Attrition Rate In Omfs

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i was going through the UT san antonio website and noticed that one of the ortho residents used to be an omfs resident and dropped of after his MD degree, 😕 is this fairly common?
i have heard that omfs has the highest attrition rate amongst all dental specialties how true is this?
please share experiences in your program

 

[north2southOMFS]

I heard about that UT san antonio OMFS resident that turned into an ortho resident. I heard he is a really big geek and likes star wars way too much.


Alright, fine. All i know is that everyone at our program has stayed after med school and finished the program except one which was before my time. I was told he actually left OMFS after the MD to go to family practice.... 😱 I don't understand it either, so don't ask.

 

[Jediwendell]

i was going through the UT san antonio website and noticed that one of the ortho residents used to be an omfs resident and dropped of after his MD degree, 😕 is this fairly common?
i have heard that omfs has the highest attrition rate amongst all dental specialties how true is this?
please share experiences in your program

Yeah, I'm that dude. OMS is a hard road, and it is difficult to really get a handle on what you are getting into from externships. I know of a lot of people that haven't made it through (either by choice or not). OMS is six years of your life, and it certainly isn't an easy residency. Compare that to endo or pedo at two years, and most people feel that they can put up with anything for two years.

May the force be with you.

 

[toofache32]

We poke a lot of fun at JediWendall and he's a really good sport. I think it would take a lot of soul-searching and sucking up your pride to "move to the dark side" like that, but it's definately better to find out now rather than later. You gotta respect that. Not to mention being able to run your own codes when a bonding goes bad.

 

[aphistis]

Not to mention being able to run your own codes when a bonding goes bad.

Dammit, man, you need to put a warning before posts like this so people like me can put down our Pepsi first. I hope my nose stops burning by morning.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

All i know is that everyone at our program has stayed after med school and finished the program except one which was before my time.

I'm just hoping to make it to medical school. Study for "the Quiz" in progress. Lysosomal storage diseases blow. If I ever come across a patient with one, they're f*cked unless a nurse can help me out. Jedi, have you made a good impression for us OMFSers? Depending on how April 3rd goes, I may be asking for more information...

 

[esclavo]

i was going through the UT san antonio website and noticed that one of the ortho residents used to be an omfs resident and dropped of after his MD degree, 😕 is this fairly common?
i have heard that omfs has the highest attrition rate amongst all dental specialties how true is this?
please share experiences in your program

Some people like wendell leave because they realize they chose erroneously for themselves. Others are "asked" to leave. I know plenty of situations where if they guy isn't cutting it mentally or physically that he/she is asked to leave. I think that this is healthy in many ways. A specialty that doesn't have a high standard or laxes its standards to "get someone through" only hurts itself in the future.

In OMFS it is an embaressment for a program to have a grad not become board certified. Yet 24-27% of people will not pass the written boards and approximately 20% will not pass the oral boards. That means approximately 35-40% of OMFS won't become board certified. Retake rates are pitiful (less than 5% of those who fail will go on to pass on the second shot!). These rough percentages have held for quite some time. Thus programs want strong people. Why put someone into the profession who you have doubts about? It only hurts our profession. You don't want to be in the bottom 1/3 of the pack of your comparable residents. They most likely will not become board certified. Why waste the training, time, energy on someone who is a long-shot (if a shot at all) at ever passsing the boards? Thus the attrition rate in OMFS. I support a healthy attrition rate. I think it weeds out the weak and keeps the pack strong....Darwin had it right!! Training is an challenging opportunity not a charity event.

 

[gary_ruska]

Some people like wendell leave because they realize they chose erroneously for themselves. Others are "asked" to leave. I know plenty of situations where if they guy isn't cutting it mentally or physically that he/she is asked to leave. I think that this is healthy in many ways. A specialty that doesn't have a high standard or laxes its standards to "get someone through" only hurts itself in the future.

