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Autistic girl displays profound intelligence
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My goddamn girlfriend is cutting onions in the apartment again.
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I remember looking into this story some time ago and if not entirely false the claims were at least absurdly exaggerated. I read an article posted by a someone in the field of child development that explained very clearly why this is entirely impossible... just can't find it now. :/ I'm sure someone else will post it, but for the time being rest assured this is just soppy BS.
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Last edited:
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Wow. This should be re-titled. Anybody can display intelligence. But I've never seen someone with such heart, determination, and self awareness as this young girl. She is incredible and intelligence is the least of the many profound gifts she has.
Thanks for sharing this!
Thanks for sharing this!
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From the Reddit comments:
"As a pediatric neuropsychologist, I can promise you that if this were anywhere near true, it would indeed be earth-shattering. It would entirely revolutionize our understanding of (a) autism, (b) mental ******ation, (c) how language develops, and (d) how children learn to write and spell.
Children who are profoundly autistic like this girl are can sometimes be taught, eventually, to use a communication system (usually pictures) to get their wants met, but that is not what they show this youngster doing. For example, you'll notice that she doesn't communicate her wants that way at all -- not once did we see her type out "Just give me the damn food and stop making me type" or something similar. Unfortunately, children with profound autism cannot be taught to communicate a rich inner monologue full of observations about things they've never experienced (e.g., what it would be like to go to school with normal kids who aren't mildly alarmed by her behavior), metaphors ("ants crawling" on her arms), and figures of speech (e.g., "it's not like there's an off switch").
The reason that children with profound autism can't do these things is because of what autism does to the brain. Autism appears to be associated with too much gray matter, which makes every new piece of information appear discrete, like it is unrelated to every other piece of information. For that reason, individuals with autism have trouble discovering general principles that tie discrete bits of information together, which is a necessary skill for learning language (e.g., you have to learn the general "rules" of syllabification, sequencing, and grammar through exposure).
They also have trouble understanding where one bit of information stops, and another starts, which causes they to 'chunk' together things that don't go together, or have trouble breaking a large chunk down into the parts that make it up. Here, for example, is a very recent study on computer-analysis of infants with autism showing that they can be reliably differentiated from infants without autism and infants with language delays based on this difficulty effectively understanding where to break language into its component syllables.
As a result of these difficulties, children who are profoundly autistic may never learn to speak at all, while children who are less autistic still demonstrate significant problems correctly 'chunking' language bits together (for instance, they often display echolalia, meaning that they repeat whole sentences or scenes from movies verbatim, because they learned it all as one single unit of information). They also have trouble understanding language rules such as how words change depending on point-of-view of the speaker (e.g., they refer to themselves as he/she or by their first name, or use 'you' instead of 'I'). By definition, autism also includes trouble understanding language pragmatics (e.g., metaphors and figures of speech), because pragmatic language requires seeing the connections between different types of information, such as the literal meaning and abstract/contextual meaning or a sentence.
Autistic children also have difficulty learning to write, for all the reasons listed above, but also due to the phonetics of spelling -- learning how to spell also requires seeing the general 'rules' that govern phonics, as well as breaking words down into their component sounds. Even when children with autism do learn speak and write, one of the cardinal features of autism is trouble understanding Theory of Mind, or being able to make connections and use context to guess what others are thinking. For example, saying something like "Don't judge me until you know me" would be extremely difficult for a person with profound autism, since it requires theory of mind to know that other people are evaluating you differently than you evaluate yourself.
I have absolutely no problem with the idea that a person with mild to moderate autism can learn to type, after she learns to speak and then spell (see Temple Grandin, as others have noted, along with thousands of other autistic individuals), which is the same order in which neurotypical children learn to do these things.
