At-Will Employment vs Health of the Community

[rowsdower88]

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What to know about the battle over Wisconsin health care workers now playing out in court

ThedaCare pursued legal action to prevent seven health care workers in Wisconsin from starting a new job at a nearby hospital.

www.postcrescent.com

A group of radiology techs and nurses tried to leave ThedaCare (Wisconsin healthcare system) after one of them saw a much better offer with Ascension Healthcare (another Wisconsin healthcare system). Each of these employees were employed at-will, meaning they were not under an obligation to stay at ThedaCare for a certain amount of time. A judge has now ruled that these employees are unable to leave until ThedaCare has found sufficient replacements for them with the argument seemingly being that these employees are necessary for the health of the community. ThedaCare was given sufficient time to counter-offer if it chose to.

If a worker doesn't have the opportunity to leave (having not signed a contract requiring them to stay) then all of the benefits of at-will employment are enjoyed by the employer and not the employee.

I think this is best summed up by the final sentences of the article: After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made.

 

[caveat87]

A judge forcing people to work when they were previously at-will? Between this and courts ordering physicians to give ivermectin to covid19 patients I might as well apply for the gaswork job in North Korea...

 

[ERRES2288]

I don’t understand how a judge can even enforce this issue? How is this any different than communism?

 

[deleted126335]

This is what apellate courts are for.

A judge may be able stop the competing health care system from allowing them to work there. But they cannot compel the employees to show up for work at their current job or prevent them from quitting.

 

[powermd]

It's a temporary block from Friday until a hearing on Monday. Kind of outrageous that this could proceed at all, but it's hard to imagine this going anywhere.

 

[rowsdower88]

It's a temporary block from Friday until a hearing on Monday. Kind of outrageous that this could proceed at all, but it's hard to imagine this going anywhere.

I agree, I didn't mean to dramatize the issue or imply this is a settled matter. The article does state that the employees won't be working at either hospital on Monday though, so some relatively minor harm has been done upon them and the community already.

I don’t understand how a judge can even enforce this issue? How is this any different than communism?

I think framing this issue in terms of competing modes of production is a little weird. Some people would probably argue that this is what crony-capitalism looks like with the state taking the side of employers.

 

[GassYous]

What to know about the battle over Wisconsin health care workers now playing out in court

ThedaCare pursued legal action to prevent seven health care workers in Wisconsin from starting a new job at a nearby hospital.

www.postcrescent.com

A group of radiology techs and nurses tried to leave ThedaCare (Wisconsin healthcare system) after one of them saw a much better offer with Ascension Healthcare (another Wisconsin healthcare system). Each of these employees were employed at-will, meaning they were not under an obligation to stay at ThedaCare for a certain amount of time. A judge has now ruled that these employees are unable to leave until ThedaCare has found sufficient replacements for them with the argument seemingly being that these employees are necessary for the health of the community. ThedaCare was given sufficient time to counter-offer if it chose to.

If a worker doesn't have the opportunity to leave (having not signed a contract requiring them to stay) then all of the benefits of at-will employment are enjoyed by the employer and not the employee.

I think this is best summed up by the final sentences of the article: After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made.

Wow if someone told me I had to show up for work, peace out!

 

[NICMAN]

Haven't you heard? Health care is a right, and those whose job it is to ensure free, equal, and easy access will enforce that right.

 

[chessknt]

This seems like a very natural result of corporations as people. They will always have more money to purchase the decisions that benefit them the most. Working as intended.

 

[dabears505]

They interviewed one of the workers caught in this dispute. He said "living in Wisconsin and being a packers fan, I was really annoyed with Aaron Rodgers over the summer. But now going through this and his stance on vaccines, I love the guy! "

 

[NICMAN]

This seems like a very natural result of corporations as people. They will always have more money to purchase the decisions that benefit them the most. Working as intended.

It is quite a (non-sequitur) leap to say that a court ruling that allows individuals to organize/associate as a group and produce political speech is the reason why groups are now free to compel an individual to associate (employment).

