Average for Step 1 increasing every year! What is a competitive score now a days?

[rodmichael82]

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When I looked at my score I was a little shocked that the average was 228. I just don't know how this correlates for us when we apply.

Back in the day when people had a > 230 you were considered competitive for most specialties except the big 3 of course (Plastics, Derm and ENT) but what is the new cut off now? The matching outcome stats i saw last were from NRMP from 2011!

I clearly understand there are multiple elements but I'm focusing on step 1 right now. Thanks for the input in advance guys.

 

[DermViser]

I think people are still going based off of Charting Outcomes of the Match from 2011. It's a vicious cycle. People see the avg score matched, gun to score better than that average, which then bumps up the average for that specialty. But yes the current average is 228.

 

[JJMrK]

IMO a 240 keeps all doors open, including derm and plastics, provided the applicant has everything else in line. Many programs in the competitive specialties likely see 250 as a routine score.

 

[DermViser]

IMO a 240 keeps all doors open, including derm and plastics, provided the applicant has everything else in line. Many programs in the competitive specialties likely see 250 as a routine score.

Agree. As an AMG, a 240 will not close any doors, but is not a golden ticket to anything. Depending on the specialty there are other things you have to check off. Your Step 1 score won't be holding you back.

 

[Serous Demilune]

When I looked at my score I was a little shocked that the average was 228. I just don't know how this correlates for us when we apply.

Back in the day when people had a > 230 you were considered competitive for most specialties except the big 3 of course (Plastics, Derm and ENT) but what is the new cut off now? The matching outcome stats i saw last were from NRMP from 2011!

Is it > 235? What about border line scores like a 239? Would doors to any specialty close with such a score?

I clearly understand there are multiple elements but I'm focusing on step 1 right now. Thanks for the input in advance guys.

It probably also depends on the kind of programs you apply to. The U of Arkansas might love your 239, UCSF not so much.

 

[DermViser]

It probably also depends on the kind of programs you apply to. The U of Arkansas might love your 239, UCSF not so much.

He can definitely do better than U of Arkansas with that score. UCSF can even ask for AOA of its applicants.

 

[GadRads]

He can definitely do better than U of Arkansas with that score. UCSF can even ask for AOA of its applicants.

We have been made to think that somehow you won't match unless you have a 260+, so I can understand why someone may undersell him/herself. A classmate of mine scored ~250 and was worried about matching into general surgery because the score was "low". We need to disabuse ourselves of this kind of thinking. Someone scoring a 260 might score a 240 given the "right" test. Step 1 is just useless.

 

[DermViser]

We have been made to think that somehow you won't match unless you have a 260+, so I can understand why someone may undersell him/herself. A classmate of mine scored ~250 and was worried about matching into general surgery because the score was "low". We need to disabuse ourselves of this kind of thinking. Someone scoring a 260 might score a 240 given the "right" test. Step 1 is just useless.

Yes, but this highly depends on the specialty in question. Yes, part of the problem is that it requires getting the right test that hits your strengths. That's part of the problem when you move the test onto computer and it can grab any questions.

 

[Serous Demilune]

We have been made to think that somehow you won't match unless you have a 260+, so I can understand why someone may undersell him/herself. A classmate of mine scored ~250 and was worried about matching into general surgery because the score was "low". We need to disabuse ourselves of this kind of thinking. Someone scoring a 260 might score a 240 given the "right" test. Step 1 is just useless.

I think deep down we all want a guarantee. We put in so much time, effort, and money into this, and we want to be absolutely sure we match into what we want in an area that will make us happy. Step 1 is a one-shot deal that can put us over the edge, instead of years of slogging through putting out research and getting good med school grades. People want to be able to rely on their step score to carry them rather than all that other stuff that requires even more effort.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

228 is kind of high ...What is the standard deviation? Is 240-245 a good score for neurosurgery or ortho? Can an AMG from a low tier school match into neurosurg/ortho?

 

[mcloaf]

Can an AMG from a low tier school match into neurosurg/ortho?