In OMFS it is an embaressment for a program to have a grad not become board certified. Yet 24-27% of people will not pass the written boards and approximately 20% will not pass the oral boards. That means approximately 35-40% of OMFS won't become board certified. Retake rates are pitiful (less than 5% of those who fail will go on to pass on the second shot!). These rough percentages have held for quite some time. Thus programs want strong people. Why put someone into the profession who you have doubts about? It only hurts our profession. You don't want to be in the bottom 1/3 of the pack of your comparable residents. They most likely will not become board certified. Why waste the training, time, energy on someone who is a long-shot (if a shot at all) at ever passsing the boards? Thus the attrition rate in OMFS. I support a healthy attrition rate. I think it weeds out the weak and keeps the pack strong....Darwin had it right!! Training is an challenging opportunity not a charity event.

Gary Ruska agrees with the mighty Esclavo. Long live Esclavo (and, of course, Gary Ruska)!!!!

 

[adamlc18]

Some people like wendell leave because they realize they chose erroneously for themselves. Others are "asked" to leave. I know plenty of situations where if they guy isn't cutting it mentally or physically that he/she is asked to leave. I think that this is healthy in many ways. A specialty that doesn't have a high standard or laxes its standards to "get someone through" only hurts itself in the future.

In OMFS it is an embaressment for a program to have a grad not become board certified. Yet 24-27% of people will not pass the written boards and approximately 20% will not pass the oral boards. That means approximately 35-40% of OMFS won't become board certified. Retake rates are pitiful (less than 5% of those who fail will go on to pass on the second shot!). These rough percentages have held for quite some time. Thus programs want strong people. Why put someone into the profession who you have doubts about? It only hurts our profession. You don't want to be in the bottom 1/3 of the pack of your comparable residents. They most likely will not become board certified. Why waste the training, time, energy on someone who is a long-shot (if a shot at all) at ever passsing the boards? Thus the attrition rate in OMFS. I support a healthy attrition rate. I think it weeds out the weak and keeps the pack strong....Darwin had it right!! Training is an challenging opportunity not a charity event.

I was wondering if the 24-27% who do not pass written boards also comprise most of the 20% who don't pass oral boards? 40% not getting board certified seems really high. If the percentage of those not passing boards is that high, to what do most residents attribute it to? Laziness on the art of the resident, lack of understanding/mental capability, etc?

 

[esclavo]

I was wondering if the 24-27% who do not pass written boards also comprise most of the 20% who don't pass oral boards? 40% not getting board certified seems really high. If the percentage of those not passing boards is that high, to what do most residents attribute it to? Laziness on the art of the resident, lack of understanding/mental capability, etc?

You can't sit for oral boards until you pass written boards. Honestly I think 5-10% of residents are a long shot-should never have matched because they aren't qualified. These are the kind that should be weeded out through the residency training. "Hey bud, you don't cut it. You aren't thorough, you don't have the mental sharpness, you are lazy and can't do the work that is necessary to learn and grow... what ever it is"

The other 10-15 percent I believe are lazy and don't prepare well enough. You take written boards about 7-8 months after graduating from your program and then you take orals one year after that. It takes alot of work, every day to keep growing, learning, reviewing to be ready to do well. Essentially fatigue starts to factor in after 4 years of residency. I know a few guys who just couldn't buckle down and keep the mental sharpness up and the information fresh. If you pass the written then you have to prepare for a year for the oral boards. This is meant to nail another 15-20% of people. In all 35-40 percent of guys just won't pass boards on the first attempt. If you fail, the chance of passing isn't good-less than 10 percent of that 35-40 percent will go on and successfully pass boards. It is strenuous. Boards are to make sure that what happened in residency sticks and that you develop the life long attribute of staying sharp, reading, learning, growing, understanding. It verifies that those who have had specialty training really do possess the right stuff to get the ringing endorsement of the specialty...it give the public the assurance that the self regulation of the profession is stringent.

 

[Yah-E]

Yet 24-27% of people will not pass the written boards and approximately 20% will not pass the oral boards. That means approximately 35-40% of OMFS won't become board certified. Retake rates are pitiful (less than 5% of those who fail will go on to pass on the second shot!).