But the idea that a person with profound autism could overcome how her brain works -- but just while typing, not while speaking -- all at once? That she could, without training in any of these areas (remember, she just ran to the computer and typed "HURT" and "HELP") master:
Syllabification,
Word order and sequencing
Rules of grammar
Phonetic rules
Correspondance between sounds and letters
Correspondance between the capital letters on a QWERTY keyboard and the lowercase letters that type on screen, and understanding how a generative typing software program works (one that fills in the rest of the word after you type the first few letters)
Expressive vocabulary
Correct pronoun usage
Point-of-view
Non-echolalic speech
Figures of speech and metaphors
Theory of mind, etc
(Not to mention her mental ******ation)?
And only do so to communicate things like "what [an adult who is not autistic might think] it is like to have autism" and not really be able to do so when the camera is present?
Unfortunately, the likelihood of this is so terribly, vanishingly small that I am fully comfortable saying that it is impossible.
We may all wish it were true, but it isn't. And putting stories like this out there only clouds our understanding of what autism is and how to treat it (which hopefully will eventually lead us to how to prevent or cure it)."
http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/ctm81/autistic_girl_expresses_profound_intelligence/
I'm also very skeptical :/
"As a pediatric neuropsychologist, I can promise you that if this were anywhere near true, it would indeed be earth-shattering. It would entirely revolutionize our understanding of (a) autism, (b) mental ******ation, (c) how language develops, and (d) how children learn to write and spell.
Children who are profoundly autistic like this girl are can sometimes be taught, eventually, to use a communication system (usually pictures) to get their wants met, but that is not what they show this youngster doing. For example, you'll notice that she doesn't communicate her wants that way at all -- not once did we see her type out "Just give me the damn food and stop making me type" or something similar. Unfortunately, children with profound autism cannot be taught to communicate a rich inner monologue full of observations about things they've never experienced (e.g., what it would be like to go to school with normal kids who aren't mildly alarmed by her behavior), metaphors ("ants crawling" on her arms), and figures of speech (e.g., "it's not like there's an off switch").
The reason that children with profound autism can't do these things is because of what autism does to the brain. Autism appears to be associated with too much gray matter, which makes every new piece of information appear discrete, like it is unrelated to every other piece of information. For that reason, individuals with autism have trouble discovering general principles that tie discrete bits of information together, which is a necessary skill for learning language (e.g., you have to learn the general "rules" of syllabification, sequencing, and grammar through exposure).
They also have trouble understanding where one bit of information stops, and another starts, which causes they to 'chunk' together things that don't go together, or have trouble breaking a large chunk down into the parts that make it up. Here, for example, is a very recent study on computer-analysis of infants with autism showing that they can be reliably differentiated from infants without autism and infants with language delays based on this difficulty effectively understanding where to break language into its component syllables.
As a result of these difficulties, children who are profoundly autistic may never learn to speak at all, while children who are less autistic still demonstrate significant problems correctly 'chunking' language bits together (for instance, they often display echolalia, meaning that they repeat whole sentences or scenes from movies verbatim, because they learned it all as one single unit of information). They also have trouble understanding language rules such as how words change depending on point-of-view of the speaker (e.g., they refer to themselves as he/she or by their first name, or use 'you' instead of 'I'). By definition, autism also includes trouble understanding language pragmatics (e.g., metaphors and figures of speech), because pragmatic language requires seeing the connections between different types of information, such as the literal meaning and abstract/contextual meaning or a sentence.
Autistic children also have difficulty learning to write, for all the reasons listed above, but also due to the phonetics of spelling -- learning how to spell also requires seeing the general 'rules' that govern phonics, as well as breaking words down into their component sounds. Even when children with autism do learn speak and write, one of the cardinal features of autism is trouble understanding Theory of Mind, or being able to make connections and use context to guess what others are thinking. For example, saying something like "Don't judge me until you know me" would be extremely difficult for a person with profound autism, since it requires theory of mind to know that other people are evaluating you differently than you evaluate yourself.
I have absolutely no problem with the idea that a person with mild to moderate autism can learn to type, after she learns to speak and then spell (see Temple Grandin, as others have noted, along with thousands of other autistic individuals), which is the same order in which neurotypical children learn to do these things.
