Assertive female med students

[curlycorday]

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Hi all,

I'm a first year and naturally, I am an assertive woman- i.e. I have no problem speaking up in clinical case conferences (with other first years, not like I'm mouthing off to an attending), etc... I am having trouble though, because it seems like all the female faculty at my school (administration) are really feeble, (straight out of the 50s with gogo boots and all) women and being assertive is seen as (suprise, their m.o.) "unprofessional."

Does anyone else have the same experience? And, have you had this experience in your clinical years?

Thanks in advance

 

[Labslave]

Hi all,

I'm a first year and naturally, I am an assertive woman- i.e. I have no problem speaking up in clinical case conferences (with other first years, not like I'm mouthing off to an attending), etc... I am having trouble though, because it seems like all the female faculty at my school (administration) are really feeble, (straight out of the 50s with gogo boots and all) women and being assertive is seen as (suprise, their m.o.) "unprofessional."

Does anyone else have the same experience? And, have you had this experience in your clinical years?

Thanks in advance

Let me first say that I have no problem with intelligent women (or men) who project their thoughts verbally with confidence. I think pretty much everyone feels this way. The problem is when idiots, of either sex, project their ideas with a ring of authority and assertiveness as if they were rulers of the world when what they're saying is all fluff and no substance (or has little to do with the topic of discussion, or if they're just showing off, or sucking up, or asking a pointless question, etc.).

I'll bet you that these women that you perceive to be too reserved don't think it's unprofessional at all for someone to speak up and be assertive if he/she has something important to say that is a valuable contribution to the conversation at hand. They may just happen to be of the reserved type and not willing to do it themselves, and that's that.

In other words, I would think that if you're getting dirty looks from your female superiors (and/or peers) or being criticized for your statements because they seem unprofessional, it's NOT because of your gender. It's because of the substance of what you're saying.

 

[Bertelman]

Along the lines of the previous post, I think it's great if you are comfortable speaking up, but maybe the problem is you're not so great letting others speak up. Do you have to be in on every discussion? I don't know anything about your groups, but if there are like 10+ students, and you are talking so much that many of them never speak, then yeah, that's a problem. Sit back. Listen. I'm sure your opinions are valuable, but give your classmates a chance, too. they worked as hard as you to get here, and you'll figure out as the year goes along that many of them have expereinces and knowledge that are very different from yours. It's best to learn from that, and you can't do that by asserting yourself into every conversation. Either way, your assertiveness will likely get you a few odd looks and poor reviews in third year, so now's a great time to learn to sit back, relax and let the others drive the car every once in a while. If you have been labeled as unprofessional, I can only imagine that you are actually interrupting your classmates trying to share their opinions. By the way, why are you "naturally" assertive?

Back to your question. I found that the administration at my school tends to be more of that nature, the ones that graduated from medical school in a time when there were certain expectations of women. Wait until your second and third years, when you will get more exposure to younger docs, even residents. You'll find some that are assertive like you.

 

[Twitch]

While there is insufficient evidence presented, perhaps it's not the fact that you're female and are assertive to speak up, but the fact that you're (overly/dogmatically?) assertive that annoys other folks?

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

I'm not sure what you mean by "it's seen as" (boo passive sentences). Have they pulled you off to one side after one of these PBLs and said so or do you just get that vibe. If it's the latter, I'd have to agree with the other posters. And if the faculty is annoyed you better believe your classmates are. If it's the former, don't sweat it. I predict at least five or six "professionalism" lectures to you guys by higher faculty for such crimes as *gasp* wearing sandals to class.

 

[curlycorday]

Alright, so I guess I didn't explain this very clearly. The administration at my school flat out told us that there are different expectations of female and male doctors-- which I agree with to a point. Patients have different expections; however, when it comes to how we interact as colleagues, I think there is room for all types of physicians. Specifically, we were working on a case where I was the only person in my group that took a particular stance (that there was a non-surgical treatment for ectopic pregnancy; specifically methotrexate). Basically, the administration member said that I should have just sat back and agreed with the group. But, I did have something valuable to contribute to the discussion, and I was correct.