Couple of things:

1) The numbers you've listed are close, but retake success rates are a bit higher for both written and oral:

WRITTEN
ORAL

2) Since the ABOMS Written Qualifying Examination tests the same topics as OMSSAT topics, I believe now there are more studying tools to prepare the ABOMS written exam using the released the OMSSAT exams with explanations. Since 2004, ABOMS started to release OMSSAT exams.

ABOMS Written Examed Topics

Esclavo, things aren't as bad as you portraited them to be. 😉

 

[omfs44]

Some people like wendell leave because they realize they chose erroneously for themselves. Others are "asked" to leave. I know plenty of situations where if they guy isn't cutting it mentally or physically that he/she is asked to leave. I think that this is healthy in many ways. A specialty that doesn't have a high standard or laxes its standards to "get someone through" only hurts itself in the future.

In OMFS it is an embaressment for a program to have a grad not become board certified. Yet 24-27% of people will not pass the written boards and approximately 20% will not pass the oral boards. That means approximately 35-40% of OMFS won't become board certified. Retake rates are pitiful (less than 5% of those who fail will go on to pass on the second shot!). These rough percentages have held for quite some time. Thus programs want strong people. Why put someone into the profession who you have doubts about? It only hurts our profession. You don't want to be in the bottom 1/3 of the pack of your comparable residents. They most likely will not become board certified. Why waste the training, time, energy on someone who is a long-shot (if a shot at all) at ever passsing the boards? Thus the attrition rate in OMFS. I support a healthy attrition rate. I think it weeds out the weak and keeps the pack strong....Darwin had it right!! Training is an challenging opportunity not a charity event.

OMFS is not as hard and complicated as your described, it's all about the 3rd, the reason why omfs is 4 years of residency (not including medschool) is because it takes one year to master to pull each third. 😀

 

[esclavo]

Couple of things:

1) The numbers you've listed are close, but retake success rates are a bit higher for both written and oral:

WRITTEN
ORAL

2) Since the ABOMS Written Qualifying Examination tests the same topics as OMSSAT topics, I believe now there are more studying tools to prepare the ABOMS written exam using the released the OMSSAT exams with explanations. Since 2004, ABOMS started to release OMSSAT exams.

ABOMS Written Examed Topics

Esclavo, things aren't as bad as you portraited them to be. 😉

Yahe I have numbers 10 years running from the Denver Board Review Course. You are looking at a single year. I have summed up 10 years. My N number is 10 yours is 1. Last year was a little light compared to prior years. Must have been a good year. So if 20-30 percent don't pass part one that leaves 70-80% that move on to take orals. If 17-23% don't pass orals then you are left with roughly 35-40 percent of the ORIGINAL number not passing boards (basic math). I stand corrected on the retake number that correctly pass. It is higher than I alluded but not nearly as high passing it the first time! The real question you have to ask yourself is are you in the bottom 1/3 for those of your same year? Be worried. Be motivated. The bullseye is on you...if you were a cow back on the ranch, and you were running in the back 1/3 of the pack... you could get culled!

I have been fortunate to do very well on OMSAT both times I have taken it. But when I go back and look at those old questions from these two exams, I'm not reassured. There is some tricky material. And what was on the real board exams from the past two years has been a significant increase in complexity and difficulty from those questions on the OMSAT. I have that as first word from my colleagues who have taken it. They said don't be lulled away into a false sense of security by OMSAT. I didn't get into this profession and I didn't give it 4 years of my life to not pass boards. After about 6 months in my residency, I had no doubt I had what it took to get through residency and do well. The thing that I have been worrying about every since then is if I can pass boards. Becoming a diplomate says tons more than matriculating from an OMFs program. It is the next mountain peek on the horizon....and it is higher than the other ones....it is betting the whole pot on two days....

