ASTRO Blog Post from Dr. Harari

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Are you really trying to imply that the decreases in radiation indications/schedule for breast and prostate are made up for a recent phase II abstract presented at ASTRO this past year for SBRTing oligomets?

I think what the other poster was trying to get at is where was RO leadership when med onc tried to make AI the preferred adjuvant tx in early stage breast in older patients? For the record, I've treated a handful of patients where they refused or didn't tolerate AI therapy.

Why does the NCCN talk about omitting rt but not AI therapy in that population?

Again, moving the goalposts.

First point he made (and others have parroted) -- "only rad onc does de-escalation!". Totally false.
Next point he made -- "no research has been done to expand the indication for rad onc" Again, totally false. There's not just the SABR-COMET trial (which btw is coming out in Lancet...so yes just a phase II abstract at ASTRo *eyeroll*), but STAMPEDE which IS in the new NCCN guidelines to allow RT to prostate primary in metastatic disease. There's also the MDACC trial of local therapy for metastatic disease that responds to treatment (which is being published soon) and the STOMP trial for oligometastatic prostate cancer (already published in JCO) and the ORIOLES oligometastatic prostate cancer trial (accrued). Just because your particular groups apparently don't refer these patients doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere, let alone that the research has not been done.

Not to mention the false idea that reduced # of fractions = reduced # of patients. The problem is residency expansion, not research designed to make our treatments more appropriate and convenient.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
For what it’s worth, I will make a small comment with regards to the market in Canada. We all know there was overtraining if RO residents there for a while, basically necessitating fellowship, often 2 even or more before full time employment. Then programs decided to go from almost 30 residents/year, to just over 20. They resisted transfers in as well. This was a group decision that people abided from. Now in a publically funded health system, there is a much stronger argument to be good stewards of healthcare resources, and the words “anti-trust” were not on anyone’s mind. As I understand, the market there is just starting now to bounce back and there is consideration of increasing training spots once more.

Because RO is such a small field up North, there has been a lot of work looking at employment projections and RT utilization using precise numbers. As I understand from my contacts there, the latest analysis shows the biggest influence in number of RO attending positions there has been shown to not as much correlate as much as amount of grads entering the marketplace, but rather to be much more sensitive to utilization patterns. So there may be some truth that an increase in SBRT cases may offer some reprieve to the market. Heck, if arrhythmia treatments are shown to be effective that may be a large treatment population and reverse some of these trends (for at least a time).

Certainly they are two separate markets, with Canada famously employing more breast hypofractionation, and treatment reimbursement, incentives, and most spots being academic, stand that practice patterns are much different. But I believe there to be at least some truth that utilization plays a role for demand for RO services, but is it enough for the large influx of residents, and enough to stave off trends to increased hypofractionation here? That’s a much harder nut to crack.
 
Not to mention the false idea that reduced # of fractions = reduced # of patients. The problem is residency expansion, not research designed to make our treatments more appropriate and convenient.

Agreed. But that again is the fault of RO academic leadership who've been asleep at the wheel until this past week.

And AFAIK, xrt in M1 prostate CA still isn't the NCCN Guidelines. So not mainstream yet.

I'm sure I'd be vilified as a community doc for treating pts like that
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
It's all contextual.

If losses in volume/indications in one place, are equaled or exceeded by expansion in volume/indications in another, you have a healthy and growing field of medicine. If you keep proving that less patients need your services, and those that do need MUCH less of your services without Part B of the above equation, you're actively diminishing the importance of your field. I'm not even saying that's the wrong thing to do. It's obviously the opposite for the patients. We shouldn't be overtreating people. I try my damnedest not to. Just pointing it out.