If this is a serious question you need to spend a lot more time reading these forums. And the answer is of course they can.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

@mcloaf ... That was a serious question... I am under no illusion that PDs will treat my 'bottom 20' school like they treat the 'top 20' for these competitive specialties...

 

[mcloaf]

@mcloaf ... That was a serious question... I am under no illusion that PDs will treat my 'bottom 20' school like they treat the 'top 20' for these competitive specialties...

It's a big leap to go from "going to a highly ranked school can be a boost to your application" to "if you go to a low ranked school you can't match into something competitive."

 

[MadRadLad]

Does going to a bottom ranked or not well known school hinder your options at top academic programs (assuming you have good Step scores, research, grades, etc)?

 

[Serous Demilune]

Does going to a bottom ranked or not well known school hinder your options at top academic programs (assuming you have good Step scores, research, grades, etc)?

Yes. Most of these programs have a Current Residents section on their websites. Take a look.

 

[MadRadLad]

Yes. Most of these programs have a Current Residents section on their websites. Take a look.

Yeah i've noticed, although it does seem to vary by specialty. Although I guess it's worth considering that the kind of people who got into top schools tend to have the motivation, drive and ability to do well anyway.

 

[tdram]

Does this mean that the aver

@mcloaf ... That was a serious question... I am under no illusion that PDs will treat my 'bottom 20' school like they treat the 'top 20' for these competitive specialties...

You can but it is harder to get in than it would be for a top 20 candidate. I know this as a student at a bottom 20 school. Fewer of our students manage to make it into competitive specialties than better ranked schools, despite having similar scores.

 

[rodmichael82]

Does this mean that the aver

You can but it is harder to get in than it would be for a top 20 candidate. I know this as a student at a bottom 20 school. Fewer of our students manage to make it into competitive specialties than better ranked schools, despite having similar scores.

Well top ranked schools have better research experiences, more reputable letter writers so I guess it would make sense? But I think it's the wrong attitude to tell yourself or others I can't do it because I'm from a lower tier school.

 

[tdram]

Well top ranked schools have better research experiences, more reputable letter writers so I guess it would make sense? But I think it's the wrong attitude to tell yourself or others I can't do it because I'm from a lower tier school.

Sure, that would definitely be the wrong attitude. I was just answering the question of whether it makes a difference, and it certainly does, but that not make it impossible, and assuming you couldn't do it would be a mistake.

 

[Greenberg702]

Does going to a bottom ranked or not well known school hinder your options at top academic programs (assuming you have good Step scores, research, grades, etc)?

You think a low tier school will hurt you here? http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/wilmer/education/residency/residents/

 

[DermViser]

You think a low tier school will hurt you here? http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/wilmer/education/residency/residents/

Going to a lower tier school won't hurt you even at Hopkins Ophtho. Hopkins Ophtho can afford to be pickier in what they want in their residents due to specialty and institution name.

 

[Greenberg702]

Going to a lower tier school won't hurt you even at Hopkins Ophtho. Hopkins Ophtho can afford to be pickier in what they want in their residents due to specialty and institution name.

I was just messing with him haha. Still, that's the most pedigreed list I've ever seen. There is literally 1 person who didn't attend a top 10 and she has 31 publications and spent 3 years researching there.

 

[DermViser]

I was just messing with him haha. Still, that's the most pedigreed list I've ever seen. There is literally 1 person who didn't attend a top 10 and she has 31 publications and spent 3 years researching there.

A lot of what people don't understand is that pedigree means as much as it is allowed to mean. Even Hopkins IM can recruit the pedigree that it wants - bc it's Hopkins (not bc it's IM). Some people thrive in the Hopkins IM culture and other absolutely abhor it.

Just bc a residency has a high pedigree doesn't mean that as a resident you want to actually work there. That's hard for medical students to see that bc they get so starry-eyed over name-brand prestige. It's the same ones who believe that medical school will make them happy. It won't.

 

[Greenberg702]

A lot of what people don't understand is that pedigree means as much as it is allowed to mean. Even Hopkins IM can recruit the pedigree that it wants - bc it's Hopkins (not bc it's IM). Some people thrive in the Hopkins IM culture and other absolutely abhor it.

