Association of Anesthesiologist Staffing Ratio With Surgical Patient Morbidity and Mortality

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I love the optimism, but I fully expect the status quo wherein hospitals just brush mid-level fckups under the rug to continue. And I fully expect all the other not-devastating-but-not-that-great-either stuff to continue flying under the radar too. The other day had an EP ablation on a 25yo woman. As the tube goes in I get called away to another room. Experienced locum CRNA in there (10+ yrs exp) with a SRNA and we need an aline for the case so they get started on it. I get tied up and eventually when I make it back I see that between the two of them they've trackmarked both this poor lady's wrists....because the CRNA apparently doesn't know how to use ultrasound. The EP walks over and starts tapping his foot and of course I take look with the US and she's got a beautiful artery mid forearm and the line is in in 5 secs.

The thing is, this wasn't really a bad outcome here, per se. Short of a temporary radial nerve palsy the worst thing that happened to the pt was cosmetic + a bit of wrist soreness. But as long as the only thing that matters is whether the patient goes to sleep and wakes up (which given how safe anesthesia is nowadays even the most incompetent CRNAs usually don't kill anyone), the multitude upon multitude of this sort of bumbling, inept, inartful anesthesia care will get a pass.

I hope it was benign. I've taken care of a patient at our vascular hospital who had three pseudoaneurysms in different places on the left radial artery due to multiple "blind" sticks and likely failure to hold adequate pressure between attempts.

Agree with all of the above posts. I supervise/solo 50/50 in my practice at a big metro level I trauma hospital. My easiest, most stress-free days are two CABGs from 7:30-17:00. My most stressful days are running 1:4-1:6 giving my rooms breaks/lunch breaks with no help while putting out fires of varying size. The medicine is easy. The babysitting is the hard part.

Before anyone says anything about the practice, yes, I agree that running that amount of rooms is unsafe, IMO. Unfortunately, my wife and I are geographically limited in where we can be, and this is the lesser of all evils. We would move if we could (and we've thought about it for a while now), but it's tough to move farther away from family with young kids.

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Medical malpractice is the great equalizer. The standard for sharp MD only practice docs is the same as for MD supervisors of 4 CRNAs. Eventually those 1:4 ratios will have a bad outcome to someone of importance and then the curtain will be lifted. We need more Joan Rivers cases, or more specifically, more publicity regarding bad anesthesia outcomes. Most bad outcomes and closed claims are shielded from the public eye. We have simply been too good at saving patients from CRNA malpractice and everyone moves on due to no harm, no foul.

Remember when there was that bad outcome in Walnut Creek and the publicity it had due to the child dying? Just wait until people stop settling lawsuits, which allows all parties involved to deny any blame and hush money is paid out to the injured party or family. Wait until people demand loud and televised/recorded jury trials where CRNAs are forced to defend their "I always do things this way, irrespective of the age and comorbidities of the patient in front of me" practice. The population is getting older, sicker, and more and more cases are being done. It's innevitable. One multimillion dollar lawsuit due to negligent CRNA practice in a random hospital undoes 5+ years of "going withthe cheap CRNAs vs physicians salaries."

I have a bold prediction that sometime in the near future, a study will come out that is similar to "To Err is Human." It will be a followup to that study which will explore the outcomes between Physicians vs Physicians supervising Physician Extendors (PAs, CRNAs, NPs) vs Physician Extendors only. The results will be ugly for our non-physician "colleagues" and patients will demand physician only care. I'll happily be there to provide it ... for the right price.
Joan Rivers? That’s a total crna talking point lol

Before anyone says anything about the practice, yes, I agree that running that amount of rooms is unsafe, IMO.
It’s ok. Eventually a retrospective study will come out saying it’s unsafe and the whole practice of supervising too many rooms will go away because here in the US we believe in evidence based medicine 😊

Oh wait
 
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I’ve posted this before, but I will post it again:

Supervising cases is more challenging for ALL THE WRONG REASONS. The anesthetic management isn’t more challenging, it’s that you have to worry about if your RN is appropriately fed and watered, if the patient isn’t coding next door and you haven’t gotten a phone call, biting your tongue when you know they chose a less-than-ideal anesthetic plan but you don’t want to hurt their feelings so you let them do it their way.

