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This is patently ridiculous.
Attention to money...
- Thread starter Venko
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This is patently ridiculous.
When you go employee, some would argue you then have more pressure to work efficiently, see more patients, cut more corners, etc.....the person, group, hospital, whatever you are working for expects you to do one thing: Generate money above and beyond what they pay you *for them*. You do that by seeing patients...as many as possible at the highest level coding possible. I'm skeptical that there are a lot of jobs out there that are going to allow you to play sherlock holmes with old charts......
My guess is VA inpatient is what would suit you best. No financial accountability, very light patient loads, lack of real pressure to turn over beds, etc......of course VA inpatient has its own downsides, but it doesn't sound like the way you want to work is cut out/compatibile with the real world
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I've been on this forum for years. I think this is one of the only times where we've talked money as much.
I can say this only for myself. I am talking about money because I am out of residency, my options are many, and what I choose does affect how much money I make. While being a resident, I was more concerned with issues such as passing step III and the psych board exam, then fellowship, and not so much money cause I knew that would come later on.
I also discussed treatment of patients and venting on my professional situations more so than now because I lacked experience that I now have, and that I have colleagues that are top people in the field that I can ask for help. I'm an attending now, not a resident so I think my presence here should be more of giving information than asking now.
I can say this only for myself. I am talking about money because I am out of residency, my options are many, and what I choose does affect how much money I make. While being a resident, I was more concerned with issues such as passing step III and the psych board exam, then fellowship, and not so much money cause I knew that would come later on.
I also discussed treatment of patients and venting on my professional situations more so than now because I lacked experience that I now have, and that I have colleagues that are top people in the field that I can ask for help. I'm an attending now, not a resident so I think my presence here should be more of giving information than asking now.
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And also factor in that you got to pay staff, buy equipment, pay malpractice, have an accountant, lawyer, and office manager....
Well in the end you could make a lot of money but of that 575,000, expect to not keep at least $150K of it.
Still though, very good overall.
This is just for me. I wouldn't want to do private practice all the time . For whatever reason, I've found inpatient to be my clinical backbone. And PP has it's pitfalls. It's freaking annoying seeing a patient for 30 minutes and in the last 30 seconds they ask you to fill out disability forms that could take 30 minutes to fill out. It's annoying being couped up in an office all day long when in a hospital you can walk around go to the cafeteria, spread your legs, chat with colleagues, and take a break once in awhile. It's also annoying being in a situation where you see the patient, write a script for labs and the labs won't get done for a few days and you want the patient on lithium sooner than that.
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We have already started turning patients away because of this. Especially now that we are getting close to paying off our overhead. Case management from my other job kicks ass btw-- IMO that is worth the extra $100/hr. I do have some solid therapy patients which I am very happy about though: 1 CBT and 1 Psychodynamic patient. The relationship is great but difficult to maintain with a large volume of patients. At this point we just need to prove to the IRS that our pp is more than just a hobby and actually turn a profit.
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Why shouldn't Psychiatrists make money, or be concerned for their financial future and welfare? The idea of the completely altruistic Doctor, who's doing it purely for the love of helping people is a nice one, but completely unworkable in a real world scenario. You can't help people properly if you don't look after yourself first and you're drowning in stress from debt and unpaid bills.
From a patient's point of view, if I'm sitting in front of a Therapist who looks tired and stressed out, because they've got student loans still hanging over there head, and they don't know how they're going to pay this fortnight's rent, and they're behind in bills, etc etc, I'm probably going to pick up on that, and then I'm probably going to be less likely to open up about my own issues. Contrast that with a Psychiatrist that has a good financial plan in place, can pay bills, live comfortably, and comes to work relaxed and happy (other non financial work related issues aside of course), and that's a Psychiatrist I'd much rather work with.