No one gets a pass on math. Our math is unfavorable ATM. And yes, it has growing increasing more unfavorable essentially every year since I began my residency. If I were a med student again, who needed a field to sustain my passion/interest/income for the next 30-35 years.... well, here we are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
It’s not just one factor. The situation is multifactorial. Hypofrac and SBRT are fine, we shouldn’t stop trying to move the needle. But there are studies that do show worse toxicity from hypofrac in prostate, there are some very prominent people that will not hypofrac bc of fear of long term consequence and yet ASTRO just jumps the gun. One of the prominent academic voices in this area was 100% influenced by his work and ties w insurance companies to push strong in the direction of hypofrac to prepare for bundiling.

So let’s take the example of urology. Suddenly active surveillance shows up. It definetly effects them and their bottom line. Furthermore their residents are always dying to get the cases bc they’ve dried up. But are they expanding residency spots out of control at the same time? No. The issue is multifactorial.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Are you really trying to imply that the decreases in radiation indications/schedule for breast and prostate are made up for a recent phase II abstract presented at ASTRO this past year for SBRTing oligomets?

he is replying to the poster saying that there are no new indications or emerging roles for RT. maybe that would have been true not long ago, but 2018 was a interesting/good year for RT

1) new exciting prospective data for oligomet treatment with both Oligomez and SABR-COMET - these are more and more patients we never would have been treating in the past

2) Cardiac SBRT

so it is simply NOT true that we are not looking at ways to expand indications for RT. Why do you people insist on being wrong?


Also - I am sorry if your referring providers don't trust you to decide who to recommend RT on and who to favor hormonal therapy on for women over 70. That sucks and is pretty rare.
 
'And AFAIK, xrt in M1 prostate CA still isn't the NCCN Guidelines. So not mainstream yet.'

actually it is in the NCCN guidelines

forgot about this - yet another new indication for us. I've treated a few in last few weeks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Dr. Olivier's postings are the perfect example of why nothing changes in our field. I don't believe that the "misanthropic," anonymous echo chamber that is SDN is perfectly accurate of the state of our field any more than I believe the un-anonymized and overly optimistic academic echo chambers of twitter and ROHub are. However, the truth lies somewhere in between, and to claim that the failings of our field this year are a PR problem is to completely ignore the issues we face.

The reason that medical students are less interested in radiation oncology is because medical students are less optimistic about our future as a field, and rightfully so. While I don't necessarily think that things are as bad as SDN would make you believe, I don't know how Dr. Olivier can make a good faith argument that "our field is in a good position." We are training more physicians, we are doing fewer treatments, we are getting paid less for the treatments that we do, clinics are either being bought out or squeezed out by health systems, and the pace at which we are developing new treatments is being far outstripped by the pace at which we are scraping at the bottom of the barrel of academia to determine if one bioeffective treatment is equivalent to another bioeffective treatment. I am happy that we are providing more and more value to our patients, but unfortunately we as physicians are not reaping any rewards from the value we bring which is a failure of our leadership.

Job markets are tight if not nonexistent in any city that people want to be in and at this point an extremely successful job search involves receiving average pay at a satellite 30 minutes outside of a major city with little room for advancement. As I have posted in the past, I am happy with my job and would pick this field 10 times over, as I am sure many people are/would, but there are plenty of reasons for pessimism, there have been for years, and considering there has been nothing done about it in the past 5-10 years I don't know how anyone could be optimistic that there will be any improvements in the next 5-10 years.

Now, all of this may be fine for a salaried academic physician in the middle of Minnesota with resident support and little competition, but I'm not sure how anyone could be surprised that this doesn't seem like a great life decision for highly qualified applicants that could likely have their pick of residency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9 users
Also - I am sorry if your referring providers don't trust you to decide who to recommend RT on and who to favor hormonal therapy on for women over 70. That sucks and is pretty rare.

Doesn't matter if gen surg is sending me the pt directly when the MO tells her she doesn't need rt and to take this pill instead for 5 years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Doesn't matter if gen surg is sending me the pt directly when the MO tells her she doesn't need rt and to take this pill instead for 5 years.

