like they all just produce vent dependent quadriplegics.

Every surgeon's practice is different. At the moment, I'm 100% cranial, though that may shift in the near future.

Make sure you are careful with utilizing technical language. Someone who is quadriplegic likely has a spinal cord injury. After a severe traumatic brain injury, or stroke, a patient may not be sufficiently alert to protect their airway. Commonly, a tracheotomy is performed, and the ventilator is able to be weaned. This isn't to say the patient does not remain severely disabled, only there is a dramatic difference in the level of care for someone ventilator dependent (LTAC) and someone who has a trach (SNF). I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but we measure outcome at 6-months following hospital discharge. That is to say, when they leave the hospital, they may still require significant care for ADLs. With rehab, though, these patients do improve.
 
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Every surgeon's practice is different. At the moment, I'm 100% cranial, though that may shift in the near future.

Make sure you are careful with utilizing technical language. Someone who is quadriplegic likely has a spinal cord injury. After a severe traumatic brain injury, or stroke, a patient may not be sufficiently alert to protect their airway. Commonly, a tracheotomy is performed, and the ventilator is able to be weaned. This isn't to say the patient does not remain severely disabled, only there is a dramatic difference in the level of care for someone ventilator dependent (LTAC) and someone who has a trach (SNF). I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but we measure outcome at 6-months following hospital discharge. That is to say, when they leave the hospital, they may still require significant care for ADLs. With rehab, though, these patients do improve.

Wow, 100% cranial in non-academic? Do you mind giving a rundown of your most common cranial cases?

Thanks for the correction also.
 
As someone interested in the neuroscience, I find the idea of working on the body system that makes up who we are pretty daunting, especially for surgeries of the brain; do you feel like you have that pressure when performing cranial surgeries?
 
As someone interested in the neuroscience, I find the idea of working on the body system that makes up who we are pretty daunting, especially for surgeries of the brain; do you feel like you have that pressure when performing cranial surgeries?

No, not really. Perhaps when I was first performing these surgeries, that was something I thought about. Surgery as a field tends to dehumanize the patient we are performing surgery on. The patient, often, is intubated and under anesthesia. We place a series of sterile draping over the surgical field, so all that is left is a small window that we can see. The surgeries themselves, are broken in to a series of sequential technical steps, and the impact or physiological significance of each is not often noted as its completed. Finally, much of what a neurosurgeon does on a daily basis has little to do with neuroscience.
 
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Hello,

Thank you very much for this incredible thread. I’ve learned so much!

I would like to ask a few questions as well as your opinion/advice on the dilemma I’m facing.

I am keenly interested in pursuing neurosurgery. I have already been accepted to a top 25 US medical school w/ scholarship, and will likely be accepted to the MD program at the University of Toronto as well. Under normal circumstances I would go to the University of Toronto (great medical school/hospitals/faculty). Then, zooming forward four years, I would apply to neurosurgical residencies in the US (because of matching and job market issues in Canada). However, such a path is highly uncommon (out of the 2000 Canadian medical graduates in the past ten years, only a handful have successfully gone on towards US residencies, and only one has done so in neurosurgery). I would like your opinion:

How much of a disadvantage would I be at applying to US neurosurgery programs coming from the University of Toronto?

Some pertinent info. I am a dual citizen (no visa issues). I expect to be highly competitive with regard to USMLE scores and publications. A neurosurgery away rotation in the US would be highly uncertain (scheduling, insurance, and home program cooperativeness issues).

How detrimental would this be to my US neurosurgery application? How detrimental would a lack of recommendations from US neurosurgeons be?

During the interview phase, I would expect to be screened out or ‘filtered’ at a number of programs because I am not a US medical grad.

How common do you think this will be? Do you think I could compensate for that by trying to directly contact program directors?

Another thing is that my ‘Dean’s Letter’ (MSPE) is likely to be a different format than coming from a US program.

Do you think this could be a serious problem? Can you think of any other problems?

All in all, do you think that applying to US neurosurgery from the University of Toronto is a viable strategy? Or should I just go pursue my US MD option?

I appreciate your time and consideration. Thanks, Neuro02.
 
Hello,

Thank you very much for this incredible thread. I’ve learned so much!

I would like to ask a few questions as well as your opinion/advice on the dilemma I’m facing.

I am keenly interested in pursuing neurosurgery. I have already been accepted to a top 25 US medical school w/ scholarship, and will likely be accepted to the MD program at the University of Toronto as well. Under normal circumstances I would go to the University of Toronto (great medical school/hospitals/faculty). Then, zooming forward four years, I would apply to neurosurgical residencies in the US (because of matching and job market issues in Canada). However, such a path is highly uncommon (out of the 2000 Canadian medical graduates in the past ten years, only a handful have successfully gone on towards US residencies, and only one has done so in neurosurgery). I would like your opinion:

How much of a disadvantage would I be at applying to US neurosurgery programs coming from the University of Toronto?