But the idea that a person with profound autism could overcome how her brain works -- but just while typing, not while speaking -- all at once? That she could, without training in any of these areas (remember, she just ran to the computer and typed "HURT" and "HELP") master:
Syllabification,
Word order and sequencing
Rules of grammar
Phonetic rules
Correspondance between sounds and letters
Correspondance between the capital letters on a QWERTY keyboard and the lowercase letters that type on screen, and understanding how a generative typing software program works (one that fills in the rest of the word after you type the first few letters)
Expressive vocabulary
Correct pronoun usage
Point-of-view
Non-echolalic speech
Figures of speech and metaphors
Theory of mind, etc
(Not to mention her mental ******ation)?
And only do so to communicate things like "what [an adult who is not autistic might think] it is like to have autism" and not really be able to do so when the camera is present?
Unfortunately, the likelihood of this is so terribly, vanishingly small that I am fully comfortable saying that it is impossible.
We may all wish it were true, but it isn't. And putting stories like this out there only clouds our understanding of what autism is and how to treat it (which hopefully will eventually lead us to how to prevent or cure it)."
http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/ctm81/autistic_girl_expresses_profound_intelligence/
I'm also very skeptical :/
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i'm too tired to type out my view related to this discussion, so here are a couple references worth browsing representing an alternate point of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnylM1hI2jc
(longer video, but please watch it in its entirety to get the point made)
http://www.dsq-sds.org/issue/view/43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnylM1hI2jc
(longer video, but please watch it in its entirety to get the point made)
http://www.dsq-sds.org/issue/view/43
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Temple Grandin has Aspergers, not autism. Though Asperger's is an autism spectrum disorder, it's extremely different in many ways. For example, individuals with Asperger's tend to be hyper-loquacious and fixate on certain topics of interest, i.e. animals. So comparing this girl to Temple Grandin is comparing apples to oranges.
That being said, it does not look like this girl has Autism to me. Her movements seem too uncontrolled, almost like severe Tourette's.
That being said, it does not look like this girl has Autism to me. Her movements seem too uncontrolled, almost like severe Tourette's.
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A guy in my class had Aspergers. He was 14, went to Cal Tech, and knew 4 language fluently.
Anyway, the reason I'm skeptical is because NO one followed this show through. If something like this was really happening, I'm sure every doctor/psychologist would be at the door. But for some reason it only showed up once on ABC...
That, and I think they're trying to sell a book written "by the girl"...so...
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Yeeeeaahhhhh...not buying it.
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I have a close friend who is autistic. When he was younger he was completely out of control and got kicked out of every school he went to. He blamed it on corn allergy, not acknowledging that he was severely autistic. Every time he had corn or corn syrup, he said he did horrible things. He was violent and had no regard for anybody.
Over the years, though, with therapy and medication, he has developed into such a fine human being, one of the kindest and most self-aware people I know. He is completely aware that he is "handicapped" as he says and that he is "special needs," as he also calls himself. He still acts out, constantly asking questions during speeches, etc., but he knows that he does it. He cannot control himself all the time, but he is in complete control of how he feels about himself.
When I ask him if he will ever get married, he says very maturely that the girls he likes are always his "superiors" (ie people in a therapeutic role etc) and that he knows they would never go for him. He says he cannot connect with the other "special needs" people he interacts with on any meaningful level. Also, he said he wouldn't marry a "special needs" person because then neither of them would be trusted to remind the other to take their meds. Basically, he said he would need someone who could take care of him and stimulate him intellectually.
My friend is constantly growing and developing in spectacular ways. He is in community college now and working through his struggles to receive passing grades. It is not his intelligence that impresses me. It is his true understanding of his condition and ability to describe it in detail. He said that he has a constant headache that has lasted his whole life. And when I play music it bothers him because he said it just sounds like noise; he does not understand it. Although, he used to make up long intricate songs to simple familiar tunes.
He is so human to the point that he is like a brother to me and we share a true emotional connection with equal contribution. He tries as hard as he can to adapt to his disability and he is succeeding. Sometimes, it pains me to see how doped up his meds can make him, but they have also probably been a great tool towards stabilizing his erratic behavior.
