Astro work force survey

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The discussion has been limited

The academic folks and PDs and chairman just aren’t interested in a real discussion. It’s disheartening.

It kind of sad bc the actual report is a great start and we needed to do this, but without continued iterations and improvement, it’s useless

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I got the impression from your post in a different thread that this wasn't done intentionally? Felt like it was
I have no inside information but would be surprised if ASTRO delayed release for this reason. They are basically incompetent. My point was that the ROL was due March 1 and the report was available after that so the embargo of two days didn't change things.

Any reasonable medical student should be worried if a small scientific society is bullied into producing a workforce analysis which I believe is what happened here. There is no way to spin these results positively. All of the assumptions outlined in this thread are going in the same direction and even then the best they can say is that the sky probably won't fall before 2030. I will be out of the game well before then.
 
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"We are more F'd than even what we're telling you here, but we'd like to hope that with slinging enough bs, we've obfuscated, distracted you and made this an academic contest rather than the airplane with both engines on fire, so by all means, lets dissect this data further..."

The analogy here is I have my parachute on, and the door is open. There is one left, and 3 other radoncs are looking at you. And I'm off.. good luck.




yell danger island GIF by Archer
 
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Are there solid data that the number of PGY-2 and PGY-3's is down and falling?
 
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140,000 fewer patients per year for the last 2 decades.

What did the rad onc elite predict?


Surely the workforce projections will be correct for the next 1-2 decades. If nothing else they can fall back on their loosey goosey confidence intervals when the rad onc equivalent of the SVB panic is here.
 
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What more do they need to see?? This is a disaster. Cut slots.

The Astro elite are turning into medoncs. When a study disproves your theory, just go ahead and do what you wanted to do anyway.
 
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What more do they need to see?? This is a disaster. Cut slots.

The Astro elite are turning into medoncs. When a study disproves your theory, just go ahead and do what you wanted to do anyway.
At least med oncs were smart enough not to start a civil war with everyone outside of the ivory tower
 
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First off, thank you to everyone who put effort into this study. This should be the baseline, assessing our need so we don't misappropriate human capital.

Below is a not so quick recap and collection of thoughts.

Premise: Study the supply and demand by modelling 'supply' as defined as calculating # of current Rad Oncs and 'demand' by the number of Medicare beneficiaries and wRVU per (ie the quantification of billing efforts but NOT any billing of technical components),

General critiques (many by smarter people than myself and also many acknowledged in the HMA report or Red Journal paper)
1. They had a hard time quantifying the baseline number of practicing Rad Oncs - they state this as such in the paper. The discrepancy between their estimate and an estimate based on NPI/and the CMS Virtual Data Center (VRDC) was large - the study estimated 4700 as a starting point, NPI/VRDC suggests 5600.

2. Related to the above - they estimate the 'entrance' date and 'exit' date of radiation oncologists, which both could distort the current number of providers, but also obviously impacts future projections. They acknowledge specifically the 'exit' date source of error though also report only if 25% difference from their estimates (which they define as 'extreme' scenario) would error in this variable be meaningful to the model.

3. They only use wRVU and not technical RVU in modeling the impact of hypofractionation and loss of indications. Which means in terms of the effect of hypofractionation, they do not capture the actual loss of revenue a practice experiences. This is unfortunate because that revenue is needed to support a functioning linac and thus it is plausible that hypofractionation will have a large impact on 'demand' because it results in financially unviable low volume single linac sites (hint - rural) which may simply close. This is also a valid criticism because it is not a 'bi-directional' variable - ie guessing exits could go either way, but hypofractionation is less fractions, period. It can only negatively impact technical RVU. The error is only in the magnitude of revenue loss, it never swings to gain.

4. The projection they use for the increase in Medicare Beneficiaries is greater than that estimate by the Congressional Budget Office. This is noted in the discussion and becomes another one-way variable. I do not understand why.

5. There is no accounting for the impact of the APM, which decreases demand. No foul here, can't model something not currently existing. But APM is not dead, and APMs primary function is to decrease demand (especially measured by wRVU).


The strength of the study is that the model, in so much as possible, tries to account for differences in uptake of hypofractionation, loss of indications, wRVU per physician, and does provide different scenarios and has an ability to input some scenarios. This absolutely increases its utility and the ability to understand how many uncertainties exist.

Their conclusions:
In a 'simple model' only going from 2025 to 2030, we could be in a 'relatively balanced' scenario, but accounting for the variables they acknowledge, not the ones noted above, there could be a shortage of 900 Rad Oncs, or an excess of 1300 Rad oncs over 7 years.
That is crazy, and models are models, but from now to 2030 we could either be in balance or the entire residency classes of 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, & 2027 are uneeded.