Yeah, if those elements are what make supervisory jobs more challenging, by means you all should pat yourselves on the backs for doing something that the average PP MD-only anesthesiologist can’t :thumbup:
Yeah all that stuff sucks but I literally said in my post why it can can be more challenging. I see 3 or 4 times as many patients as I otherwise would so I see and diagnose and manage more complications. The cRNa's can be pretty terrible so I have to rescue them, which can be challenging. More nerve blocks, more risk stratification, more everything. It sucks but it makes you better. Don't pretend we just give lunch breaks all day, there is actual doctoring involved if you're doing it right.
 
Yeah all that stuff sucks but I literally said in my post why it can can be more challenging. I see 3 or 4 times as many patients as I otherwise would so I see and diagnose and manage more complications. The cRNa's can be pretty terrible so I have to rescue them, which can be challenging. More nerve blocks, more risk stratification, more everything. It sucks but it makes you better. Don't pretend we just give lunch breaks all day, there is actual doctoring involved if you're doing it right.
The key is you see more material. You deal with 4x the amount of patients that I do
 
There were no CRNAs involved in either of those cases (Joan Rivers or Walnut Creek) so not great examples.
It has less to do with CRNA involvement and more with bad outcomes getting publicity and forcing the public to think about something beyond where is my surgery and who is my surgeon. Next time a large pediatric case is schedule for someone of means in Walnut Creek, they will do a google search and ask more questions. The whole point is that we've gotten so good at fixing things and putting out fires, that not enough credit (if any) is given to those behind the curtain. That is both our blessing and in this over-marketed over hyped medical world ... our curse.

Most of us are perfectly happy to be invisible behind the curtain ... just until they substitute one of us with a nurse 78% as capable and equally invisible, then we cry foul.
 
Most of us are perfectly happy to be invisible behind the curtain ... just until they substitute one of us with a nurse 78% as capable and equally invisible, then we cry foul.
Never understood this mentality anyway. Isn't it proven that patients are less likely to sue their surgeon because they feel like they have a personal connection to them? Idk off the top of my head but I think I've seen a study to that effect. Assuming that's true, it seems prudent to try to actually make a connection if you're trying to avoid the line of fire. Hiding behind the curtains and hoping the patient never remembers you is self-sabotage.
 
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Never understood this mentality anyway. Isn't it proven that patients are less likely to sue their surgeon because they feel like they have a personal connection to them? Idk off the top of my head but I think I've seen a study to that effect. Assuming that's true, it seems prudent to try to actually make a connection if you're trying to avoid the line of fire. Hiding behind the curtains and hoping the patient never remembers you is self-sabotage.
This specialty draws a lot of introverts or people with poor interpersonal skills.
 
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This specialty draws a lot of introverts or people with poor interpersonal skills.
which is odd because you have to be able to handle a multitude of people effectively to be successful as an anesthesiologist
 
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I think the discussion in this thread says it all. This article is miles better than any equivalency study the AANA has been able to come up with. Their best argument to spin this is having an anesthesiologist and a CRNA together leads to bad care, which would be an asinine argument (not that they wouldn't do that). Heck it would be interesting to see how many 1:2 ratios in this study involved residents vs just CRNAs.

That said, you have anesthesiologists in this thread bashing the results and degrading their own value to patient care because it makes them feel better about themselves and the financial gains they've made over the years. I've practiced solo, 1:2 with residents, and anywhere from 1:2 with CRNAs to 1:6. There's no equivalent between the care provided. It's night and day.


This recent article by the next president of the ASA says it all:
 
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well, i think most of us decided to do anesthesiology because we prefer not to spend a lot of time socializing with patients.
i guess the same can be said of pathology, radiology, etc
I thought it was so we dont have to do clinic or a lot of charting.
 