I agree that there is something overly sentimental about this ABC special. But I have also seen first hand an autistic person demonstrate perspective beyond their condition. It is as though the autism was simply a barrier to him. You can even see the frustration sometimes. I am interested to know if there is any followup or scoop on the true situation of Carly.
Over the years, though, with therapy and medication, he has developed into such a fine human being, one of the kindest and most self-aware people I know. He is completely aware that he is "handicapped" as he says and that he is "special needs," as he also calls himself. He still acts out, constantly asking questions during speeches, etc., but he knows that he does it. He cannot control himself all the time, but he is in complete control of how he feels about himself.
When I ask him if he will ever get married, he says very maturely that the girls he likes are always his "superiors" (ie people in a therapeutic role etc) and that he knows they would never go for him. He says he cannot connect with the other "special needs" people he interacts with on any meaningful level. Also, he said he wouldn't marry a "special needs" person because then neither of them would be trusted to remind the other to take their meds. Basically, he said he would need someone who could take care of him and stimulate him intellectually.
My friend is constantly growing and developing in spectacular ways. He is in community college now and working through his struggles to receive passing grades. It is not his intelligence that impresses me. It is his true understanding of his condition and ability to describe it in detail. He said that he has a constant headache that has lasted his whole life. And when I play music it bothers him because he said it just sounds like noise; he does not understand it. Although, he used to make up long intricate songs to simple familiar tunes.
He is so human to the point that he is like a brother to me and we share a true emotional connection with equal contribution. He tries as hard as he can to adapt to his disability and he is succeeding. Sometimes, it pains me to see how doped up his meds can make him, but they have also probably been a great tool towards stabilizing his erratic behavior.
I agree that there is something overly sentimental about this ABC special. But I have also seen first hand an autistic person demonstrate perspective beyond their condition. It is as though the autism was simply a barrier to him. You can even see the frustration sometimes. I am interested to know if there is any followup or scoop on the true situation of Carly.
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I didn't mean to offend by suggesting this girl doesn't have autism. I was operating under the assumption that she truly was typing these things, and if that is the case she possesses a level of self-reflection and understanding of others' thought processes that makes it hard for me to accept that she is indeed autistic.
My main issue with news pieces like these is that they suggest that by surrounding your child with expensive therapists you can effectively "cure" them of autism, or at least achieve an advanced level of communication. This is a slap in the face to families that work extremely hard with their autistic children and make little progress. It's also extremely discouraging to those who lack the financial means to provide such therapy for their children.
On a different note, your suggestion that this is "real" autism is absurd. Autism comes in many forms which may or may not include violent tendencies. My autistic cousin, for example, becomes extremely violent when agitated but for the most part is able to sit still with few obvious tics (other than the hand wringing and twisting you almost invariably find in autism.) Other autistic individuals are essentially catatonic.
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So what was her MCAT score?
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Not funny dude. Like, at all. WTF is wrong with you?
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Isn't this a pre-med forum?
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Hahahaha
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I was pretty skeptical about the authenticity of what was presented in the ABC special as well. Either the extent of her disability or the extent of her "progress" seemed to be very exaggerated and a bit too melodramatic/unrealistic.
I was curious enough to spend about 10 minutes scouring google with searches about her, both in google scholar and regular google search. Google scholar had nothing at all. It seems there has been very little follow-up by just about anybody. This to me adds even more suspicion, because I agree with what has been said about IF everything they presented was accurate, the scientific community would be making a much bigger to-do over her.
Her website http://carlysvoice.com/ seems to have been quite busy with updates through 2009, when the media sensation with this story hit. But since November 2009, it has been pretty much abandoned.
She does appear to be active with her twitter account, but nearly all of her posts maintain the same level of melodrama and over-the-topness much of the original ABC segment. I find it hard to believe she writes all of that herself without any "assistance" from others.