Idk thats where I would talk about 10% vs 2% recurrence risk at ten years with no plateau, and if they’re healthy that recurrence risk will only increase if they’re living longer etc

RT is an easy sell with 3 week hypofrac or 5 frac partial breast IMRT
 
'And AFAIK, xrt in M1 prostate CA still isn't the NCCN Guidelines. So not mainstream yet.'

actually it is in the NCCN guidelines

forgot about this - yet another new indication for us. I've treated a few in last few weeks.
Where in the guidelines? a bullet point in the middle of the xrt section? Nowhere in the main M1 guideline that I can see
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Idk thats where I would talk about 10% vs 2% recurrence risk at ten years with no plateau, and if they’re healthy that recurrence risk will only increase if they’re living longer etc

RT is an easy sell with 3 week hypofrac or 5 frac partial breast IMRT
All the more reason that should have made it into the guidelines
 
The reason that medical students are less interested in radiation oncology is because medical students are less optimistic about our future as a field, and rightfully so. While I don't necessarily think that things are as bad as SDN would make you believe, I don't know how Dr. Olivier can make a good faith argument that "our field is in a good position." We are training more physicians, we are doing fewer treatments, we are getting paid less for the treatments that we do, clinics are either being bought out or squeezed out by health systems, and the pace at which we are developing new treatments is being far outstripped by the pace at which we are scraping at the bottom of the barrel of academia to determine if one bioeffective treatment is equivalent to another bioeffective treatment. I am happy that we are providing more and more value to our patients, but unfortunately we as physicians are not reaping any rewards from the value we bring which is a failure of our leadership.

Well-reasoned & honest. Will cardiac SBRT, and pretty much SBRT to any man or woman with metastatic disease, save our souls? We'll see what happens...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Where in the guidelines? a bullet point in the middle of the xrt section? Nowhere in the main M1 guideline that I can see


You probably aren’t looking at then 2019 guidelines. You should specifically google the 2019 guidelines.

On page 23 of 149.

An offfical treatment option in the flowchart for low volume M1 disease. 55/20 or 36/6 like done on STAMPEDE
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
All the more reason that should have made it into the guidelines

Honest question - what guidelines are you looking at where radiation isn’t a treatment option? I’m very confused
 
You probably aren’t looking at then 2019 guidelines. You should specifically google the 2019 guidelines.

On page 23 of 149.

An offfical treatment option in the flowchart for low volume M1 disease. 55/20 or 36/6 like done on STAMPEDE
Had to uninstall app and reinstall to update guidelines

Thx
 
The guideline where it states on the same page that xrt may be omitted in that group of patients?

Oh well of course it says that’s XRT ‘may’ be omitted but that’s up to you to recommend it as you see fit and discuss the pros and cons. There’s still a clear local control difference.
 
Oh well of course it says that’s XRT ‘may’ be omitted but that’s up to you to recommend it as you see fit and discuss the pros and cons. There’s still a clear local control difference.
Agreed. I just wish they'd also mention how an AI could be omitted instead lol.

The Hughes study came out when xrt was still conventional not hypofx. Way different calculus now imo compared to years of an AI
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Dr. Olivier's postings are the perfect example of why nothing changes in our field. I don't believe that the "misanthropic," anonymous echo chamber that is SDN is perfectly accurate of the state of our field any more than I believe the un-anonymized and overly optimistic academic echo chambers of twitter and ROHub are. However, the truth lies somewhere in between, and to claim that the failings of our field this year are a PR problem is to completely ignore the issues we face.

The reason that medical students are less interested in radiation oncology is because medical students are less optimistic about our future as a field, and rightfully so. While I don't necessarily think that things are as bad as SDN would make you believe, I don't know how Dr. Olivier can make a good faith argument that "our field is in a good position." We are training more physicians, we are doing fewer treatments, we are getting paid less for the treatments that we do, clinics are either being bought out or squeezed out by health systems, and the pace at which we are developing new treatments is being far outstripped by the pace at which we are scraping at the bottom of the barrel of academia to determine if one bioeffective treatment is equivalent to another bioeffective treatment. I am happy that we are providing more and more value to our patients, but unfortunately we as physicians are not reaping any rewards from the value we bring which is a failure of our leadership.