So in response to you all, I do understand the problem with people who just like to hear themselves speak. However, I think the comment about the timing of medical education and expectations of women was more where I was going and it makes sense. So, thanks for that. I hadn't really considered that most of these people went to med school at a very different time-- nonetheless, I think they should be more open to students choosing their own style of practice, not necessarily following theirs.

Thanks for taking aim at me anyway. peace.

 

[curlycorday]

I'm not sure what you mean by "it's seen as" (boo passive sentences). Have they pulled you off to one side after one of these PBLs and said so or do you just get that vibe. If it's the latter, I'd have to agree with the other posters. And if the faculty is annoyed you better believe your classmates are. If it's the former, don't sweat it. I predict at least five or six "professionalism" lectures to you guys by higher faculty for such crimes as *gasp* wearing sandals to class.

OH yes, we've gotten the sandals in class lecture. This wasn't one of those though. good to hear others have to sit through the same b.s.

 

[Hodad]

I'm a first year and naturally, I am an assertive woman-

Damn, I love you already.

 

[indo]

I'm a first year too. When someone says they have no problem speaking up in clinical case conferences it means they won't shut the **** up during PBL case presentations long enough for anyone else to talk.

 

[indo]

by the way, as med STUDENTS we reserve the right to wear to class whatever the hell we step on when we roll out of bed.

 

[lobster M.D.]

OH yes, we've gotten the sandals in class lecture. This wasn't one of those though. good to hear others have to sit through the same b.s.

so glad i am in california, i think everyone wears rainbows or reefs to class, even when its raining, (no problems from the faculty), professionalism in the classroom is very different than professionalism in the clinic, and maybe we are just a little more laaaaaiiiiiiiddddd back here

 

[Anka]

There have been studies done (no, I'm not gonna go and cite them or even look them up again) that show that professors perceive that women talk a far greater percentage of the time than they actually do (i.e., if a female student and a male student both talk 50% of the time measured objectively offline on a tape recording of the section, the professor perceives the female student "dominated" the conversation and actually spoke about 80-90% of the time... if memory serves). All of which is to say, you may find your professor's perceptions to be very different than reality or your own perception. That said, you have to live in the world that exists until you have time to change it -- so here are a few thoughts:

1. Think carefully over what you want to say, and say it in as few words as possible using simple, declarative sentances. If it's not a question, don't ask it as one; drop your voice in pitch at the end of your declarative sentances. And I have to agree -- no passive sentances.
2. Make sure when doing point one that you speak loudly enough that you don't have to repeat yourself -- repeating yourself draws attention to how much time you are using, and also usually means you wind up talking over someone else. It also sucks when you say something, but not loud enough, and one of the male students then repeats the same thing and gets 'credit' for the idea.
3. Don't raise your voice (ever). If you raise your voice, it usually goes up in pitch, which makes you sound silly. It will also give some ammo to people who are trying to say you are being unprofessional (although men do it all the time). If you are being spoken over, focus on dropping your voice a bit (because it will probably go up in pitch when you get angry) and repeat yourself while staring pointedly at the person who is interrupting you. Alternatively, say, smiling at the person who interuppted you, "Jim, I must have sounded like I was finished. Let me finish this point, and then you can go ahead."
4. Sit at the front of the room, close to the leader of the section. This bridges the psychological distance. I think it works mainly by making the professor feel like you are having a conversation with him personally, rather than speaking publicly, thereby fiting more into the 1950s view of how women should communicate their ideas.
5. Have a close friend watch the interactions you're having, and comment on them. You need a very close friend to do this. Alternatively, use video or audio recordings to find out if there is anything that is particulary grating about the way you interact.
6. There are different expectations of male and female doctors, but you absolutely must get the best care for your patients, and being passive isn't what does that. You need to master a wide range of techniques, which, depending on the field you go into, may involve needing to take control of a room during a code, telling a subordinate "look this is an emergency, and you do exactly what I'm telling you to do." Cause guess what? Patients expect their doctors, male or female, to take care of them when they are sick.

