Audiologists and optometrists

[Anubis84]

I'm sure some optometrists and OD students know that for the last several years now, audiologists, who were previously trained at the master's level, are now receiving the degree AuD (Doctor of Audiology). The reason, according to the American Audiology Association, and many audiologists, is that audiology is to the ear what optometry is to the eye, and since optometrists have clinical professional doctorates (OD), so should they.

What do you ODs think of that? Is the argument valid, or do you feel audiology is not to the ear what optometry is to the eye? Do you guys know any optometrists/audiologists?

Just curious what you ODs thought.

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[Tom_Stickel]

Anubis,

The argument itself seems a little simplistic. Each profession should justify its own clinical doctorate based on its training, independence, and scope of practice.

Through the years, Optometry, Dentistry, Podiatry, Psychology, and other allied health professions have established themselves as "doctors" by being primary care providers in their area of expertise. That is, patients are able to self-refer themselves to the provider because standards have been established showing that these providers are competent to diagnose a vast array of patient problems, treat the majority of these, and have the knowledge necessary to refer problems they are not qualified to deal with.

If audiology feels that their profession is qualified to be a true primary care profession, and there is a public demand not being filled by other professions that justifies their existence, then I don't see why they shouldn't have this certification.

I will say that it appears a four year Au.D. program has about 75 credit hours in it, which any O.D. student will tell you is somewhat less than half the credit hours in a four year O.D. program. Could it be that the schools want to milk extra money out of their students by making a three year program into a four year one?

Tom Stickel
Indiana U. 2001

 

[Anubis84]

I was thinking the same thing, Dr. Stickel. Do you happen to know the history of the OD degree? When did optometrists adopt that designation? What was it like in the US before the OD was the common degree? I know in the UK and Australia, optometrists get a Bachelor of Optometry and do not get called "doctor".

 

[50960]

For what it is worth, psychologists have always been independent of a need for referral. I do think forcing standards to a doctor level when there is no clinical demand for it, and where practitioners are referred to as a necessity by MDs, is silly. We have several audiologists at the hospital I worked at for the last 5 years. As soon as one of them got the AuD, she started a war with the local ENT about ceruminosis (AKA ear wax) that is still going today. The title doctor carries alot of weight and respect. I can see why they would want it, but I do not see why it should be. FYI, in the UK even "doctors" are not doctors by education; it is more a formal title like OBE etc.. Also, in the UK education is so affordable many people have advanced degrees like PhD's etc, so the title "doctor" is pretty trite. I am one of those trite British PhD holders!! 😎

 

[JennyW]

I'm sure some optometrists and OD students know that for the last several years now, audiologists, who were previously trained at the master's level, are now receiving the degree AuD (Doctor of Audiology). The reason, according to the American Audiology Association, and many audiologists, is that audiology is to the ear what optometry is to the eye, and since optometrists have clinical professional doctorates (OD), so should they.

What do you ODs think of that? Is the argument valid, or do you feel audiology is not to the ear what optometry is to the eye? Do you guys know any optometrists/audiologists?

Just curious what you ODs thought.

Against my better judgement, I'll respond to this though I am suspcious of your motivation in posing this question in light of your factually incorrect and idiotic posts of the ophthalmology forum.

I do not know enough about the scope of practice, or the training of audiologists to comment on this.

For example, optometrists prescribe spectacles and contact lenses but also prescribe medications (both oral and topical, contrary to what you seem to think) for the treatment of various eye diseases. After the completion of an AuD degree, audioligsts will obviously prescribe hearing aids but will audiologists be treating minor ear infections with drops or orals? Will they be looking for signs of otic manifestations of systemic disease. I honestly don't know.

Jenny

 

[Anubis84]

For what it is worth, psychologists have always been independent of a need for referral. I do think forcing standards to a doctor level when there is no clinical demand for it, and where practitioners are referred to as a necessity by MDs, is silly. We have several audiologists at the hospital I worked at for the last 5 years. As soon as one of them got the AuD, she started a war with the local ENT about ceruminosis (AKA ear wax) that is still going today. The title doctor carries alot of weight and respect. I can see why they would want it, but I do not see why it should be. FYI, in the UK even "doctors" are not doctors by education; it is more a formal title like OBE etc.. Also, in the UK education is so affordable many people have advanced degrees like PhD's etc, so the title "doctor" is pretty trite. I am one of those trite British PhD holders!! 😎

yeah, in the UK, physicians only have an MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine/Surgery) degree, not an MD. Same with dentists, optometrists, pharmacists, lawyers, and veterinarians. Of those, I only think physicians get called doctor. I know in "All Creatures Great and Small", the British vet, James Herriot, was always Mr. Herriot, not Dr.