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Paywall.... Not a member
The origin of the title of my Leadership Perspective, for those of you unfamiliar with it, is a cartoon character named Pogo, dating back more than five decades. True historians may recognize it as a play on a famous quote by U.S. Navy Master Commandant Oliver Perry during the War of 1812, written in a letter to Major General William Henry Harrison: “We have met the enemy and they are ours.”
The origin of Pogo's quote was a poster that Pogo's cartoonist Walt Kelly made for Earth Day 1970, depicting Pogo in a wooded area, surrounded by litter strewn across the ground as far as the eye could see. The obvious message being that we are the source of many of our own problems.
As we assess the list of challenges facing physician-delivered and physician-led anesthesia care in the U.S., there is a component of “they are us” for at least one of the primary items on that list.
Some of you may not share my opinion, but I will go to my grave believing that the delivery of care in the supervisory model is inferior to a personally performing anesthesiologist or to a medically directing anesthesiologist practicing in the anesthesia care team. Supervision of nurse anesthetists in any alternative model that does not provide for the active engagement of the anesthesiologist in all aspects of peri-anesthetic care places the patient at increased risk of adverse events, from which they are less likely to be rescued (Anesthesiology 2000;93:152-63).
Each of us is likely aware of one or more examples of a medical direction and/or personal performance anesthesia group being displaced by a supervisory model, in which a much smaller number of anesthesiologists becomes responsible for covering the anesthetizing locations. I recognize that there are instances in which a medically directing model has been displaced for reasons other than to realize the economic efficiencies of diluting the anesthesiologists' presence, due to lack of providers or reasons aside from a reduction in anesthesia labor costs. However, I am also well aware of a number of examples where economic considerations appear to be the primary, if not the sole, driver of this dramatic change in anesthesia coverage.
I recently spoke with the leadership of an anesthesiology corporation that had been providing anesthesia service at their hospital for 50 years. When they encountered challenges with recruitment and retention of members of their group, the hospital administration chose to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for their anesthesia services rather than collaborate with the currently contracted corporation to pursue opportunities to improve recruitment and retention. Even though they had been providing high-quality care with a high level of efficiency, frequently medically directing in 1:4 ratios, they were displaced for what would seem to be purely cost-cutting reasons.
In the above scenario, one could point fingers in any number of directions, such as the hospital administration or the inadequate reimbursement rate provided by government payers creating the significant growth in health system financial support required for anesthesia services. However, in virtually all instances like the above example, the leadership of the new provider groups espousing the “efficiencies” of reduced anesthesiologist engagement in patient care is composed of, in whole or in part, anesthesiologists. Truly, one of our greatest enemies, in this case, is us.
To be clear, I am not referring to rural and underserved areas in which anesthesiologist-delivered anesthetics or medical direction in the anesthesia care team may simply not be feasible. However, the example above is a well-resourced suburb in which medical direction had been provided for decades.
The growing demand for anesthesiologists creates a new opportunity to set parameters on our service that may not have previously existed. I contend our patients and our specialty would both be well served if each anesthesiologist – particularly those who are decision-makers regarding the specifics of the care they will provide – acted in alignment with ASA's mission statement: Advancing the Practice and Securing the Future.
If each of us, as physicians trained in the medical specialty of anesthesiology, resolved to prioritize quality over economics, providing the level of anesthesia care we would want for ourselves or for our family, we would not only ensure better perioperative care for our patients, we would take “us” off our enemies list.
 
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The origin of the title of my Leadership Perspective, for those of you unfamiliar with it, is a cartoon character named Pogo, dating back more than five decades. True historians may recognize it as a play on a famous quote by U.S. Navy Master Commandant Oliver Perry during the War of 1812, written in a letter to Major General William Henry Harrison: “We have met the enemy and they are ours.”
The origin of Pogo's quote was a poster that Pogo's cartoonist Walt Kelly made for Earth Day 1970, depicting Pogo in a wooded area, surrounded by litter strewn across the ground as far as the eye could see. The obvious message being that we are the source of many of our own problems.
As we assess the list of challenges facing physician-delivered and physician-led anesthesia care in the U.S., there is a component of “they are us” for at least one of the primary items on that list.
Some of you may not share my opinion, but I will go to my grave believing that the delivery of care in the supervisory model is inferior to a personally performing anesthesiologist or to a medically directing anesthesiologist practicing in the anesthesia care team. Supervision of nurse anesthetists in any alternative model that does not provide for the active engagement of the anesthesiologist in all aspects of peri-anesthetic care places the patient at increased risk of adverse events, from which they are less likely to be rescued (Anesthesiology 2000;93:152-63).
Each of us is likely aware of one or more examples of a medical direction and/or personal performance anesthesia group being displaced by a supervisory model, in which a much smaller number of anesthesiologists becomes responsible for covering the anesthetizing locations. I recognize that there are instances in which a medically directing model has been displaced for reasons other than to realize the economic efficiencies of diluting the anesthesiologists' presence, due to lack of providers or reasons aside from a reduction in anesthesia labor costs. However, I am also well aware of a number of examples where economic considerations appear to be the primary, if not the sole, driver of this dramatic change in anesthesia coverage.
I recently spoke with the leadership of an anesthesiology corporation that had been providing anesthesia service at their hospital for 50 years. When they encountered challenges with recruitment and retention of members of their group, the hospital administration chose to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for their anesthesia services rather than collaborate with the currently contracted corporation to pursue opportunities to improve recruitment and retention. Even though they had been providing high-quality care with a high level of efficiency, frequently medically directing in 1:4 ratios, they were displaced for what would seem to be purely cost-cutting reasons.
In the above scenario, one could point fingers in any number of directions, such as the hospital administration or the inadequate reimbursement rate provided by government payers creating the significant growth in health system financial support required for anesthesia services. However, in virtually all instances like the above example, the leadership of the new provider groups espousing the “efficiencies” of reduced anesthesiologist engagement in patient care is composed of, in whole or in part, anesthesiologists. Truly, one of our greatest enemies, in this case, is us.
To be clear, I am not referring to rural and underserved areas in which anesthesiologist-delivered anesthetics or medical direction in the anesthesia care team may simply not be feasible. However, the example above is a well-resourced suburb in which medical direction had been provided for decades.
The growing demand for anesthesiologists creates a new opportunity to set parameters on our service that may not have previously existed. I contend our patients and our specialty would both be well served if each anesthesiologist – particularly those who are decision-makers regarding the specifics of the care they will provide – acted in alignment with ASA's mission statement: Advancing the Practice and Securing the Future.
If each of us, as physicians trained in the medical specialty of anesthesiology, resolved to prioritize quality over economics, providing the level of anesthesia care we would want for ourselves or for our family, we would not only ensure better perioperative care for our patients, we would take “us” off our enemies list.