The important thing is to make sure your voice is heard, and that the way in which you communicate your ideas doesn't alienate the people you are speaking to unless absolutely necessary. In the classroom, the stakes are low, but you need to practice for when you will be advocating for your patients (which will occur sooner than you think). Being a woman throws a bit of a wrench in the works, as you may not have the best female role models, but you should seek them out and try out some of the ways they do things.

Best of luck,
Anka

 

[xSTALLiONx]

Hi all,

I'm a first year and naturally, I am an assertive woman-

👎 I didn't read on because the rest probably boring candy coated attempt to make the OP feel OK about herself. You could tell from the first sentence that the OP is using the word "assertive" in the most politically correct way.. Why not just come out and say.. I'm a first year and naturally, I'm more bitchy than a red-headed stepchild?? You are just trying to fool yourself..

I would have stuck around to read the rest of the paragraph if you were true to yourself..

 

[78222]

I'm a first year too. When someone says they have no problem speaking up in clinical case conferences it means they won't shut the **** up during PBL case presentations long enough for anyone else to talk.

I completely agree. They are probably annoyed with you because you won't shut up, act like you know everything, and draw out things that would otherwise be cut and dry.

I mean, I guess its possible that there is another explanation, I just doubt it. Especially when you go around describing yourself as a "naturally assertive woman". Usually this is the key word for "annoying as hell girl that won't stfu".

 

[78222]

I'd wear sandals to class but a) I don't go and b) its too damned cold in the lecture hall to wear sandals.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Alright, so I guess I didn't explain this very clearly. The administration at my school flat out told us that there are different expectations of female and male doctors-

Maybe true, but I find it disturbing that your administration has told you this. It sounds like they're going to evaluate female students differently from male students, which is problematic (and possibly illegal). I would suggest getting involed with women's groups at your school if it has one and see if anyone else out there is feeling the same way as you. If you really feel like you'll get lower marks or a worse dean's letter, you might actually want to talk to a lawyer.

 

[racerx]

Hi all,

I'm a first year and naturally, I am an assertive woman-

OH, well. . .naturally. 🙄

That comes across similar to: I'm a first year and naturally, am hung like a horse.
WTF does being a first year medicall student have to do with being anything?

A deeper introspect may may reveal that: I'm a first year and naturally, am a pushy know-it-all? I have irritated all of the faculty and alienated all of my first year peers.

 

[78222]

It is possible that she goes to Loma Linda and has to bow before her male overlords.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Maybe true, but I find it disturbing that your administration has told you this. It sounds like they're going to evaluate female students differently from male students, which is problematic (and possibly illegal). I would suggest getting involed with women's groups at your school if it has one and see if anyone else out there is feeling the same way as you. If you really feel like you'll get lower marks or a worse dean's letter, you might actually want to talk to a lawyer.

I agree. Right now I think it's in the blow it off phase, but if sometime down the line somebody gives you a blatantly sexist eval it might require taking things to another level. As far as PBLs go, it might be tempting to show your stuff in front of everyone, but know when to cut it off and move on right or wrong. You argueing with the prof = everyone stuck there for more time, and you'll be labelled a cutthroat selfish gunner whether it's true or not. You'll be the only one without the super-helpful covert study guides M2 year, and no one will volunteer to take your patients if you have to leave early rotating through medicine third year.

 

[DoctorFunk]

I love how we turn a post that starts out to be an invitation to b!tch about backwards female faculty into an invitation to label a first year a gunner who dominates PBL groups.

Not that I disagree with this evaluation, mind you, I just can't help but think about the flamewar that would ensue if a post like this were in that hippie commune more commonly known as the Pre-Allo forum. We'd all be accused of wearing white bed linen to our all-male gatherings where we complained about modern women, Ally McBeal, and that Sex in the City show. Oh, and then they would tell us that we are going to be horrible doctors.

 

[78222]

I love how we turn a post that starts out to be an invitation to b!tch about backwards female faculty into an invitation to label a first year a gunner who dominates PBL groups.

Not that I disagree with this evaluation, mind you, I just can't help but think about the flamewar that would ensue if a post like this were in that hippie commune more commonly known as the Pre-Allo forum. We'd all be accused of wearing white bed linen to our all-male gatherings where we complained about modern women, Ally McBeal, and that Sex in the City show. Oh, and then they would tell us that we are going to be horrible doctors .