I'm not discrediting the fact that autistic individuals are able to learn to communicate through a variety of systems involving keyboards, whether it be typing, facilitated typing, or even just pointing to letters. I've seen examples of that. But the level of communication and fluency and grammatical correctness she displays seems unbelievable to me. Especially considering it just started one day out of nowhere. This is a child who has had no formal education in reading, writing, or even basic sentence structure, let alone the complexities of english spelling and use of idioms. I can easily imagine that someone else firsts "suggests" to her things to write, and after she tries they "edit" what she has written to make it grammatically correct as well as probably give it a liberal dosage of extra eloquence and prose, claiming it is an "interpretation" of what she means to say.
Either she is not as disabled as the video suggests, or she has a lot more help from her therapists/parents "communicating" than they portray.
I was curious enough to spend about 10 minutes scouring google with searches about her, both in google scholar and regular google search. Google scholar had nothing at all. It seems there has been very little follow-up by just about anybody. This to me adds even more suspicion, because I agree with what has been said about IF everything they presented was accurate, the scientific community would be making a much bigger to-do over her.
Her website http://carlysvoice.com/ seems to have been quite busy with updates through 2009, when the media sensation with this story hit. But since November 2009, it has been pretty much abandoned.
She does appear to be active with her twitter account, but nearly all of her posts maintain the same level of melodrama and over-the-topness much of the original ABC segment. I find it hard to believe she writes all of that herself without any "assistance" from others.
I'm not discrediting the fact that autistic individuals are able to learn to communicate through a variety of systems involving keyboards, whether it be typing, facilitated typing, or even just pointing to letters. I've seen examples of that. But the level of communication and fluency and grammatical correctness she displays seems unbelievable to me. Especially considering it just started one day out of nowhere. This is a child who has had no formal education in reading, writing, or even basic sentence structure, let alone the complexities of english spelling and use of idioms. I can easily imagine that someone else firsts "suggests" to her things to write, and after she tries they "edit" what she has written to make it grammatically correct as well as probably give it a liberal dosage of extra eloquence and prose, claiming it is an "interpretation" of what she means to say.
Either she is not as disabled as the video suggests, or she has a lot more help from her therapists/parents "communicating" than they portray.
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I thought it was, so the real question is what's wrong with you?
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Nothing is wrong with me. I'm not the one who made a joke at the expense of a mentally ******ed child.
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Aside from the fact that the authenticity of this girl's story has been seriously challenged, I have two things to say:
First of all, there is a huge difference between autism and mental ******ation. The point of that video is that while many autistics are ******ed, many are not. They are trying to raise awareness of that - far too many people instantly assume that anybody who can't control their hands and has strange outbursts must have an iq<80. Another example: a guy I knew had cerebral palsy or something and walked really funny, couldn't control his hands very well, and slurred his speech and had random bursts of yelling so it was hard to understand him. He worked really hard on controlling those things as much as possible and did a pretty good job. He was my calculus tutor during sophomore year and was much more intelligent than I.
Second, the joke you were so quick to shoot down wasn't about the girl but rather about A) the reason for this thread becoming so popular on a forum designed for advising pre-med students and B) the peculiarity of the SDN family as a whole, where everybody seems to have such a one-track mind focused on med school applications and are not able to think outside of that box. Other similar jokes could include someone complaining/posting something along the lines of "So now she'll just call herself some kind of URM and automatically get accepted so I won't be able to get in!"
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May I remind you that everybody on SDN gets their panties in a twist whenever someone uses the word "******" or "******ed" out of proper context. But I don't find a joke about/centered around/whatever a mentally handicapped (for Mr. Politically Correct over here) person funny and there's something wrong with me? I give up.
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It's ok I voted for Bush! I have nothing against retarted people.
Sincerely,
The majority of the united states (EC)
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The joke wasn't about her intelligence; it was a jab at the one-track mentality of SDN users.
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This video is older than the internet*.
*internet corresponds to a time of at least two weeks
*internet corresponds to a time of at least two weeks
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whoa whoa, let me see if i got this right, this would mean they are incapable of assuming just about anything right? wouldn't that make them the least ignorant people on this planet?
...just food for though.
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