 

[NICMAN]

"Government is the one thing we all belong to".

--Pres. Barak Obama

 

[Zekchar]

This judge's ruling is incredulous.

Be completely ruthless and get your FU money as quickly as possible. The system is broken and there is no "we." It's every person for themselves. Make hay while the sun is shining and walk away.

 

[chessknt]

It is quite a (non-sequitur) leap to say that a court ruling that allows individuals to organize/associate as a group and produce political speech is the reason why groups are now free to compel an individual to associate (employment).

So you think the court is free of political influence? Why would a judge ever make a ruling like this? It seems like workers have become the property of their employers, at least in this part of Wisconsin according to Judge McGinnis.

 

[allantois]

Judges should be held accountable for judicial malpractice. It always amazed me that if a physician send a suicidal patient home who then kills himself, they get sued; however, when mental health court does it, there is no liability.

Btw this is a judge who has been entrenched in controversy:

Reviewer recommends Judge Mark McGinnis no longer serve on truancy court

"The district should request that Judge McGinnis should no longer have the truancy court responsibility."

www.postcrescent.com

Court Watch: 42 Days in Jail for Rolling His Eyes

Judge puts defendant in jail for alleged bad attitude. Appeals court overturns decision.

urbanmilwaukee.com

 

[gasdoc77]

This seems like a very natural result of corporations as people. They will always have more money to purchase the decisions that benefit them the most. Working as intended.

Citizens United strikes again 😡

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I don’t understand how a judge can even enforce this issue? How is this any different than communism?

lol one of the Republican talking points is that the Democrats are a bunch of commies.

Through a political lens the judge ruled squarely on the side of the Republicans, who favor big business, corporations and management.

The Democrats are squarely on the side of the average worker (pro-union).

 

[chessknt]

Judges should be held accountable for judicial malpractice. It always amazed me that if a physician send a suicidal patient home who then kills himself, they get sued; however, when mental health court does it, there is no liability.

Btw this is a judge who has been entrenched in controversy:

Reviewer recommends Judge Mark McGinnis no longer serve on truancy court

"The district should request that Judge McGinnis should no longer have the truancy court responsibility."

www.postcrescent.com

Court Watch: 42 Days in Jail for Rolling His Eyes

Judge puts defendant in jail for alleged bad attitude. Appeals court overturns decision.

urbanmilwaukee.com

I would love to see a single case of anyone in the legal profession being held to any consequences for stupid **** like that. The entire field is rife in corruption though that is hardly unique to the US. I have had so many patients say that I am not God and I can't tell them what will or wont work blah blah but these little robed tyrants actually are gods. No repercussions or accountability for anything it seems. Our medical boards actually keep us in line if we go too far off the rails, it is a damn shame the judiciary doesn't have any similar system that actually functions.

Another recent example that is arguably much worse

Who is Judge Robert Adrian, Illinois justice who sparked outrage by overturning Drew Clinton rape verdict

Judge Robert Adrian of Illinois’ Eighth Circuit Court ignited nationwide fury by letting convicted rapist walk free

finance.yahoo.com

 

[allantois]

I would love to see a single case of anyone in the legal profession being held to any consequences for stupid **** like that. The entire field is rife in corruption though that is hardly unique to the US. I have had so many patients say that I am not God and I can't tell them what will or wont work blah blah but these little robed tyrants actually are gods. No repercussions or accountability for anything it seems. Our medical boards actually keep us in line if we go too far off the rails, it is a damn shame the judiciary doesn't have any similar system that actually functions.

Another recent example that is arguably much worse

Who is Judge Robert Adrian, Illinois justice who sparked outrage by overturning Drew Clinton rape verdict

Judge Robert Adrian of Illinois’ Eighth Circuit Court ignited nationwide fury by letting convicted rapist walk free

finance.yahoo.com

I have no doubt that lawyers are the ones who have ruined this country (starting with politicians). The ridiculous employment contracts that they write for healthcare workers that they would never sign themselves that among other things they have done have led to spiraling healthcare costs. Then they create business for themselves by requiring the general public to hire lawyers just to understand the nonsense laws and contracts they have created. This is one profession we would be much better off without as a society.