I usually just burn Ally McBeal in effigy, her and that emasculated sissy from Everyone Loves Raymond...NOT ME - I HATE RAYMOND!😡 😡

 

[evade]

Alright, so I guess I didn't explain this very clearly. The administration at my school flat out told us that there are different expectations of female and male doctors-- which I agree with to a point.

Sweet merciful crap, where do you go to school?! The women on our faculty are absolutely incredible. They're smart, they're on top of their game, and yes, they're assertive (but NOT arrogant; I think a lot of people get those two things confused). Our female admins are the same way. I don't find that there's any difference in expectations for men and women at my school, and I love it.

And no sandals in class? Appropriate rule if you're going to be in lab. Also appropriate if you'll be seeing patients or standardized patients, or generally acting like physicians. But for plain 'ol lecture? Roughly half my class on any given day, men and women both, comes to class in their sandals or flip-flops.

 

[Ypo.]

I completely agree. They are probably annoyed with you because you won't shut up, act like you know everything, and draw out things that would otherwise be cut and dry.

I mean, I guess its possible that there is another explanation, I just doubt it. Especially when you go around describing yourself as a "naturally assertive woman". Usually this is the key word for "annoying as hell girl that won't stfu".

Heh heh.

OP-just make sure you aren't only an assertive talker. Develop your active listening skills and get comfortable with not being in the driving seat. It's all about the teamwork...

 

[WhoisJohnGalt]

I think Anka is dead on. Moving from Smith (liberal feminist heaven) to med school in Oklahoma has definitely been a challenge for me, but you just have to realize that you're not going to change the world, even the world of medicine, overnight. For now, you just have to play the game, because trying to do anything about it in medical school is career suicide (at least in OK, I don't know where you are). Anka's advice is really great; you just have to suck it up for right now and do what you can to not get labelled "bitchy" by too many people. Regardless of the percentage of matriculating women that currently exist in medicine, it's still going to be a boy's club until the old men die off. In the meantime, do what you can to get the best education you can get until you actually get out in the real world and have some clout with changing it. Hang in there!

 

[racerx]

Sweet merciful crap, where do you go to school?! The women on our faculty are absolutely incredible. They're smart, they're on top of their game, and yes, they're assertive (but NOT arrogant; I think a lot of people get those two things confused). Our female admins are the same way. I don't find that there's any difference in expectations for men and women at my school, and I love it.

Same where I go to school. I can only speak to the basic sciences portion right now. In reality, the female faculty members kinda run the show, and very well I might add. Any courses with more than one professor seems to be run as full co-equals. One of my small group leaders is a pioneer in women surgeons, and definitely wouldn't take any sexist crap. That being said, she is also laid back and doesn't have to be the "look at me" star all the time. She lets her actions speak. Just her way.

To the OP. I find it hard to believe that any women faculty members attained their current level of professional success by being 1950's era wallflowers. Remember, everything is relative regarding different people and personalities. What you think is just an assertive person, regardless of gender, may be viewed by others, dare I say many others, as plain old pushy.

You may think you're assertive, others may thik you're pushy. Being a woman may have little or nothing to do with it. Also, perhaps you are so "overly-assertive" and identify so much more with being a woman than simply a fellow human being, that you notice laid back women more so than laid back men, and it infuriates you.

 

[Biscuit799]

It's funny that this should be the case. At my school, the female faculty are assertive to the point where many of the male students feel uncomfortable around them. Granted FSUCOM is a bit of a "new-age" school...

 

[samenewme]

Alright, so I guess I didn't explain this very clearly. The administration at my school flat out told us that there are different expectations of female and male doctors-- which I agree with to a point. Patients have different expections; however, when it comes to how we interact as colleagues, I think there is room for all types of physicians. Specifically, we were working on a case where I was the only person in my group that took a particular stance (that there was a non-surgical treatment for ectopic pregnancy; specifically methotrexate). Basically, the administration member said that I should have just sat back and agreed with the group. But, I did have something valuable to contribute to the discussion, and I was correct. ...

