aspiring to become a surgeon w/ average grades?

[shreypete]

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hey guys, I'm currently entering into the 2nd semester of the 1st yr. I didn't do very well in the first semester and I'm quite depressed about that. However, I still want to aim for my long-term goal which is to become a surgeon (either cardiothoracic or neuro hopefully).

Do grades from the 1st year count during the selection process? or is it only from the clinical years? what are the kind of scores required in the USMLEs?

Also is there any criteria? as in do you have to be in the top 5% in your class or something?

I just think it's virtually impossible for me as I'm studying medicine in a foreign country (in Europe), and want to practice in the US....but I don't want that hurdle to keep me from aiming at my goal...

 

[Law2Doc]

hey guys, I'm currently entering into the 2nd semester of the 1st yr. I didn't do very well in the first semester and I'm quite depressed about that. However, I still want to aim for my long-term goal which is to become a surgeon (either cardiothoracic or neuro hopefully).

Do grades from the 1st year count during the selection process? or is it only from the clinical years? what are the kind of scores required in the USMLEs?

Also is there any criteria? as in do you have to be in the top 5% in your class or something?

I just think it's virtually impossible for me as I'm studying medicine in a foreign country (in Europe), and want to practice in the US....but I don't want that hurdle to keep me from aiming at my goal...

While everything counts, first year grades count the least. For a foreign educated student hoping to come to the US, boards are going to count more than anything else because that is the only thing you will have that compares you to the US students. You might want to check out the international med student forums to get a better sense of what scores folks needed to get to your target -- the allo board is largely populated by US allo students.

 

[Percival]

I'm in an American allopathic school, so I can't comment on the foreign bit, but I will tell you that I met a female neuro surgery resident who said she was in the BOTTOM 3rd of her class. I imagine she did pretty well on the STEP1, but it does tell me that her grades weren't a big factor. Of course, the fact that she's female doesn't hurt either.

I'm in the same boat as you. I want to pursue general surgery, but I'm pretty chilled about it. I'm putting all the work in that I feel like putting in right now. I'm going to hit the STEP1 hard. If that's not good enoug for 'em, then I'll chose another specialty.

 

[-Goose-]

The past is the past. Work hard and work smart from here on out, do your best, and don't look back. General surgery is very doable for a FMG/IMG, but it is going to be tougher than if you were a US grad (obviously).

Keep your nose to the grindstone and be willing to apply to prelim positions. Your hard work will be paid off. There is a poster in the surgery forums (Leukocyte, I think) that is an IMG doing a FM residency so that he'll be more competitive for surgery. Might want to shoot him an PM for advice.


Good luck.

 

[sendwich]

from what i've seen with 4th year and beyond, surgery is kind of at a shortage right now, so pretty much, if you're interested, you'll match somewhere (unlike rad or derm).

 

[-Goose-]

from what i've seen with 4th year and beyond, surgery is kind of at a shortage right now, so pretty much, if you're interested, you'll match somewhere (unlike rad or derm).

Not really true anymore. Last year, there was 1 unfilled spot in GS match.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

from what i've seen with 4th year and beyond, surgery is kind of at a shortage right now, so pretty much, if you're interested, you'll match somewhere (unlike rad or derm).

Ha! Derm shortage. That will be the day.

 

[njbmd]

hey guys, I'm currently entering into the 2nd semester of the 1st yr. I didn't do very well in the first semester and I'm quite depressed about that. However, I still want to aim for my long-term goal which is to become a surgeon (either cardiothoracic or neuro hopefully).

Do grades from the 1st year count during the selection process? or is it only from the clinical years? what are the kind of scores required in the USMLEs?

Also is there any criteria? as in do you have to be in the top 5% in your class or something?

I just think it's virtually impossible for me as I'm studying medicine in a foreign country (in Europe), and want to practice in the US....but I don't want that hurdle to keep me from aiming at my goal...

Do your best from here on out but don't decide on any specialty until you have completed a clinical rotation in it. There are loads of budding surgeons who are passionate about surgery until they have to actually "do" it. Keep an open mind and concentrate on the task at hand which is to do the best you can in your pre-clinical subjects and then tackle your clinical work.

from what i've seen with 4th year and beyond, surgery is kind of at a shortage right now, so pretty much, if you're interested, you'll match somewhere (unlike rad or derm).

Don't want to burst your bubble but getting a categorical surgical residency slot in the United States is pretty competitive. Last year, there was one slot left in the scramble and plenty of unmatched folks. There were some prelim slots but getting a prelim does not guarantee that you will be a surgeon.