Just bc a residency has a high pedigree doesn't mean that as a resident you want to actually work there. That's hard for medical students to see that bc they get so starry-eyed over name-brand prestige. It's the same ones who believe that medical school will make them happy. It won't.

I absolutely agree. I think what most people debate though is whether or not an elite school will help them get that residency pedigree assuming they already want it and know they will "thrive in its culture." They're talking about a situation in which they for sure decided that the name will make them happy. Whether or not they're overestimating the worth of the name (and I agree with you that people often do) is a different question.

 

[Greenberg702]

Going to a lower tier school won't hurt you even at Hopkins Ophtho. Hopkins Ophtho can afford to be pickier in what they want in their residents due to specialty and institution name.

That's what I always wondered about when reading these threads. If these institutions, like you said, can afford to be pickier due to their name and or specialty how come a lower tier school wouldn't hurt you? It seems that if they really can (and probably will) be picky with everything when picking candidates then the converse would be true. It's tough for pre meds and medical students lower down the chain to fully grasp this.

 

[DermViser]

That's what I always wondered about when reading these threads. If these institutions, like you said, can afford to be pickier due to their name and or specialty how come a lower tier school wouldn't hurt you? It seems that if they really can (and probably will) be picky with everything when picking candidates then the converse would be true. It's tough for pre meds and medical students lower down the chain to fully grasp this.

Just as medical students are choosing residency programs based on what they can do for them, residency programs are doing the same when it comes to choosing medical students. Just like med students go based off of name brand prestige, accolades, etc., residencies do the same thing when it comes to med students. Doesn't mean that tactic doesn't fall thru, esp. on Match Day when a program can go unmatched.

That being said there are students at "lower-tier" schools who bust out of their shell and set themselves apart from their peers (not just academics) that they've earned their stripes to be among the top. This can be easily seen on match lists.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Going to a lower tier school won't hurt you even at Hopkins Ophtho. Hopkins Ophtho can afford to be pickier in what they want in their residents due to specialty and institution name.

I dont understand... You said it won't hurt at even Hopkins going to a low tier school, then you said Hopkins CAN afford to be pickier... Which one is it?

 

[CherryRedDracul]

228 is kind of high ...What is the standard deviation? Is 240-245 a good score for neurosurgery or ortho? Can an AMG from a low tier school match into neurosurg/ortho?

Standard deviation was 21. That score range should still be good for neurosurg and ortho. As for the last question, yes, of course. Happens all the time.

 

[KinasePro]

Keep your jimmies un-rustled, OP.

There are spreadsheets floating around on the interwebs for recent matches in ENT, urology, ortho, and even plastics (i think) that show pretty standard step scores in matched applicants. 260+ is still very thin air in those specialties, and there is a sizeable number of upper 230's and lower 240's matching.

You can look at AAMC careers in medicine for recent step scores from 2012-2013, nothing shocking to see.

Yes the average is creeping up, but we're talking ~5 points over the last 5 application cycles, roughly. Nothing to lose sleep over. You still want to shoot for 250+, and if you kick ass in M1/M2 and hit the step 1 resources hard, you can definitely score in that range.

EDIT: Also, if there is any noteworthy trend to note, IMO it's that people are starting to value lifestyle even more than in past cycles. A lot of the high step scores + AOA end up applying to psych, peds, and gas based on my anecdotal experience at my school. The competitive fields that are getting moreso appear to be ophtho, urology, and ENT. Nsurg, ortho, vascular, CT, and plastics are steady and possibly even declining in competitiveness. Pure conjecture tho on my part, no hard numbers to back this up.

 

[DermViser]

Keep your jimmies un-rustled, OP.

There are spreadsheets floating around on the interwebs for recent matches in ENT, urology, ortho, and even plastics (i think) that show pretty standard step scores in matched applicants. 260+ is still very thin air in those specialties, and there is a sizeable number of upper 230's and lower 240's matching.

You can look at AAMC careers in medicine for recent step scores from 2012-2013, nothing shocking to see.

Yes the average is creeping up, but we're talking ~5 points over the last 5 application cycles, roughly. Nothing to lose sleep over. You still want to shoot for 250+, and if you kick ass in M1/M2 and hit the step 1 resources hard, you can definitely score in that range.