Thanks for taking aim at me anyway. peace.

I noticed that you said, "Basically, the administration member said..."

I think that you may actually have a style problem. You can be assertive, disagree with others, and get your point across without ruffling feathers unduly. Women suffer more than men do if they don't learn to do this, but in fact, it is a good skill for everyone to learn. John Molloy, the "Dress for Success" researcher, also did a fair amount of research on behavior that makes people successful, and it's not OVERT assertiveness. He said, in summary, "All the real killers are charmers."

Watch these women who graduated med school in the 50's, 60's, and 70's (it was still VERY MUCH a man's world then). As another poster said, they didn't get their positions by being doormats. They are stating their opinions, and making their points, but doing it in a way that makes them part of the team. It's hard to do, but it's very much worth learning. And that may be what your administrative member was really trying to tell you. Not to agree outright when you were right. But how to make your point without making such big waves that your colleagues tune you out with all your rightness.

 

[racerx]

. . .and it's not OVERT assertiveness. He said, in summary, "All the real killers are charmers."

. . .But how to make your point without making such big waves that your colleagues tune you out with all your rightness.

Yes! Great point Samenewme.

 

[crunchyhamster]

I'm a first year too. When someone says they have no problem speaking up in clinical case conferences it means they won't shut the **** up during PBL case presentations long enough for anyone else to talk.

haha, he speaks the truth!!!! 🙄

 

[CatsandCradles]

This is an interesting thread.

I guess it all depends on what school you go to. I'm sorry to hear that women are told to take a secondary and non-assertive position in your medical program.

But just to encourage you, there are medical schools that have many well spoken of female faculty. At my school the complicated physiology in the extrinsic nervous system and GI motility are taught predominantly by women, and they are brilliant. The men teaching physiology weren't that good. The women were clearly running the show.

The biochemistry department chair is a women too, but she has no clue how to use power point. Her notes are very good though.

Histology, also runned by a women teacher - but her test questions are very hard. WE are scared of her.

There are quite a few women in the anatomy department too, but I must admit that in anatomy, the men seemed to know what they were doing while the women instructors didn't seem to be so hyped up about anatomy as they were compared to the phisiology and biochem. But I probably don't know all the faculty well enough since some of my friends have stated that their favorite anatomy teachers were the women faculty.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

I don't think the OP is listening anymore...

 

[Dr Who]

The medical profession is a conservative one. Unfortunately for many women, there is still some divide as to gender expectations which basically means men and women can be evaluated differently and have different expectations. This is especially crucial in 3rd and 4th year where evaluations that might have a HUGE impact on your future career can and in many cases are subjective. Unfortunately there is not much that can be done about that without alienating the faculty and affecting your chances at getting into a decent residency program.
On the other hand, many women today equate assertiveness with being overbearing and/ or attention hog.

• Being assertive is NOT blurting out your opinion when its not asked for or wanted.

• Being assertive is NOT about speaking so much in PBL's and small groups that your classmates do not have a chance to speak or ar cowed by your agressiveness.

Being assertive is NOT imposing your opinion over others or speaking as if your opinion is more important than someone else's.

• Being assertive is NOT behaving as if you have a chip on your shoulder and have to prove to everyone that you are at or above their level.

• Being assertive means that you talk TO people instead of talking DOWN at them.

Many people (men and women) tend to think that being downright overbearing and unnecessarily competitive is the same as being assertive. In the end these people lose the respect of their peers as people see through their false bravado and see them for what they really are, people with fragile egos who feel the need to overcompensate and PROVE to everybody that they belong.

 

[Bertelman]

I don't think the OP is listening anymore...

...Too bad. I guess, naturally, she doesn't appreciate our assertiveness in assuming the true nature of her issues.

 

[Callogician]

I agree with ANKA's quote. In fact, I think that the male dominance and female submission paradigm is stronger than most people appreciate. Many leadership positions throughout society are monopolized by males. Most men I speak to [about this subject] have sexual dominance fantasies (including myself). I find that most females are submissive to most males in social interaction among peers. The media even seems to idealize male dominance.