 

[aphistis]

Through the years, Optometry, Dentistry, Podiatry, Psychology, and other allied health professions have established themselves as "doctors" by being primary care providers in their area of expertise.

Dentistry isn't an allied health profession. Optometrists, podiatrists, audiologists, and psychologists(?) all have corresponding MD specialties that completely encompass & eclipse each of those professions' scopes of practice. There's no physician specialty for the majority of the diagnosis & treatment that goes on in a dental practice.

This mischaracterization crops up every so often, and I try to address it when I see it. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[r_salis]

Dentistry isn't an allied health profession. Optometrists, podiatrists, audiologists, and psychologists(?) all have corresponding MD specialties that completely encompass & eclipse each of those professions' scopes of practice. There's no physician specialty for the majority of the diagnosis & treatment that goes on in a dental practice.

This mischaracterization crops up every so often, and I try to address it when I see it. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

I didn't realize that was the definition of "allied health". Makes sense.

 

[chicoborja]

Anubis84, verly likely being the only audiology student on this thread I imagine I am the most qualified to answer your OP. Audiologists do not prescribe topical or systemic medications. Audiologists do look for otologic manifestations of systemic disease and make appropriate referrals; however, these referrals are more often retrocochlear in nature. In audiology, there are a variety of tests performed to detect auditory nerve and braintem pathology and audiologists are usually successful at detecting and referring when this is the case. There are not many non-neurologic pathologies (with the exception of vestibular disorders which I dont have time to elaborate on at the moment) that are frequently detected by audiologists. I can only think of one serious genetic syndrome (Jervell-Lange) that the audiologist might be the first one to spot but this condition is very rare. I am still a beginning student so I may be missing some. If you're talking about frequent occurrences, i.e. Otitis Media, Otosclerosis, Ossicular Fixation, etc. then these are all medical conditions can be detected with the diagnostic battery and referred to an MD or DO. The reason audiologists are transitioning to a doctorate has nothing to do with optometry and everything to do with technology. The evolution of hearing aid into the digital era has created a need for audiologists to have a much more thorough understanding of electronics, acoustics, etc. The move to the AuD is additionally a political move. It allows for more persuasive lobbying for direct access. Unlike OD and OMD, the AuD and ENT have far less overlap in scope of practice. Whereas the OMD may dispense glasses, the ENT rarely ever dispenses hearing aids in the US. Overseas, there are audiological physicians (England, Scandinavia) but not in the US. ENTs have about 2-3 hrs training in audiology for their entire residency. I'm not kidding, that's not an exaggeration. If you've read any of my other posts then u should know that I'm not super pro-audiology. I like my field have certainly have my doubts.

 

[Tom_Stickel]

Anubis,

As far as I know, optometry adopted the OD degree about 100 years ago for exactly the same reason as medicine: marketing.

As psisci points out, the only true historical "doctors" are the Ph.D.s, not the MDs, ODs, JDs, AuDs, etc. True, the MDs adopted it before any other of the medically related doctorates, but they still don't earn PhDs. That's part of the reason I find the "real doctor" debate rather amusing.

Medical doctors apparently decided that with their newer, more rigorous and standardized training, they needed a title that would make people trust them more. So they adopted the title of doctor, because people respected PhDs as learned and wise. And everyone else, from dentists to optometrists to chiropracters and now audiologists, has adopted the doctor title for the same reason.

As far as what happens in Australia with the B.Sc.Opt., you can earn a bachelor's in Optometry in America as well. Still won't get you called a Doctor though. Still have to get an OD for that.

Tom Stickel
Indiana U. 2001

 

[rpie]

The OD degree became the US standard around the 1960’s. Pre 1960’s, there were only 3-4 schools (Private) that awarded the Doctor of Optometry degree. Others, mostly University affiliates awarded the Masters of Optometry or MOpt. . Going back to the 1800’s Northern Illinois College of Optometry, founded in 1871, merged with Monroe College of Optometry to form ICO, and New England College of Opt. 1894 awarded the degree of Opt. D. Which was shortened to OD.

In 1904, the Los Angeles Medical School of Ophthalmology and Optometry was chartered. Degree awarded was either a Doctor of Optometry, for a 6-month term $75.00 or a Doctor of Ophthalmology for an 8-month term $100.00. The Los Angeles Medical school of Ophthalmology and Optometry later became SCCO.

A bit of trivia, which may or may not be true. According to some “old timers”, when Columbia University had a school of Optometry, a movement in the 1940’s by the students was the catalyst that got all University affiliated Optometry schools to go to a 4 year, graduate OD degree.

Optometry like Medicine, Dentistry, etc. fills a need. This need is reflected by the number of state supported Optometry schools, most which was founded by a legislative act.