🙄

 

[KinasePro]

🙄

I know its probably an unpopular opinion, but I think that if you do what it takes you can score in that range more often then not. Clearly it doesn't work for everyone, but if you're on point in M1/M2 AND have a productive study session, you're in great shape. The problem is that a lot of people are missing the performance in M1/M2, and only kick into gear during step 1 prep.

 

[PL198]

I know its probably an unpopular opinion, but I think that if you do what it takes you can score in that range more often then not. Clearly it doesn't work for everyone, but if you're on point in M1/M2 AND have a productive study session, you're in great shape. The problem is that a lot of people are missing the performance in M1/M2, and only kick into gear during step 1 prep.

He was saying that it's child's play and that his 280 was laughing at you, not that it was too hard. jk i have no clue but that's my derm joke of the day

 

[DermViser]

He was saying that it's child's play and that his 280 was laughing at you, not that it was too hard. jk i have no clue but that's my derm joke of the day

I was actually saying to say that if one aces MS-1/MS-2 and hits Step 1 resources hard that you'll definitely get a 250 is a huge exaggeration.

 

[DermViser]

I dont understand... You said it won't hurt at even Hopkins going to a low tier school, then you said Hopkins CAN afford to be pickier... Which one is it?

What I said was that being at Hopkins for residency and coming from a lower tier school won't put you at a disadvantage educationally.

 

[PL198]

I was actually saying to say that if one aces MS-1/MS-2 and hits Step 1 resources hard that you'll definitely get a 250 is a huge exaggeration.

Yeah that's what I thought, but being in derm it's much more fun to change things around and shake it up a little.

BRB NOT SLEEPING UNTIL I GET 290

 

[Greenberg702]

What I said was that being at Hopkins for residency and coming from a lower tier school won't put you at a disadvantage educationally.

Ohh. Of course not, I agree. The real problem is matching there.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Ohh. Of course not, I agree. The real problem is matching there.

👍

I interviewed at some "top" ENT programs last year. There were a few times where I was the only person in the interviewee room that was from "University of State" (obviously not U of M, UCSF).

 

[3rdarmageddon]

👍

I interviewed at some "top" ENT programs last year. There were a few times where I was the only person in the interviewee room that was from "University of State" (obviously not U of M, UCSF).

Hey, UVA has a decent rep. as well.

 

[Wordead]

Hey, UVA has a decent rep. as well.

Oh what area of ENT is their strength?

 

[Greenberg702]

Hey, UVA has a decent rep. as well.

I'd probably put UCLA/UCSD above them.

 

[alpinism]

I was actually saying to say that if one aces MS-1/MS-2 and hits Step 1 resources hard that you'll definitely get a 250 is a huge exaggeration.

Just my opinion, but I 'd have to agree. Saying that anyone can get a 250+ if they study hard enough is like saying anyone can get a 36 MCAT.

It takes a ton of hard work and test taking ability for most med students to even get above a 230.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

From what I gather, many programs are allocating more step 1 study time as well. I was surprised to learn that the medical school where I train gives medical students 2 months to study for step 1. On the interview trail, many applicants reported study periods of this length. Sounds horrible, actually. I remember having 5 weeks when I did it 2 years ago, which was adequate for my purposes. The extra time devoted could account for the score creep.

 

[sinombre]

From what I gather, many programs are allocating more step 1 study time as well. I was surprised to learn that the medical school where I train gives medical students 2 months to study for step 1. On the interview trail, many applicants reported study periods of this length. Sounds horrible, actually. I remember having 5 weeks when I did it 2 years ago, which was adequate for my purposes. The extra time devoted could account for the score creep.

Yep, and schools are incorporating review courses into their curricula.

 

[medstudent7860]

I think deep down we all want a guarantee. We put in so much time, effort, and money into this, and we want to be absolutely sure we match into what we want in an area that will make us happy. Step 1 is a one-shot deal that can put us over the edge, instead of years of slogging through putting out research and getting good med school grades. People want to be able to rely on their step score to carry them rather than all that other stuff that requires even more effort.