Go forth and finance, I say. You' do a valuable community service, and you've earned it. 🙂
From a patient's point of view, if I'm sitting in front of a Therapist who looks tired and stressed out, because they've got student loans still hanging over there head, and they don't know how they're going to pay this fortnight's rent, and they're behind in bills, etc etc, I'm probably going to pick up on that, and then I'm probably going to be less likely to open up about my own issues. Contrast that with a Psychiatrist that has a good financial plan in place, can pay bills, live comfortably, and comes to work relaxed and happy (other non financial work related issues aside of course), and that's a Psychiatrist I'd much rather work with.
Go forth and finance, I say. You' do a valuable community service, and you've earned it. 🙂
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My philosophy is so long as you earned your money by following the rules, it's ethical, and you're adding to society, you owe no one an apology and deserve to feel pride in doing so.
A plumber I always use does great work. I am happy to give him my money. He deserved it. Friends of mine that know plumbing recommended him because like a used car salesman (or doctor), the person has more knowledge and can manipulate you to do the wrong thing that's more profitable for them. He doesn't do that. Doesn't a professional that gives out good work deserve more compensation? (A plumber was going to charge me more than twice what this guy did. He came in, told me what I needed, showed me where the other plumber was going to screw me over, and has always done good for for my friends and I).
If you want to be a doctor that doesn't make any money, more power to you. See patients for free, go out of business, and sleep in the homeless shelter. You'll be able to survive on a multivitamin, some oatmeal mixed with whey protein. If that makes you feel better, who am I to judge you? Yeah I'm being a bit ridiculous because no one, even the people that may be pointing out that we are talking about money too much would likely agree to that. My point is there'll always be someone to the left of you saying you make too much money no matter how much money you make, even if you don't make much at all.
More realistically, if you don't want to make as much money, fine. IMHO, someone wanting to manage their student loans, get paid what they're worth, and wanting the most out of life, so long as you're doing good practice and following the rules, you deserve that.
And guess what? I mentioned before that I'm actually earning less money because I'm working for the university. As a result I'm donating less money too. I donate to the church, the Christopher Reeve Foundation, the Cincinnati Opera Company, among a few others.
If you don't understand that one can be more altruistic with more money, you are foregoing some basic principles in math. Have more money, you can donate more money.
A plumber I always use does great work. I am happy to give him my money. He deserved it. Friends of mine that know plumbing recommended him because like a used car salesman (or doctor), the person has more knowledge and can manipulate you to do the wrong thing that's more profitable for them. He doesn't do that. Doesn't a professional that gives out good work deserve more compensation? (A plumber was going to charge me more than twice what this guy did. He came in, told me what I needed, showed me where the other plumber was going to screw me over, and has always done good for for my friends and I).
If you want to be a doctor that doesn't make any money, more power to you. See patients for free, go out of business, and sleep in the homeless shelter. You'll be able to survive on a multivitamin, some oatmeal mixed with whey protein. If that makes you feel better, who am I to judge you? Yeah I'm being a bit ridiculous because no one, even the people that may be pointing out that we are talking about money too much would likely agree to that. My point is there'll always be someone to the left of you saying you make too much money no matter how much money you make, even if you don't make much at all.
More realistically, if you don't want to make as much money, fine. IMHO, someone wanting to manage their student loans, get paid what they're worth, and wanting the most out of life, so long as you're doing good practice and following the rules, you deserve that.
And guess what? I mentioned before that I'm actually earning less money because I'm working for the university. As a result I'm donating less money too. I donate to the church, the Christopher Reeve Foundation, the Cincinnati Opera Company, among a few others.
If you don't understand that one can be more altruistic with more money, you are foregoing some basic principles in math. Have more money, you can donate more money.
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You have a right to disagree, but not to dismiss any criticism of money or the capitalistic system as "patently ridiculous" especially when medicine is involved. I hate to turn into arguments from authority, but I'm sure great thinkers like Noam Chomsky and Emma Goldman were being patently ridiculous when they described capitalism as wage slavery. 🙄 Of course the current system is so entrenched in our culture that it's almost impossible to look beyond it, and we're programmed to accept it as some de facto correct and only way.