The biggest conclusion was slipped into the main HMA report, but better noted in the Red Journal paper. The biggest driver of 'demand' in their paper was growth in Medicare Beneficiary and from 2030 on, Medicare Beneficiary numbers slow dramatically. Unless we start allowing preferential immigration of a geriatric population, this is a demographic certainty no matter what. And they made this very clear in Figure 5 of the report, look at that trend line :) From the Red Journal paper (not HMA report)
" As such, potential reductions in trainee positions are likely needed as soon as 2025, given the declining growth in Medicare beneficiaries by 2030."


My Conclusions

1. Grass roots / direct communication / reality still matters. I am so grateful to everyone who read any one of my sophomoric posts, and I enjoyed reading yours. The strain of the job market and the declining condition of this field is evident to many of us, and the advocacy from this social media starting point got us to this and hopefully has steered some human capital to more needed endeavors.

2. Thank you to the small number of insiders who used their voice in non-anonymity to help get this done.

3. The best-case scenario for an ASTRO-sponsored (should we say cajoled?) outside report is maybe we are OK until we fall off the cliff soon. A medical student applying today, for this match, has his/her most likely projection of being excess supply after 1 year of practice based on this report. Let that sink in. The people applying to this match will be excess supply 1 year after practice. Or in the model 'best case', they would be excess supply after 4 years of practice. What a career! In a the model worst case, the last 7 graduating resident classes are educated in a specialized medical field that society doesn't need them for.


In my opinion point 3 is why this is not generating any buzz among Big Rad Onc. I am not Big Rad Onc, I am not even worthy enough to contour a bladder for them. But I try and stay friendly with people, and no one wants to talk about it. The 'best' case scenario of this report, with all it's valid criticisms, is that excess capacity doesn't occur until 2034 (using the best case for over supply). The worst says we already have an oversupply now several years in the making with many current residents essentially not needed, and no matter what says from 2030 on demand growth is falling so far off due to demographic certainties that we are certain to be in massive oversupply going forward after the equally massive residency expansion that just occurred.


Will it change anything? I hope so. Every single applicant, domestic, international, first time, SOAP, out of the match, any ethnicities and/or genders, etc. can and should receive and read the HMA report and Red Journal response. Both are free. Every person who says 'Pfft those people online are such malcontents' can read through, put it down, read it again and conclude about their own future in this field. And that is a first step.
 
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Will it change anything? I hope so. Every single applicant, domestic, international, first time, SOAP, out of the match, any ethnicities and/or genders, etc. can and should receive and read the HMA report and Red Journal response. Both are free. Every person who says 'Pfft those people online are such malcontents' can read through, put it down, read it again and conclude about their own future in this field. And that is a first step.

As long as the spots are out there, they will fill. Applicant quality will be terrible and they will all get spots.
 
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As long as the spots are out there, they will fill. Applicant quality will be terrible and they will all get spots.
Esp these days when there are literally very few residency slots left in anything after the match and there has been a proliferation of DO/for profit schools domestically, not to mention all the IMGs/FMGs graduating from the Caribbean, Poland, India etc.

Sadly there will be plenty of warm bodies willing to roll the dice on a slot vs graduating medical school without a residency at all


 
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Patients, I'm afraid, aren't as goofy as NYTimes (quote: "some American students are attracted by the warmth and adventure of schools in the Caribbean").

Even as merit is being dismantled in higher education and commerce, in favor of DEI and inclusivity (MD = DO = Caribbean = IMG = APRN), patients of all ideologies become clear-headed once they're diagnosed with cancer.

That's why I've always been in favor of draining talent out of the rad onc applicant pool as a grassroots response to the supply/demand mismatch and the unwillingness of academic medicine to seriously address a dismal reality of their own making.

Warm bodies will fill residency slots, yes, but let's be honest, patients do their research, academic and private employers do their research, and patients don't want a warm body as their cancer doctor.
 
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Patients, I'm afraid, aren't as goofy as NYTimes (quote: "some American students are attracted by the warmth and adventure of schools in the Caribbean").

Even as merit is being dismantled in higher education and commerce, in favor of DEI and inclusivity (MD = DO = Caribbean = IMG = APRN), patients of all ideologies become clear-headed once they're diagnosed with cancer.

That's why I've always been in favor of draining talent out of the rad onc applicant pool as a grassroots response to the supply/demand mismatch and the unwillingness of academic medicine to seriously address a dismal reality of their own making.

Warm bodies will fill residency slots, yes, but let's be honest, patients do their research, academic and private employers do their research, and patients don't want a warm body as their cancer doctor.
💯.

I don't expect many of these 2030+ AUA/SGU/for profit school grads to be gainfully employed treating patients, i doubt the residencies that soap them in will care about that either, and, after reading the workforce study, they will deserve the consequences of taking the risk imo, but at least they'll be eligible for state licensure and can go into Palliative care or become an MJ doc
 
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There are some major flaws on the supply side (and demand side) with their analysis.

Accelerators/Out of The Basement recorded on this.

Both the numerator and denominator have problems. The consulting company did some very interesting things. I believe people are contacting them to find some clarity.

Give a listen - let us know what you think.



 
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There are some major flaws on the supply side (and demand side) with their analysis.