 

[Re3iRtH]

hey guys, I'm currently entering into the 2nd semester of the 1st yr. I didn't do very well in the first semester and I'm quite depressed about that. However, I still want to aim for my long-term goal which is to become a surgeon (either cardiothoracic or neuro hopefully).

Do grades from the 1st year count during the selection process? or is it only from the clinical years? what are the kind of scores required in the USMLEs?

Also is there any criteria? as in do you have to be in the top 5% in your class or something?

I just think it's virtually impossible for me as I'm studying medicine in a foreign country (in Europe), and want to practice in the US....but I don't want that hurdle to keep me from aiming at my goal...

If you have average grades and want to be a surgeon, why don't
you aim for General Surgery, then maybe take it from there. Dreams are
nice but lets be realistic and take it one step at a time.

 

[sendwich]

Do your best from here on out but don't decide on any specialty until you have completed a clinical rotation in it. There are loads of budding surgeons who are passionate about surgery until they have to actually "do" it. Keep an open mind and concentrate on the task at hand which is to do the best you can in your pre-clinical subjects and then tackle your clinical work.






Don't want to burst your bubble but getting a categorical surgical residency slot in the United States is pretty competitive. Last year, there was one slot left in the scramble and plenty of unmatched folks. There were some prelim slots but getting a prelim does not guarantee that you will be a surgeon.

by "categorical surg res" i'm assuming you mean non-general surgery? i was referring more to gen surg res. I didnt mean to come off as a know it all (far from) and i'm not here to promote the "just slide by your classes" theory...by all means, do your best -- but from talking to several people who were in the bottom half of their classes and did mediocre on step 1, it just seemed like the average medstudent can go into this field, should he/she choose to.

 

[sendwich]

If you have average grades and want to be a surgeon, why don't
you aim for General Surgery, then maybe take it from there. Dreams are
nice but lets be realistic and take it one step at a time.

my point exactly.

 

[H_Caulfield]

I really thought just about all schools were pass/fail by now...

I don't think they're looking at grades for the few schools that still have them, because it's impossible to compare those grades to their other applicants' "P's"

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Why do you want to practice medicine in the USA? From what I hear on TV the healthcare in America sucks.

 

[Anka]

by "categorical surg res" i'm assuming you mean non-general surgery? i was referring more to gen surg res. I didnt mean to come off as a know it all (far from) and i'm not here to promote the "just slide by your classes" theory...by all means, do your best -- but from talking to several people who were in the bottom half of their classes and did mediocre on step 1, it just seemed like the average medstudent can go into this field, should he/she choose to.

Categorical means "categorical general surgery" spot. Categorical is the opposite of preliminary. It means you are guaranteed (barring you quitting or getting fired) to become a general surgeon. You match into a five year spot. A preliminary general surgery position, in contrast, is a one year committment for both you and the program. It is like a year long interview, and you are not guaranteed to become a surgeon.

A truely average US allopathic student can get one of these spots (i.e., 220 board scores, 50th percentile of their class, average med school). A below average student is by no means guaranteed a spot. But saying it's "not competative" or hurting for applicants is just way off the mark.

Best,
Anka

 

[njbmd]

by "categorical surg res" i'm assuming you mean non-general surgery? i was referring more to gen surg res. I didnt mean to come off as a know it all (far from) and i'm not here to promote the "just slide by your classes" theory...by all means, do your best -- but from talking to several people who were in the bottom half of their classes and did mediocre on step 1, it just seemed like the average medstudent can go into this field, should he/she choose to.

Categorical general surgery residency means that you start your PGY-1 year in general surgery and you finish the residency in Gen Surg (may or may not do fellowship). Preliminary means that you do PGY-1 in general surgery and move to another specialty such as anesth, rad, otho, neuro, ENT etc.

 

[shreypete]

Why do you want to practice medicine in the USA? From what I hear on TV the healthcare in America sucks.

I want to practice in the US mainly because I grew up there and my family lives there. If US is too hard an option for surgery, then I might just consider UK (where I was born).

 

[DoctaJay]

hey guys, I'm currently entering into the 2nd semester of the 1st yr. I didn't do very well in the first semester and I'm quite depressed about that. However, I still want to aim for my long-term goal which is to become a surgeon (either cardiothoracic or neuro hopefully).