Job markets are tight if not nonexistent in any city that people want to be in and at this point an extremely successful job search involves receiving average pay at a satellite 30 minutes outside of a major city with little room for advancement. As I have posted in the past, I am happy with my job and would pick this field 10 times over, as I am sure many people are/would, but there are plenty of reasons for pessimism, there have been for years, and considering there has been nothing done about it in the past 5-10 years I don't know how anyone could be optimistic that there will be any improvements in the next 5-10 years.

Now, all of this may be fine for a salaried academic physician in the middle of Minnesota with resident support and little competition, but I'm not sure how anyone could be surprised that this doesn't seem like a great life decision for highly qualified applicants that could likely have their pick of residency.

Agreed! To think these people represent us at ABR and other meetings really makes me feel we will move forward!
 
Last edited:
The pace at which we are developing new treatments is being far outstripped by the pace at which we are scraping at the bottom of the barrel of academia to determine if one bioeffective treatment is equivalent to another bioeffective treatment. I am happy that we are providing more and more value to our patients, but unfortunately we as physicians are not reaping any rewards from the value we bring which is a failure of our leadership.

Thank you for your eloquence.
 
It’s not just one factor. The situation is multifactorial. Hypofrac and SBRT are fine, we shouldn’t stop trying to move the needle. But there are studies that do show worse toxicity from hypofrac in prostate, there are some very prominent people that will not hypofrac bc of fear of long term consequence and yet ASTRO just jumps the gun. One of the prominent academic voices in this area was 100% influenced by his work and ties w insurance companies to push strong in the direction of hypofrac to prepare for bundiling.

So let’s take the example of urology. Suddenly active surveillance shows up. It definetly effects them and their bottom line. Furthermore their residents are always dying to get the cases bc they’ve dried up. But are they expanding residency spots out of control at the same time? No. The issue is multifactorial.

Yes, sure. But not to recap the hypofrac debate, but let's be clear.

RTOG 0415 showed worse late toxicity with hypofrac. It also used low dose radiation in the conventional arm, and we know from dose escalation studies that higher dose (which is what the hypofrac arm was equivalent to) is associated with more rectal toxicity. Do you treat to 73.8 Gy ever?

The rest of the studies with endorsed regimens (PROFIT and CHHIP) do not show worse late toxicity. They show worse acute toxicity, which is referenced in the guidelines. CHHIP has patient reported outcomes too included recently from ASTRO 2018 showing better sexual function. On that note recent PROS from RTOG 0415 showed no significant change in PROs.

Then we have the MDACC study with long followup not really showing significantly worse toxicity overall and showing a biochemical benefit. Add the Fox Chase and Arcangeli trials, and there is a very modest, selected situation in which "worse toxicity" is actually seen.

If anything, I think the opposite of you. I think the guidelines were way too milquetoast. RTOG 0415 sucked, and if endorsing hypofrac, the guidelines should have just said to do the PROFIT/CHHIP. But the RTOG had their own reasons to keep their regimen in the guidelines.

Anyway, I 100% agree about the residency expansion problem. I'm just pointing out there is nothing wrong with showing hypofract or even SBRT to be safe and effective.

Also, just curious, do you guys never have patients balk at the idea of a 9 week treatment? I feel like a good # of patients I treat are choosing short course RT over surgery and would never consider long course RT.
 
MVP is dead on.

Really no reason to be concerned about late toxicity with hypofrac if you know the data.


Please learn the data
 
True beyond belief. Where there are reasonable opportunities to reduce treatment, these should be pursued. It has morphed into a crusade about cutting radiation, just to cut it.