Despite this, the opening poster's "assertive" might be a euphamism for "petulant, condescending, and domineering." The phenomenon ANKA describes would explain why people are neutral to you or turned off by your style, but if they actively dislike you, you are probably doing something other than just acting like a man.

I go to the medical should which was both the first and only women's medical college and last and only women's medical college. Our faculty is mostly women. My class is mostly women. That BS paternalism would never fly here (Drexel).

 

[beefballs]

what a load of crap. my lab partner is probably the smartest in the class, and she asks pertinent questions all the time, and never comes across as bitchy. Nor does she have a problem with people disliking her because she is polite and decent-she is respected for her abilities and no one believes she is bitchy. If people are thinking you are rude, maybe you should take a look in the mirror, instead of blaming it on some kind of sexism. I don't see anything like this. BUt of course I couldn't observe it because I am a guy-and there are studies that prove that it exists so it must right?

 

[samenewme]

what a load of crap. my lab partner is probably the smartest in the class, and she asks pertinent questions all the time, and never comes across as bitchy. Nor does she have a problem with people disliking her because she is polite and decent-she is respected for her abilities and no one believes she is bitchy. If people are thinking you are rude, maybe you should take a look in the mirror, instead of blaming it on some kind of sexism. I don't see anything like this. BUt of course I couldn't observe it because I am a guy-and there are studies that prove that it exists so it must right?

What does seem to be true is that men can get away with forceful, direct language and tone of voice that women can't. And that is kind of sucky. But it is possible for women to make their point in a way that does not get them branded as crazy, aggressive, and difficult. Such is life.

 

[Bertelman]

What does seem to be true is that men can get away with forceful, direct language and tone of voice that women can't. And that is kind of sucky. But it is possible for women to make their point in a way that does not get them branded as crazy, aggressive, and difficult. Such is life.

Yeah, that sucks. What also sucks is women who are able to use their looks and flirtatious behavior to deflect any question of their innate abilities, and thereby succeed in situations they should not.

Both genders are allowed their own set of tools. Work it like you own it.

 

[southerncomfort]

There are probably regional differences as well, for the gender issues. I would think that the coastal schools are more openminded than say, I don't know - without really knowing the more conservative schools, I don't want to offend anyone. Nebraska? are they conservative? LSU? hard to know.
QUOTE]

Interesting to use an assumption and stereotype in a thread about assumptions and stereotypes. I'm a woman. I'm at LSU. And no, I haven't run into any problems with sexist administrators or faculty. 🙄

Back to the OP's situation, I also wonder if this is more a case of not knowing how to intereact well in a group rather than sexism. There are a lot of people, probably more males than females, whom I've met who just don't know how to read social cues and interact well. They can't make a point without putting down the other person. They latch onto one tiny part of an idea without seeing the whole picture. They insist on their "facts", even when they are wrong, and automatically insist the other person is "wrong" for the mere fact that they said anything to the contrary.

This isn't just limited to med students, I've seen it in the workplace also; coming from years in research, there was nothing I hated more then a lab meeting in which someone was going to "prove" a really tiny point for two hours. It seems to be in people who are insecure in other areas (or all areas) and are determined to be "right" in something.

 

[hale-bopp]

Yeah, that sucks. What also sucks is women who are able to use their looks and flirtatious behavior to deflect any question of their innate abilities, and thereby succeed in situations they should not.

Both genders are allowed their own set of tools. Work it like you own it.

I totally disagree, I think when women use their looks and flirting to succeed, people know exactly what's going on. And it doesn't get you respect. What ACTUALLY sucks is people assuming that attractive women are less competent because they must have used their looks to get where they are. Also, I think there's a double standard - when men flirt to get what they want, it's being charming, when women do the same, it's being slutty or a tease (depending on whether they follow through).

 

[Callogician]

What also sucks is women who are able to use their looks and flirtatious behavior to deflect any question of their innate abilities, and thereby succeed in situations they should not.

I buy this to some extent, but I think that the true male equivalent of the female grievance in this thread is that men cannot show weakness. If a woman is intimidated, afraid, or depressed, she can express her emotions freely, and most people won't look down upon her. Men, on the other hand, are expected to be strong and stoic. Men bottle up their emotions and suffer silently. This is partly why we are several fold more likely than women to successfully commit suicide.