 

[deleted126335]

I have no doubt that lawyers are the ones who have ruined this country (starting with politicians). The ridiculous employment contracts that they write for healthcare workers that they would never sign themselves that among other things they have done have led to spiraling healthcare costs. Then they create business for themselves by requiring the general public to hire lawyers just to understand the nonsense laws and contracts they have created. This is one profession we would be much better off without as a society.

Attorneys are amazingly good at raping their colleagues: Long partnership tracks, different levels of ownership, voting rights within firms, etc.

Who do you think docs learned this stuff from?

Not in legal malpractice though.

 

[Gern Blansten]

So you think the court is free of political influence? Why would a judge ever make a ruling like this? It seems like workers have become the property of their employers, at least in this part of Wisconsin according to Judge McGinnis.

The decision was made for the good of the entire community. Sacrificing freedoms for the greater good is virtuous. You have been very outspoken in favor of it.

 

[allantois]

The decision was made for the good of the entire community. Sacrificing freedoms for the greater good is virtuous. You have been very outspoken in favor of it.

How's this good for the community? They aren't gonna go back to their old jerbs

 

[gasdoc77]

The decision was made for the good of the entire community. Sacrificing freedoms for the greater good is virtuous. You have been very outspoken in favor of it.

 

[deleted87051]

Attorneys are amazingly good at raping their colleagues: Long partnership tracks, different levels of ownership, voting rights within firms, etc.

Who do you think docs learned this stuff from?

Not in legal malpractice though.

I was initially going to attribute it to capitalism (owner gets the spoils of worker labor a la McDonald’s) but more than likely it’s just human nature and universal.

 

[deleted87051]

How's this good for the community? They aren't gonna go back to their old jerbs

If that ever was a possibility, it’s not gonna happen now.

 

[chessknt]

The decision was made for the good of the entire community. Sacrificing freedoms for the greater good is virtuous. You have been very outspoken in favor of it.

They are trying to work for a health system in the same area. There is no net change to the community, only the business entity that lost all of its employees then sued for them like they were their property. Nice try, it must have been quite an internal victory for you to think you pwnd the libs as it were even though you were way off as usual.

 

[NitroS]

So they say the health of community is more important than individual freedom?

Ok now do the vaccine mandate

 

[chessknt]

So they say the health of community is more important than individual freedom?

Ok now do the vaccine mandate

Again bull**** argument. Health of the community isn’t impacted these people are moving to an employer to do the same thing a few miles away. The only people harmed are the c suite execs of the health system losing them. Vaccine mandate actually does something and not getting vaccinated and shutting down health care and impeding emergency care to the point of barely functioning hurts way more people than a bunch of rich hospital executives.

 

[Gern Blansten]

They are trying to work for a health system in the same area. There is no net change to the community, only the business entity that lost all of its employees then sued for them like they were their property. Nice try, it must have been quite an internal victory for you to think you pwnd the libs as it were even though you were way off as usual.

Everyone sees it. Not surprised that you do not.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Again bull**** argument. Health of the community isn’t impacted these people are moving to an employer to do the same thing a few miles away. The only people harmed are the c suite execs of the health system losing them. Vaccine mandate actually does something and not getting vaccinated and shutting down health care and impeding emergency care to the point of barely functioning hurts way more people than a bunch of rich hospital executives.

An entire service line at a large hospital would have to shut down. All patients at that hospital who needed that service (interventional radiology) would no longer have access to it. Therefore, those whose insurance coverage is with that hospital system are no longer getting that care and are impacted negatively. Therefore, for the greater good of the community, the judge made the decision that it is okay to sacrifice individual freedoms because it benefits those members of the community who receive their care through the ThedaCare Health System. You would be callous and uncaring if you opposed this and caused the death of persons in the ThedaCare patient population. Why would you suddenly care so much for individual freedom of choice now? You have made your feelings known elsewhere.