 

[jchod]

Dentistry isn't an allied health profession. Optometrists, podiatrists, audiologists, and psychologists(?) all have corresponding MD specialties that completely encompass & eclipse each of those professions' scopes of practice. There's no physician specialty for the majority of the diagnosis & treatment that goes on in a dental practice.

This mischaracterization crops up every so often, and I try to address it when I see it. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

1. opthalmology does NOT completely encompass and eclipse optometry or what an optometrist does.

2. oral surgeons do provide (in an allied manner) a number of procedures also provided by general dentists.

 

[chicoborja]

Any PCO first year OD students here? I heard the AuD and OD students were supposed to have some overlap in the more general anatomy/biology courses in the first or 2nd year but i didnt know whether that was actually true.

 

[Tom_Stickel]

Aphistis,

I'm a little confused by your inclusion category of allied health professions. I generally used it to mean any doctor not trained as a DO or MD. To me, the difference isn't overlap with a DO or MD field, but the scope of your license. MDs and DOs have unlimited licenses, and no one else does. Your license is limited, the OD license is limited, the Psy.D. is limited, etc.

I don't mean to quarrel over semantics, but I'm curious as to where your definition of allied health comes from. I realize that another, more commonly accepted, definition of allied health professions is any assistant to any doctor, i.e. radiology tech, dental hygienist, etc. But nowhere in either definition is your exclusion of dentistry justified. Please link to a source explaining your reasoning.

Interestingly, the AMA lists Dental Assistant, Dental Hygienist, and Dental Laboratory Technician as allied health fields. It seems difficult to have allied health care workers working for you in a non-allied healthcare field.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/3585.html

Tom Stickel
Indiana U. 2001

 

[Tx Guy]

1. opthalmology does NOT completely encompass and eclipse optometry or what an optometrist does.

2. oral surgeons do provide (in an allied manner) a number of procedures also provided by general dentists.

I ask this sincerely...in what ways does ophthalmology not completely encompass optometry (eclipse seems like a strong word)? I know on a day-to-day basis an OMD might not do what ODs do, but aren't they fully capable of it? Just looking for examples...

 

[ppa93]

Dentistry isn't an allied health profession. Optometrists, podiatrists, audiologists, and psychologists(?) all have corresponding MD specialties that completely encompass & eclipse each of those professions' scopes of practice. There's no physician specialty for the majority of the diagnosis & treatment that goes on in a dental practice.

This mischaracterization crops up every so often, and I try to address it when I see it. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

You know why? because no MD wants to become something like Dentists because it is very gross. Saliva EWWW. Thats why they get paid that well because they are doing something most people dont wanna do, just like plumpers etc.

 

[Ben Chudner]

1. opthalmology does NOT completely encompass and eclipse optometry or what an optometrist does.

2. oral surgeons do provide (in an allied manner) a number of procedures also provided by general dentists.

I believe he meant that the practice of Ophthalmology includes everything within the scope of Optometry plus additional abilities not included such as surgery. While I do not believe the majority of OMD's are as skilled as OD's when it comes to refraction and CL fitting, all OMD's are legally allowed to perform these tasks.

 

[jchod]

I believe he meant that the practice of Ophthalmology includes everything within the scope of Optometry plus additional abilities not included such as surgery. While I do not believe the majority of OMD's are as skilled as OD's when it comes to refraction and CL fitting, all OMD's are legally allowed to perform these tasks.

Okay, "legally" OMDs are allowed to do heart Sx. Get my point? I did my residency with OMDs and contact lenses are a great example, OMDs get no training in how to fit soft lenses, NONE. Forget RGPs or ,heaven forbid, keratoconus. Now that is being a bit stereotypical, I realize, but just because their legally allowed to do it does not mean they are "able". Then there are the off-shutes, the VT the low vision, these again are legally in the scope of OMDs, but then again so are lung transplants. . .

 

[aphistis]

1. opthalmology does NOT completely encompass and eclipse optometry or what an optometrist does.

What does optometry do that ophthalmology cannot? I've learned a lot about the two professions in these threads, but there's still plenty more I don't know. If procedures like this exist, what are they?

2. oral surgeons do provide (in an allied manner) a number of procedures also provided by general dentists.

...And as you may or may not know, oral surgeons are specialized dentists. Some of them are physicians too, but every oral & maxillofacial surgeon in the country has a DDS or DMD.

 

[aphistis]

You know why? because no MD wants to become something like Dentists because it is very gross. Saliva EWWW. Thats why they get paid that well because they are doing something most people dont wanna do, just like plumpers etc.