 

[White Zin]

Yahe I have numbers 10 years running from the Denver Board Review Course. You are looking at a single year. I have summed up 10 years. My N number is 10 yours is 1. Last year was a little light compared to prior years. Must have been a good year. So if 20-30 percent don't pass part one that leaves 70-80% that move on to take orals. If 17-23% don't pass orals then you are left with roughly 35-40 percent of the ORIGINAL number not passing boards (basic math). I stand corrected on the retake number that correctly pass. It is higher than I alluded but not nearly as high passing it the first time! The real question you have to ask yourself is are you in the bottom 1/3 for those of your same year? Be worried. Be motivated. The bullseye is on you...if you were a cow back on the ranch, and you were running in the back 1/3 of the pack... you could get culled!

I have been fortunate to do very well on OMSAT both times I have taken it. But when I go back and look at those old questions from these two exams, I'm not reassured. There is some tricky material. And what was on the real board exams from the past two years has been a significant increase in complexity and difficulty from those questions on the OMSAT. I have that as first word from my colleagues who have taken it. They said don't be lulled away into a false sense of security by OMSAT. I didn't get into this profession and I didn't give it 4 years of my life to not pass boards. After about 6 months in my residency, I had no doubt I had what it took to get through residency and do well. The thing that I have been worrying about every since then is if I can pass boards. Becoming a diplomate says tons more than matriculating from an OMFs program. It is the next mountain peek on the horizon....and it is higher than the other ones....it is betting the whole pot on two days....

Anyone know which programs are sort of the dregs?

 

[north2southOMFS]

Yah, people are really going to answer that question. I'd figure it out for myself if i were you.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Yahe I have numbers 10 years running from the Denver Board Review Course. You are looking at a single year. I have summed up 10 years. My N number is 10 yours is 1. Last year was a little light compared to prior years. Must have been a good year. So if 20-30 percent don't pass part one that leaves 70-80% that move on to take orals. If 17-23% don't pass orals then you are left with roughly 35-40 percent of the ORIGINAL number not passing boards (basic math). I stand corrected on the retake number that correctly pass. It is higher than I alluded but not nearly as high passing it the first time! The real question you have to ask yourself is are you in the bottom 1/3 for those of your same year? Be worried. Be motivated. The bullseye is on you...if you were a cow back on the ranch, and you were running in the back 1/3 of the pack... you could get culled!

I have been fortunate to do very well on OMSAT both times I have taken it. But when I go back and look at those old questions from these two exams, I'm not reassured. There is some tricky material. And what was on the real board exams from the past two years has been a significant increase in complexity and difficulty from those questions on the OMSAT. I have that as first word from my colleagues who have taken it. They said don't be lulled away into a false sense of security by OMSAT. I didn't get into this profession and I didn't give it 4 years of my life to not pass boards. After about 6 months in my residency, I had no doubt I had what it took to get through residency and do well. The thing that I have been worrying about every since then is if I can pass boards. Becoming a diplomate says tons more than matriculating from an OMFs program. It is the next mountain peek on the horizon....and it is higher than the other ones....it is betting the whole pot on two days....

That mushroom-shaped imprint on your forehead stings, eh, Yah-E? It's OK, that's why the program is six years--five to get used to repeated tip-smacks and one to let the wounds granulate in.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

So, in light of this, what are some programs to stay away from? I'd imagine there are certain programs that are notorious for accepting/producing crappy people. Anyone know which programs are sort of the dregs?

All I know is that UAB pulled a couple of weak-sticks in the draft this year... 😉

 

[esclavo]

So, in light of this, what are some programs to stay away from? I'd imagine there are certain programs that are notorious for accepting/producing crappy people. Anyone know which programs are sort of the dregs?

Programs can't produce crappy people. They can under challenge, under expose and under stimulate a good person but they can't turn him into a crappy person. If he is sharp, he'll fight and rise to the top. His personal initiative will get him where he wants to go. On the other hand, if a person is crappy, it is challenging for a program to rehabilitate him. The two large things that I don't believe are rehabilitatable are 1. native intelligence 2. work ethic/drive for the specialty.

