AV fistula revision

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Noyac said:
Yes, your statements are correct for most pts. And I know you understand what I was getting at which was that dialysis pts are chronically anemic and it is difficult to pick a number at which you will transfuse all dialysis pts. Especailly since they can tolerate anemia.

Here's sort of a trick question:
What's wrong with a lab value of, Hb 7, Hct 24?


In a surgical patient, Hb 7 and Hct 24 are the values you start to think about tranfusion if they are experiencing blood loss or have underlying cardiac disease. Otherwise, don't do it. Of course, I'm still in school and could be way off. ;)

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What if I said the values were Hb 10, Hct 38?

Don't think too hard. Its a simple answer and you guys will probably laugh when I tell you.
 
Okay, I'll give it a shot ...

In regards to a Hb of 7 and a Hct of 24, or a Hb 10 and Hct of 38:

What's wrong with these numbers?

Well, allow me to explain this phenomenon in terms of a blood transfusion. On average, one unit of packed cells (350 cc's of 65% Hct blood) will increase the Hct of an average person by about 3% or one Hb unit (gm/dL). However, you might notice that if you send a CBC immediately after the transfusion, the crit has actually gone up by 5-7%. That's because the components of the freshly transfused blood haven't had a chance to equilibrate with the intravascular and extravascular compartments. Check the CBC a few hours later (assuming patient is stable and not actively bleeding), and the Hb will have in fact gone up by 1 unit and the Hct by 3%, (down from the 5 to 7% increase originally).

The reverse is also true. Take someone actively bleeding. We all know that if somebody is acutely bleeding and their Hct comes back at 42, it means that the blood loss has been so rapid that the intravascular volume hasn't been able to replenish itself by mobilizing fluid from extravascular stores (i.e. interstitium).

So, what's wrong with the numbers posted by Noyac? The Hb and Hct ratio is usually 1:3. If it's less (i.e. 1:4), then it means that there has been an acute and recent change in the quantity of red blood cells in the intravascular compartment, and the numbers have not had a chance to reflect that re-equilibration.
 
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TIVA said:
In regards to a Hb of 7 and a Hct of 24, or a Hb 10 and Hct of 38:
On average, one unit of packed cells (350 cc's of 65% Hct blood) will increase the Hct of an average person by about 3% or one Hb unit (gm/dL).

350 huh? My facility only gives you 250mls per PRBC.
 
TIVA said:
Okay, I'll give it a shot ...

In regards to a Hb of 7 and a Hct of 24, or a Hb 10 and Hct of 38:

What's wrong with these numbers?

Well, allow me to explain this phenomenon in terms of a blood transfusion. On average, one unit of packed cells (350 cc's of 65% Hct blood) will increase the Hct of an average person by about 3% or one Hb unit (gm/dL). However, you might notice that if you send a CBC immediately after the transfusion, the crit has actually gone up by 5-7%. That's because the components of the freshly transfused blood haven't had a chance to equilibrate with the intravascular and extravascular compartments. Check the CBC a few hours later (assuming patient is stable and not actively bleeding), and the Hb will have in fact gone up by 1 unit and the Hct by 3%, (down from the 5 to 7% increase originally).

The reverse is also true. Take someone actively bleeding. We all know that if somebody is acutely bleeding and their Hct comes back at 42, it means that the blood loss has been so rapid that the intravascular volume hasn't been able to replenish itself by mobilizing fluid from extravascular stores (i.e. interstitium).

So, what's wrong with the numbers posted by Noyac? The Hb and Hct ratio is usually 1:3. If it's less (i.e. 1:4), then it means that there has been an acute and recent change in the quantity of red blood cells in the intravascular compartment, and the numbers have not had a chance to reflect that re-equilibration.


Nice work TIVA. The ratio is 1:3. If it is different then it is a lab error. Repeat the lab.
 
Noyac said:
Nice work TIVA. The ratio is 1:3. If it is different then it is a lab error. Repeat the lab.
I don't think you can call it a lab error: Hct is the percentage of RBC in total blood and can be influenced by different factors: hydration status RBC size and as TIVA said the acuteness of the bleeding:
We once had a guy come in hypotensive shock for upper GI bleeding his Hb was 10g/dl before ressus after he got fluids his Hb has dropped to 4 :eek:
You definately need to reapet the test in the setting of acute bleeding
 
The_Sensei said:
Yeah......I don't think the 4 meq/L of K in LR is going to "drastically" elevate the serum K level. :rolleyes:


Agreed. And that was the whole point of my response.
 
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