Oh, the humiliation. Be still, my withering professional self-image. 🙄

 

[aphistis]

Aphistis,

I'm a little confused by your inclusion category of allied health professions. I generally used it to mean any doctor not trained as a DO or MD. To me, the difference isn't overlap with a DO or MD field, but the scope of your license. MDs and DOs have unlimited licenses, and no one else does. Your license is limited, the OD license is limited, the Psy.D. is limited, etc.

I don't mean to quarrel over semantics, but I'm curious as to where your definition of allied health comes from. I realize that another, more commonly accepted, definition of allied health professions is any assistant to any doctor, i.e. radiology tech, dental hygienist, etc. But nowhere in either definition is your exclusion of dentistry justified. Please link to a source explaining your reasoning.

Interestingly, the AMA lists Dental Assistant, Dental Hygienist, and Dental Laboratory Technician as allied health fields. It seems difficult to have allied health care workers working for you in a non-allied healthcare field.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/3585.html

Tom Stickel
Indiana U. 2001

Fair enough. Just to be explicit, my definition of allied health professions is those whose scope of practice is entirely contained within that of another. To use dentistry as an example, there's nothing a dental assistant, hygienist, or lab tech does that the supervising dentist isn't licensed to.

(As a follow-up, just to pre-empt the inevitable follow-ups from enlightened undergrads comparing me to a plumber & who think saliva is the most abhorrent secretion a sick body can produce, that isn't to say I think them any less valuable.)

 

[aphistis]

I believe he meant that the practice of Ophthalmology includes everything within the scope of Optometry plus additional abilities not included such as surgery. While I do not believe the majority of OMD's are as skilled as OD's when it comes to refraction and CL fitting, all OMD's are legally allowed to perform these tasks.

This is correct. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Okay, "legally" OMDs are allowed to do heart Sx. Get my point? I did my residency with OMDs and contact lenses are a great example, OMDs get no training in how to fit soft lenses, NONE. Forget RGPs or ,heaven forbid, keratoconus. Now that is being a bit stereotypical, I realize, but just because their legally allowed to do it does not mean they are "able". Then there are the off-shutes, the VT the low vision, these again are legally in the scope of OMDs, but then again so are lung transplants. . .

Actually, you are incorrect. During my residency, the OMD residents rotated through the CL clinic and were trained to fit soft CL's (not to our level, I agree). Just because your program didn't have this training does not mean that no program has it. In fact one of my residency classmates works at another OMD residency program and is responsible for their CL training. I also know several corneal specialists (OMD's) that are more skilled at keratoconic fits than most OD's.

The point is that OMD offices can provide all of the services that OD offices provide (even without an employed OD). True, the refraction, LV training, and VT may be performed by a tech, and the CL fit by a licensed dispensing optician, but the patient would have access to this care without an OD.

I can't believe I am defending OMD practices.

 

[JennyW]

Dentistry isn't an allied health profession. Optometrists, podiatrists, audiologists, and psychologists(?) all have corresponding MD specialties that completely encompass & eclipse each of those professions' scopes of practice. There's no physician specialty for the majority of the diagnosis & treatment that goes on in a dental practice.

This mischaracterization crops up every so often, and I try to address it when I see it. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

The reason dentistry is brought up as a comparision to optometry is that dentral training and optometric training are the same length.

Many times, you will hear shrill rhetoric from the MD camp claiming that traditional allopathic medical education and residency is the only acceptable path to competent surgical training.

I am not claiming in any way that current optometric training allows for adequate performance of surgical procedures. We are just pointing out that there are other groups who do perform invasive surgical procedures with great skill and at great benefit to the public who have not gone to allopathic medical school.

Jenny

 

[aphistis]

The reason dentistry is brought up as a comparision to optometry is that dentral training and optometric training are the same length.

Many times, you will hear shrill rhetoric from the MD camp claiming that traditional allopathic medical education and residency is the only acceptable path to competent surgical training.

I am not claiming in any way that current optometric training allows for adequate performance of surgical procedures. We are just pointing out that there are other groups who do perform invasive surgical procedures with great skill and at great benefit to the public who have not gone to allopathic medical school.

Jenny

Right, right, I agree on all points. I just wanted to point out this one notable difference that sets dentistry apart from other non-physician health professions.

I really had no intention of hijacking this thread, I promise. Wasn't somebody saying something about audiologists & optometrists a little while ago? 😉

 

[jchod]

What does optometry do that ophthalmology cannot? I've learned a lot about the two professions in these threads, but there's still plenty more I don't know. If procedures like this exist, what are they?

See my last post


...And as you may or may not know, oral surgeons are specialized dentists. Some of them are physicians too, but every oral & maxillofacial surgeon in the country has a DDS or DMD.