Some pertinent info. I am a dual citizen (no visa issues). I expect to be highly competitive with regard to USMLE scores and publications. A neurosurgery away rotation in the US would be highly uncertain (scheduling, insurance, and home program cooperativeness issues).

How detrimental would this be to my US neurosurgery application? How detrimental would a lack of recommendations from US neurosurgeons be?

During the interview phase, I would expect to be screened out or ‘filtered’ at a number of programs because I am not a US medical grad.

How common do you think this will be? Do you think I could compensate for that by trying to directly contact program directors?

Another thing is that my ‘Dean’s Letter’ (MSPE) is likely to be a different format than coming from a US program.

Do you think this could be a serious problem? Can you think of any other problems?

All in all, do you think that applying to US neurosurgery from the University of Toronto is a viable strategy? Or should I just go pursue my US MD option?

I appreciate your time and consideration. Thanks, Neuro02.

Applying to residency in the US having a degree from UT should not present much of an issue.

It is not terribly common, though I do know of several surgeons who either did medical school in US and trained in Canada, did medical school in Canada and trained in US, and practice in the US. The citizenship/visa issue is really the biggest hurdle.

It should be viable. That being said, if you get in to a better school in the US, that you like, it would be a better choice.
 
What are your chances of matching somewhere you didn't do an away rotation? Like are you realistically going to match at one of the 2 places you did a sub-i or your home program the vast majority of the time? @mmmcdowe wondering your thoughts as well, thanks!
 
What are your chances of matching somewhere you didn't do an away rotation? Like are you realistically going to match at one of the 2 places you did a sub-i or your home program the vast majority of the time? @mmmcdowe wondering your thoughts as well, thanks!
Statistically it is common compared to any one other program but the reality is many people match at non subis. I did.
 
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Neurosurgery residency is 7 years, yea? Will 2019 be your last year as a resident?(assuming you started in 2012)
 
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What are your chances of matching somewhere you didn't do an away rotation? Like are you realistically going to match at one of the 2 places you did a sub-i or your home program the vast majority of the time? @mmmcdowe wondering your thoughts as well, thanks!

For the most part, if you do well, you likely have a higher likelihood of matching at a place you rotate. Even so, most students match somewhere they have not rotated.
 
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This might've been asked before but is it true in private practice, you usually see spine cases more frequently, but in academics, you can work more on the brain? I'm curious regarding the better practice environment for someone interested in vascular (or endovascular) cases and/or cancer cases. I was thinking academics from what i'm seeing but not sure.

Thanks again for the help and advice @neusu @mmmcdowe
 
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This might've been asked before but is it true in private practice, you usually see spine cases more frequently, but in academics, you can work more on the brain? I'm curious regarding the better practice environment for someone interested in vascular (or endovascular) cases and/or cancer cases. I was thinking academics from what i'm seeing but not sure.

Thanks again for the help and advice @neusu @mmmcdowe

I have addressed this in other places, both in this thread, and in others. As an attending, the number, and variety of, cases you do, and amount of call you take, is at your discretion. In a pure sense, this is absolutely true, no one can really make you do something. In reality, it tends to get a bit muddy.

To answer your question, yes, there are successful private practice vascular/endovascular neurosurgeons. There are successful endovascular neurologists/neuorradiologists. There are successful open vascular neurosurgeons. Expecting that you will come out of training, and be handed the keys to the kingdom, and be able to do only the best cases, while not doing any cases you dislike, and maintain an income you expect, keep the volume required to continue to do such complex cases is foolish. Most neurosurgeons that are interested in vascular, any more, have to do both open and endovascular, to be competitive in a job market. Academic centers tend to allow for more flexibility to pursue academic interests, likewise, be larger centers, with specialists, which means you would be funneled the cases within your specialty.