 

[allantois]

An entire service line at a large hospital would have to shut down. All patients at that hospital who needed that service (interventional radiology) would no longer have access to it. Therefore, those whose insurance coverage is with that hospital system are no longer getting that care and are impacted negatively. Therefore, for the greater good of the community, the judge made the decision that it is okay to sacrifice individual freedoms because it benefits those members of the community who receive their care through the ThedaCare Health System. You would be callous and uncaring if you opposed this and caused the death of persons in the ThedaCare patient population. Why would you suddenly care so much for individual freedom of choice now? You have made your feelings known elsewhere.

The employees are not going back to work at the old hospital, hello??
If anything, they will not work at either hospital come Monday and then if someone gets a stroke and dies, is someone going to hold the judge responsible?

 

[deleted87051]

I’m not familiar with the area but on Google maps, it appears the hospitals are 11min apart.


Also, it appears that Thedacare had a chance to make counteroffers to retain their employees but chose not to.


Thedacare’s trauma center opened to much fanfare in 2019. Maybe they’re finally learning that in order to provide 24/7/365 trauma services, they need to pony up, and not just to the doctors.

We don’t have slavery or indentured servitude in this country. If I was one of the employees involved, I would tell Thedacare to take their job and f’off. Then if the court ordered me back to work, I would call in sick every day. Nobody on this board, even @Gern Blansten, would be willing to be forced back to their old job after they’ve quit. When somebody quits their job, they’ve quit. AMFYOYO!!

 

[Gern Blansten]

The employees are not going back to work at the old hospital, hello??
If anything, they will not work at either hospital come Monday and then if someone gets a stroke and dies, is someone going to hold the judge responsible?

I support individual freedoms and oppose the judge’s ruling. My example is sarcasm to illustrate the hypocrisy of someone (our outspoken colleague chessknt above) who wants individual freedoms in this scenario but demonizes individuals who value individual freedoms in another scenario.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I’m not familiar with the area but on Google maps, it appears the hospitals are 11min apart.


Also, it appears that Thedacare had a chance to make counteroffers to retain their employees but chose not to.

Why should they counter when the judge has done their bidding for them? Government always knows what is best for us. Not sure why we don’t just blindly accept it and let them decide what we need. It’s working very well.

 

[deleted87051]

What to know about the battle over Wisconsin health care workers now playing out in court

ThedaCare pursued legal action to prevent seven health care workers in Wisconsin from starting a new job at a nearby hospital.

www.postcrescent.com

A group of radiology techs and nurses tried to leave ThedaCare (Wisconsin healthcare system) after one of them saw a much better offer with Ascension Healthcare (another Wisconsin healthcare system). Each of these employees were employed at-will, meaning they were not under an obligation to stay at ThedaCare for a certain amount of time. A judge has now ruled that these employees are unable to leave until ThedaCare has found sufficient replacements for them with the argument seemingly being that these employees are necessary for the health of the community. ThedaCare was given sufficient time to counter-offer if it chose to.

If a worker doesn't have the opportunity to leave (having not signed a contract requiring them to stay) then all of the benefits of at-will employment are enjoyed by the employer and not the employee.

I think this is best summed up by the final sentences of the article: After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made.

Looks like Thedacare made a business decision without considering the potential consequence of losing their Trauma II designation. It’s on them.

 

[rowsdower88]

Looks like Thedacare made a business decision without considering the potential consequence of losing their Trauma II designation. It’s on them.

I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out on Monday.

There is already a GoFundMe started for the employees between jobs. ThedaCare Seven - ExEmployee Support Fund, organized by Martin Elkins

>$40,000 raised for 7-8 people by the time of writing.