Accelerators/Out of The Basement recorded on this.

Both the numerator and denominator have problems. The consulting company did some very interesting things. I believe people are contacting them to find some clarity.

Give a listen - let us know what you think.




WTF

 
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The old saying, "garbage in, garbage out" applies to this.
 
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Jason and Todd really break down the problems. It’s crazy that it got through and was published.
 
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It’s not the spin. It’s the inputs and outputs in the model. Astro / RJ editorial is actually very well balanced in the narrative - if the numbers they had were accurate. I have reason to believe grave errors were made. Let’s see.
 
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In a the model worst case, the last 7 graduating resident classes are educated in a specialized medical field that society doesn't need them for.
Oooof. As a member of this group, yeah this is really concerning. And also really hard to explain to people outside of the medical field who wonder why you're crying wolf.
 
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Oooof. As a member of this group, yeah this is really concerning. And also really hard to explain to people outside of the medical field who wonder why you're crying wolf.

I don’t think med students ever conceive that they aren’t needed in their respective fields but it’s a far more serious discussion…like talking about living wills and life insurance.
 
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It’s not the spin. It’s the inputs and outputs in the model. Astro / RJ editorial is actually very well balanced in the narrative - if the numbers they had were accurate. I have reason to believe grave errors were made. Let’s see.
I agree but this is semantics. The results were what ASTRO wanted...solid for 5 years (how is that for a ringing endorsement?).

This conclusion follows from the decision to input estimates that get the answer that you want.

In the meantime gaslighting skeptics will continue.
 
It’s not the spin. It’s the inputs and outputs in the model. Astro / RJ editorial is actually very well balanced in the narrative - if the numbers they had were accurate. I have reason to believe grave errors were made. Let’s see.
We can debate what type 1 and 2 errors are in this sort of analysis. Ordinarily type 2 means failing to find a difference when one exists. And type 1 means finding a difference (and instituting a new standard of care tx eg) when one doesn’t exist. It’s been a given that type 1 hurts people more than type 2, so we are stricter in analyses in trying to avoid type 1 versus type 2. In this workforce analysis, I argue the authors have made a type 1 error. By seeming to have enough confidence in their results as they do, they are making a choice for continued inaction on class sizes. This sort of flips how we think of type 1 on its head a little, but this analysis has made an error that seems to trend on the side of causing continued harm to the patient of radiation oncology.

This sort of discussion also opens up a paper to maybe one of its most non controversial criticisms: not even the simplest statistical test, or any idea of means and standard deviations (and thus confidence intervals), were attempted to be used here. The confidence in this paper’s results equals zero divided by zero.
 
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We can debate what type 1 and 2 errors are in this sort of analysis. Ordinarily type 2 means failing to find a difference when one exists. And type 1 means finding a difference (and instituting a new standard of care tx eg) when one doesn’t exist. It’s been a given that type 1 hurts people more than type 2, so we are stricter in analyses in trying to avoid type 1 versus type 2. In this workforce analysis, I argue the authors have made a type 1 error. By seeming to have enough confidence in their results as they do, they are making a choice for continued inaction on class sizes. This sort of flips how we think of type 1 on its head a little, but this analysis has made an error that seems to trend on the side of causing continued harm to the patient of radiation oncology.

This sort of discussion also opens up a paper to maybe one of its most non controversial criticisms: not even the simplest statistical test, or any idea of means and standard deviations (and thus confidence intervals), were attempted to be used here. The confidence in this paper’s results equals zero divided by zero.
Continued harm is in the eye of the beholder. Oversupply results in winners and losers. Winners are scientific societies that depend on membership dues and growth of the membership and employers who take advantage of oversupply by offering lower salaries. The losers...
 
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We can debate what type 1 and 2 errors are in this sort of analysis. Ordinarily type 2 means failing to find a difference when one exists. And type 1 means finding a difference (and instituting a new standard of care tx eg) when one doesn’t exist. It’s been a given that type 1 hurts people more than type 2, so we are stricter in analyses in trying to avoid type 1 versus type 2. In this workforce analysis, I argue the authors have made a type 1 error. By seeming to have enough confidence in their results as they do, they are making a choice for continued inaction on class sizes. This sort of flips how we think of type 1 on its head a little, but this analysis has made an error that seems to trend on the side of causing continued harm to the patient of radiation oncology.

This sort of discussion also opens up a paper to maybe one of its most non controversial criticisms: not even the simplest statistical test, or any idea of means and standard deviations (and thus confidence intervals), were attempted to be used here. The confidence in this paper’s results equals zero divided by zero.
When you are going to increase residents more than any other specialty, the burden of justification lies with you not visa verse, and you better have compelling reasons/evidence/data for being such an outlier. Not this crap.
 
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Continued harm is in the eye of the beholder. Oversupply results in winners and losers. Winners are scientific societies that depend on membership dues and growth of the membership and employers who take advantage of oversupply by offering lower salaries. The losers...
And boy do ROs on the ground love losing
 
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