Ah ha, but those who are MDs are unrestricted in their and can practice to whtever extent they feel comfortable, and can "eclipse" what a general dentist does. You will learn this as your education continues.

 

[ODtobe]

The AuD students at PCO (there are 8 in the first year which is the biggest AuD class PCO has ever had) have some of their classes with the OD students. First semester we had Anatomy together, as well as Intro to Health Care Systems. This semester I believe they are in our Neuroscience/Neuropharm/Neuropath classes. As far as basic sciences, they take their classes separately, and although they are similar, they are much less extensive. Additionally, the admissions process is much less competitive for the AuD program.

 

[aphistis]

Ah ha, but those who are MDs are unrestricted in their and can practice to whtever extent they feel comfortable, and can "eclipse" what a general dentist does. You will learn this as your education continues.

Show me an MD who renders dental treatment beyond abscess I&D, palliative medications, and maybe regional block anesthesia, and I'll show you a physician who's about to have a very bad day in malpractice court.

 

[chicoborja]

The AuD students at PCO (there are 8 in the first year which is the biggest AuD class PCO has ever had) have some of their classes with the OD students. First semester we had Anatomy together, as well as Intro to Health Care Systems. This semester I believe they are in our Neuroscience/Neuropharm/Neuropath classes. As far as basic sciences, they take their classes separately, and although they are similar, they are much less extensive. Additionally, the admissions process is much less competitive for the AuD program.

Your response doesnt surprise me as far as their basic science courses being far less extensive. I find it diappointing that they are not pushed harder but maybe the program's rigor (in general, not just PCO) will increase over time. How do you think the AuD students fair in the aforementioned courses that they attend concurrently with the OD students?

 

[Tom_Stickel]

Right, right, I agree on all points. I just wanted to point out this one notable difference that sets dentistry apart from other non-physician health professions.

I really had no intention of hijacking this thread, I promise. Wasn't somebody saying something about audiologists & optometrists a little while ago? 😉

Aphistis,

I agree that this is a difference that sets dentistry apart. But to be honest, who cares about the semantics? Your posting on this thread makes it seem as if you have an agenda. Does dentistry as a whole use this (mis)characterization, or is it your own personal agenda to make you feel more special about your profession?

As I asked before, I'd appreciate a link to an outside source supporting your stance, or else I'd politely ask you not to hijack optometry threads with extraneous comments about dentistry. If your comments had anything to do with audiology and the actual thread, I'd be more sympathetic.

As for your statement as to why dentistry isn't an allied health profession, I'm sorry, but I don't consider "because I said so" a particulary trenchant argument. I'd just like to see any third party definition that says an allied health profession is one that is encompassed by a medical specialty.

Also, please cite specific examples of MDs who have changed mode of practice to general dentistry and been successfully sued for malpractice. Or is this an assumption that you're making?

Don't mean anything personal, but I'd appreciate your reply to contain links I could use to educate myself on these issues as opposed to personal opinions.

Tom Stickel, OD
Indiana U. 2001

 

[sco1styear]

You know why? because no MD wants to become something like Dentists because it is very gross. Saliva EWWW. Thats why they get paid that well because they are doing something most people dont wanna do, just like plumpers etc.

Sorry to venture off into rather pointless remarks...but...
No offense to other PCO students but does PCO require interviews or essays or ANYTHING that would make them think twice about accepting someone with an apparent below average intellect? Just curious...I know one person does not adequately represent an entire program.

Also, I was always under the impression that one of the major similarities between optometry and dentistry was that we tended to come from other specialties. For example, optometry tended to emerge from jewelers and I believe dentistry from blacksmiths. As said earlier, they came about because of a need from the public.

 

[rpie]

For example, optometry tended to emerge from jewelers and I believe dentistry from blacksmiths. As said earlier, they came about because of a need from the public.[/QUOTE]


Dentists/Blacksmiths?? Really?? I'm curious ??? Can you elaborate how this came about, because I was under the impression that Dentistry emerged from the barbershops in the early 1800’s. “A shave and a hair cut for 6 bits and tooth pulling for 8 bits.” What ever a bit is…

 

[sco1styear]

I wish I could elaborate, but I do not know enough about the subject. You are right though, they did also emerge from barbers as well.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Dentists/Blacksmiths?? Really?? I'm curious ??? Can you elaborate how this came about, because I was under the impression that Dentistry emerged from the barbershops in the early 1800’s. “A shave and a hair cut for 6 bits and tooth pulling for 8 bits.” What ever a bit is…

Bit = 12.5 cents

 

[aphistis]

Aphistis,

I agree that this is a difference that sets dentistry apart. But to be honest, who cares about the semantics? Your posting on this thread makes it seem as if you have an agenda. Does dentistry as a whole use this (mis)characterization, or is it your own personal agenda to make you feel more special about your profession?