Nice letter. I wish that ASA leadership would prioritize advocating for physicians- over their own personal business interests or local hospital relationships when serving in their leadership role.
 
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I think it CAN be done safely if you have staggered starts 15 mins apart and the rooms are close to each other and the mid-level follows your direction to a 'T" with no lippiness or this bull**** Im a crna im equal to you and studies show no difference. WIth those lippy crnas, NO it is not safe because they are rogue and useless to you. All you are doing all day is worrying about the stupidity they will do which will lead to unsafe care burnout and make your day a living nightmare. . So I agree in this situation it is NOT safe. BUt it CAN be if they accept direction.
That can only work for the first starts of the day. After that, how do you control when one case ends? Do you hold up patients going back because you want to keep everything staggered? Are the surgeons going to be understanding if the CRNA is ready to induce and you are in the middle of a block?
You don't, and you cant keep this imaginary "staggered 15 minutes apart" going all day long without pissing off some surgeons who wait on you. And admin never gives a **** about us as they do about them.
 
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You’re right, but cranking out cases like the OR is some meat grinder shouldn’t be the goal in and of itself. It’s why surgeons don’t have 4 first assists doing surgery while they float room to room pretending like they’re substantively involved.
These same surgeons are the ones who get pissed if the CRNA is waiting too long on a doc for induction.
The whole system sucks. I believe you are in academics where your ratios and pace are much more amenable to proper ACT rules.
 
These same surgeons are the ones who get pissed if the CRNA is waiting too long on a doc for induction.
The whole system sucks. I believe you are in academics where your ratios and pace are much more amenable to proper ACT rules.

It's only a recent development where our ratios have improved since historically we had a glut of CRNAs (due to a CRNA school) and a shortage of docs due to low pay. A few years ago the late and second late doc used to end up 1:4 and sometimes 1:6 routinely.
 
It's only a recent development where our ratios have improved since historically we had a glut of CRNAs (due to a CRNA school) and a shortage of docs due to low pay. A few years ago the late and second late doc used to end up 1:4 and sometimes 1:6 routinely.
Well that sucks. At an academic institution? Sounds crazy.
 
Do 15 min staggered starts exist in real life? So the 4th room starts 45min after the 1st room?
 
No but flip rooms, off-site, surgeon wanting to start at 8 not 7:30…I do 3-4:1 mostly and can’t tell if I’ve ever actually had 4 7:30 starts. Maybe 2 on average.
 
That can only work for the first starts of the day. After that, how do you control when one case ends? Do you hold up patients going back because you want to keep everything staggered? Are the surgeons going to be understanding if the CRNA is ready to induce and you are in the middle of a block?
You don't, and you cant keep this imaginary "staggered 15 minutes apart" going all day long without pissing off some surgeons who wait on you. And admin never gives a **** about us as they do about them.
That is correct, it can only work for the first starts. After that it would be unusual to have 4 inductions really close to each other.
 