Hypofractionation for breast done in a reasonable, seasoned manner with long term results before adoption. Prostate hypofraction is the opposite. We took a scheme used in low risk disease, shook it up with some European trials that included a clear minority of high risk disease, included HYPRO (which showed 3.4 Gy fractions can control high grade disease, but also cause significantly worse side effects and should not be used on patients) and came out with a policy statement that every prostate should be hypofractionated. Period.

All previous evidence that dose escalation, including by brachytherapy, may be beneficial was not even considered. And I recall getting into this argument with Chartreuse or someone about the follow up. The RTOG 0415 study had a follow up of 5 years. And guess what came out recently? RTOG 9413. The curves started to separate at 7 years in that trial - it's almost as if there can be late recurrences in prostate cancer that mandate sufficient follow up to adequately report. But what did ASTRO do? Policy statement - hypofractionate every prostate. " Based on high-quality evidence, strong consensus was reached for offering moderate hypofractionation across risk groups to patients choosing external beam radiation therapy." I do not need to treat prostates in 39, 42, 48 fractions for my income. But how can one possibly look at the balance of evidence, those trials (including a negative one for toxicity!!!!!!) and conclude that the evidence supports that recommendation. It's garbage. It may be proven with time, it is absolutely not proven now. It's like some kind of weird and pathetic gimmick to prostrate ourselves to insurance companies prematurely.

70 yr old with breast cancer? Well those 3 weeks of radiation are just too terrible - take 5 years of hormonal therapy instead, so we can save society. Rather than advocating for a short treatment course that continually reduces the risk of LR in every single trial, and has very low grades of grade 2+ late effects, it's like we pat ourselves on the back for recommending 5 years of hormones which has inferior outcomes. But that's ok, why advocate for something that is short, well tolerated, and works?

I don't get it. We have pharmacy companies doing direct to consumer advertising, and instead of using our PAC money to do that and spread awareness of radiation, we are actively trying to cede our role at all costs. Even though we are the smallest of oncologic care spending.
Bingo.

And while doing so using noninferiority trials which overall show noninferiority 80% of the time. Really? Why even do the trial?

It's the easiest trial to win.

And even if the almost always successful noninferiority trial doesn't show noninferiority (RTOG 0413) "the leaders" still say that it was close enough so we don't accept the trial results - then the biocreep has set in and ethics is out the door.

This is a sad time in rad onc.
 
Bingo.

And while doing so using noninferiority trials which overall show noninferiority 80% of the time. Really? Why even do the trial?

It's the easiest trial to win.

And even if the almost always successful noninferiority trial doesn't show noninferiority (RTOG 0413) "the leaders" still say that it was close enough so we don't accept the trial results - then the biocreep has set in and ethics is out the door.

This is a sad time in rad onc.

Ben Smith has entered the room.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
And even if the almost always successful noninferiority trial doesn't show noninferiority (RTOG 0413) "the leaders" still say that it was close enough so we don't accept the trial results.
Don't forget, it was also more toxic. So yeah.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
RTOG 0129 was designed as a superiority trial to demonstrate that altered fractionation + 2 cycles cis was better than standard fraction + 3 cycles cis.

It completely failed (notwithstanding some interesting data regarding p16 status that became the focus) to meet it's endpoint. Yet... what was the "standard" arm of the next head and neck RTOG trial (1016)? You guessed it, the failed experimental arm of 0129. Shockingly, that trial also failed (though, not due to poor rationale for the standard arm, but rather very poor rationale for the experimental arm).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
None of those comments are relevant to prostate hypofractionation, where 2/3 large NON-INFERIORITY trials showed equivalent outcomes and toxicity, and one of the superiority trials (MDACC) showed superiority.