My chief (when I was a first year) didn't have great native intelligence. No matter the remediation he was given. They sent him to courses, whipped his !@#$, threatened him, worked him down to nothing but it just couldn't be changed. I've seen others who are so lazy, so disinterested, so soft, so work brittle, sneeze...sneeze I think I need a day off. Can't do anything about it. Crazy enough, I've seen some with both!!! Never should be in OMFS! Blind fate, bad luck, emotional blackmail, politics, weak moment of those who make the final decision, being drunk while entering in the final match list... you name it some how they sneak in. Greatfully it is few, but even those few are a big mistake. They should be shown the door. The crazy thing is some don't know they are the "lazy" or the "soft". Most who don't have the native intelligence do know it most of the time...

 

[Yah-E]

if you were a cow back on the ranch, and you were running in the back 1/3 of the pack... you could get culled!

Aren't the cows in the front of the pack enter the slaughter houses first? 😀

About your 10 year stats, true that is the last 10 years. I am willing to bet that from 2004 - 2014, those passing rates will increase! Why? Because, I'll go back to it again, we have better ways to prep for the ABOMS boards:

1) OMSSAT released exams, year after year = > test question bank
2) More Board review courses => Miami, Denver, Minneapolis, New Orleans...
3) Mock boards b/n intrastate residencies: MetroHealth faculty test CWRU residents and vise versa

I understand your point, just because we've made through MATCH, we still have to work hard and there are plenty of loops (ei exams) to jump through, but I can assure you one thing, you're preaching to the wrong group of newbies bro! Most of us on SDN are pretty ambious and academically focused.

Another point, there will always be lazy and passive personalities out there in whatever profession. Sure, if indeed OMFS has a such high board passing rate, then what does Plastics have? What does ENT have? What does Derm have?

I'm sure no specialties out there has a 90% passing rate year after year.

 

[River13]

Yah-e needs to worry about Step 1 more than anything else... 😉

 

[Yah-E]

Yah-e needs to worry about Step 1 more than anything else... 😉

I am so glad to see you back! I thought you drowned or something!

I have gathered some pretty amazing studying prep materials already and have started to read the 2006 edition of First Aid. No worries, I'm going after a 230 baby!

Again, great to see you on here and look forward to puke wit ya again on our fishing trip, if we have one this year! 👍 BTW, I'll catch way more fish than you this time!!

 

[TiggerJSA]

All I know is that UAB pulled a couple of weak-sticks in the draft this year... 😉

😱 😡 😍

 

[north2southOMFS]

Yah-e needs to worry about Step 1 more than anything else... 😉

amen to this. All that omsat, board review....etc nonsense doesn't mean anything yah-e if you don't pass step 1. After you pass step one, then you can aspire to be the best oral surgeon in the universe.

 

[Extraction]

I am so glad to see you back! I thought you drowned or something!

I have gathered some pretty amazing studying prep materials already and have started to read the 2006 edition of First Aid. No worries, I'm going after a 230 baby!

Again, great to see you on here and look forward to puke wit ya again on our fishing trip, if we have one this year! 👍 BTW, I'll catch way more fish than you this time!!

I really hope you aren't studying for the USMLE. Enjoy your last semester. All you need is the first aid and the appleton and lange question book..... remember 2 weeks, 2 days, 2 pencils. Why a 230? its only the 80th percentile. 😉

 

[esclavo]

Aren't the cows in the front of the pack enter the slaughter houses first? 😀

you have this all wrong... its the upcoming interns in the front of the pack enter the slaughter houses first I didn't know you knew anything about cows, but the cows in the back of the herd are slow/need coaxing(poked with the cattle prod) thus you get rid of them. You sell these to the slaughter house

About your 10 year stats, true that is the last 10 years. I am willing to bet that from 2004 - 2014, those passing rates will increase! Why? Because, I'll go back to it again, we have better ways to prep for the ABOMS boards:

1) OMSSAT released exams, year after year = > test question bank
2) More Board review courses => Miami, Denver, Minneapolis, New Orleans...
3) Mock boards b/n intrastate residencies: MetroHealth faculty test CWRU residents and vise versa

I wouldn't put my money on that test bank from what I've heard from our past 2 chiefs-they studied heavily off the past two years OMSAT questions. Didn't help much at all.