Do grades from the 1st year count during the selection process? or is it only from the clinical years? what are the kind of scores required in the USMLEs?

Also is there any criteria? as in do you have to be in the top 5% in your class or something?

I just think it's virtually impossible for me as I'm studying medicine in a foreign country (in Europe), and want to practice in the US....but I don't want that hurdle to keep me from aiming at my goal...

Yeah, from talking to many upper classmates, the gist I've gotten is that the first two years basically prepare you for Step 1 (and really, mostly the 2nd year prepares you for step 1). The important parts of medical school are Step 1 and your clinical grades 3rd and 4th year. Everything else is just extra or it doesn't even really matter.

 

[mikedc813]

Yeah, from talking to many upper classmates, the gist I've gotten is that the first two years basically prepare you for Step 1 (and really, mostly the 2nd year prepares you for step 1). The important parts of medical school are Step 1 and your clinical grades 3rd and 4th year. Everything else is just extra or it doesn't even really matter.

I just was offered a radiation oncology residency position (outside of the match) and can give you my perspective regarding what is most important when applying to residencies.

1) Step 1 - One of the most important parts of your application. You must do well if you want to do something competitive. Many competitive programs (rad onc, plastics, derm, etc) use minimum score cutoffs. Many med students aim for a 230.

2) Class rank/grades - Equally as important. Do well in your courses...this will help you study for Step 1 at the same time. Your 3rd year grades are SO important. The 3rd year is weighted roughly the same as 1st and 2nd combined, based on the number of contact hours. Doing poorly during 1st year is not a death sentence. Try to forget that and do the best you can from here on out. It's possible to go from the bottom 1/3 of the class 1st year to AOA at the end of 3rd year.

3) Letters of rec - These can be vital to your application. If you get a letter from someone well-known in the field that sings your praises then that will help you out a lot. This is especially true in smaller fields like rad onc, ENT, derm, etc.

4) Research - This is not a must in most fields, but is in some like rad onc. Even if you want to eventually do internal medicine, doing some research and getting your name on a paper will help you distinguish yourself from the many other applicants out there. If you do want to do something competitive, I'd say it's a must to do a research project and produce something publishable.

5) Step 2 - This can help you if you do significantly better than Step 1. However, many people who score very high on Step 1 often wait to take Step 2 after the residency application process to not risk getting a lower score.


These are the main things you want to consider. I hope this helps.

 

[shreypete]

thanks a lot mikedc813. and what are the so-called observerships all about? How does one get to do them say in general surgery or any other sub-speicalities?

 

[Tired]

I just was offered a radiation oncology residency position (outside of the match) and can give you my perspective regarding what is most important when applying to residencies.

1) Step 1 - One of the most important parts of your application. You must do well if you want to do something competitive. Many competitive programs (rad onc, plastics, derm, etc) use minimum score cutoffs. Many med students aim for a 230.

2) Class rank/grades - Equally as important. Do well in your courses...this will help you study for Step 1 at the same time. Your 3rd year grades are SO important. The 3rd year is weighted roughly the same as 1st and 2nd combined, based on the number of contact hours. Doing poorly during 1st year is not a death sentence. Try to forget that and do the best you can from here on out. It's possible to go from the bottom 1/3 of the class 1st year to AOA at the end of 3rd year.

3) Letters of rec - These can be vital to your application. If you get a letter from someone well-known in the field that sings your praises then that will help you out a lot. This is especially true in smaller fields like rad onc, ENT, derm, etc.

4) Research - This is not a must in most fields, but is in some like rad onc. Even if you want to eventually do internal medicine, doing some research and getting your name on a paper will help you distinguish yourself from the many other applicants out there. If you do want to do something competitive, I'd say it's a must to do a research project and produce something publishable.

5) Step 2 - This can help you if you do significantly better than Step 1. However, many people who score very high on Step 1 often wait to take Step 2 after the residency application process to not risk getting a lower score.


These are the main things you want to consider. I hope this helps.

What you are describing here is the technique for matching as a U.S. student. The game is very different for IMGs.

OP, I would suggest you cruise down to the International Forum or get in touch with our esteemed mod Winged Scapula, who is an attending General Surgeon and IMG.

 

[TheLuckiest]

Best way to know your chances of matching into any field in particular is to check the data reports available from ERAS and NRMP. They will discuss success rates of AMG/IMG applicants overall, and also discuss the influence of research, board scores, AOA membership, etc etc. That should give you a much better idea of what is most important for your particular situation.