I can imagine the legal team at ThedaCare telling the administrators how this would be a cosmically stupid move and in all likelihood blow up in their faces. But then being told to shut up and file it anyway.

(I have a rosier view of lawyers than some posters on here, my wife is one.)

 

[deleted87051]

 

[Southpaw]

Everyone sees it. Not surprised that you do not.

Not all individual rights are created equal. Saying you have the right to go to whatever fast food joint you want doesn’t mean you should therefore have the right to spread smallpox. And having the right to refuse vaccination doesn’t grant you the right to do anything else out in the world other than potentially spread disease.

By ruling ‘for the good of the community’ the judge ensures that no one in that community gets care. Those workers aren’t working at either place on Monday because of the ruling.

 

[dhb]

And having the right to refuse vaccination doesn’t grant you the right to do anything else out in the world other than potentially spread disease.

How many times do we have to say that the so called "vaccines" do not prevent infection and transmission.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Not all individual rights are created equal. Saying you have the right to go to whatever fast food joint you want doesn’t mean you should therefore have the right to spread smallpox. And having the right to refuse vaccination doesn’t grant you the right to do anything else out in the world other than potentially spread disease.

By ruling ‘for the good of the community’ the judge ensures that no one in that community gets care. Those workers aren’t working at either place on Monday because of the ruling.

But…the judge’s intent was that they would continue working. Same thing with the people who quit instead of getting the vaccine. The intent of the mandate was to have them get the vaccine and continue working for the betterment of society.
The intent is the same. The freedoms may not be equal to you, but they are still freedoms. It’s a slippery slope to take personal freedoms from people. The funny thing is, once you allow one to be taken, they will always come for more. Maybe you’re okay with the first few freedoms being taken away, but eventually they get to one that matters to you. Then it stings a bit more. People’s opinions on which ones matter are not always the same, as shown in the other thread. Or, some people are better at seeing the big picture.

 

[Southpaw]

But…the judge’s intent was that they would continue working. Same thing with the people who quit instead of getting the vaccine. The intent of the mandate was to have them get the vaccine and continue working for the betterment of society.
The intent is the same. The freedoms may not be equal to you, but they are still freedoms. It’s a slippery slope to take personal freedoms from people. The funny thing is, once you allow one to be taken, they will always come for more. Maybe you’re okay with the first few freedoms being taken away, but eventually they get to one that matters to you. Then it stings a bit more. People’s opinions on which ones matter are not always the same, as shown in the other thread. Or, some people are better at seeing the big picture.

It’s probably overstating it a bit to call it a freedom IMO. It’s more like a choice. No one is forced to get a COVID vaccine. However if you choose not to you may need to work elsewhere. That’s a choice. Not a freedom.

 

[Southpaw]

How many times do we have to say that the so called "vaccines" do not prevent infection and transmission.

Decreases the risk. Prevents risk of hospitalization/ICU and decreases risk of death.

 

[Gern Blansten]

It’s probably overstating it a bit to call it a freedom IMO. It’s more like a choice. No one is forced to get a COVID vaccine. However if you choose not to you may need to work elsewhere. That’s a choice. Not a freedom.

Then the other situation is also not a freedom. They are not being forced to work at ThedaCare, they just can’t work at Ascension. That’s a choice. Good catch on the wording. We can name it what you want.

 

[BLADEMDA]

But…the judge’s intent was that they would continue working. Same thing with the people who quit instead of getting the vaccine. The intent of the mandate was to have them get the vaccine and continue working for the betterment of society.
The intent is the same. The freedoms may not be equal to you, but they are still freedoms. It’s a slippery slope to take personal freedoms from people. The funny thing is, once you allow one to be taken, they will always come for more. Maybe you’re okay with the first few freedoms being taken away, but eventually they get to one that matters to you. Then it stings a bit more. People’s opinions on which ones matter are not always the same, as shown in the other thread. Or, some people are better at seeing the big picture.