I met a forty something male at Salvation Army clinic who concretizes my point perfectly. He witnessed his wife shoot herself in the head with a shotgun while he was standing a few feet away from her. He ignored the traumatic event and refused to seek help...only to end up with crippling post traumatic stress disorder for years to come. He experienced symptoms every time he saw spaghetti because it reminded him of his wife's carcass. To deal with his stress, he turned to alcohol, destroying his friendships, hobbies, and career until he found himself a beneficiary at Salvation Army.

 

[beefballs]

What does seem to be true is that men can get away with forceful, direct language and tone of voice that women can't. And that is kind of sucky. But it is possible for women to make their point in a way that does not get them branded as crazy, aggressive, and difficult. Such is life.

this is stupid, the whole argument centers on personal perceptions. men get away with a more forceful tone of voice-what does this mean, What scale are you using to judge forcefulness of voice. I really don't get this whole notion, especially in academia, that sexism is alive and well everywhere. Yeah you have your occasional chauvenist, just like you have your occasional man-hating women. This isn't institutional, nor is it the norm. I stand by my original statement to the OP. I have been known to be obnoxious from time to time(honestly most of the time), I just don't use my gender as an excuse for it. (or imagined gender bias)

 

[78222]

I buy this to some extent, but I think that the true male equivalent of the female grievance in this thread is that men cannot show weakness. If a woman is intimidated, afraid, or depressed, she can express her emotions freely, and most people won't look down upon her. Men, on the other hand, are expected to be strong and stoic. Men bottle up their emotions and suffer silently. This is partly why we are several fold more likely than women to successfully commit suicide.

I met a forty something male at Salvation Army clinic who concretizes my point perfectly. He witnessed his wife shoot herself in the head with a shotgun while he was standing a few feet away from her. He ignored the traumatic event and refused to seek help...only to end up with crippling post traumatic stress disorder for years to come. He experienced symptoms every time he saw spaghetti because it reminded him of his wife's carcass. To deal with his stress, he turned to alcohol, destroying his friendships, hobbies, and career until he found himself a beneficiary at Salvation Army.

You think he would have been better off talking about it? Sometimes experiences are so bad that talking about them isn't going to do a damned thing to help you. Seeing your wife blow her brains all over the wall might be one of those events. Its not like seeking help is gonna scrape her brains off the wall and put them back in her head.

/Future surgeon
//feelings are for sissies

 

[Bertelman]

I totally disagree, I think when women use their looks and flirting to succeed, people know exactly what's going on. And it doesn't get you respect. What ACTUALLY sucks is people assuming that attractive women are less competent because they must have used their looks to get where they are. Also, I think there's a double standard - when men flirt to get what they want, it's being charming, when women do the same, it's being slutty or a tease (depending on whether they follow through).

Yes, the people observing can see exactly what is happening. Unfortunately, the sexist male under her spell has no idea what is happening. He has no idea he is treating the pretty girl differently, has no idea his expectations of her are less because he subconsciuosly believes that being pretty is enough, that he maybe doubts someone can be both pretty AND intelligent.

I think we have different perspectives based on our own experiences. I assume you are a woman based on your stance (I'll admit this assumption), which states men get away with flirtation more often than women. I really don't know how you can substantiate that claim, other than your own bias.

I actually have MORE respect for an attractive woman that is intelligent and talented, and in no way uses beauty to achieve her goals. I don't assume any attractive woman uses looks as a crutch. But you cannot deny that it happens every single day. Frankly, I don't fault those who use this- women or men. They've adapted to the special treatment they have recieved since junior high from people blinded by appearances.

 

[Callogician]

You think he would have been better off talking about it?

Yes. Many people experience worse things with fewer long term consequences.

Sometimes experiences are so bad that talking about them isn't going to do a damned thing to help you. Seeing your wife blow her brains all over the wall might be one of those events.

I disagree. Cognitive behavior therapy is proven to prevent progression to PTSD after a traumatic event (source: Am J Psychiatry 156:1780-1786, November 1999). I don't see why the severity of the event should bar the efficacy of counseling.

