Attrition rates

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

europeman

Trauma Surgeon / Intensivist
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
440
Reaction score
23
Points
4,601
  1. Attending Physician
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
How do you find out how many people quit a program? who do you ask without looking weird on the interview? this has been an issue for me... i mean, if a place is dropping 2 people per year as opposed to none over the last 5 years, there *HAS* to be something different about the programs. thoughts?
 
You can ask residents during the dinner before/after the interview. You can also ask the program director if it's a significant number - they should be able to explain it.
 
Definately ask. They expect you to. Also findout what those people went on to do. Left medicine completely? Switched specialty? or went to another program? I think most programs with tell you surgery has a 20% attrition nationally, and that it may be on the rise because of all the people that ran to it after work hours came about.
 
20%!!!! What the H*%*? That's ridiculously high! Is that accurate? That's one in five residents quit! my god. Are you sure that's the AVERAGE?!?!?!

I'm just surprised, 'cuz i'm in medical school at a particulary known "malignant" place, and the attrition rate here is about 10%. i can't imagine it being THAT much higher anywhere else.

20% for how long? last year? or the last several years? thanks!
 
20%!!!! What the H*%*? That's ridiculously high! Is that accurate? That's one in five residents quit! my god. Are you sure that's the AVERAGE?!?!?!

I'm just surprised, 'cuz i'm in medical school at a particulary known "malignant" place, and the attrition rate here is about 10%. i can't imagine it being THAT much higher anywhere else.

20% for how long? last year? or the last several years? thanks!

I'll search around, but I think I remember that number (20%) being out there a bit when I was interviewing.
 
20%!!!! What the H*%*? That's ridiculously high! Is that accurate? That's one in five residents quit! my god. Are you sure that's the AVERAGE?!?!?!

I'm just surprised, 'cuz i'm in medical school at a particulary known "malignant" place, and the attrition rate here is about 10%. i can't imagine it being THAT much higher anywhere else.

20% for how long? last year? or the last several years? thanks!

I'm told that nationally, the average attrition rate among all General Surgery residents is around 20%.
 
Here is an article with the gender based attrition rates
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/jr/1998/00000077/00000001/art05335

this is likely the article that many PD refer to
http://archsurg.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/137/11/1262

That's pretty old data. The first article came out in 1998 and the second article, while published in 2002, is (a) still pre-80 hours and (b) languished in the delayed-publishing zone (one of the authors is currently a PGY-6 at my program, yet wrote this while in medical school; do the math on that one). I believe the number of female applicants is up to around 50%. That said, the attrition rate may still be that high. There was a thread here not too long ago by an intern at a program with a >50% attrition rate in his/her class at his/her program.

EDIT:
Here is a link to an article from SLUser's turf.
Here is another.
It looks like they are still the same as they were.
 
20%!!!! What the H*%*? That's ridiculously high! Is that accurate? That's one in five residents quit! my god. Are you sure that's the AVERAGE?!?!?!

As mentioned above, that's the quoted data. Somebody has a pre/post 80 hr attrition paper out and it hadn't changed much, but if it were to change, I suspect it will take years to show up.

Keep in mind that the 20% rate is the number who leave during all of residency - not just interns. GS, more than most, generates people who change course well into their training.
 
I will be interested to see the data as well, particularly the effect of gender as more women enter surgery and the pre/post 80 hr data. But I don't see it being any less or more than the oft quoted 20%.

In my experience, we had 50% female residents, but most of those who left were male. We had one female Prelim who switched to Ob-Gyn and we had one female who finished her residency, went on to get an MBA and never practiced surgery. Of course, we fired a few as well, although they stayed in surgery, just at other programs.

At any rate, DO ask and make sure you understand where they went (ie, another specialty vs another surgery program) and whether or not they were Prelims vs Categoricals, and what year they left. I'd expect to be asked during interviews so it shouldn't come as a suprise.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Any discussion of attrition should only include the categorical residents (unless you in fact are applying for prelim and would like to know what the prelims ended up doing after their year). Otherwise it just muddies the water.
 