Also, yes, glad you all are correctly pointing out problems with the RTOG studies...so why cite RTOG 0415 to not to do hypofrac, when the control arm was low dose? Look at 0126 for proof that dose escalation alone leads to toxicity, and tell me if you treat prostate cancer to 73.8 Gy or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Why cite RTOG 0415 to not to do hypofrac, when the control arm was low dose? Look at 0126 for proof that dose escalation alone leads to toxicity, and tell me if you treat prostate cancer to 73.8 Gy or not.

Higher doses also lead to better biochemical control. Seems relevant as well.
 
Actually really don’t get how Mandelin Rain isn’t getting it. Can’t tell if he’s just not understanding or purposely being difficult.

0415 has the standard arm as a low dose arm whereas the experimental arm is both hypofrac as well as escalated dose. Of course the toxicity is higher when the comparator is low dose.

The other trials are better designed because the standard frac dose arms use modern doses. In those trials the toxicity endpoints are equivalent

It’s really not that hard and has been explained multiple times.

Is there a reason you are trying to pretend?
 
Actually really don’t get how Mandelin Rain isn’t getting it. Can’t tell if he’s just not understanding or purposely being difficult.

0415 has the standard arm as a low dose arm whereas the experimental arm is both hypofrac as well as escalated dose. Of course the toxicity is higher when the comparator is low dose.

The other trials are better designed because the standard frac dose arms use modern doses. In those trials the toxicity endpoints are equivalent

It’s really not that hard and has been explained multiple times.

Is there a reason you are trying to pretend?
That was literally my first post about 0415.

The point is, you can't use 0415 to justify hypofractionated radiation by wiping away the difference in toxicity due to substandard control dose, without at least acknowledging that the efficacy of hypofractionated RT may no longer be equivalent if a truly dose escalated standard dose was used. Dose escalation, after all, does two things. Increase toxicity and increase biochemical control.

Now, I'm not sure if we're in agreement that 0415 was a completely worthless trial (like so many other RTOG trials) that should never be cited to justify anything or not. That may be the case. Quite frankly, I don't really care.
 
Last edited:
That was literally my first post about 0415.

The point is, you can't use 0415 to justify hypofractionated radiation by wiping away the difference in toxicity due to substandard control dose, without at least acknowledging the the efficacy of hypofractionated RT may no longer be equivalent if a higher standard dose was used.

Now, I'm not sure if we're in agreement that 0415 was a worthless trial (like so many other RTOG trials) or not. That may be the case. Quite frankly, I don't really care.

....Hence the non-inferiority trials from UK/Canada that did show iso-efficacy, which did NOT show a difference in late toxicity but did show iso-efficacy. And the superiority trial from MDACC. Feel free to completely ignore those though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
....Hence the non-inferiority trials from UK/Canada that did show iso-efficacy, which did NOT show a difference in late toxicity but did show iso-efficacy. And the superiority trial from MDACC. Feel free to completely ignore those though.
Okay sport. The straw man you're attacking is dead. I'm still fine though.
 
Pe the Google Doc - a number of the people who ended up SOAP-ing into open spots were ENT and Derm applicants who didn't match
 
Pe the Google Doc - a number of the people who ended up SOAP-ing into open spots were ENT and Derm applicants who didn't match

That’s actually not a good thing. Most of the people who filled probably have no clue about rad onc. I’m also sure those programs will use it to claim that they are able to get competitive applicants.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Im interested to see what happens with the next cycle.
 
Wow so programs decided to fill their open slots with unmatched derm/ ENT applicants... there goes any chance of a "market correction." Most of these applicants likely never completed a single Rad Onc rotation. And for all the talk from academic departments about selecting applicants with a passion and love for oncology etc at the end of day, all they really care about is having warm bodies to take linac and call coverage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm confused why you guys are confused?

We already know that some unfilled programs took people in the SOAP and some decided to go and remain unfilled.

All I posted was looks like some of the spots ended up being taken by 'competitive applicants' and it wasn't all just bottom of the barrel US applicants who didn't match to non-competitive fields and FMGs (who also would have been outsiders to rad onc)

calm down.
 