As I asked before, I'd appreciate a link to an outside source supporting your stance, or else I'd politely ask you not to hijack optometry threads with extraneous comments about dentistry. If your comments had anything to do with audiology and the actual thread, I'd be more sympathetic.

As for your statement as to why dentistry isn't an allied health profession, I'm sorry, but I don't consider "because I said so" a particulary trenchant argument. I'd just like to see any third party definition that says an allied health profession is one that is encompassed by a medical specialty.

Also, please cite specific examples of MDs who have changed mode of practice to general dentistry and been successfully sued for malpractice. Or is this an assumption that you're making?

Don't mean anything personal, but I'd appreciate your reply to contain links I could use to educate myself on these issues as opposed to personal opinions.

Tom Stickel, OD
Indiana U. 2001

Again, no problem.

(5) The term "allied health professionals" means a health
professional (other than a registered nurse or physician
assistant) -
(A) who has received a certificate, an associate's degree, a
bachelor's degree, a master's degree, a doctoral degree, or
postbaccalaureate training, in a science relating to health
care;

(B) who shares in the responsibility for the delivery of
health care services or related services, including -
(i) services relating to the identification, evaluation,
and prevention of disease and disorders;
(ii) dietary and nutrition services;
(iii) health promotion services;
(iv) rehabilitation services; or
(v) health systems management services; and

(C) who has not received a degree of doctor of medicine, a
degree of doctor of osteopathy, a degree of doctor of dentistry
or an equivalent degree, a degree of doctor of veterinary
medicine or an equivalent degree, a degree of doctor of
optometry or an equivalent degree, a degree of doctor of
podiatric medicine or an equivalent degree, a degree of
bachelor of science in pharmacy or an equivalent degree, a
degree of doctor of pharmacy or an equivalent degree, a
graduate degree in public health or an equivalent degree, a
degree of doctor of chiropractic or an equivalent degree, a
graduate degree in health administration or an equivalent
degree, a doctoral degree in clinical psychology or an
equivalent degree, or a degree in social work or an equivalent
degree or a degree in counseling or an equivalent degree.

So I guess you guys don't count either, according to Uncle Sam. I stand corrected, but my original point simply stands. 😉

As for the hypothetical physicians practicing dentistry, you know what standard-of-care means. No non-OMS physician could defend an attempt at definitive dental treatment any more than I could justify diagnosing a patient's refractive error, and if you disagree I'm very curious to hear on what grounds you think it could be done.

I've mentioned this before, but if the presence of people like me on this board is irritating, thank the folks who keep drawing dentistry into the discussions over optometry's proper scope of practice. My agenda here is simply to correct misinformation when it appears, and one factual correction, with an explicit "we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread" suffixed, isn't exactly a spirited attempt at the hijacking you accuse me of.

I have no problem limiting my posts on the OD board to threads where dentistry is incorporated into the discussion. I only ask that if dents are asked to stay out of conversations here, that we be left out of them as well.

 

[jchod]

Aphistis,

I agree that this is a difference that sets dentistry apart. But to be honest, who cares about the semantics? Your posting on this thread makes it seem as if you have an agenda. Does dentistry as a whole use this (mis)characterization, or is it your own personal agenda to make you feel more special about your profession?

As I asked before, I'd appreciate a link to an outside source supporting your stance, or else I'd politely ask you not to hijack optometry threads with extraneous comments about dentistry. If your comments had anything to do with audiology and the actual thread, I'd be more sympathetic.

As for your statement as to why dentistry isn't an allied health profession, I'm sorry, but I don't consider "because I said so" a particulary trenchant argument. I'd just like to see any third party definition that says an allied health profession is one that is encompassed by a medical specialty.

Also, please cite specific examples of MDs who have changed mode of practice to general dentistry and been successfully sued for malpractice. Or is this an assumption that you're making?

Don't mean anything personal, but I'd appreciate your reply to contain links I could use to educate myself on these issues as opposed to personal opinions.

Tom Stickel, OD
Indiana U. 2001

YES!! THANK YOU!!!!!
I feel the same Mr. DS2.75364652356!!!

 

[ODtobe]

Yeah obviously we have to write an application essay, and have an interview before we are accepted. I am usually very impressed with the intelligence of my classmates.... so your guess is as good as mine as to the above.

Sorry to venture off into rather pointless remarks...but...
No offense to other PCO students but does PCO require interviews or essays or ANYTHING that would make them think twice about accepting someone with an apparent below average intellect? Just curious...I know one person does not adequately represent an entire program.