Do 15 min staggered starts exist in real life? So the 4th room starts 45min after the 1st room?
No you could have 2 730 starts and 2 745 starts or 1 745 start and 1 800 start. This requires active presence of Anesthesiologists at the perioperative meetings something we abhor
 
No you could have 2 730 starts and 2 745 starts or 1 745 start and 1 800 start. This requires active presence of Anesthesiologists at the perioperative meetings something we abhor

That can only work for the first starts of the day. After that, how do you control when one case ends? Do you hold up patients going back because you want to keep everything staggered? Are the surgeons going to be understanding if the CRNA is ready to induce and you are in the middle of a block?
You don't, and you cant keep this imaginary "staggered 15 minutes apart" going all day long without pissing off some surgeons who wait on you. And admin never gives a **** about us as they do about them.

We try to stagger our starts, but regardless of when a case starts, an anesthesiologist is physically present for induction for every case - period. If that means we wait, we wait. The surgeons are aware of how we work. We've started at two new hospitals while I've been with this group, and the entire surgical staff gets a letter from the chairman of our department outlining how our practice works (medically directed ACT). We've done it our way for 40+ years and won't be changing.

There is no magic 15min between morning starts. We take the patient to the room when the room is ready and the surgeon is physically present. It doesn't take 15min to do an induction. We get the patient in the room, wired up, call the doc, doc comes in the room, we induce, airway of choice, induction is done. Actual doc in the room time is probably 3-4 minutes.
 
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We try to stagger our starts, but regardless of when a case starts, an anesthesiologist is physically present for induction for every case - period. If that means we wait, we wait. The surgeons are aware of how we work. We've started at two new hospitals while I've been with this group, and the entire surgical staff gets a letter from the chairman of our department outlining how our practice works (medically directed ACT). We've done it our way for 40+ years and won't be changing.

There is no magic 15min between morning starts. We take the patient to the room when the room is ready and the surgeon is physically present. It doesn't take 15min to do an induction. We get the patient in the room, wired up, call the doc, doc comes in the room, we induce, airway of choice, induction is done. Actual doc in the room time is probably 3-4 minutes.
You can get tied up for any variety of reasons that i wont bring up here
 
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You can get tied up for any variety of reasons that i wont bring up here

You can have a colleague who is free to do the induction..not every case is GA. As for academics and pissed off surgeons... I can only share with you my observation - They expect private practice speed anesthesia while being some of the slowest surgeons on this planet. If they can't do a 30 min appy they should stfu
 
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You can have a colleague who is free to do the induction..not every case is GA. As for academics and pissed off surgeons... I can only share with you my observation - They expect private practice speed anesthesia while being some of the slowest surgeons on this planet. If they can't do a 30 min appy they should stfu

It's incredible how much we've normalized our diminished role that we don't even blink about the prospect of having to call another anesthesiologist - who's never seen the pt before and who didn't come up with the anesthetic plan - to start your room because you're tied up.

Imagine a pt having the surgeon meet and greet in the morning but when they get wheeled into the OR some other schlub is scrubbed in and says he's the one doing the liver resection.
 
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It's incredible how much we've normalized our diminished role that we don't even blink about the prospect of having to call another anesthesiologist - who's never seen the pt before and who didn't come up with the anesthetic plan - to start your room because you're tied up.

Imagine a pt having the surgeon meet and greet in the morning but when they get wheeled into the OR some other schlub is scrubbed in and says he's the one doing the liver resection.

I'm not telling them to take over my case, or all the nuiances of anesthetic planning, just to do the induction sequence and intubate with the resident or midlevel. What the other attending need to know is plan to intubate, drugs to intubate, and special considerations based on comorbidities. That takes 30 seconds to communicate. I also won't do this for cases that are requires a lot of induction planning.
 
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I'm not telling them to take over my case, or all the nuiances of anesthetic planning, just to do the induction sequence and intubate with the resident or midlevel. What the other attending need to know is plan to intubate, drugs to intubate, and special considerations based on comorbidities. That takes 30 seconds to communicate. I also won't do this for cases that are requires a lot of induction planning.

Yeah....one of the most important (if not the most important) parts of the case is being done by another MD. Again, any surgeon in the hospital can make a laparotomy incision but outside of trauma/ACS you don't see one surgeon starting another surgeon's case.

Listen, I do the same thing and I usually don't think twice about it, but it's still sad commentary about how apparently interchangeable we are, and ultimately I think it (along with a couple other thousand things) contributes to the perpetuation of the meat grinder supervisory anesthesia model.
 