That being said, reality is this such that no matter where you train, when you finish, you're back at the bottom of the totem pole. Everyone else in the academic department has seniority, or everyone else in the community private practice has already established referral patterns. You have to put in your time taking trauma/stroke call, doing wound washouts, and clinic to establish your reputation. Likewise, no one wants to talk about it, but income matters. If you're in private practice, eating what you kill, those student loans don't pay themselves off, and by the time you finish college/med school/residency/fellowship (+/- PhD/military to pay for it if you want to get the financial obligations out of the way), you're in your 30s-40s and want a family. Forgoing thousands of dollars a year to be an elitist/purist is lacking common sense. Likewise, in a group or academic center, where your productivity is measured by the RVU, again, you're unlikely to meet your numbers being selective early on, and have your salary significantly cut. Be careful, look at the contract, I've had friends burned by eye-popping signing bonuses and first year/two year salaries, only to find out when they didn't meet their numbers, it was structured as a loan, so they have to pay it back. Further, being known as the surgeon who tut tuts and only wants the good stuff is not good for your reputation, leading the referral pattern to not form. This leaves call as your primary source of patients with pathology needing treatment. I'll tell you, any of my friends/colleagues who are chairmen/directors of vascular and can afford to not take call, don't. The reason they can afford it is they get enough elective referrals that they can forgo call. This helps them in their lifestyle and sanity, and the more junior attendings build their reputation.

Finally, spine pathology is far more prevalent than brain pathology. The incidence of brain tumor in the general population is ~3%. Aneurysm ~2%. Back pain 80% of adults experience it at some point throughout their life. Are all of these operative? No. Anterior circulation aneurysm < 7 mm, for instance rarely rupture, so the 2 mm AComm in your clinic likely will be followed. Same thing with the L4/5 disc herniation. That being said, looking at raw numbers, there are a lot more patients with back pain, that progress through the system of medical/conservative management and require surgical treatment (decompression/stablization etc). Thus, across the board, the average neurosurgeon does do spine surgery, and in private practice, may do more spine than cranial, simply by population needs.
 
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What do you think is the best way to go about finding out if neurosurgery is for you? I am extremely interested in the field but am somewhat intimidated by the working hours (which I hear average around 88 a week) in residency and more intimidated by the idea of having to work >75-80 hours a week as an attending ( which I've heard isn't necessarily the norm anymore but a possibility based on the contract you get). I've shadowed a neurosurgeon but do you think taking call for a little while with the residents at my med school would help me see if it's a good fit for me?
 
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What do you think is the best way to go about finding out if neurosurgery is for you? I am extremely interested in the field but am somewhat intimidated by the working hours (which I hear average around 88 a week) in residency and more intimidated by the idea of having to work >75-80 hours a week as an attending ( which I've heard isn't necessarily the norm anymore but a possibility based on the contract you get). I've shadowed a neurosurgeon but do you think taking call for a little while with the residents at my med school would help me see if it's a good fit for me?

I would contact the residency coordinator or some of the residents and try to arrange to shadow. Starting in attending clinic and/or the OR would give you an idea if you like it. When you're in your 3rd year, do a rotation, take call. As a 4th year, do sub-internships and try on residency for a month at a time.

What about it interests you? I suspect it interests most people, on some level.
 
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Hi everybody. I noticed interest in the discussion with resident/intern from general and vascular surgery and wanted to offer some insight on another surgical sub-specialty, neurosurgery. Feel free to ask away regarding whatever questions you may have from general what do we do questions to how to lay plans to pursue this field. I'll try to check back and get to each of your questions, feel free to PM me for anything you don't want to ask in a public forum. Also, there is an attending in the neurosurgery forum writing from his perspective: Answering Questions - Recent Neurosurgery Graduate

I am not sure if anyone has asked you this yet but what was your typical day like. I spoke to a physician and they said that the long hours of residency are going to be cut down in the future due to burn out and residents needing more sleep. Has this happened yet? Also, I have wanted to pursue neurosurgery for a couple of years now but I am scared and might just end up pursuing neurology.
 
I am not sure if anyone has asked you this yet but what was your typical day like. I spoke to a physician and they said that the long hours of residency are going to be cut down in the future due to burn out and residents needing more sleep. Has this happened yet? Also, I have wanted to pursue neurosurgery for a couple of years now but I am scared and might just end up pursuing neurology.

The day as an attending vs a resident is vastly different. Likewise, the day between a junior and senior resident, or two different attendings, is vastly different. I tend to take it rather easy now, do mostly elective cases, or schedule urgent cases when I'm on call, and stay out of the trauma call and stroke call as much as possible.

So far as I know, residents still work tough hours. There really is no escaping this in a surgical sub-specialty. The options are to cut hours and "be happier," and extend training, or tough it out, be miserable, and live through it. There is not a right or wrong answer. Even so, after 6 or 7 years, I was ready to be done, and the thought of having to do a fellowship afterwards just to be competent, as opposed to choosing to because it interests you, is not appealing.
 
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Hi Neusu, For someone who is very interested in neuroscience (but not the lifestyle of an NSG), but wants to do something more procedural that is potentially neuro-related, what would be some good specialties/sub-specialties?

Thank you!
 