Well, it depends. For example, at my school, answers are passed down from older students. Students cheat and get great grades. 4.0's are common. I refuse to be a part of the cheating. My gpa is average because I put in a lot of work unlike my peers who are AOA. However, their Step 1 scores are lower than mine. I understand that Step 1 is a one-shot deal but at the same time, at least it provides a standardized way to compare students at different schools/environments.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

^Well, that would do it. Not a bad idea, really. I have always preferred self study, but it was probably brought about by medical student request. It appears to be working.

 

[alpinism]

To answer to OPs question, your step 1 score is only one part of your overall residency application strength.

Whether or not your score is competitive depends on a number of other factors including school reputation, clinical grades, AOA, research, etc...

The best way to know if your score is competitive would be to look at charting the outcomes and find the average score for matched applicants in that field. Since the latest one is from 2011 when the step 1 average was 226, I'd add at least couple points to the average score.

Assuming you come from an average MD school with average grades and research, you'd want to be within 10 points of the average, in which case your application won't be screened out at most programs. This is because many residency programs use step 1 as an initial screen when evaluating applications.

Take Anesthesiology for example. In 2011 the average was 226. Let's say its 228 in 2014. If you can get a 218+ score and are willing to apply broadly, you should a great shot at matching somewhere (It may not be your top choice though).

The highest average in 2011 was plastic surgery at 249. So its probably around a 251 now. In that case you'd want a 241+ to have a competitive score.

Excluding Plastics and Dermatology, all other specialties have averages at 245 or below. As a result, if you have a 235+ score you should be competitive for nearly every specialty.

 

[StIGMA]

To answer to OPs question, your step 1 score is only one part of your overall residency application strength.

Whether or not your score is competitive depends on a number of other factors including school reputation, clinical grades, AOA, research, etc...

The best way to know if your score is competitive would be to look at charting the outcomes and find the average score for matched applicants in that field. Since the latest one is from 2011 when the step 1 average was 226, I'd add at least couple points to the average score.

Assuming you come from an average MD school with average grades and research, you'd want to be within 10 points of the average, in which case your application won't be screened out at most programs. This is because many residency programs use step 1 as an initial screen when evaluating applications.

Take Anesthesiology for example. In 2011 the average was 226. Let's say its 228 in 2014. If you can get a 218+ score and are willing to apply broadly, you should a great shot at matching somewhere (It may not be your top choice though).

The highest average in 2011 was plastic surgery at 249. So its probably around a 251 now. In that case you'd want a 241+ to have a competitive score.

Excluding Plastics and Dermatology, all other specialties have averages at 245 or below. As a result, if you have a 235+ score you should be competitive for nearly every specialty.

Something to consider: the 226 is the average matched score from US senior applicants who probably took the test in 2009. If you include matched independent applicants, the average is 224. The mean step 1 score at this time was no higher than 221 or so.

For a 228 step 1 average (which includes failures and people who will not match), the mean step 1 for matched US seniors will likely be in the low 230 range.

Regarding score inflation, the mean was 221 on a the step 1 score report from early/mid 2011. I'm shocked if the mean changed from 221 to 228 in 3 years.

 

[sazerac]

Regarding score inflation, the mean was 221 on a the step 1 score report from early/mid 2011. I'm shocked if the mean changed from 221 to 228 in 3 years.

That's the Pathoma effect. We are all measurably smarter than the 2011 students. But since everybody's score jumped, we are not any more competitive than pre-Pathoma.

 

[DermViser]

Just my opinion, but I 'd have to agree. Saying that anyone can get a 250+ if they study hard enough is like saying anyone can get a 36 MCAT.

It takes a ton of hard work and test taking ability for most med students to even get above a 230.

👍👍
I don't get this "anyone can get a 250+ on Step 1 if they work hard enough" theme that's popped up. A score of 250 is already 1.5 standard deviations above the mean (usually 240 is deemed 1 standard deviation above, and 260 is 2 standard deviations above).

 

[Longhorn16]

the standard deviation this year was 21, so a 250 is just about 1 standard deviation above. not sure if that's different from the past!