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Yeah....one of the most important - if not the most important - part of the case is being done by another MD. I do the same thing and I usually don't think twice about it, but it's still sad commentary about how apparently interchangeable we are.

🤷‍♂️ Would I rather do it myself? Of course.

You've never seen a surgeon operate on another surgeon's patient?

How about an OB delivering another OB's patient?

You've never seen another physician see a patient on behalf of someone else?
 
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🤷‍♂️ Would I rather do it myself? Of course.

You've never seen a surgeon operate on another surgeon's patient?

How about an OB delivering another OB's patient?

You've never seen another physician see a patient on behalf of someone else?

You were too quick and quoted my post before my edit where I said trauma/ACS surgeons cover other's cases. Same goes for OBs as you say. The difference is they do it for things like intubated SICU washouts, traumas, after hours cases, or emergency deliveries and sections, etc.

For an elective 7am section, does the OB meet the woman morning of and then have their colleague start the incision? Does any other surgeon do that for elective OR cases? Do GIs in a group just pool together on Monday morning and then bang out every colonoscopy and EGD on the board no matters whose patient it is? Of course not....because apparently the physician who initiated the physician-patient relationship taking part in the most critical part of the procedure only matters to everyone but anesthesiologists.
 
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You were too quick and quoted my post before my edit where I said trauma/ACS surgeons cover other's cases. Same goes for OBs as you say. The difference is they do it for things like intubated SICU washouts, traumas, after hours cases, or emergency deliveries and sections, etc.

For an elective 7am section, does the OB meet the woman morning of and then have their colleague start the incision? Does any other surgeon do that for elective OR cases? Do GIs in a group just pool together on Monday morning and then bang out every colonoscopy and EGD on the board no matters whose patient it is? Of course not....because apparently the physician who initiated the physician-patient relationship taking part in the most critical part of the procedure only matters to everyone but anesthesiologists.


Seems like a factory production mentality which is apparently fine for a lot of people. Efficiency>>doctor patient relationship.

What happens when patients need lines/blocks?
 
You were too quick and quoted my post before my edit where I said trauma/ACS surgeons cover other's cases. Same goes for OBs as you say. The difference is they do it for things like intubated SICU washouts, traumas, after hours cases, or emergency deliveries and sections, etc.

For an elective 7am section, does the OB meet the woman morning of and then have their colleague start the incision? Does any other surgeon do that for elective OR cases? Do GIs in a group just pool together on Monday morning and then bang out every colonoscopy and EGD on the board no matters whose patient it is? Of course not....because apparently the physician who initiated the physician-patient relationship taking part in the most critical part of the procedure only matters to everyone but anesthesiologists.

I do not disagree with you, but as @nimbus has said there is a factory production mentality and other OR efficiency metrics that weigh heavily on how practices work in real life. If I am stuck with a tough induction, and I reckon it would take me 15 minutes or more to be available, I think about calling for help with starting my other room. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, and I like to think of it as being adaptable in unexpected situations. I would love to be there for induction and intubation for 100% of my patients, but sadly I am only there 98% of the time, and the other 2% of the time are with another qualified anesthesiologist for otherwise reasonably healthy and uncomplicated intubations. I wouldn't put a colleague in the unenviable situation of inducing a trainwreck case for me.

I think the same criticism can be said for OR hand-offs. Which is probably not so much an issue with private practice eat what you kill anesthesiologists, but it is an issue with employed anesthesiologists in large hospital systems. I would love to be there from start to finish for every case, but the system does not pay me to stay 3 hours over my scheduled shift rather than handing off to the on-call anesthesiologist. We do what we can and minimize the number of said hand-offs.
 
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Seems like a factory production mentality which is apparently fine for a lot of people. Efficiency>>doctor patient relationship.

What happens when patients need lines/blocks?

I thought a lot of people go into our field because they want to limit such doctor patient relationships.
 
Yeah....one of the most important (if not the most important) parts of the case is being done by another MD. Again, any surgeon in the hospital can make a laparotomy incision but outside of trauma/ACS you don't see one surgeon starting another surgeon's case.

The most important part of the case is the intubation? Hmmm I don't know if I can agree with that statement. Seems like what a surgeon would say. I guess we just sit back and do nothing after that.
 
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I do not disagree with you, but as @nimbus has said there is a factory production mentality and other OR efficiency metrics that weigh heavily on how practices work in real life.