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deleted480308
Yes, they were being ridiculous
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I think a few of your phrases are excessive and detrimental to your point which I grant you--how you conduct yourself is more important than how much money you make.
I'm not aware of Chomsky criticizing the mechanics of capitalism as opposed to its corporate manipulation. But I could be wrong. Regardless if we wanted to practice medicine free of capital influence we'd have to apply to work in let's see....North Korea--that sounds awesome, Cuba....I can't think of anywhere else.
I guess I just don't get the idea that making money is evil. Evil is evil. Some of the most vile regimes in the history of man have been anti-capital. So, you have your work cut out for you as a socialist. Given the world has yet to produce the socialist utopia it conceptualizes.
I've been a unskilled laborer all my life. You're welcome to it. I aim to provide for my family several of whom have lent me large amounts of money to fund my education--in addition to what I owe the Feds. When whopper or any other skilled financial person talks money I'm getting out my slate like a schoolboy. No rich, hippy lamenting the evil of money ever did **** for me or anyone else I speculate.
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deleted480308
I know what you are saying, I'm on my way to hand carry concrete in buckets for the afternoon right now....can't wait for school to start
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Kind of agree and I think the two authors above did take it too far.
I'm using a Biblical reference (not to be religious but historical). Tax collectors, back in the day, were almost the equivalent of having a license to print free money, They took people's taxes, due to lack of good records or computers, they got away with almost everything, from making fake taxes, arbitrary ones, to taxing some people more or less based on favoritism. They did not work hard and got away with almost anything.
So, naturally, everyone hated them. A tax collector today is nowhere on the same equivalent.
Capitalism has a good and long history of abuses. Even the founder of capitalism, Adam Smith, said some types of regulations are needed and it should only be used in the positive sense---> for producers to have competition so they make a better product at a fair price for the consumer. Everyone should win.
(Several talking heads mislead the public, equating capitalism with NO REGULATION. Smith himself said that you need regulation only up until there's competition at a fair level, then no more regulation above that. Several areas of business do require regulation).
Which is why I say you deserve your money if you earned it fairly.
If someone didn't, for example run a pill mill (not a methadone clinic that was very well run, I'm taking one of those Vicoden outlets advertised next to the hooker section in the local city beat), I'd happily see that person lose his license and face prison time. If anyone has read my posts, you know I rant all the time about poor practice. If you do good practice, of course you deserve the money you rightfully earned.
And I'm a happy supporter of several businesses that are magnanimous with their money. E.g. the CEO of Costco only makes 350K a year. I like that. He puts the money that would've gone into a multimillion dollar salary for his workers.
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Yeah, but what is his net Worth? Buffet also has a small salary
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I read about this back when and was surprised. His salary was $350K in base, with bonuses it came to $629K. Still way low for a CEO of a company of that kind of revenue.
But his package is stock heavy. In 2011 alone he exercised $12.5 million in stock options. His multimillion dollar salary didn't go to his workers, it went into his stock portfolio. I like the dude, but I wouldn't use him as an example of egalitarianism at work.
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Well that's good to know! Still though, he's getting paid much less than most people in his position but then 350K alone then would be a misleading statement.
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He's a good guy, though. And a great symbol for what good corporate leadership looks like.
I'm a big fan of stock incentives. If you tank your company, you get nothing but if it succeeds you reap the benefit. That's capitalism. $15 million dollar salaries isn't.
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Building a resume to the point where a corporate board believes you are worth $15million....them voluntariy offering the money, and you voluntarily accepting the position is still capitalism. And it would be for any number
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Except all the CEO's are on each others boards and keep voting to increase each others benefits. That's not some august body that weighs how much you're worth to the company and pays you based on that. It's a bunch of buddies in a select club looking out for each other and giving them golden parachutes even when they fail miserably.
That's why the average CEO and executive salaries have increased a ridiculous amount compared to the average worker.
That's why the average CEO and executive salaries have increased a ridiculous amount compared to the average worker.