Also, I was always under the impression that one of the major similarities between optometry and dentistry was that we tended to come from other specialties. For example, optometry tended to emerge from jewelers and I believe dentistry from blacksmiths. As said earlier, they came about because of a need from the public.

 

[shellabella80]

Any PCO first year OD students here? I heard the AuD and OD students were supposed to have some overlap in the more general anatomy/biology courses in the first or 2nd year but i didnt know whether that was actually true.

Hi chicoborja,

I am a first year student in the Au.D. program at PCO. finishing up exams(two left, yipee!) To clarify, the audiology students do take basic sciences, physiology,anatomy,histology,neurosciences and pharmacology like the optometry students but our version is different because we don't require the depth of knowledge needed for the eye and its systemic conditions etc. PCO is one of the few Au.D. colleges in the US to have a biomedical approach to Audiology to broaden its scope of knowledge for future practitioners. I really like the program; I am actually from Toronto! So coming here was worth the distance to be apart of a rapidly expanding health profession.
I think we need to start an Audiology forum here🙂

 

[OzDDS]

yeah, in the UK, physicians only have an MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine/Surgery) degree, not an MD. Same with dentists, optometrists, pharmacists, lawyers, and veterinarians. Of those, I only think physicians get called doctor. I know in "All Creatures Great and Small", the British vet, James Herriot, was always Mr. Herriot, not Dr.

Only..? it is the same thing! the degrees MD is equivilent = to MBBS. that being said.. all surgeons are called Mr. in the UK regardess surgical qualification they have (dental, vet, med).

 

[Anubis84]

Only..? it is the same thing! the degrees MD is equivilent = to MBBS. that being said.. all surgeons are called Mr. in the UK regardess surgical qualification they have (dental, vet, med).

Yeah, ONLY. An undergrad degree is hardly a doctorate. It irks me that MBBS holders can come over here to the US and hold themselves out as "doctors", when they have an undergraduate degree. If you earn a bachelor's degree, then you get no title. If you earn a doctorate, in any field, you get a title. It's that simple. BTW, in Australia, they don't have DDS degrees; they have BDS degrees. So, if you're an Aussie dentist, you really have no right using a doctoral title. A JD in the US has more right to be "doctor" than you.

 

[OzDDS]

Yeah, ONLY. An undergrad degree is hardly a doctorate. It irks me that MBBS holders can come over here to the US and hold themselves out as "doctors", when they have an undergraduate degree. If you earn a bachelor's degree, then you get no title. If you earn a doctorate, in any field, you get a title. It's that simple. BTW, in Australia, they don't have DDS degrees; they have BDS degrees. So, if you're an Aussie dentist, you really have no right using a doctoral title. A JD in the US has more right to be "doctor" than you.

haha..

Are you for real? or is this a troll post?

for one.. Technically it's not a doctorate in the US/Canada either, It is an undergraduate professional degree. If you graduate from medical school in the UK (London, Oxford, Cambridge, etc) you recieve a "bachelor of Medicine" degree. But it is the same thing as the US-MD degree and upon taking your licensure exams here, you only put "MD" on your coat so the US layperson understands.
(Similarly the UK-BDS/BDent is the exact same thing as the US-DDS/DMD)

The first medical degrees to be given out in the US were actually also "Bachelor of Med" at Penn (America's first medical school) "that was founded by UK trained docs". fyi


actually..many of the UK dental students have previous degrees before starting dental school. conversly, there are actually quite a few students in the US who get accepted to dental school here who do Not have a previous degree. It's actually not a requirement.

If the US states that they are "legal equivilents" of each other. Which it does! ie.
MD = MBBS

That means one of two things:

1) Says that another countries bachelor degree is to the level of a doctorate in the US.

or

2) Says that a Doctorate in the US is no greater level than a bachelors.




I'd have to say that the better definition would be #2.
.. for one because this is the first degree in that field that is offered. ie. an MD does not build on prior Medical knowledge and training (a previous bachelors in bio does not count as this is technically a different field)


Just because you complete a prior degree before entering medicine.. even if it is required.. that does not make it a doctorate level qualification in that field of study.

The British system (upon which the US education system is founded btw) still keeps to the true definition and tradition of education. and apperantly has chosen (rightfully so) to keep it's honor and history rather than succumbing to money and has successfully kept it's political pressure groups from misinterperting and changing it's foundation. 👍

UK US
MBBS = MD
BDS = DDS
LLB = JD

The united states recognises british degrees such as Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Dentistry, and Bachelor of Laws ... all as equal to MD, DDS, and JD in the US. these are all simply undergraduate professional degrees.. all equivilent basic 1st degrees in their respective fields. None are true "doctorates" such as a PhD or DSc.