I'm glad you agree. I work within the system, I get it. I know it's a big machine that's hard to change. My point was merely that as anesthesiologists on an anonymous forum, this should be the last place where we normalize the "supervise multiple rooms and don't blink when someone else does your induction" mentality.
 
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The most important part of the case is the intubation? Hmmm I don't know if I can agree with that statement. Seems like what a surgeon would say. I guess we just sit back and do nothing after that.

Lol, what're you trying to gain by putting words in my mouth and throwing out stupid strawmen about sitting back and doing nothing after induction? I'm one of the people here advocating for MD only and less supervision so your comparison to the clueless surgeon seems hilariously misplaced.

But anyway, there are parts of an anesthetic which are more critical than others. That's a simple fact. It's why the TEFRA rules for direction include language about " *personally participating* in the most demanding aspects of the anesthesia plan including induction and emergence if applicable." Induction and failed airways is also the part of the anesthetic responsible for the most claims in the ASA closed claims database. Acknowledging the special place induction holds doesn't mean anyone is disparaging how much care the rest of the anesthetic takes.
 
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It's incredible how much we've normalized our diminished role that we don't even blink about the prospect of having to call another anesthesiologist - who's never seen the pt before and who didn't come up with the anesthetic plan - to start your room because you're tied up.

Imagine a pt having the surgeon meet and greet in the morning but when they get wheeled into the OR some other schlub is scrubbed in and says he's the one doing the liver resection.
I was told some of the Kaiser hospitals the surgeons doing the Total Joint meets them that day in preop. Not sure if this is true.

Also - some GI surgicenters the Family Med doc refers or PA books. The GI doc meets them that day in the OR.
 
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🤷‍♂️ Would I rather do it myself? Of course.

You've never seen a surgeon operate on another surgeon's patient?

How about an OB delivering another OB's patient?

You've never seen another physician see a patient on behalf of someone else?
Except they don’t meet them in the OR. They meet them
Preop, review the case, plan and discuss the case with the patient.
Not naked except for a gown on the OR table. Big difference.
 
The most important part of the case is the intubation? Hmmm I don't know if I can agree with that statement.
Its not the only important thing but a lot of people would say it IS the most important thing as if you **** that up, you dont have anything else
 
I was told some of the Kaiser hospitals the surgeons doing the Total Joint meets them that day in preop. Not sure if this is true.

Also - some GI surgicenters the Family Med doc refers or PA books. The GI doc meets them that day in the OR.
For screening colonoscopies, most of our GI docs meet the patient for the first time in the procedure room. Their rationale is for a screening colonoscopy, there's no need for a pre-op office visit.

Almost all of our lap appys and lap choles that come in through the ER get admitted to the IM house doc on call, and then meet their surgeon in the pre-op area the next morning. They'll only meet them ahead of time (maybe) if they're going to be done urgently.

As far as OB - most of our OB docs cede all their OB patient care to the "OB hospitalist" on call any time outside of 7a-5p Mon-Fri. Routine deliveries are often handled by the midwives, but more complicated deliveries or C-sections are done by the OB hospitalist who will never have met the patient prior to their delivery because they're strictly hospital employees and not part of any OB practice.
 
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For screening colonoscopies, most of our GI docs meet the patient for the first time in the procedure room. Their rationale is for a screening colonoscopy, there's no need for a pre-op office visit.

The actual rationale is that Medicare and other payors don't pay for a clinic visit for screening colos. It's assumed to be included as part of the procedure payment. Regardless, the GI who makes the introduction is the one actually doing the procedure day of, right?

Almost all of our lap appys and lap choles that come in through the ER get admitted to the IM house doc on call, and then meet their surgeon in the pre-op area the next morning. They'll only meet them ahead of time (maybe) if they're going to be done urgently.

At what point is the surgical consult note put in and the case request booked? You're telling me a patient is admitted overnight, booked, and brought to pre-op.... but a surgeon hasn't even laid eyes on them? I think you're missing some details there, but regardless, at some point they meet their surgeon...and then the surgeon they meet is the one who actually does the procedure, right?

As far as OB - most of our OB docs cede all their OB patient care to the "OB hospitalist" on call any time outside of 7a-5p Mon-Fri. Routine deliveries are often handled by the midwives, but more complicated deliveries or C-sections are done by the OB hospitalist who will never have met the patient prior to their delivery because they're strictly hospital employees and not part of any OB practice.

As discussed previously, traumas and after hours care is a different beast. For instance, pts being preopped in the ED or ICU or L&D by a float anesthesiologist for an emergent or urgent case should be told and shouldn't necessarily have the expectation that that person pre-opping them will be the one doing the case.