I can assure you one thing, you're preaching to the wrong group of newbies bro! Most of us on SDN are pretty ambious and academically focused.

Another point, there will always be lazy and passive personalities out there in whatever profession. Sure, if indeed OMFS has a such high board passing rate, then what does Plastics have? What does ENT have? What does Derm have?

I'm sure no specialties out there has a 90% passing rate year after year.

alright, I won't preach anymore to you Yah-E nor anyone else who feels that passing ABOMS is going to be routing...I'll change the subject.... what is the pass rate on part I medical boards, part II?

 

[Yah-E]

alright, I won't preach anymore to you Yah-E nor anyone else who feels that passing ABOMS is going to be routing...I'll change the subject.... what is the pass rate on part I medical boards, part II?

For allopathic students it's high in the 90%, for osteopathic students it's in the high 70s%, and for international doctors it's in the 50% passing in the first attempt.

For OMFS residents? Who knows? This would be a good topic JOMS manuscript submission.

Why a 230? its only the 80th percentile.

Shoot, recent Step 1 passing scores is already in the 200s (inflation) in comparison to only a 187 back couple of years ago. I figured by the time I take it next year, a score of 230 should put me in a safe range?! 😱

 

[esclavo]

For allopathic students it's high in the 90%, for osteopathic students it's in the high 70s%, and for international doctors it's in the 50% passing in the first attempt.

For OMFS residents? Who knows? This would be a good topic JOMS manuscript submission.


Shoot, recent Step 1 passing scores is already in the 200s (inflation) in comparison to only a 187 back couple of years ago. I figured by the time I take it next year, a score of 230 should put me in a safe range?! 😱

So how many times more likely is it to fail ABOMS than USMLE I? Compare the average medical student vs the average OMFS resident. Which group has the highest % of slouches? I would much rather take USMLE I than ABOMS and I would much rather compete against medical students than an OMFS resident. My talk of board stringency and difficulty is justified I believe... maybe I can be enlightened by one more informed than I....I think healthy attrition from OMFS is good (whatever the percentage is 5-10%?????)...

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I would much rather take USMLE I than ABOMS and I would much rather compete against medical students than an OMFS resident.

You've just said the one thing that could make this month of USMLE studying more miserable--the idea that this isn't going to be the hardest test that I'll ever take. F***! I can't wait until this is over...(the Quiz, I mean)...

 

[rrc]

So how many times more likely is it to fail ABOMS than USMLE I? Compare the average medical student vs the average OMFS resident. Which group has the highest % of slouches? I would much rather take USMLE I than ABOMS and I would much rather compete against medical students than an OMFS resident. My talk of board stringency and difficulty is justified I believe... maybe I can be enlightened by one more informed than I....I think healthy attrition from OMFS is good (whatever the percentage is 5-10%?????)...

The USMLE's steps I, II, and III were much harder tests than the written ABOMS, imho. Every question in the USMLE's were 1-2 paragraphs and painfully long and detailed. The ABOMS were a single sentence with short multiple choice answers. The ABOMS takes 3 hours while the USMLE III takes 2 days.

 

[esclavo]

You've just said the one thing that could make this month of USMLE studying more miserable--the idea that this isn't going to be the hardest test that I'll ever take. F***! I can't wait until this is over...(the Quiz, I mean)...

Sorry, erase my prior post from your mind. A guy can only tackle one mountain at a time. The last think you want to hear when you are climbing K2 (and puking for altitude sickness) is that Everest is just a few countries over and it is even higher.... I get your point... good luck studying 👍 I just cringe at the thought of being a student again. I respect those who take USMLE I. It is a tough, broad examination that speaks alot of didactic knowledge. I almost did it just for kicks. I like challenges, but I hate short coats and not having my finger in the wound 🙂

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I almost did it just for kicks.

I knew you were a sick bastard, but not that sick... 😉