Its not like seeking help is gonna scrape her brains off the wall and put them back in her head.

Duh, but it might prevent someone from falling into major depression and becoming and alcoholic.

/Future surgeon
//feelings are for sissies

Lets say you are an attending physician someday, and you run a surgery rotation from time to time. If you have a male 3rd year medical student who is emotional and unconfident in his abilities, will you look down up these characteristics? More so than you would in a female? Do you think that men should be confident and masculine? Are women to be subjected to a different standard? Would you apply your "feelings are for sissies" comment to a woman?

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

if you arent assertive in this world, u'll get phuked.

but there is a difference between assertiveness and paranoia/extreme competetiveness. if i can find a girl who isnt paranoid and envious all the time, i'm cool....her opinions should be expressed, two minds are better than one.

 

[45408]

You think he would have been better off talking about it? Sometimes experiences are so bad that talking about them isn't going to do a damned thing to help you. Seeing your wife blow her brains all over the wall might be one of those events. Its not like seeking help is gonna scrape her brains off the wall and put them back in her head.

/Future surgeon
//feelings are for sissies

Bottling up your emotions is a detrimental defense mechanism that will lead to future, more severe problems than if the issue had been dealt with outright. Obviously, it's an incredibly traumatic event that will have seriously damaging effects, but it will be even more so if it's not addressed appropriately.

 

[78222]

Bottling up your emotions is a detrimental defense mechanism that will lead to future, more severe problems than if the issue had been dealt with outright. Obviously, it's an incredibly traumatic event that will have seriously damaging effects, but it will be even more so if it's not addressed appropriately.

It's worked for me so far

 

[78222]

Lets say you are an attending physician someday, and you run a surgery rotation from time to time. If you have a male 3rd year medical student who is emotional and unconfident in his abilities, will you look down up these characteristics? More so than you would in a female? Do you think that men should be confident and masculine? Are women to be subjected to a different standard? Would you apply your "feelings are for sissies" comment to a woman?

I would be annoyed with both of them equally. I don't see sex, some people tell me I'm a man, and I believe them because I stand up to pee, but I'm sex blind.

 

[samenewme]

this is stupid, the whole argument centers on personal perceptions. men get away with a more forceful tone of voice-what does this mean, What scale are you using to judge forcefulness of voice. I really don't get this whole notion, especially in academia, that sexism is alive and well everywhere. Yeah you have your occasional chauvenist, just like you have your occasional man-hating women. This isn't institutional, nor is it the norm. I stand by my original statement to the OP. I have been known to be obnoxious from time to time(honestly most of the time), I just don't use my gender as an excuse for it. (or imagined gender bias)

I can't remember the book I read on this, but women, to be at their MOST effective, do have to use more "hedge words" than men do, and can be at a disadvantage when negotiating because colleagues percieve them negatively if they try to play hardball in the same way their male colleagues do.

What I found in years of academic committee meetings is that I could disagree with colleagues and be respected and treated fairly if I smiled, used questions more than statements, added "I" language ("My concern about this issue is...") and added a little self-deprecating humor. It also helped to wear a suit with a skirt, and in a conservative color other than black or gray. I do think I had to do this more than my male colleagues did, but I don't think it kept me from doing my job. I was a pistol, but a nice, respected pistol, and I often won my unit concessions in contentious meetings without alienating colleagues. I'm not saying women can't be assertive, OR that we cannot be very successful, but I AM saying we should not model communication style on that of our male colleagues to do so.

Those very same older female faculty members some people think missed the feminist boat probably have a personal style that is well worth emulating. Remember that they obtained faculty positions at a time when medicine WAS very much a man's world.

I don't care if it's sexist or unfair or not. I don't have time to worry about that stuff and I can't fix the system even if it is broken. But I do know what works for me, and I don't think my experience is unique.

 

[Callogician]

I don't care if it's sexist or unfair or not. I don't have time to worry about that stuff and I can't fix the system even if it is broken. But I do know what works for me, and I don't think my experience is unique.

I don't think it's unique either. Good post.