Hi Neusu, For someone who is very interested in neuroscience (but not the lifestyle of an NSG), but wants to do something more procedural that is potentially neuro-related, what would be some good specialties/sub-specialties?

Thank you!

Being interested in neuroscience does not necessarily beget an interest in neuro-related specialties. The neuro in neuro-related specialties is pretty much just neuroanatomy unless you do basic science research. Having said that, if you love neuroanatomy, neuro-IR is procedural and neuro related, and neuro-rads is another less procedural option. In my experience, most nsg residents who drop out because of lifestyle end up in neuro-rads.
 
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Hi Neusu, For someone who is very interested in neuroscience (but not the lifestyle of an NSG), but wants to do something more procedural that is potentially neuro-related, what would be some good specialties/sub-specialties?

Thank you!

You could do your PhD in neuroscience and molecular biology or anatomy and physiology. They do a fair amount of animal care as well as run assays or experiments. If your interest is neuroscience, this is probably the best way to go.

Neurological medicine, while based in and off of neuroscience, as stated by others, tends to be much more pharmacology and/or anatomy.

Can you clarify procedural? Would something like ECT or TMS be a procedure for you? If so, go to psych. How about LPs or pushing tPA? Neurology might be fun. Pushing wires and catheters in to body parts and watching on TV? NSGY/NIR/Interventional neurology? Using scalpels and cautery to fix spines and cut out tumors/clip aneurysms? Neurosurgery.
 
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Hey @neusu thank you for doing this. I read the entire thing as I am quite interested in NSG and found it extremely informative!

1) With Step 1 becoming Pass/Fail, what do you think residency directors will weigh heavily instead? Or do you think that they will mandate that Step 2 gets taken before applications?

2) A private practice NSG group I work for has a large database of patients. Is it possible to do clinical research through a private practice or would I have to rely on an institution?

Thank you for the insight!
 
1) I suspect the latter. They will want some arbitrary stratification, despite the test not being designed as such.

2) It is possible. Finding a research mentor who knows what they are doing, and can guide you, may be more problematic.
 
As a medical student, you will rarely have time to conduct basic science. If you can, and get a meaningful paper, great. Regardless, publish or perish. If you have a research experience, but do not have a paper from it, it does not matter for applications.

Out of curiosity, how many actual pubs per applicant are you seeing?

As in legitimate papers in which the applicant is at least 3rd author?
 
Hey @mmmcdowe and @neusu I was wondering if you could speak to how COVID is going to change the application cycle for this year. I know things are still up in the air, but where do you see this cycle headed? Do you think there will be a requirement for fewer aways?

Tough to say. Aways never were a requirement, however, they do help as external validation of your application. Currently, many medical students are restricted from clinical practice. If that continues through the fall, there may be no home rotations, either. Likewise, interviews may be affected by travel concerns. I'd like to say I had a great answer, but it remains unpredictable.
 
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How do you alleviate the anxiety/stress of possibly harming someone in such a delicate surgical specialty? I've always wondered how a neurosurgeon can stay so calm for hours and hours straight during surgery, fully knowing that even the tiniest slip can cause permanent brain damage, paralysis etc.

At least for other types of surgery it seems like accidental damage can be fixed or mitigated pretty well before it causes harm, but with the brain/spine, it doesn't appear to be that way.
 
Thanks so much for doing this @neusu ! I'm an incoming M1 this year, and am potentially interested in neurosurgery. I had a couple of questions (sorry if these were answered already!) -

(1) I've always been kind of paranoid with regards to blood-borne diseases / HIV etc. Both in general and compared to other types of surgery (e.g. ENT, general, vascular, ortho) how much of a risk do you think this is in neurosurgery in particular?
(2) If you have hobbies, that you plan to continue at a high level, which require very fine hand dexterity, is it best to avoid the field? Does neurosurgery wear on the hands after a while?
(3) I absolutely love research, but given how hospital physicians were treated during the COVID crisis I now have major reservations about going into academics and working at a hospital (I used to be set on academics). First, is private practice still viable in this field, and if so do you foresee it being this way 15-20 years from now? Second, if one does private practice, are there still ways of conducting good research / innovating in the field?
(4) If you're the type who needs at least 7 or 7.5 hours of sleep a day (or if you do pull an all-nighter, you need more sleep the next day), is it best to avoid the field?

Thanks again and greatly appreciate your feedback!
 
Ben Carson is awesome. Sanjay not so much

I wonder how Ben Carson is a neurosurgeon, politics aside. He just doesn't seem very bright.

Possibly they are both power-hungry and neurosurgery was the right fit. Then there's also Myron Rolle, NFL player turned neurosurgeon, which is completely mind-boggling but Ben Carson is one of his role models.
 
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