There are 6-year MD programs in the US for students right out of high school in the United states! McMaster university in Canada has an MD program that is only 3 years! The Universities in the the UK and Australia also have 4 year graduate-entry programs! The University of Pacific in SanFrancisco has a 5-year program for students out of high school that allows them to earn a DDS and only a DDS.. without a Bachelors degree in 5 years! AND this is an American ADA program!

Medical and Dental school degrees are still only undergraduate professional degrees.. not doctorates. No matter how or where you obtain them.

 

[jefguth]

Thankyou OzDDS for so accurately clearing the confusion around here. I think many of the professional schools in the states don't help with the confusion very much either, they are forever telling their students that they are in a "graduate" program when in fact they are merely pursuing an "undergraduate professional" degree Simply because a few schools require a BSc/BA for admission does not mean it's a graduate degree.

I think I should also point out that holding a doctorate does not necessarily qualify one for the salutation of "doctor." Often legislative requirements must be met and some juristictions resrict its use to only certain liscenced professions. For example, podiatrist (DPM) in Ontario are not permited to amend their name with "Dr." or use the title in their practice. In fact it wasn't until the 1970's the Optometrists gained this privilege.

 

[aphistis]

Yeah, ONLY. An undergrad degree is hardly a doctorate. It irks me that MBBS holders can come over here to the US and hold themselves out as "doctors", when they have an undergraduate degree. If you earn a bachelor's degree, then you get no title. If you earn a doctorate, in any field, you get a title. It's that simple. BTW, in Australia, they don't have DDS degrees; they have BDS degrees. So, if you're an Aussie dentist, you really have no right using a doctoral title. A JD in the US has more right to be "doctor" than you.

Nice post, boss. No wonder you're in timeout. 😉

 

[aphistis]

haha..

Are you for real? or is this a troll post?

for one.. Technically it's not a doctorate in the US/Canada either, It is an undergraduate professional degree. If you graduate from medical school in the UK (London, Oxford, Cambridge, etc) you recieve a "bachelor of Medicine" degree. But it is the same thing as the US-MD degree and upon taking your licensure exams here, you only put "MD" on your coat so the US layperson understands.
(Similarly the UK-BDS/BDent is the exact same thing as the US-DDS/DMD)

The first medical degrees to be given out in the US were actually also "Bachelor of Med" at Penn (America's first medical school) "that was founded by UK trained docs". fyi


actually..many of the UK dental students have previous degrees before starting dental school. conversly, there are actually quite a few students in the US who get accepted to dental school here who do Not have a previous degree. It's actually not a requirement.

If the US states that they are "legal equivilents" of each other. Which it does! ie.
MD = MBBS

That means one of two things:

1) Says that another countries bachelor degree is to the level of a doctorate in the US.

or

2) Says that a Doctorate in the US is no greater level than a bachelors.




I'd have to say that the better definition would be #2.
.. for one because this is the first degree in that field that is offered. ie. an MD does not build on prior Medical knowledge and training (a previous bachelors in bio does not count as this is technically a different field)


Just because you complete a prior degree before entering medicine.. even if it is required.. that does not make it a doctorate level qualification in that field of study.

The British system (upon which the US education system is founded btw) still keeps to the true definition and tradition of education. and apperantly has chosen (rightfully so) to keep it's honor and history rather than succumbing to money and has successfully kept it's political pressure groups from misinterperting and changing it's foundation. 👍

UK US
MBBS = MD
BDS = DDS
LLB = JD

The united states recognises british degrees such as Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Dentistry, and Bachelor of Laws ... all as equal to MD, DDS, and JD in the US. these are all simply undergraduate professional degrees.. all equivilent basic 1st degrees in their respective fields. None are true "doctorates" such as a PhD or DSc.

There are 6-year MD programs in the US for students right out of high school in the United states! McMaster university in Canada has an MD program that is only 3 years! The Universities in the the UK and Australia also have 4 year graduate-entry programs! The University of Pacific in SanFrancisco has a 5-year program for students out of high school that allows them to earn a DDS and only a DDS.. without a Bachelors degree in 5 years! AND this is an American ADA program!

Medical and Dental school degrees are still only undergraduate professional degrees.. not doctorates. No matter how or where you obtain them.

Great post. 👍

 

[OzDDS]

So, if you're an Aussie dentist, you really have no right using a doctoral title. A JD in the US has more right to be "doctor" than you.

Not yet. But maybe hopefully someday I will be! 😉 I'm actually American. I'm graduating this year from college and applying to dental school. I am applying to UCLA, USC, Sydney, Washington Health sciences, and maybe Hawaii. 😀


Good luck with your own future goals! 👍 If you want to be successful, I might suggest that you do a bit of research and show a bit more tact during interviews than you've show in this forum.

all the best.