I'm confused why you guys are confused?

We already know that some unfilled programs took people in the SOAP and some decided to go and remain unfilled.

All I posted was looks like some of the spots ended up being taken by 'competitive applicants' and it wasn't all just bottom of the barrel US applicants who didn't match to non-competitive fields and FMGs (who also would have been outsiders to rad onc)

calm down.

Someone who failed to match in another specialty is now considered a "competitive applicant"? And they have no proven experience/ interest/ love for RO so how is that a good addition to the field?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
of course would rather rad onc be competitive and have more applicants than spots. personally at least that would be my preference.

but point is we already knew some programs decided to fill their spots and some didn't. Was merely adding information to this discussion.

and yes, there can certainly be strong applicants who fail to match - especially in Derm, ENT, and Optho this year who all had more applicants than spots. Optho especially was very competitive this year. i don't know the 'stats' of these people who filled those slots, but certainly very possible they had strong applicants. the year I applied rad onc there were some people that did not match that had stellar step scores and class ranks. it happens.

these fields all ebb and flow, it's interesting. When I was in med school, optho was in a bit of a downturn, now it had a peak year.
 
Wow so programs decided to fill their open slots with unmatched derm/ ENT applicants... there goes any chance of a "market correction." Most of these applicants likely never completed a single Rad Onc rotation. And for all the talk from academic departments about selecting applicants with a passion and love for oncology etc at the end of day, all they really care about is having warm bodies to take linac and call coverage.

Match day is a distant memory for some of us and I think the process changed anyway.

Can one of you guys clarify: so on Monday programs and applicants know if they matched (but not where) or not, and if not the list of all unmatched programs an applicants are known just to them? In most (all?) cases other than Rad Onc this year there are more applicants then positions so the programs fill with those who applied to Rad Onc (maybe even their program) but this year some medical student from California who applied to derm and on Monday finds out he doesn’t match 48 hours later signs up for radiation oncology in a program in Pennsylvania?

Do they try to fly out for a quick interview or just walk into the department for the first time on the first day of residency?
 
it's telephone or skype interviews i believe, but yeah it all happens that week - for the programs who used SOAP.

i imagine some programs who decided not to use SOAP and who still want to fill will fly people out perhaps, they have until July 2020 to take someone if they desire.
 
Wow so programs decided to fill their open slots with unmatched derm/ ENT applicants... there goes any chance of a "market correction." Most of these applicants likely never completed a single Rad Onc rotation. .

Well instead of an ent or derm job in a desirable coastal metro, hope they are ready for the strong possibility of living with the sights and sounds of Salina, Chico or Rhinelander in 2025+
 
Last edited:
Nope those jobs will always remained unfilled haha

Hopefully for the patients in those areas there’s someone from those areas that wants to go back home. Or someone who wants to make bank decides to go live there.

I mean obviously there are multiple urologists, ENTs, breast surgeons etc who choose to work there otherwise there wouldn’t be a need for one rad onc
 
it's telephone or skype interviews i believe, but yeah it all happens that week - for the programs who used SOAP.

i imagine some programs who decided not to use SOAP and who still want to fill will fly people out perhaps, they have until July 2020 to take someone if they desire.

Yeah I don’t understand the rush since these positions are or 2020. Why not take ones time? There must be at least a few out there who showed interest in radiation oncology but couldn’t match a few years ago when it was ultra competitive and/or didn’t realize they could easily get a spot this year who have completed at least a PGY-1 year or will do so next year ... why not try to find them at some point over the next year or so vs grab whoever you can within a few day period during match week?

Anybody know how many of the unmatched spots decided to go that route (or decided to just not fill period and shrink their residency size ... maybe wishful thinking).

Lastly, are any of the residency programs that failed to match actively trying to expand their program? If so doesn’t that raise flags or nobody cares?
 
Top