How common is it for residents to be fired? What are the most common reasons?
 
How common is it for residents to be fired? What are the most common reasons?

I think its uncommon. That said, it happened on occasion in my program to advanced categoricals.

Most common reason likely is gross negligence or incompetence.

Lying (a reason why one of ours was reportedly fired).

Low ABSITE scores (although technically not supposed to be used, reportedly are at a number of places).

Violation of signed contract (ie, if you agreed not to moonlight but were caught doing it).

And apparently, taking photographs of a patient's penis, if not relevant to the surgery being performed, and showing it to other people.

You should NOT get fired for:

technical skills (presumably you are safe, even if not talented)
drug and alcohol use (you need to be referred to a program)
knowledge base (programs should have a remediation policy)
obvious things like gender, ethnicity, religion, marital status, physical handicaps, pregnancy or illness

Most residents should not have to worry about being fired. BUT, your contract is year to year and it would not be unheard of for a program to refuse to offer a resident a contract for the following year. Personality differences are often a key element - ie, the abrasive resident that doesn't get along well with colleagues and allied health staff. These are usually cases where lots of "evidence" is compiled against the resident. "Evidence" that would go unnoticed with a popular or well-liked resident.

So if you find yourself in the former camp make sure all your charts are signed on time, dictations are done asap, that there aren't nursing and patient complaints about you, your ABSITE scores are decent, etc.
 
just curious...do you think that programs are truthful about this? if they've replaced the spot or promoted a prelim to take the spot, it's tough to find out on the interview.
 
just curious...do you think that programs are truthful about this? if they've replaced the spot or promoted a prelim to take the spot, it's tough to find out on the interview.


If it's a good program that has reasonable explanations why people left that doesn't reflect badly on the program - they'll tell you the truth.

If it's a caustic, malignant program ... they'll lie.

No one's going to tell you that residents leave because their program has problems...

As for how common firings are - at my institution, in the last 10 years 1 resident has been fired.
 
We've lost an average of one intern per year since I started residency. Most were let go because of incompetence. I just wish we were better at selecting residents. I think most programs would be completely honest with you about why residents have left. I remember this being a common question people asked when I was interviewing.
 
We've lost an average of one intern per year since I started residency. Most were let go because of incompetence. I just wish we were better at selecting residents.

Now I know where we're getting our residents from. It's from YOU!!!
 
Most common reason likely is gross negligence or incompetence.

Lying (a reason why one of ours was reportedly fired).

Hmmm... Two of ours came from you guys. 🙂 You'd think that if you were kicked outta one place for lying that another place, if it's head isn't in its ass half the time, wouldn't even consider hiring such a person.
 
Hmmm... Two of ours came from you guys. 🙂 You'd think that if you were kicked outta one place for lying that another place, if it's head isn't in its ass half the time, wouldn't even consider hiring such a person.

One was a prelim as I recall, so there really wasn't any firing, just not offering a contract as a categorical. But that still doesn't excuse your program for not calling to get the story on that particular resident. Suckers! :laugh:

The one fired for lying ended up somewhere else (e.g, not your program).

Not sure who else we graciously offered you! 😉
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
If you got one of our guys then they are still getting lost trying to get to the emergency room for traumas even after 6 months.
 
One was a prelim as I recall, so there really wasn't any firing, just not offering a contract as a categorical. But that still doesn't excuse your program for not calling to get the story on that particular resident. Suckers! :laugh:

Yeah... We're still paying for her ****ing **** mother****ing crap to this mother****ing day.

Thanks ***holes.

(Just testing out the censuring system... I voluntarily modified the ***holes since it doesn't seem to pick that one up.)

The one fired for lying ended up somewhere else (e.g, not your program).

Not sure who else we graciously offered you! 😉

Well the other one wasn't so bad. I kinda liked him. I'd known him for a few years before I started my residency here, so it was kinda cool to see him again.
 
If you got one of our guys then they are still getting lost trying to get to the emergency room for traumas even after 6 months.

😡 ****ing animals aren't they?
 
Top Bottom