I agree with you. In order to "mandate" something against a person's will the science or benefit needs to be irrefutable. That isn't the case with the mRNA vaccine against Omicron nor is it the case where employees want to seek a higher wage in the free market. Without competition, wages would remain stagnant and the employer would keep the salaries of employees artificially low.

Any decent judge would have dismissed the lawsuit forcing hospital A to match the offer at hospital B. That is how it works in our field as well.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Decreases the risk. Prevents risk of hospitalization/ICU and decreases risk of death.

I do not feel any less safe because my colleague is unvaccinated. Those of us who CHOOSE to get vaccinated have the option of a 4th shot which provides protection against Omicron even among those unvaccinated. I recognize that many of you don't see the slippery slope of government intrusion into personal decisions but I can assure you it is clearly there.

I am completely, 100% pro vaccination against disease. But, I am against the mandatory Covid vaccine because Omicron changed the game.

 

[Southpaw]

Then the other situation is also not a freedom. They are not being forced to work at ThedaCare, they just can’t work at Ascension. That’s a choice. Good catch on the wording. We can name it what you want.

They're not currently working anywhere. The community truly suffers because of the ruling. ThedaCare could've salary/benefit matched but they chose not to. And the judge defended that poor decision. It's a wild ruling and it'll get overturned. ThedaCare could've at any point reduced their admin bloat or reduced the CEO salary to pay the workers a market wage, if their margins are that tight. Choices have consequences.

On vaccine mandates, the freedom fighters are decades late. It's been settled and decided. And when it was the slippery slope didn't occur and we didn't descend into totalitarianism.

 

[Gern Blansten]

They're not currently working anywhere. The community truly suffers because of the ruling. ThedaCare could've salary/benefit matched but they chose not to. And the judge defended that poor decision. It's a wild ruling and it'll get overturned. ThedaCare could've at any point reduced their admin bloat or reduced the CEO salary to pay the workers a market wage, if their margins are that tight. Choices have consequences.

On vaccine mandates, the freedom fighters are decades late. It's been settled and decided. And when it was the slippery slope didn't occur and we didn't descend into totalitarianism.

Now those employees work for gofundme money.
You do not see the equivalency because you choose not to. More likely, you do see it, but you refuse to admit it.

 

[allantois]

I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out on Monday.

There is already a GoFundMe started for the employees between jobs. ThedaCare Seven - ExEmployee Support Fund, organized by Martin Elkins

>$40,000 raised for 7-8 people by the time of writing.

I can imagine the legal team at ThedaCare telling the administrators how this would be a cosmically stupid move and in all likelihood blow up in their faces. But then being told to shut up and file it anyway.

(I have a rosier view of lawyers than some posters on here, my wife is one.)

Well they could have resigned instead of going with it. Hope it haunts them in their careers.
Why is it that when judges make wrong decisions (as determined by higher courts) they face no consequences? The same certainly does not hold true for the medical profession.

 

[deleted941485]

View attachment 348814

If they can prevent you from taking another job. Can the courts also force you to work the one your currently have?

 

[rowsdower88]

Now those employees work for gofundme money.
You do not see the equivalency because you choose not to. More likely, you do see it, but you refuse to admit it.

Dude. Go touch grass.

Their GoFundMe is to support potential legal costs and time lost. Framing their joblessness as a bad faith attempt to mooch off others is insulting.

Well they could have resigned instead of going with it. Hope it haunts them in their careers.
Why is it that when judges make wrong decisions (as determined by higher courts) they face no consequences? The same certainly does not hold true for the medical profession.

In all likelihood, they could have been on the same bad side of this. I do think it's stupid to assume someone should resign for arguably representing their clients interests though. At this point, the lawyers representing Thedacare were surprisingly successful and got what their client wanted. Which to many, is the mark of a good lawyer. We can opine on what virtues lawyers should have and express, but to argue that vociferous defense of their clients' interests isn't one of them is weird.

Assuming this gets wrapped up on Monday, I don't think anyone's career will be haunted.