On the other hand, a pt coming in for a totally elective case absolutely should have the expectation that the MD who preopped them and went over the anesthesia plan will be the one actually there for the critical portions.
 
Its not the only important thing but a lot of people would say it IS the most important thing as if you **** that up, you dont have anything else

Let's reframe this. I pose two questions that are similar but not equal.

Is this statistically one of the riskier times of the general anesthetic? Due to possibly failed intubation, etc. Yes.

Is it more risky for the patient to have me inducing and intubatjng the patient, vs to have another anesthesiologist help out by inducing and intubating that patient? I would say No.
 
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I don’t think anyone on this forum (or in real life) can sit there with a straight face and, in good faith, argue that having someone else, who has never met the patient before, perform what is likely the most critically important aspect of our job for an elecrive operation is in any way ideal or optimal for patient care. Nor is it what any of us would want for a loved one or ourselves. It’s done to facilitate keeping the day moving and surgeons happy, no other reason. Is it safe most of the time? Sure, until something important gets missed in that 5s hand off. Anyone on here arguing that it’s 100% equivalent to the physician who pre-popped them putting them to sleep is just trying to make themselves feel better about the realities of practicing in a less than ideal environment.
 
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its a problem when anesthesiologists even say we are interchangeable for induction/intubation, which is considered a critical event. if we dont need one for induction/intubation, which part do we need? to sit during maintenance? to place IV? arterial line? extubation?

if even anesthesiologist think we are interchangeable, even for healthy patients, then you bet people will notice. the next change will be hospitals/nurses fighting for independent CRNA practice for healthy patients. then there goes many of your jobs, or you will be covering sick patients only

i have never seen a surgeon cover for another for a non emergent case , when the scheduled surgeon has already spoken/consented to the patient. i dont even think another surgeon is allowed to if not on the consent form. emergencies are different. deliveries are not elective. traumas are not.

also the ASA article says except for rural areas. but why cant we get anesthesiologists to rural areas but we can get surgeons? i dont see midlevels mainly during surgeries alone in rural areas? if they can recruit surgeons, why cant they recruit anesthesiologists? i see primary care even paying insane salaries for rural areas because they need coverage. the only reason they cant hire anesthesiologists is because they dont want to pay the $ required.
 
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its a problem when anesthesiologists even say we are interchangeable for induction/intubation, which is considered a critical event. if we dont need one for induction/intubation, which part do we need? to sit during maintenance? to place IV? arterial line? extubation?

if even anesthesiologist think we are interchangeable, even for healthy patients, then you bet people will notice. the next change will be hospitals/nurses fighting for independent CRNA practice for healthy patients. then there goes many of your jobs, or you will be covering sick patients only

i have never seen a surgeon cover for another for a non emergent case , when the scheduled surgeon has already spoken/consented to the patient. i dont even think another surgeon is allowed to if not on the consent form. emergencies are different. deliveries are not elective. traumas are not.

also the ASA article says except for rural areas. but why cant we get anesthesiologists to rural areas but we can get surgeons? i dont see midlevels mainly during surgeries alone in rural areas? if they can recruit surgeons, why cant they recruit anesthesiologists? i see primary care even paying insane salaries for rural areas because they need coverage. the only reason they cant hire anesthesiologists is because they dont want to pay the $ required.
Rural pass-through legislation is a law that reimburses hospitals for hiring non-physician anesthesia providers. It makes it cheaper to recruit CRNAs to rural areas. Hence why it is easier to get surgeons there but not anesthesiologists.

 
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Rural pass-through legislation is a law that reimburses hospitals for hiring non-physician anesthesia providers. It makes it cheaper to recruit CRNAs to rural areas. Hence why it is easier to get surgeons there but not anesthesiologists.

i know that part. i mean one of the point of the blog post is about it 'shouldn't' be all about financial decision. it's probably cheaper to hire a PA to perform a surgery than surgeon as well but they are still hiring the surgeon. the problem is everyone thinks we are replaceable by nurses, or at least it is OKAY to replace us with nurses.
 
i know that part. i mean one of the point of the blog post is about it 'shouldn't' be all about financial decision. it's probably cheaper to hire a PA to perform a surgery than surgeon as well but they are still hiring the surgeon. the problem is everyone thinks we are replaceable by nurses, or at least it is OKAY to replace us with nurses.
Until somebody is dying.
 
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